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Link Posted: 5/14/2016 2:06:28 PM EDT
[#1]
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Converting to SI, N needs to be used, not kg. All units need to be in the correct form.

When using psi and slug the velocity will be in inches, which is why you need to divide by 12 to get to ft/s instead of in/s.  slugs are in lb ft/s^2, it should be converted into newtons as it is in kg m/s^2.  He was at least able to convert the pressures and lengths correctly (you can straight google calculators for that), but then stopped after that and decided getting the slug conversion wasn't important. Slugs goes to N to preserve correct units - you then get an answer in m/s. That answer matches what I original posted it to be.

OP keeps doing stuff that is analogous to "10 minutes * 1.5 blueberries/bucket = 15 chimichangas s^2  - Yall are dumb, clearly 10*1.5 = 15"  ignoring the fact that the equation itself is nonsensical because the units are all fucked up.
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His velocity number is correct given the numbers he shows in the quoted post.  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here- kg is the SI unit of mass. His m/s -> ft/s conversion is correct also.


Converting to SI, N needs to be used, not kg. All units need to be in the correct form.

When using psi and slug the velocity will be in inches, which is why you need to divide by 12 to get to ft/s instead of in/s.  slugs are in lb ft/s^2, it should be converted into newtons as it is in kg m/s^2.  He was at least able to convert the pressures and lengths correctly (you can straight google calculators for that), but then stopped after that and decided getting the slug conversion wasn't important. Slugs goes to N to preserve correct units - you then get an answer in m/s. That answer matches what I original posted it to be.

OP keeps doing stuff that is analogous to "10 minutes * 1.5 blueberries/bucket = 15 chimichangas s^2  - Yall are dumb, clearly 10*1.5 = 15"  ignoring the fact that the equation itself is nonsensical because the units are all fucked up.


I'll admit that I've only glanced over the OP's conversions (non-SI units make my eyes bleed).  That being said, slugs are a unit of mass, analogous to kg, and are actually in base units of (lb*s^2/ft).  Pounds are a unit of force (e.g., weight), analogous to Newtons.  There are a couple of unholy units (lbm and kgf) that go the other way, but they are almost never used.
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 2:21:47 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:


It's not the psi quantization that's the issue, I'm worried about the quantization of the small voltage that he will see across the Wheatstone bridge. He's going to be measuring very small strain, which without some moderately thoughtful amplification and use of a proper reference voltage on the ADC will end up causing problems.

Reading through the datasheet again, Atmel quotes a +/- 2 LSB accuracy and 1 LSB integral nonlinearity on their ADC.  My suspicion is that this applies only when using the 5v Vcc supply as reference.  Atmel even recommends a bunch of wacky shit in the datasheet to improve SNR (shutting down the CPU during a conversion, etc).
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snip

As to OP, I answered that already. Make sure you sample at Nyquist rate. Anything in the past 2 decades is capable of this. Shouldnt cost you more than 20 bucks for everything.  Any arduino is more than capable of this, strain gauges are dirt cheap.


The Arduino could maybe sample at the right rate (does that ADC have a fast mode?  Can't remember).  Problem with those is that the noise floor, especially when running fast, is absolutely balls, and is compounded by the ADC's 12 10 bit resolution.

I've used some cheap but high-quality IC bridge drivers from TI before, but I can't for the life of me remember what they were.  Ran em off the 5v bus on a hacked-up USB joystick .  Still, even those things have a shitload of internal filtering to get the noise down.  That might screw with the sampling rates he needs.


Even total junk arduinos can sample at ~ 10 kHz. 10 bits for ~ 4500 psi... yeah that, more than enough resolution. That's 4 psi quantization bins.

Or he could snag a raspberry pi or a yard sale Oscope. I would personaly go Oscope - there are some badassed solutions that piggyback off of your Android based phone that give Mhz sampling rates and the full capabilities of a lab level scope.


It's not the psi quantization that's the issue, I'm worried about the quantization of the small voltage that he will see across the Wheatstone bridge. He's going to be measuring very small strain, which without some moderately thoughtful amplification and use of a proper reference voltage on the ADC will end up causing problems.

Reading through the datasheet again, Atmel quotes a +/- 2 LSB accuracy and 1 LSB integral nonlinearity on their ADC.  My suspicion is that this applies only when using the 5v Vcc supply as reference.  Atmel even recommends a bunch of wacky shit in the datasheet to improve SNR (shutting down the CPU during a conversion, etc).


Step up 10 bucks for a better controller or dedicated ADC?

