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Posted: 4/12/2016 8:16:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/13/2016 1:55:34 PM EDT
[#1]
It was actually done away with in the 80's. Papal code was revised. It all stemmed from the middle ages, when the Catholic Church was corrupt and you could by "Writs of Acceptance" that bought your way into heaven. The Templar was seen as heresy due to a corrupt Pope (Borgia) and thus all Templars were burned at the stake. All forms of masonry and Templars were seen as heretics and excommunicated by the Catholic Church. The Popes after Borgia, can elect to adopt the papal code from the previous Pope. Which they did without reading. In the 60's it was changed to no communion, in the 80's taken out all together. If you ask a priest now a days, they usually don't know the many thousands of pages of papal code any how. As for Masonry, we know what the charge says and that we all have to believe in a supreme being whomever it may be.

Edit: stance is Catholic freemasons cannot receive Communion. I live in a small community and have Freemason plates on my truck. Everyone knows me and know that I am a good respectable person and have never treated me any different nor cared when I received communion in church.
Link Posted: 4/13/2016 10:22:22 PM EDT
[#2]
The Catholic church still prohibits membership in Freemasonry.   (Some priests enforce the rule more so than others.)  I've known of a number of Catholic brothers that keep their Masonic affiliation a secret.
Link Posted: 6/15/2016 10:06:09 AM EDT
[#3]
Not here to preach or attack anyone, but to make it clear for any Catholics considering membership.  It is not allowed, in fact, condemned by no less than 32 Popes.  No Pope in his right mind would go against that, unless possibly, he himself is a Free Mason.

Some viewing, if you have the time, and these videos include some very interesting history.  Quite in depth.

A brief summary a larger historical study by a journalist well known for his research:





The longer vid of the project referred in the summary:





Another interview that covers the infiltration of Free Masonry into the Catholic Church (interview conducted prior to the election of Pope Francis):

Link Posted: 6/15/2016 10:14:15 AM EDT
[#4]
tag
Link Posted: 6/15/2016 8:26:03 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not here to preach or attack anyone, but to make it clear for any Catholics considering membership.  It is not allowed, in fact, condemned by no less than 32 Popes.  No Pope in his right mind would go against that, unless possibly, he himself is a Free Mason.

Some viewing, if you have the time, and these videos include some very interesting history.  Quite in depth.

A brief summary a larger historical study by a journalist well known for his research:

https://youtu.be/l4fmARoBQsc



The longer vid of the project referred in the summary:

https://youtu.be/86GrvQRThSk



Another interview that covers the infiltration of Free Masonry into the Catholic Church (interview conducted prior to the election of Pope Francis):

https://youtu.be/NW7VwFb6Uzo
View Quote


Those vids aren't biased at all...

As for the OP, I'm a Catholic Brother.  Some congregation members know, if they care they sure as hell don't show it.  When I was debating about whether to knock or not, I looked up the history and politics behind the Papal stances.
Link Posted: 6/16/2016 9:33:35 AM EDT
[#6]
There are Masons in this area who are Roman Catholic and members of the K of C.

Recently, Masonic and K of C membership was listed in a local Brother's obit.

A Brother buried in the local, Catholic cemetery has a Square and Compasses displayed next to his headstone.
Link Posted: 6/16/2016 10:40:36 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There are Masons in this area who are Roman Catholic and members of the K of C.

Recently, Masonic and K of C membership was listed in a local Brother's obit.

A Brother buried in the local, Catholic cemetery has a Square and Compasses displayed next to his headstone.
View Quote


Year's ago, wasn't there a local Priest that was a member of your Lodge?  I know you had a Rabbi prior to his death.
Link Posted: 6/16/2016 10:46:59 AM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:


Year's ago, wasn't there a local Priest that was a member of your Lodge?  I know you had a Rabbi prior to his death.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
There are Masons in this area who are Roman Catholic and members of the K of C.

Recently, Masonic and K of C membership was listed in a local Brother's obit.

A Brother buried in the local, Catholic cemetery has a Square and Compasses displayed next to his headstone.


Year's ago, wasn't there a local Priest that was a member of your Lodge?  I know you had a Rabbi prior to his death.


Can't say, that was probably before my time.

