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Posted: 1/11/2014 7:43:41 AM EDT
[#1]
It's a thing a beauty, but no way I'd spend $7k on it.
They've always made some nice (expensive) stuff. |
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Posted: 1/11/2014 7:44:11 AM EDT
[#2]
SABCO makes some good stuff. |
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Posted: 1/11/2014 11:11:10 AM EDT
[#3]
Waaaaaay too expensive for what it is. You can build your own for a third of that. Mine cost me about $800 to build and its repeatability is great.
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Posted: 1/11/2014 1:18:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Is this your test batch system? I assume you aren't going to try and use a 10 gallon system for a brewpub, you'll be doing 2 brews a day, 7 days a week to keep up.
If that's what you are looking for, check out the blichmann engineering boilermaker kettles that can get you 100 gallons. |
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Posted: 1/11/2014 5:30:47 PM EDT
[#5]
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Is this your test batch system? I assume you aren't going to try and use a 10 gallon system for a brewpub, you'll be doing 2 brews a day, 7 days a week to keep up. If that's what you are looking for, check out the blichmann engineering boilermaker kettles that can get you 100 gallons. This will be our system until we decide we need to be bigger. I can provide the labor and the facility. |
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Posted: 1/11/2014 5:41:09 PM EDT
[#6]
My thought is get in touch with these guys. They are local to me and until recently were using small batch systems like the one you posted. They are super nice guys who make great beer.
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Posted: 1/11/2014 6:24:53 PM EDT
[#7]
I guess you have some idea of how much beer you think you can sell per week and how much time you want to spend brewing. How much is your time worth? Aside from cleaning and milling, the brewing process takes about the same time no matter what the batch size is, providing you have the thermal input for the HLT and brew kettle. A 10 gallon batch with that will give you four cases of beer for 3 to 4 hours of your time. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 8:31:40 AM EDT
[#8]
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I guess you have some idea of how much beer you think you can sell per week and how much time you want to spend brewing. How much is your time worth? Aside from cleaning and milling, the brewing process takes about the same time no matter what the batch size is, providing you have the thermal input for the HLT and brew kettle. A 10 gallon batch with that will give you four cases of beer for 3 to 4 hours of your time. Any ideas on a larger system with the same features and simplicity? |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 9:40:41 AM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 1/12/2014 10:46:38 AM EDT
[#10]
Thanks Waldo. I'm also looking at the ruby street brewing alpha system. I think I can get into a one bbl system with all the accessories for under 20k. I'm not afraid to upgrade systems in a few years if I need to.
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Posted: 1/12/2014 11:12:59 AM EDT
[#11]
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Thanks Waldo. I'm also looking at the ruby street brewing alpha system. I think I can get into a one bbl system with all the accessories for under 20k. I'm not afraid to upgrade systems in a few years if I need to. I think you should hang around on the various pro brewer forums for a while, ask a lot of questions before you make that leap. Something like that takes a lot of capital and it won't work on a small scale. You have to be able to brew a beer at a price point that people will be willing to pay and that you can make a profit at, otherwise it's not worth doing. That's a pretty big hill to climb, especially if you have no following for the beers you brew. That takes some work, thankless work at that. Ask yourself an honest question. What's the most you would pay for a bottle or glass of beer and work the numbers backwards. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 11:45:24 AM EDT
[#12]
Thought of this thread... not mine but figured the OP would like to see whats out there... turn key nano brewery for $2.2K
http://dubuque.craigslist.org/for/4282339239.html |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 1:07:07 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thought of this thread... not mine but figured the OP would like to see whats out there... turn key nano brewery for $2.2K
http://dubuque.craigslist.org/for/4282339239.html Called the guy and it's sold. I'd have probably bought that thing. 
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Posted: 1/12/2014 1:48:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Pretend you are looking at yourself in the mirror instead of talking to me here. Convince me that you can turn a profit brewing beer. Believe me, I've thought about it. I can throw a hundred grand into it and just don't see it. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 1:59:08 PM EDT
[#15]
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Called the guy and it's sold. I'd have probably bought that thing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thought of this thread... not mine but figured the OP would like to see whats out there... turn key nano brewery for $2.2K
http://dubuque.craigslist.org/for/4282339239.html Called the guy and it's sold. I'd have probably bought that thing. so sorry man.