The bigger issue is building a full bridge strain gauge circuit in the 1st place, instead of just tapping a pressure transducer. Or hell, even just tapping 2-3 check valved pressure gauges. Any measurement loss can easily be calculated... well, easier for some folks.  and no electronics, circuits, or code to mess up.


Link Posted: 5/14/2016 2:30:13 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:


I'll admit that I've only glanced over the OP's conversions (non-SI units make my eyes bleed). That being said, slugs are a unit of mass, analogous to kg, and are actually in base units of (lb*s^2/ft).  Pounds are a unit of force (e.g., weight), analogous to Newtons.  There are a couple of unholy units (lbm and kgf) that go the other way, but they are almost never used.
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Quoted:

His velocity number is correct given the numbers he shows in the quoted post.  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here- kg is the SI unit of mass. His m/s -> ft/s conversion is correct also.


Converting to SI, N needs to be used, not kg. All units need to be in the correct form.

When using psi and slug the velocity will be in inches, which is why you need to divide by 12 to get to ft/s instead of in/s.  slugs are in lb ft/s^2, it should be converted into newtons as it is in kg m/s^2.  He was at least able to convert the pressures and lengths correctly (you can straight google calculators for that), but then stopped after that and decided getting the slug conversion wasn't important. Slugs goes to N to preserve correct units - you then get an answer in m/s. That answer matches what I original posted it to be.

OP keeps doing stuff that is analogous to "10 minutes * 1.5 blueberries/bucket = 15 chimichangas s^2  - Yall are dumb, clearly 10*1.5 = 15"  ignoring the fact that the equation itself is nonsensical because the units are all fucked up.


I'll admit that I've only glanced over the OP's conversions (non-SI units make my eyes bleed). That being said, slugs are a unit of mass, analogous to kg, and are actually in base units of (lb*s^2/ft).  Pounds are a unit of force (e.g., weight), analogous to Newtons.  There are a couple of unholy units (lbm and kgf) that go the other way, but they are almost never used.


That's why this thread has gone as long as it has. OP thinks you can divide twice to get acceleration or that the cubic root of a volume is just one of the original length measurements.  Lots of wtf conversions.  
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 2:30:22 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:


Step up 10 bucks for a better controller or dedicated ADC?

The bigger issue is building a full bridge strain gauge circuit in the 1st place, instead of just tapping a pressure transducer. Or hell, even just tapping 2-3 check valved pressure gauges. Any measurement loss can easily be calculated... well, easier for some folks.  and no electronics, circuits, or code to mess up.


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snip

As to OP, I answered that already. Make sure you sample at Nyquist rate. Anything in the past 2 decades is capable of this. Shouldnt cost you more than 20 bucks for everything.  Any arduino is more than capable of this, strain gauges are dirt cheap.


The Arduino could maybe sample at the right rate (does that ADC have a fast mode?  Can't remember).  Problem with those is that the noise floor, especially when running fast, is absolutely balls, and is compounded by the ADC's 12 10 bit resolution.

I've used some cheap but high-quality IC bridge drivers from TI before, but I can't for the life of me remember what they were.  Ran em off the 5v bus on a hacked-up USB joystick .  Still, even those things have a shitload of internal filtering to get the noise down.  That might screw with the sampling rates he needs.


Even total junk arduinos can sample at ~ 10 kHz. 10 bits for ~ 4500 psi... yeah that, more than enough resolution. That's 4 psi quantization bins.

Or he could snag a raspberry pi or a yard sale Oscope. I would personaly go Oscope - there are some badassed solutions that piggyback off of your Android based phone that give Mhz sampling rates and the full capabilities of a lab level scope.


It's not the psi quantization that's the issue, I'm worried about the quantization of the small voltage that he will see across the Wheatstone bridge. He's going to be measuring very small strain, which without some moderately thoughtful amplification and use of a proper reference voltage on the ADC will end up causing problems.

Reading through the datasheet again, Atmel quotes a +/- 2 LSB accuracy and 1 LSB integral nonlinearity on their ADC.  My suspicion is that this applies only when using the 5v Vcc supply as reference.  Atmel even recommends a bunch of wacky shit in the datasheet to improve SNR (shutting down the CPU during a conversion, etc).


Step up 10 bucks for a better controller or dedicated ADC?

The bigger issue is building a full bridge strain gauge circuit in the 1st place, instead of just tapping a pressure transducer. Or hell, even just tapping 2-3 check valved pressure gauges. Any measurement loss can easily be calculated... well, easier for some folks.  and no electronics, circuits, or code to mess up.