A Rabbi wouldn't surprise me, plenty of Jewish guys in DeMolay when I was a member.
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 5:04:02 PM EDT
[#9]
The big Roman Catholic church across from our lodge sure doesn't mind using our huge parking lot during their events.
Link Posted: 10/11/2016 2:40:20 PM EDT
[#10]
I am a baptized catholic.  I am a mason.  I was too young to have any say in the baptism, I did have a say to become a mason.  I believe more in masonry than I do Catholicism.  I participate in one, and don't participate in the other.  I feel happy and free with this and have no guilt.  God is God and I believe he is non-denomitational.
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 1:45:29 PM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 10/15/2016 1:50:22 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It was actually done away with in the 80's. Papal code was revised. It all stemmed from the middle ages, when the Catholic Church was corrupt and you could by "Writs of Acceptance" that bought your way into heaven. The Templar was seen as heresy due to a corrupt Pope (Borgia) and thus all Templars were burned at the stake. All forms of masonry and Templars were seen as heretics and excommunicated by the Catholic Church. The Popes after Borgia, can elect to adopt the papal code from the previous Pope. Which they did without reading. In the 60's it was changed to no communion, in the 80's taken out all together. If you ask a priest now a days, they usually don't know the many thousands of pages of papal code any how. As for Masonry, we know what the charge says and that we all have to believe in a supreme being whomever it may be.

Edit: stance is Catholic freemasons cannot receive Communion. I live in a small community and have Freemason plates on my truck. Everyone knows me and know that I am a good respectable person and have never treated me any different nor cared when I received communion in church.
View Quote


Holy distorted abuse of history, Batman!

Link Posted: 10/15/2016 1:53:12 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not here to preach or attack anyone, but to make it clear for any Catholics considering membership.  It is not allowed, in fact, condemned by no less than 32 Popes.  No Pope in his right mind would go against that, unless possibly, he himself is a Free Mason.

Some viewing, if you have the time, and these videos include some very interesting history.  Quite in depth.

A brief summary a larger historical study by a journalist well known for his research:

https://youtu.be/l4fmARoBQsc



The longer vid of the project referred in the summary:

https://youtu.be/86GrvQRThSk



Another interview that covers the infiltration of Free Masonry into the Catholic Church (interview conducted prior to the election of Pope Francis):

https://youtu.be/NW7VwFb6Uzo
View Quote


And the pendulum swings the other way.

Truth, being somewhere in the middle.

I still, think the most absurd thing the Mason's did is attempt to connect themselves to the Hospitalers. The Templars, I suppose you could argue, though it's dubious. The Hospitalers never went anywhere.
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 6:40:36 PM EDT
[#14]
I always get a chuckle at these types of threads.

The Catholic Church thru the writings of the Popes and through other Magesterial documents has a developed position on Freemasonry.  Freemasonry as we know it today is long in the tooth {not as long as the Church, but fairly long} and has its own teachings.  The Church, being best able to assess Her own teaching in comparison with others, has always and consistently taught that the teachings of both are incompatible.  They still are and never has that changed or will it for that matter.  The statement that "something changed in the '60's" is simply wrong but is a typical line tossed out there by some priests who have diverged from Church teaching themselves or otherwise may be in ignorance.

Those who have stated that the Church STILL has a ban on communing of Freemasons are correct.  There are extensive reasons why, but as with all forms of the ban on communion, the purpose is to focus the issue on the teachings of the Church so those who fall under the ban may come back home to the Church, that is, to the teaching of Jesus Christ and a relationship with Him.

If a fellow wants to know the whys and wherefores, he should take the time to study the issue.  It's easy to do online.  Really, never have we had more info right at our fingertips!

Catholic doctrine teaches that there is a heaven and there is a hell.  There is that which is called sin and rebellion against God who is the Creator of all and who seeks good for all.  That good can only truly be realized in a relationship with the personal God in Jesus Christ.  That salvation does not come through various and sundry other religions nor can there be a "leveling" of religions as co-equals in the offer of salvation to mankind.  The Church's position on Freemasonry outlines the why's and wherefores.

Here's a start:

http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18840420_humanum-genus.html

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2652

http://www.traditionalcatholicmass.com/home-m-420.html
Link Posted: 12/21/2016 11:34:21 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
I always get a chuckle at these types of threads...
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Quoted:
I always get a chuckle at these types of threads...


As do I.


Quoted:If a fellow wants to know the whys and wherefores, he should take the time to study the issue.  It's easy to do online.  Really, never have we had more info right at our fingertips!


I could not agree more.  The internet is literally a boundless resource into the nature of Freemasonry.  Unfortunately, much of the information is from many "fruitcakes", for lack of a better word, that know nothing of the fraternity.  As with all things on-line, a great portion is simply made-up to garner attention to ones whackyness.  Or, to provide a medium for an agenda; facts be damned.

Chief among the misinformation, misunderstanding, down-right lies, is that Freemasonry is a religion and teaches salvation.  It is not.

Quoted:There is that which is called sin and rebellion against God who is the Creator of all and who seeks good for all.  That good can only truly be realized in a relationship with the personal God in Jesus Christ.