With a little patience you can build a brewery on a shoestring. Start hitting the scrapyards in the area on a weekly basis for stainless vessels, etc. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 3:08:49 PM EDT
[#16]
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Pretend you are looking at yourself in the mirror instead of talking to me here. Convince me that you can turn a profit brewing beer. Believe me, I've thought about it. I can throw a hundred grand into it and just don't see it. You're looking at it as a stand alone brewery. It will be a minor upgrade to a farm winery. The expensive part is the building. If I've got $250,000 spent on a winery, it seems like a very small investment to add $20k for a complete system to add micro brews. We're putting all the numbers together for a board that we're a part of. None of the numbers are huge secrets, so when I get everything organized into a simple sheet I'll post it here. I'd agree completely that a micro brewery couldn't stand on it's own here. Not a chance at all. I'm looking at the brewery as a secondary enterprise that isn't the primary income generator. That's why I'm trying to keep it small and not get into a 3 bbl system or anything that's going to eat up a bunch of cash. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 3:19:25 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're looking at it as a stand alone brewery. It will be a minor upgrade to a farm winery. The expensive part is the building. If I've got $250,000 spent on a winery, it seems like a very small investment to add $20k for a complete system to add micro brews. We're putting all the numbers together for a board that we're a part of. None of the numbers are huge secrets, so when I get everything organized into a simple sheet I'll post it here. I'd agree completely that a micro brewery couldn't stand on it's own here. Not a chance at all. I'm looking at the brewery as a secondary enterprise that isn't the primary income generator. That's why I'm trying to keep it small and not get into a 3 bbl system or anything that's going to eat up a bunch of cash. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Pretend you are looking at yourself in the mirror instead of talking to me here. Convince me that you can turn a profit brewing beer. Believe me, I've thought about it. I can throw a hundred grand into it and just don't see it. You're looking at it as a stand alone brewery. It will be a minor upgrade to a farm winery. The expensive part is the building. If I've got $250,000 spent on a winery, it seems like a very small investment to add $20k for a complete system to add micro brews. We're putting all the numbers together for a board that we're a part of. None of the numbers are huge secrets, so when I get everything organized into a simple sheet I'll post it here. I'd agree completely that a micro brewery couldn't stand on it's own here. Not a chance at all. I'm looking at the brewery as a secondary enterprise that isn't the primary income generator. That's why I'm trying to keep it small and not get into a 3 bbl system or anything that's going to eat up a bunch of cash. I don't think you can do anything on 20 grand unless you want to have beer as a loss leader for your winery. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 3:25:16 PM EDT
[#18]
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I don't think you can do anything on 20 grand unless you want to have beer as a loss leader for your winery. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Pretend you are looking at yourself in the mirror instead of talking to me here. Convince me that you can turn a profit brewing beer. Believe me, I've thought about it. I can throw a hundred grand into it and just don't see it. You're looking at it as a stand alone brewery. It will be a minor upgrade to a farm winery. The expensive part is the building. If I've got $250,000 spent on a winery, it seems like a very small investment to add $20k for a complete system to add micro brews. We're putting all the numbers together for a board that we're a part of. None of the numbers are huge secrets, so when I get everything organized into a simple sheet I'll post it here. I'd agree completely that a micro brewery couldn't stand on it's own here. Not a chance at all. I'm looking at the brewery as a secondary enterprise that isn't the primary income generator. That's why I'm trying to keep it small and not get into a 3 bbl system or anything that's going to eat up a bunch of cash. I don't think you can do anything on 20 grand unless you want to have beer as a loss leader for your winery. Not sure if it would be a loss leader, but it would definitely help to keep people in the winery. I just talked to a guy earlier today that is building semi-automatic 1 bbl systems that would be just under $6k. I really like the Sabco kegs and fermenters and would use them. Figure ten kegs and 5 fermenters and you're looking at $3700 and $2500 respectively. I'll put all the numbers together this week and run them by you guys. I appreciate the help and the input. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 3:32:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Go back and start from the beginning. How much can you sell a glass of (or bottle) of beer for? Work those numbers backwards. I'm sitting on a pile of cash and I don't see it. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 3:44:57 PM EDT
[#20]