I'm thinking that's the better plan.  He can't build a true active full bridge circuit anyway: you need 2 gauges in equal compression and 2 in equal tension for that to work, at each axial location on the barrel.  He could throw some dummy gages on there to complete the bridge (making it half-active), but he may as well use fixed resistors at that point.
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 2:34:29 PM EDT
[#5]
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I'm thinking that's the better plan.  He can't build a true active full bridge circuit anyway: you need 2 gauges in equal compression and 2 in equal tension for that to work, at each axial location on the barrel.  He could throw some dummy gages on there to complete the bridge (making it half-active), but he may as well use fixed resistors at that point.
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I didnt have the heart to tell him it would take 20 strain gauges to measure 4 unique points along the barrel if building full bridge circuits. So I went with "just do the math,"  but that didnt work out so well either.
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 4:44:57 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:


I didnt have the heart to tell him it would take 20 strain gauges to measure 4 unique points along the barrel if building full bridge circuits. So I went with "just do the math,"  but that didnt work out so well either.
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I'm thinking that's the better plan.  He can't build a true active full bridge circuit anyway: you need 2 gauges in equal compression and 2 in equal tension for that to work, at each axial location on the barrel.  He could throw some dummy gages on there to complete the bridge (making it half-active), but he may as well use fixed resistors at that point.


I didnt have the heart to tell him it would take 20 strain gauges to measure 4 unique points along the barrel if building full bridge circuits. So I went with "just do the math,"  but that didnt work out so well either.


Actually, you cannot easily build a full bridge circuit when you do not have anything in compression.  Everything will be pretty much in tension.  The temperature can be compensated easily by putting everything near the barrel.  In fact the whole apparatus will be in the same room.

To balance the bridges (which is what I would do before starting, since I don't like to rely on code to do this) I would have one variable resistor, two fixed, and the gauge for each.  To amplify the signal, requires an op-amp.  I am in the process of trying to decide on which one would be best for the ADQ chip I found.   I don't care if the signal is linear or not, since I would calibrate the output with the known input.  I would then do a best fit equation in a spread sheet.

If I were bending a bar, then the full bridge would be much better as there would be more signal.  But, I am not bending a bar, I am expanding a tube radially, and slightly compressing it linearly due to Poisson's ratio.  But this compression will be offset just a little by the resistance of the projectile putting the tube in a little bit of tension. If the tube were capped, then there would be significant tension.

Now, I suppose using two gauges at 180 degrees may help give a better signal, and I may wind up doing that.
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 5:29:40 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:


Actually, you cannot easily build a full bridge circuit when you do not have anything in compression.  Everything will be pretty much in tension.  The temperature can be compensated easily by putting everything near the barrel.  In fact the whole apparatus will be in the same room.

To balance the bridges (which is what I would do before starting, since I don't like to rely on code to do this) I would have one variable resistor, two fixed, and the gauge for each.  To amplify the signal, requires an op-amp.  I am in the process of trying to decide on which one would be best for the ADQ chip I found.   I don't care if the signal is linear or not, since I would calibrate the output with the known input.  I would then do a best fit equation in a spread sheet.

If I were bending a bar, then the full bridge would be much better as there would be more signal.  But, I am not bending a bar, I am expanding a tube radially, and slightly compressing it linearly due to Poisson's ratio.  But this compression will be offset just a little by the resistance of the projectile putting the tube in a little bit of tension. If the tube were capped, then there would be significant tension.

Now, I suppose using two gauges at 180 degrees may help give a better signal, and I may wind up doing that.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

I'm thinking that's the better plan.  He can't build a true active full bridge circuit anyway: you need 2 gauges in equal compression and 2 in equal tension for that to work, at each axial location on the barrel.  He could throw some dummy gages on there to complete the bridge (making it half-active), but he may as well use fixed resistors at that point.


I didnt have the heart to tell him it would take 20 strain gauges to measure 4 unique points along the barrel if building full bridge circuits. So I went with "just do the math,"  but that didnt work out so well either.


Actually, you cannot easily build a full bridge circuit when you do not have anything in compression.  Everything will be pretty much in tension.  The temperature can be compensated easily by putting everything near the barrel.  In fact the whole apparatus will be in the same room.

To balance the bridges (which is what I would do before starting, since I don't like to rely on code to do this) I would have one variable resistor, two fixed, and the gauge for each.  To amplify the signal, requires an op-amp.  I am in the process of trying to decide on which one would be best for the ADQ chip I found.   I don't care if the signal is linear or not, since I would calibrate the output with the known input.  I would then do a best fit equation in a spread sheet.