Again, you will find no argument from a Freemason on this statement.  Freemasonry does not teach, nor promote, a realization of anyone's personal relationship with G-d.  Freemasonry recognizes the existence of G-d as the Creator of all.  Freemasonry does not delve into sin or rebellion against G-d.  It, as previously stated, does not teach salvation.  Freemasonry, through the use of allegorical figures, presents lessons to assist a man living a moral and honorable life.  How the man processes those lessons and applies them is up to the man.  

Quoted:That salvation does not come through various and sundry other religions nor can there be a "leveling" of religions as co-equals in the offer of salvation to mankind.


In Freemasonry, there is no co-equaling of of religions.  Freemasons understand the divisive nature of the varying dogma of religion.  Freemasonry is about union and brotherhood.  That's why religion simply isn't a part.  The individual Freemason worships G-d as he sees fit.  It re-enforces that he is to do so.  To a man, I know of no Freemason who has lessened his religious beliefs because of Freemasonry.  In fact, Freemasonry encourages him to become stronger to his individual faith and we truly have all done so.  

Freemasonry levels all men as equals.  It is the embodiment of, "All men are created equal".  It is the most common misconception about the fraternity that Freemasonry turns all religions into one religion.  I cannot tell you how often I hear, "How dare you sit in a lodge with a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist...!"  My response is, "How dare you sit in a college classroom, a PTA meeting, an office meeting, the doctor's office or the DMV with a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist...!"

People really need to get over the whole, "Freemasonry is a religion" thing.  It's not.  It's a "club".  The only requirements to join the "club" is a belief in G-d and a checkbook.

To get a little more understanding of Freemasonry, here's a start:

http://freemasonsfordummies.com/Hodapps/Welcome.html
Link Posted: 12/21/2016 12:13:22 PM EDT
[#16]
Quotes are provided by PSI, responses by EVR:

"Freemasonry, through the use of allegorical figures, presents lessons to assist a man living a moral and honorable life."

For those who care to investigate, this would be a teaching that conflicts with the Church's doctrines on original sin, grace and redemption for the Church teaches that true morality cannot be divorced from these doctrines.  

"In Freemasonry, there is no co-equaling of of religions."

For those who care to investigate, the Church teaching on "other religions" and Freemasonry differs on this point.  I think also that it is manifestly obvious that notions of equality and religion  put forth by PSI defy his own words here.

"Freemasonry is about union and brotherhood.  That's why religion simply isn't a part."

For those who care to investigate, the Church teaches that there can be no true "union" and brotherhood except through faith specifically in Christ and adoption as children of God in the Church.  Thus there is no such thing as true brotherhood divorced from true religion.

"To a man, I know of no Freemason who has lessened his religious beliefs because of Freemasonry."

For those care to investigate, by the very doctrines of the Catholic faith as stated even in the one Letter by then Prefect Cardinal Ratzinger, this is an incorrect statement about Catholic Freemasons.  Membership itself in a condemned organization is by definition the "lessening of one's religious beliefs".  By the teaching of the Catholic faith, the mere taking of oaths in Freemasonry is a condemned sin.  Mere membership is a "lessening of one's religious beliefs".

"I cannot tell you how often I hear, "How dare you sit in a lodge with a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist...!"  My response is, "How dare you sit in a college classroom, a PTA meeting, an office meeting, the doctor's office or the DMV with a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist...!" "

For those who care to investigate, the Church teaches that there can be no attainment of a commonly defined concept of virtue among members of divergent religions that affirm and espouse opposing doctrines unless the definition of virtue and the religious convictions of such members are altered to come into agreement with each other, in which case, and specifically in the case of Catholic faith, the religion would be nullified.  As a practical matter, the Church has also taught that membership in such organizations has a detrimental effect on the zeal of Catholics which I submit pretty much goes without saying and has been proven true over and over.  Also as a practical matter, humans only have so many hours in the day and only have so much money, and thus "good works" done on the part of the Catholic member of a society such as the Freemasons are acts taking away the good that could be done in the name of the Savior Jesus Christ and thus divert from His specific Glory.  They are hours and pennies diverted from the work of the Gospel.

"In fact, Freemasonry encourages him to become stronger to his individual faith and we truly have all done so."

This one simply assumes that all religions are compatible with each other and the attainment of religious views are thus acting in harmony with the good of all other men.  That notion should be by now I think, even for those who don't study religion per se, manifestly incorrect.

"The only requirements to join the "club" is a belief in G-d and a checkbook."

I can't comment on the checkbook, but for those who care to investigate, this is in fact an affirmation of a form of a religious statement, for to require a "belief in G-d" is to affirm the reality of some form of religion as important, or as a virtue. It is a value statement about "religion" as a general thing as if there is such a thing as a "religion" unfettered by the details of its precepts and teachings.  This statement affirms the value of religion over atheism but then eviscerates it by pretending all are compatible with each other and all somehow teach compatible ideals of virtue.  The Catholic Church does not teach this and in fact denies it.  Not all religions ARE compatible and never have been.  The perennial Magesterium of the Catholic Church denies the co-equal value of "religion" as an abstract or as a concrete reality.