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Go back and start from the beginning. How much can you sell a glass of (or bottle) of beer for? Work those numbers backwards. I'm sitting on a pile of cash and I don't see it. $3.50/ pint is on the low end in our area. Domestics are $2.50. That would be the worst case number. Let's figure 225 pours at $3.50/ and you've got about $780/barrel. Assuming the low end of sales at 30 bbls/year to begin with and you're looking at a gross income of $23,625. Labor is going to be shared with the winery and would be tough to break out, but call it $10k. The winery is also going to sell wood fired pizza and these products all tend to stack onto each other and compliment one another. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 3:57:55 PM EDT
[#21]
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$3.50/ pint That's pretty optimistic. What makes you think that you can brew a beer that demands that sort of money? Let's pretend you're asking me for money, just for the fun of it. It really doesn't matter, but let's pretend. It's your money after all. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 4:15:15 PM EDT
[#22]
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That's pretty optimistic. What makes you think that you can brew a beer that demands that sort of money? Let's pretend you're asking me for money, just for the fun of it. It really doesn't matter, but let's pretend. It's your money after all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
$3.50/ pint That's pretty optimistic. What makes you think that you can brew a beer that demands that sort of money? Let's pretend you're asking me for money, just for the fun of it. It really doesn't matter, but let's pretend. It's your money after all. There is no guarantee that I can do it. But I am not the type of person that fails because I didn't do my homework. We are a year out on this project and while I spend a lot of time here, Several hours a day are spent learning about the business, researching numbers and trying to figure it all out. Before we do anything significant, we'll have a complete business plan, 5 and 10 year goals, cash flow, debt schedule and a couple others I can't pull off the top of my head right now. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 4:23:51 PM EDT
[#23]
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There is no guarantee that I can do it. But I am not the type of person that fails because I didn't do my homework. We are a year out on this project and while I spend a lot of time here, Several hours a day are spent learning about the business, researching numbers and trying to figure it all out. Before we do anything significant, we'll have a complete business plan, 5 and 10 year goals, cash flow, debt schedule and a couple others I can't pull off the top of my head right now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
$3.50/ pint That's pretty optimistic. What makes you think that you can brew a beer that demands that sort of money? Let's pretend you're asking me for money, just for the fun of it. It really doesn't matter, but let's pretend. It's your money after all. There is no guarantee that I can do it. But I am not the type of person that fails because I didn't do my homework. We are a year out on this project and while I spend a lot of time here, Several hours a day are spent learning about the business, researching numbers and trying to figure it all out. Before we do anything significant, we'll have a complete business plan, 5 and 10 year goals, cash flow, debt schedule and a couple others I can't pull off the top of my head right now. You still have to be able to brew a drinkable beer. Can you do it? |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 4:35:11 PM EDT
[#24]
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You still have to be able to brew a drinkable beer. Can you do it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
Quoted:
$3.50/ pint That's pretty optimistic. What makes you think that you can brew a beer that demands that sort of money? Let's pretend you're asking me for money, just for the fun of it. It really doesn't matter, but let's pretend. It's your money after all. There is no guarantee that I can do it. But I am not the type of person that fails because I didn't do my homework. We are a year out on this project and while I spend a lot of time here, Several hours a day are spent learning about the business, researching numbers and trying to figure it all out. Before we do anything significant, we'll have a complete business plan, 5 and 10 year goals, cash flow, debt schedule and a couple others I can't pull off the top of my head right now. You still have to be able to brew a drinkable beer. Can you do it? And a very good wine. I love the art and science of fermentation and am now learning the brewing side. We've been making wine for a couple years and giving tons of it away. We have people begging to buy wine from us now. We don't let them, but that's the kind of thing I want and it's why I give it away. I will never let anyone have a bad wine or a bad beer that I've made. I recently over-oaked a Seyval and dumped 6 gallons of it out. I will never sacrifice quality for a quick dollar. My name and reputation are worth more than that. This is also why I want to start brewing all grain now. I want to figure out what we'll have, get some good beer out there and build our name. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 4:39:36 PM EDT
[#25]
As always, I wish you the best of luck. My input is just to temper your expectations a bit as I'd hate to see you fall on your face. 