If I were bending a bar, then the full bridge would be much better as there would be more signal.  But, I am not bending a bar, I am expanding a tube radially, and slightly compressing it linearly due to Poisson's ratio.  But this compression will be offset just a little by the resistance of the projectile putting the tube in a little bit of tension. If the tube were capped, then there would be significant tension.

Now, I suppose using two gauges at 180 degrees may help give a better signal, and I may wind up doing that.


Do you know the parameters you want for your barrel yet?  I ran some rough numbers on page 1- you may want to try estimating what sort of microstrain you expect the gages to experience and see how that meshes with the precision of the rest of your electronic setup (amplifier, voltage source, ADC, etc.)  It's a good first-order check of what you'll be able to resolve with your measurements.
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 6:09:00 PM EDT
[#8]
The "barrel" is a piece of A-513 DOM tubing that is a nominal .380" I.D. and .625 O.D.  I have a stick left over from another project that is 45" long.

I ran the strain numbers once, but I cannot seem to find those notes.  However, I seem to recall that the maximum strain would be about .0008 at 4000 psi.

If I could get a resolution of 10 atm (~150 psi) I would be elated.  Even 15 atm (225 psi) would be more than adequate.  But, the 12 bit resolution might get me quite a bit better than that.

ETA:  I found an online calculator for stress in the tube.  I also found a reference for Young's Modulus which is stress/strain.  Using what I found gives me a strain of about 1.62 x 10-4 or 162 micro-strain.

The calculator gave me a hoop stress of 4716 psi while the reference for Young's Modulus was 29 x 106 psi.

If I can get a the strain gauge DAQ to differentiate between 10 micro-strain, then that would be about 250 psi increments (though it may well not be linear).  That would be good enough for this purpose.
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 7:46:29 PM EDT
[#9]
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The "barrel" is a piece of A-513 DOM tubing that is a nominal .380" I.D. and .625 O.D.  I have a stick left over from another project that is 45" long.

I ran the strain numbers once, but I cannot seem to find those notes.  However, I seem to recall that the maximum strain would be about .0008 at 4000 psi.

If I could get a resolution of 10 atm (~150 psi) I would be elated.  Even 15 atm (225 psi) would be more than adequate.  But, the 12 bit resolution might get me quite a bit better than that.
View Quote


Using those numbers for the tube, I'm calculating about 180 microstrain at 4000 psi.  FWIW, this also gives a hoop stress WAY below the yield strength on that tube.

As for the ADC, resolution is one thing, repeatability and the noise floor are another.  You can easily (depending on the setup) have multiple LSBs of pure trash being read in.  Having a good amplifier circuit close to the gages will help.  I would recommend digging up one of the specialty low-noise, instrumentation Op-amps designed for bridge measurements.  Couple of bucks on Digikey.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 3:26:54 PM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:


Using those numbers for the tube, I'm calculating about 180 microstrain at 4000 psi.  FWIW, this also gives a hoop stress WAY below the yield strength on that tube.

As for the ADC, resolution is one thing, repeatability and the noise floor are another.  You can easily (depending on the setup) have multiple LSBs of pure trash being read in.  Having a good amplifier circuit close to the gages will help.  I would recommend digging up one of the specialty low-noise, instrumentation Op-amps designed for bridge measurements.  Couple of bucks on Digikey.
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The "barrel" is a piece of A-513 DOM tubing that is a nominal .380" I.D. and .625 O.D.  I have a stick left over from another project that is 45" long.

I ran the strain numbers once, but I cannot seem to find those notes.  However, I seem to recall that the maximum strain would be about .0008 at 4000 psi.

If I could get a resolution of 10 atm (~150 psi) I would be elated.  Even 15 atm (225 psi) would be more than adequate.  But, the 12 bit resolution might get me quite a bit better than that.


Using those numbers for the tube, I'm calculating about 180 microstrain at 4000 psi.  FWIW, this also gives a hoop stress WAY below the yield strength on that tube.

As for the ADC, resolution is one thing, repeatability and the noise floor are another.  You can easily (depending on the setup) have multiple LSBs of pure trash being read in.  Having a good amplifier circuit close to the gages will help.  I would recommend digging up one of the specialty low-noise, instrumentation Op-amps designed for bridge measurements.  Couple of bucks on Digikey.


High speed 'One shot' measurements are the nightmare of Analog to Digital Conversion (ADC).
A huge amount of time the 'pulse shape' ends up being determined by the amplifier chain from teh sensor to the ADC.