I do not have the time to get into all the details here but certainly the details can be found for those who care to investigate.

For mere starters, one might want to see the encyclical "Mortalium Animos" along with the other ones cited, especially if one is a Catholic.

MANY Catholics are not knowledgeable about the teachings of the Church and especially in recent years, many don't seem to care.

Catholicism and Freemasonry are incompatible.  A Catholic who is a Freemason lives in a state of mortal sin.  This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Link Posted: 12/21/2016 12:38:33 PM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
The Catholic church still prohibits membership in Freemasonry.   (Some priests enforce the rule more so than others.)  I've known of a number of Catholic brothers that keep their Masonic affiliation a secret.
View Quote



Well, being able to keep secrets IS one of the important parts of Freemasonry after all...
Link Posted: 12/21/2016 1:41:49 PM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:



Well, being able to keep secrets IS one of the important parts of Freemasonry after all...
View Quote



OK.

That's pretty funny.

One more thing:

For those who may have an interest:

http://www.sensustraditionis.org/Freemasonic.pdf
Link Posted: 12/21/2016 6:08:42 PM EDT
[#19]
Glad to see that this topic is going well.  It's nice to know that my brotherhood in arms is going to send me straight to the bottom of the pile...lol. At least the ride has been fun!!!
Link Posted: 12/22/2016 10:36:27 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quotes are provided by PSI, responses by EVR:

"Freemasonry, through the use of allegorical figures, presents lessons to assist a man living a moral and honorable life."

For those who care to investigate, this would be a teaching that conflicts with the Church's doctrines on original sin, grace and redemption for the Church teaches that true morality cannot be divorced from these doctrines.  

"In Freemasonry, there is no co-equaling of of religions."

For those who care to investigate, the Church teaching on "other religions" and Freemasonry differs on this point.  I think also that it is manifestly obvious that notions of equality and religion  put forth by PSI defy his own words here.

"Freemasonry is about union and brotherhood.  That's why religion simply isn't a part."

For those who care to investigate, the Church teaches that there can be no true "union" and brotherhood except through faith specifically in Christ and adoption as children of God in the Church.  Thus there is no such thing as true brotherhood divorced from true religion.

"To a man, I know of no Freemason who has lessened his religious beliefs because of Freemasonry."

For those care to investigate, by the very doctrines of the Catholic faith as stated even in the one Letter by then Prefect Cardinal Ratzinger, this is an incorrect statement about Catholic Freemasons.  Membership itself in a condemned organization is by definition the "lessening of one's religious beliefs".  By the teaching of the Catholic faith, the mere taking of oaths in Freemasonry is a condemned sin.  Mere membership is a "lessening of one's religious beliefs".

"I cannot tell you how often I hear, "How dare you sit in a lodge with a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist...!"  My response is, "How dare you sit in a college classroom, a PTA meeting, an office meeting, the doctor's office or the DMV with a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist...!" "

For those who care to investigate, the Church teaches that there can be no attainment of a commonly defined concept of virtue among members of divergent religions that affirm and espouse opposing doctrines unless the definition of virtue and the religious convictions of such members are altered to come into agreement with each other, in which case, and specifically in the case of Catholic faith, the religion would be nullified.  As a practical matter, the Church has also taught that membership in such organizations has a detrimental effect on the zeal of Catholics which I submit pretty much goes without saying and has been proven true over and over.  Also as a practical matter, humans only have so many hours in the day and only have so much money, and thus "good works" done on the part of the Catholic member of a society such as the Freemasons are acts taking away the good that could be done in the name of the Savior Jesus Christ and thus divert from His specific Glory.  They are hours and pennies diverted from the work of the Gospel.

"In fact, Freemasonry encourages him to become stronger to his individual faith and we truly have all done so."

This one simply assumes that all religions are compatible with each other and the attainment of religious views are thus acting in harmony with the good of all other men.  That notion should be by now I think, even for those who don't study religion per se, manifestly incorrect.

"The only requirements to join the "club" is a belief in G-d and a checkbook."

I can't comment on the checkbook, but for those who care to investigate, this is in fact an affirmation of a form of a religious statement, for to require a "belief in G-d" is to affirm the reality of some form of religion as important, or as a virtue. It is a value statement about "religion" as a general thing as if there is such a thing as a "religion" unfettered by the details of its precepts and teachings.  This statement affirms the value of religion over atheism but then eviscerates it by pretending all are compatible with each other and all somehow teach compatible ideals of virtue.  The Catholic Church does not teach this and in fact denies it.  Not all religions ARE compatible and never have been.  The perennial Magesterium of the Catholic Church denies the co-equal value of "religion" as an abstract or as a concrete reality.