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Posted: 1/12/2014 4:40:12 PM EDT
[#26]
What General part of Nebraska are you in?
Eta:the reason I ask is what is your target audience and will the population density support an establishment such as yours?
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Posted: 1/12/2014 5:55:15 PM EDT
[#27]
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What General part of Nebraska are you in? Eta:the reason I ask is what is your target audience and will the population density support an establishment such as yours? When we set out on the winery expedition we spent a lot of time going and visiting other local wineries. Each successful winery told us to get busy planning and to go out and make great wine. The wineries here that have been unsuccessful were those that didn't focus on quality and that were willing to sell poorly made wine. I've spent the last two years working with a couple wineries and taking classes to improve my winemaking. We are 6 miles off of US-81 and while we are located in a fairly rural area, the people around here are very accustomed to driving 30 miles for an evening out. It's just how things are here. In a 25 mile diameter we have 30,000 people. In a 50 mile there are 300,000. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 6:12:52 PM EDT
[#28]
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As always, I wish you the best of luck. My input is just to temper your expectations a bit as I'd hate to see you fall on your face. I'm a part of a business mgt. board. There are five businesses on our board and we act as the board of directors for each others businesses. We meet for 3 days, 3 times a year. These are the type of discussions we have at those meetings. We actually have one coming up the end of Feb and this issue will be front and center. We'll have our numbers and a business plan put together for that meeting. We have the nuts and bolts somewhat gathered up now, but it's not in any easily accessed form. The group is there to challenge your ideas, push the paradigm and to help sort out the numbers. We hold each other accountable and without that group we'd still be stuck in a mediocre cattle business. |
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Posted: 1/12/2014 8:29:30 PM EDT
[#29]
you'll need to factor in advertising if you want any tourists. i've bought wine at roadside wineries before and have gotten some really good product. TBS, you'll need some really killer pizza to go with your stuff as well.i saw that was part of your plan. have you been here?:
http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/ i may have a little better handle on your demographics than others, having spent some time in the northern plains. it's so far to anywhere anyway, a 50 mile drive for a killer good time is pretty common. i think it would work if everything comes together. the one thing i've always thought of when considering a restaurant is the advice my banker gave me once: the best way to make a small fortune in the restaurant business is to start with a large one.
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Posted: 1/12/2014 10:18:34 PM EDT
[#30]
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This is also why I want to start brewing all grain now. Well, I think once you start, you'll have a better understanding of what I'm talking about. I haven't done it because I have no desire to take my $100,000 and turn it into $30,000 
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Posted: 1/13/2014 2:40:19 AM EDT
[#31]
OP I have another resource for you: Brewstong podcasts
They have a few on the series called "Going Pro" with each broke down into sections like equipment, marketing, permits, brewery type, etc. Look on pages 3-4 and dates range from 7-9-12 to 12-24-12. Good luck 
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Posted: 1/13/2014 10:10:42 PM EDT
[#32]
I didn't see you were posting in here as well.