You can get huge resolutions with repeated measurements at slow sample rates.
A single event measurements at a high sample rate?

How much money do you want to spend?

The bottom bits of all the 'high resolution' ADCs are noise.
Multiple runs let you store it and use Digital Signal Processing (DSP) to average it out.

If you are really smart you can even lear how dither signals and 'Out of Band 'noise injection work.
But again.
Only if you can take multiple measurements of the SAME pulse.

Even running multiple converters in parallel does not work.
Each converter has this nasty thing called 'aperture uncertainty' about WHEN the measurement is taken.

And the uncertainty varies with so many parameters it cannot be determined.


Link Posted: 5/15/2016 4:06:26 PM EDT
[#11]
How much money do you want to spend?
View Quote
 

As little as possible.  However, $150 would be about my maximum spending limit.  

High speed 'One shot' measurements are the nightmare of Analog to Digital Conversion (ADC).
View Quote


I gathered that from my initial investigation, which is why I posted the question.  I was hoping that someone would have a "quick and dirty" solution.

I really wish there were an easy way to do the thing strictly analog.  If it were a relatively slow process it would be rather easy.  But, the speed  requires much more involved stuff.

One way to (maybe) do  this with strictly analog equipment is with four old fashioned (non storage) analog oscilloscopes and a very high speed movie camera.  A chart recorder would be way too slow.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 8:06:25 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
 

As little as possible.  However, $150 would be about my maximum spending limit.  



I gathered that from my initial investigation, which is why I posted the question.  I was hoping that someone would have a "quick and dirty" solution.

I really wish there were an easy way to do the thing strictly analog.  If it were a relatively slow process it would be rather easy.  But, the speed  requires much more involved stuff.

One way to (maybe) do  this with strictly analog equipment is with four old fashioned (non storage) analog oscilloscopes and a very high speed movie camera.  A chart recorder would be way too slow.
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Quoted:
How much money do you want to spend?
 

As little as possible.  However, $150 would be about my maximum spending limit.  

High speed 'One shot' measurements are the nightmare of Analog to Digital Conversion (ADC).


I gathered that from my initial investigation, which is why I posted the question.  I was hoping that someone would have a "quick and dirty" solution.

I really wish there were an easy way to do the thing strictly analog.  If it were a relatively slow process it would be rather easy.  But, the speed  requires much more involved stuff.

One way to (maybe) do  this with strictly analog equipment is with four old fashioned (non storage) analog oscilloscopes and a very high speed movie camera.  A chart recorder would be way too slow.


A decent rented digital sampling scope will easily measure the pulses and the time between them.
Most have at least two channels and rigging something to just put both pulses on a single channel is easy.
All you have to do is make sure they are large enough to see on the scope.

Any decent high speed scope has more than enough sampling and vertical amp bandwidth.

A 'scope card' in a PC is unlikely to work though.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 8:26:01 PM EDT
[#13]
Yeah, but where to rent such a scope: that is a bit of a problem around here.  The nearest large city is Salt Lake City, UT and it is about a 2.5 hour drive one way from here.
Link Posted: 5/16/2016 11:14:26 AM EDT
[#14]
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Yeah, but where to rent such a scope: that is a bit of a problem around here.  The nearest large city is Salt Lake City, UT and it is about a 2.5 hour drive one way from here.
View Quote


UPS.

Electrorent is the big gun but often has smaller portable 'field' units available for not all that much daily.

Link Posted: 5/22/2016 9:50:44 PM EDT
[#15]
ElectroRents isn't cheap in any way that I have ever experienced.

A good 4CH DPO scope with this kind of capability is one way around all the fuss of designing and building your own circuits, but I am thinking they would blow through your budget real fast. They take a big chunk of change out of us for everything we do and we have large accounts with them. No reason not to look into it, but borrowing one from a HAM or other hobbyist may be a better route.

Link Posted: 5/24/2016 11:29:29 AM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
ElectroRents isn't cheap in any way that I have ever experienced.

A good 4CH DPO scope with this kind of capability is one way around all the fuss of designing and building your own circuits, but I am thinking they would blow through your budget real fast. They take a big chunk of change out of us for everything we do and we have large accounts with them. No reason not to look into it, but borrowing one from a HAM or other hobbyist may be a better route.

View Quote


There are plenty of other smaller rental places.
ER has everything but it is often new and expensive stuff.

Bandwidth is the problem.
You need a lot more than a cheap audio scope.

The cheaper the scope the better your dedicated amplifier chain will need to be.


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