I do not have the time to get into all the details here but certainly the details can be found for those who care to investigate.

For mere starters, one might want to see the encyclical "Mortalium Animos" along with the other ones cited, especially if one is a Catholic.

MANY Catholics are not knowledgeable about the teachings of the Church and especially in recent years, many don't seem to care.

Catholicism and Freemasonry are incompatible.  A Catholic who is a Freemason lives in a state of mortal sin.  This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.
View Quote


This is the textbook example as to why religion isn't discussed in Lodge.

"For those who care to investigate", with an open mind and without preconceived notions of that of which they know not, you'll find that Freemasonry is not as you believe.  The great thing about Freemasonry is that's fine and no Freemason will ever try to to dissuade you from your beliefs.  Unfortunately, not all organizations take the same stance.
Link Posted: 12/22/2016 11:04:15 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not here to preach or attack anyone, but to make it clear for any Catholics considering membership.  It is not allowed, in fact, condemned by no less than 32 Popes.  No Pope in his right mind would go against that, unless possibly, he himself is a Free Mason.

Some viewing, if you have the time, and these videos include some very interesting history.  Quite in depth.

A brief summary a larger historical study by a journalist well known for his research:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=https://youtu.be/l4fmARoBQsc



The longer vid of the project referred in the summary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=https://youtu.be/86GrvQRThSk



Another interview that covers the infiltration of Free Masonry into the Catholic Church (interview conducted prior to the election of Pope Francis):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=https://youtu.be/NW7VwFb6Uzo
View Quote


Why did you take down the last guy?  He's a hoot!
Link Posted: 12/22/2016 11:16:54 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This is the textbook example as to why religion isn't discussed in Lodge.

"For those who care to investigate", with an open mind and without preconceived notions of that of which they know not, you'll find that Freemasonry is not as you believe.  The great thing about Freemasonry is that's fine and no Freemason will ever try to to dissuade you from your beliefs.  Unfortunately, not all organizations take the same stance.
View Quote


Not much to add here except to agree that one of those "organizations" that doesn't take the same stance is the Catholic Church which teaches the dogma of "extra ecclesiam nula salus", that is, "outside the Church there is no salvation" and thus all Catholics SHOULD make efforts to convert those who do not believe the Gospel, for if they DON'T they demonstrate that they themselves do not believe it, for the Gospel teaches not just a generalized "love for others" but a love that cannot ignore the lost state of others and is willing even to suffer to save the lost.  So Catholics must engage in activity to try to live out through a pious and holy life and present through the word of reason and the revealed Word of Christ the Gospel of Jesus Christ as clearly and selflessly as possible, in order to guide and convince others to the exclusive Truth taught by the Church.

You will find that I only responded to your assertions of Freemasonry, not my own opinions or study of Freemasonry.  Thus my statements in response to yours stand and need no repetition.
Link Posted: 12/22/2016 12:03:44 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:


..."outside the Church there is no salvation"...
View Quote


I could not agree more.  This is really, as I understand it, the crux of the matter.  There is this deep seeded belief that Freemasonry offers a path to salvation.  It doesn't.  Unfortunately, those that refuse to believe this basic fact won't listen to it.
Link Posted: 12/22/2016 1:32:33 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:


I could not agree more.  This is really, as I understand it, the crux of the matter.  There is this deep seeded belief that Freemasonry offers a path to salvation.  It doesn't.  Unfortunately, those that refuse to believe this basic fact won't listen to it.
View Quote



Catholics know that Freemasonry doesn't offer a path to salvation.

That it leads the other direction is a different story.  And thus the Church's condemnation of Freemasonry.
Link Posted: 12/23/2016 11:13:34 AM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:



Catholics know that Freemasonry doesn't offer a path to salvation.

That it leads the other direction is a different story.  And thus the Church's condemnation of Freemasonry.
View Quote


So, let me get this straight.  It is the opinion of the church that because I sit in a room with men who believe in G-d, and I have social intercourse and am friends with them, even though they may, or may not, be Christians, I'm going to Hell?
Link Posted: 12/23/2016 11:32:17 AM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:


So, let me get this straight.  It is the opinion of the church that because I sit in a room with men who believe in G-d, and I have social intercourse and am friends with them, even though they may, or may not, be Christians, I'm going to Hell?
View Quote


No, it is not the "opinion of the Church".