Sounds like you don't know how to make beer. As I've made both wine and beer professionally ill tell you they are completely different. Waaaaayyy different. In almost every respect. Yeast is the only connector and even then it's just different. It's way harder to make good beer then wine. I keep writing out these big long explanations of how its different and harder. I can't really explain it well. I'll just say a love of fermentation and the science of it won't get you very far. I might be biased, having made wine before I have no respect for it. I love brewing. |
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Posted: 1/14/2014 6:01:44 AM EDT
[#33]
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I didn't see you were posting in here as well. Sounds like you don't know how to make beer. As I've made both wine and beer professionally ill tell you they are completely different. Waaaaayyy different. In almost every respect. Yeast is the only connector and even then it's just different. It's way harder to make good beer then wine. I keep writing out these big long explanations of how its different and harder. I can't really explain it well. I'll just say a love of fermentation and the science of it won't get you very far. I might be biased, having made wine before I have no respect for it. I love brewing. I have done a few extract brews, never an all grain. I'm willing to do some immersion in it and we've got a year. I will be a long ways off from being a legitimate great brewer by that time, but I think if we stick with some easier recipes I might be able to make it work. I understand that I'm taking a significant risk with these ideas. That's kind of a big part of who I am. I'm also pretty good and making things work. |
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Posted: 1/14/2014 12:23:30 PM EDT
[#34]
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I have done a few extract brews, never an all grain. I'm willing to do some immersion in it and we've got a year. I will be a long ways off from being a legitimate great brewer by that time, but I think if we stick with some easier recipes I might be able to make it work. I understand that I'm taking a significant risk with these ideas. That's kind of a big part of who I am. I'm also pretty good and making things work. I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. You've never brewed all grain before. That's fine. We all started there. It's a pretty big leap to go from that to brewing and selling a craft brew that someone is willing to pay decent money for in a year. It might be a better idea to put a few commercial craft brews on tap, see how that goes. In the meantime, you can get your feet wet brewing on a small scale. Sure, you can follow a recipe, but there's a lot of understanding why things happen that needs to be learned. Experience goes a long way. I'll tell you something about people that say your beer is decent. A good percentage of them will drink anything that is free and tell you that as long as it keeps coming. 
Put some free commercial beers out there next to your own free brews, keep your mouth shut, and then see how that goes.
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Posted: 1/14/2014 12:57:27 PM EDT
[#35]
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I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. You've never brewed all grain before. That's fine. We all started there. It's a pretty big leap to go from that to brewing and selling a craft brew that someone is willing to pay decent money for in a year. It might be a better idea to put a few commercial craft brews on tap, see how that goes. In the meantime, you can get your feet wet brewing on a small scale. Sure, you can follow a recipe, but there's a lot of understanding why things happen that needs to be learned. Experience goes a long way. I'll tell you something about people that say your beer is decent. A good percentage of them will drink anything that is free and tell you that as long as it keeps coming.
Put some free commercial beers out there next to your own free brews, keep your mouth shut, and then see how that goes.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have done a few extract brews, never an all grain. I'm willing to do some immersion in it and we've got a year. I will be a long ways off from being a legitimate great brewer by that time, but I think if we stick with some easier recipes I might be able to make it work. I understand that I'm taking a significant risk with these ideas. That's kind of a big part of who I am. I'm also pretty good and making things work. I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. You've never brewed all grain before. That's fine. We all started there. It's a pretty big leap to go from that to brewing and selling a craft brew that someone is willing to pay decent money for in a year. It might be a better idea to put a few commercial craft brews on tap, see how that goes. In the meantime, you can get your feet wet brewing on a small scale. Sure, you can follow a recipe, but there's a lot of understanding why things happen that needs to be learned. Experience goes a long way. I'll tell you something about people that say your beer is decent. A good percentage of them will drink anything that is free and tell you that as long as it keeps coming.
Put some free commercial beers out there next to your own free brews, keep your mouth shut, and then see how that goes.
I know I'm probably way over my head. I appreciate your advice and realize that I will not be brewing or selling great beer for a few years. I should start a thread about the start up of the business. I've trickled out info here and there and no one knows all the details and that's my fault. One of the reasons for the microbrewery is to be able to be licensed to sell other brews and spirits. Without the microbrewery the state commission doesn't want to give us the general liquor license. This really needs it's own thread. I've jumbled too much info out in an incoherent way. |
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Posted: 1/14/2014 2:06:01 PM EDT
[#36]
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One of the reasons for the microbrewery is to be able to be licensed to sell other brews and spirits. Without the microbrewery the state commission doesn't want to give us the general liquor license. Yeah, I can see that. You might want to hire someone to brew for you under your license for a while until you come up to speed. I'm probably one of the few people that brew that have no aspirations of opening a brewery. I'm done working. I don't have to. I don't want to take something I enjoy and turn it into a job either
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Posted: 1/14/2014 6:16:55 PM EDT
[#37]
do we need nominations for your beer-tasting panel?