It is the doctrine of the Church that warns that there is sin that separates a man from God.  That sin includes taking oaths as exist in the practice of Freemasonry, a practice the Church condemns.  Separation from God is also manifest in affirming other paths to God that involve a rejection of the exclusive path offered through Jesus Christ, Son of God.  The Church affirms the teaching of Jesus Christ Himself:

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

This is only some of Catholic doctrine on the topic.  More can be found here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm

Jesus Christ has taught:

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

In this we see the mission of the Catholic Church further:

1}  to go and make disciples specifically for Him, and
2}  to teach EVERYTHING He has commanded.

The former is pretty plain.  The latter explains why Catholic doctrine is in-depth and to some, at least, seems complex.  That is because Christ has taught us much. One of those teachings is on the authority of the Church and the need for people to be members of the Church to guarantee their salvation.  Other teachings are on sin and how sin separates from God.  Membership in Freemasonry is only one example of such sin.  

Finally, God is the ultimate judge.  The Church does not presume to make pronouncements on the salvation of every single individual.  However, through the teaching of Jesus the Church has received warnings, warnings She passes on in order to make salvation available to all, just as Her mission commands.
Link Posted: 12/23/2016 12:33:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Now it sounds like of you take any oath other then with the church your going to hell.  It is not an opinion of the church, but a statement from the church that it is a sin and therefore you will be punished?  Oh boy, this is a very slippery slope that one must follow and most will be taking a fast ride downhill.  If what I am reading is correct.

Freemasonry is not about the church or against the church, but for the church and members to continue to improve upon their lives and those of others.  That we take care of those who cannot take care of themselves and treat every person as if they are our brother.   All I know is that I will continue on my path to the light and and enlighten other to do the same.  That we are all children under the heavens and no one religion is better then another, but they all coexist for the improvement of mankind.  It has always been my belief that god does not take attendance, but instead wishes us to put our faith in him and follow his teachings.  If the church cannot accept that, it is not an issue with me, but with them.

Link Posted: 12/23/2016 2:26:12 PM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:

No, it is not the "opinion of the Church".

It is the doctrine of the Church that warns that there is sin that separates a man from God.  That sin includes taking oaths as exist in the practice of Freemasonry, a practice the Church condemns.
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Quoted:

No, it is not the "opinion of the Church".

It is the doctrine of the Church that warns that there is sin that separates a man from God.  That sin includes taking oaths as exist in the practice of Freemasonry, a practice the Church condemns.


So, let me get this straight.  The church has determined the context of the oaths of Freemasonry and has decided it can look into the heart of the man and decide how those words direct him?  Because, I'm sorry to tell you, only G-d can do that.  Has the church decided to make a blanket assumption as to the true nature of those oaths based solely on their interpretation of the meaning of the words?  Are some oaths allowed, but only when they serve the interests of the church?

"Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” ~  John 7:24

Also, doesn't Christ command to make no oaths?

"But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King."  Matthew 5:33-36

So any oath taken in accordance with church "doctrine" is the same sin as those taken by Freemasons.

Quoted:Separation from God is also manifest in affirming other paths to God that involve a rejection of the exclusive path offered through Jesus Christ, Son of God.  The Church affirms the teaching of Jesus Christ Himself:

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

This is only some of Catholic doctrine on the topic.  More can be found here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm


So am I sinning and am I going to Hell because I believe all men have the free will to decide how and when they worship G-d?  Even though I do not participate in or automatically devalue his worth as a human by practicing that means of worship?  I thought "free will" was still part of church "doctrine" in that the church acknowledges that I have the free will to consider options contrary to church "doctrine".  But, I only sin if I personally exercise those alternative options.  If I adhere to the will of G-d, I do not suffer the consequences of those that do not.  I thought that I am cast down only if I sin.  When did the church throw-out the concept that no man may die (either physically or spiritually) for the sins of another?  If that's the case, we're all on an express train straight to Hell.  Do not pass go.  Do not collect salvation.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. ~ 2 Corinthians 5:10


Quoted:Jesus Christ has taught:

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

In this we see the mission of the Catholic Church further:

1}  to go and make disciples specifically for Him, and
2}  to teach EVERYTHING He has commanded.

The former is pretty plain.  The latter explains why Catholic doctrine is in-depth and to some, at least, seems complex.  That is because Christ has taught us much. One of those teachings is on the authority of the Church and the need for people to be members of the Church to guarantee their salvation.  Other teachings are on sin and how sin separates from God.  Membership in Freemasonry is only one example of such sin.


So, what is my sin then?  If I personally have accepted Christ as the Lord and believe He is the true path to salvation.  Which according to the church's "doctrine", as stated previously by you, Freemasonry does not offer a path to salvation.  Then, dispite following that path, if I do not proselytize and do my utmost to convert every person I meet, abandoning them if they do not:  I'm sinning and going to Hell?

Quoted:Finally, God is the ultimate judge.  The Church does not presume to make pronouncements on the salvation of every single individual.  However, through the teaching of Jesus the Church has received warnings, warnings She passes on in order to make salvation available to all, just as Her mission commands.


Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? ~ James 4:11-12

The church most certainly is making that presumption.  Mortal man is proclaiming that I am violating the will of G-d, even though I am personally following the path he set forth, simply because I choose to associate with those that are not on that path.
Link Posted: 12/23/2016 3:04:54 PM EDT
[#29]
PSI, I was raised Catholic... the only thing I took from my time being one, (about 30 years) is that Catholics are always right and everyone else's beliefs are totally wrong and a sin. I'm Presbyterian now, for good reason and also for the same reason so many people have left the Catholic church.



I have a question for EVR... what about the Oath that the President of the United States takes when he takes office?  is that a sin?  What about the one a person takes when they become a military member, a police officer, a fireman, etc..
Link Posted: 12/23/2016 3:52:55 PM EDT
[#30]
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Quoted:

So, let me get this straight.  The church has determined the context of the oaths of Freemasonry and has decided it can look into the heart of the man and decide how those words direct him?  Because, I'm sorry to tell you, only G-d can do that.  Has the church decided to make a blanket assumption as to the true nature of those oaths based solely on their interpretation of the meaning of the words?  Are some oaths allowed, but only when they serve the interests of the church?

"Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” ~  John 7:24

Also, doesn't Christ command to make no oaths?

"But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King."  Matthew 5:33-36

So any oath taken in accordance with church "doctrine" is the same sin as those taken by Freemasons.



So am I sinning and am I going to Hell because I believe all men have the free will to decide how and when they worship G-d?  Even though I do not participate in or automatically devalue his worth as a human by practicing that means of worship?  I thought "free will" was still part of church "doctrine" in that the church acknowledges that I have the free will to consider options contrary to church "doctrine".  But, I only sin if I personally exercise those alternative options.  If I adhere to the will of G-d, I do not suffer the consequences of those that do not.  I thought that I am cast down only if I sin.  When did the church throw-out the concept that no man may die (either physically or spiritually) for the sins of another?  If that's the case, we're all on an express train straight to Hell.  Do not pass go.  Do not collect salvation.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. ~ 2 Corinthians 5:10




So, what is my sin then?  If I personally have accepted Christ as the Lord and believe He is the true path to salvation.  Which according to the church's "doctrine", as stated previously by you, Freemasonry does not offer a path to salvation.  Then, dispite following that path, if I do not proselytize and do my utmost to convert every person I meet, abandoning them if they do not:  I'm sinning and going to Hell?



Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? ~ James 4:11-12

The church most certainly is making that presumption.  Mortal man is proclaiming that I am violating the will of G-d, even though I am personally following the path he set forth, simply because I choose to associate with those that are not on that path.
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You are grasping some of it and some of it you are clearly missing, but I think from your posts your intent is mostly to express your opinions.  That's certainly OK, but you do seem to have a curiosity about what the Church teaches in deeper breadth than what can be presented in a thread here on the forum.

By no means am I denying your ability to have and state opinions about issues or state your own personal beliefs.  That your beliefs run counter to that taught by the Catholic Church comes as no surprise to me, since if they were in agreement you would be a Catholic and would leave Freemasonry behind which, who knows, could happen in the future.  It sounds like you may have some fairly significant questions about the doctrines of the Catholic faith beyond those impacting membership in Freemasonry which I have touched on. Sounds like maybe others do as well.

I have stated what is merely a sketch of the doctrines of the Church and only as they impact membership in Freemasonry.  By no means have I exhausted the doctrines and neither can I on a forum such as this. If you really have an interest in truly understanding the Catholic faith, by all means investigate further.  Your grasp of what I have presented is obviously limited by your minimal understanding of the breadth of Catholic teaching.  That is normal and only to be expected if you have not studied the Catholic faith in the past.

For more, if you so desire, I recommend the following:

<img src="https://www.amazon.com/Catechism-Catholic-Church/dp/1574551094/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1482522201&sr=8-3&keywords=catechism&tag=vglnk-c102-20 of the catholic church&tag=vglnk-c102-20" />

<img src="https://www.amazon.com/Catechism-Council-Trent-Classic-Reprint/dp/1440083487/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1482522259&sr=1-2&keywords=catechism&tag=vglnk-c102-20 of the council of trent&tag=vglnk-c102-20" />
Link Posted: 12/23/2016 4:03:09 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

PSI, I was raised Catholic... the only thing I took from my time being one, (about 30 years) is that Catholics are always right and everyone else's beliefs are totally wrong and a sin. I'm Presbyterian now, for good reason and also for the same reason so many people have left the Catholic church.