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Posted: 1/14/2014 6:26:07 PM EDT
[#38]
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do we need nominations for your beer-tasting panel? Show up and be honest is all that is required. I actually tell everyone that drinks anything I make that I'd rather hear something they don't like than if they just tell me it's good. Beer and winemakers need honest friends. |
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Posted: 1/14/2014 6:59:10 PM EDT
[#39]
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Show up and be honest is all that is required. I actually tell everyone that drinks anything I make that I'd rather hear something they don't like than if they just tell me it's good. Beer and winemakers need honest friends. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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do we need nominations for your beer-tasting panel? Show up and be honest is all that is required. I actually tell everyone that drinks anything I make that I'd rather hear something they don't like than if they just tell me it's good. Beer and winemakers need honest friends. You could also submit your beers to be judged. Quite a few local home brew shops have an annual beer judging contests with BJCP. The BJCP style guidelines are a bit behind the times, but you should try to brew a few styles and submit them. You'll get a critique back on them from someone you don't know.
http://www.bjcp.org/stylecenter.php |
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Posted: 1/14/2014 7:27:38 PM EDT
[#40]
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You could also submit your beers to be judged. Quite a few local home brew shops have an annual beer judging contests with BJCP. The BJCP style guidelines are a bit behind the times, but you should try to brew a few styles and submit them. You'll get a critique back on them from someone you don't know.
http://www.bjcp.org/stylecenter.php Quote HistoryQuoted:
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do we need nominations for your beer-tasting panel? Show up and be honest is all that is required. I actually tell everyone that drinks anything I make that I'd rather hear something they don't like than if they just tell me it's good. Beer and winemakers need honest friends. You could also submit your beers to be judged. Quite a few local home brew shops have an annual beer judging contests with BJCP. The BJCP style guidelines are a bit behind the times, but you should try to brew a few styles and submit them. You'll get a critique back on them from someone you don't know.
http://www.bjcp.org/stylecenter.php That may be the best link I've gotten on this site. Thanks. I'm not afraid of criticism. |
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Posted: 1/15/2014 3:41:51 AM EDT
[#41]
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Show up and be honest is all that is required. I actually tell everyone that drinks anything I make that I'd rather hear something they don't like than if they just tell me it's good. Beer and winemakers need honest friends. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
do we need nominations for your beer-tasting panel? Show up and be honest is all that is required. I actually tell everyone that drinks anything I make that I'd rather hear something they don't like than if they just tell me it's good. Beer and winemakers need honest friends. I know where a few testers will be in a couple of months  don't pour anything out
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Posted: 1/15/2014 6:30:43 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Show up and be honest is all that is required. I actually tell everyone that drinks anything I make that I'd rather hear something they don't like than if they just tell me it's good. Beer and winemakers need honest friends. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: do we need nominations for your beer-tasting panel? Show up and be honest is all that is required. I actually tell everyone that drinks anything I make that I'd rather hear something they don't like than if they just tell me it's good. Beer and winemakers need honest friends. |
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Posted: 1/15/2014 6:06:40 PM EDT
[#43]
Went and met with the big winery/brewery in Nebraska today. Learned a ton and found out that Waldo was right. I need a 3 bbl system.
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Posted: 1/18/2014 5:18:21 AM EDT
[#44]
Great thread here, think Lucky Bucket since you're in Nebraska. They've got quite a business going. You CAN do this.
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Posted: 2/5/2014 12:38:24 PM EDT
[#45]
There's also the Speidel Braumeister system. They make a 200 and 500 liter system and have a US distributor. It's more of an automated system which might not be what you're looking for.
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Posted: 2/5/2014 1:05:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's also the Speidel Braumeister system. They make a 200 and 500 liter system and have a US distributor. It's more of an automated system which might not be what you're looking for. My problem with them is that it's all one system. One pump goes out and you're done. Otherwise they look like a pretty simple deal. |
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