I have a question for EVR... what about the Oath that the President of the United States takes when he takes office?  is that a sin?  What about the one a person takes when they become a military member, a police officer, a fireman, etc..
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That is a valid question.

The Church has always maintained that certain oaths represent a clarification of intent for legal purposes {such as those about which you refer; military, testimonial oaths in court, etc} and as such are significantly different than other forms of oaths such as those involving Freemasonry or frivolous oath-taking that is subterfuge to hide a lie.  Christ's teaching on oaths reflects this and is related to his admonition to "Let your yea be yea and nay, nay" and the commandment not to take the Lord's name in vain.  Ofttimes {we've all heard it} folks will "swear to God" to emphasize a lie, which is the taking of God's name in vain.  Or, they may assert that unless they TAKE an oath their word doesn't have to be fully truthful {that is, "But I didn't SWEAR on it!!!"}.  This is a violation of the Commandment and is the point of Christ's teaching.

This is what I referred to above regarding the breadth of Catholic teaching.  In short, not all "oaths" are treated the same since they differ in meaning and intent.

For more, see Catechism of the Catholic Church 2149 and following.

Your's is a good question though and addresses the confusion of many on the subject.

As for those who have left the Catholic faith, that is true, many have, and many have converted TO the Catholic faith.  I am a convert, as is my wife and my three adult children.  All of us came from a Protestant background.  For myself, my father was a Methodist minister and I myself hold a Master's Degree from a Methodist Theological Seminary.   My wife was a Baptist whose father was a leader in her Baptist denomination.  I spent my life studying the doctrines of the various Protestant sects and the Bible, and it was primarily from study of the Bible that I was drawn to the Catholic Church.

There is no doubt that the teaching of the Church is hard.  A "narrow gate that is hard to get through" is how I heard "Someone" put it...  Thank God for grace to persevere!
Link Posted: 12/23/2016 4:57:28 PM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:
That your beliefs run counter to that taught by the Catholic Church comes as no surprise to me, since if they were in agreement you would be a Catholic and would leave Freemasonry behind which, who knows, could happen in the future.
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As a sixth generation Freemason I sincerely doubt that.  What I was trying to get was why the Catholic church is so vehemently opposed to Freemasonry.  It can't really be the reasons cited, because an honest examination clearly shows that all the reasons you stated, are not equally applied.  The church has taken many steps to ecumenically reconcile differences with other Christian denominations.  Yet, with respect to a fraternity, which the church has stated is not a religion, it continues (for lack of a better term) to persecute Freemasons.  

The bottom line, for me, is it's obvious that the Catholic church for some reason sees Freemasonry as a threat to the church.  Because if anything would threaten the church's "doctrine", it would be other Christian denominations.  I suppose it's because Freemasonry teaches and acknowledges that man has his own personal relationship with G-d.  It seems the church believes man cannot do that on his own.  It is necessary for others to interpret the message and the will of G-d.  Then man's interpretation must be rigidly followed, to the letter, before one can be considered faithful.  All those that disagree get kicked off the island.  

I really find that quite arrogant, particularly since Christ was a devout Jew, his message was clear, easy to understand, unfiltered and meant for all mankind.

Thanks for the insight.  Or as Freemasons say, "More Light."
Link Posted: 12/23/2016 6:09:33 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:  I suppose it's because Freemasonry teaches and acknowledges that man has his own personal relationship with G-d.  It seems the church believes man cannot do that on his own.  It is necessary for others to interpret the message and the will of G-d.
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Your questions here can be answered if you understand the doctrines of the Church.

Your statement here gets very close to a part of it.

In that regards, the Catholic Church affirms the doctrine that man cannot have a proper and full relationship with God outside the teachings of the Church.  We are not purely individuals.  And to that I would agree.

Anyone can pick up any religious writing and make an opinion about it or establish a personal belief, naturally.  Many do.   Anyone can read the Bible and make a personal interpretation of any and all passages therein.  And many have.  The plethora and increasing number of sects, denominations and groups makes that plain. But are those interpretations all accurate?  Well, they can't be if they stand in conflict with each other.  Thus at the core of the problem is authority and by what authority it is that a person asserts and affirms any given doctrine.  The Church teaches as She has always taught;  all doctrines are not the same and they are not all correct.  2 Peter 1:20 denies the validity of individual interpretation of the Scriptures.  The question is then begged "Who has that authority to order faith and morals?"

The answer according to the Catholic faith is the Church, granted that authority by Christ as documented in Scripture, the Church who protects the ancient teaching and passes it along to each generation.

As for your leaving Freemasonry behind, you may very well be correct.  But your conversion to the Catholic faith would be no greater a "miracle" than mine, I can assure you.  What you possess as a personal history with Freemasonry I possess in Protestantism, personally and through many generations of ancestors, generations that include many pastors.
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