 Duffy
Battle Arms Development
Dealer
Joined: Jan 2001  USA
 Posts: 13525 Feedback: 100% (50) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/25/2010 9:08:44 PM
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Aimless
Staff: AR15 forums and Equipment Exchange
Site Staff
Joined: Sep 2001 NY, USA
Posts: 89616 Feedback: 100% (46) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/25/2010 9:13:24 PM
Originally Posted By Austin_Nichols: Ok, last last hijack! Duff, I get that but I'd put it this way; if I ask your age, am I implying that you look either young or old? I get stopped at Walmart all the time when those damn blu-rays set off the alarm and I take no offense at being asked for my receipt. What do journalists call it? Full disclosure? Hell, I don't know, I think now I'm getting loopy. Must be all this after turkey bourbon I'm enjoying! Happy Thanksgiving to you too my friend! Edward was pretty cool about your comments about him, particularly since you have had an account here long enough that you should know better; but you're just continuing to bicker here over nothing. It's time to for you to bow gracefully out of this thread. If you want to continue this take it to e-mails or IMs. |
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GoatBoy
"Code Monkey"
Administrator
Joined: Nov 2000 NY, USA
Posts: 14227 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/25/2010 11:45:51 PM
It's funny to be brought into this discussion and see general intolerance. Why?
First off, I think it's ugly and probably would avoid it, but I don't pass on things because of their looks (except women!) and would handle this (ok, or them!) and formulate my own opinion from experience. Secondly, I realize this was put in the wrong forum, but Edward's not on the site as often as many of us and just wanted a genuine discussion on a product. It was with the purest intentions as he is a total firearm fanatic, and when he finds something he likes, he wants to get other thoughts on it. Anyone who doubts him or his reasons is missing more point than one. Edward is an honorable guy and a great friend. As it happen, he's also my brother so it works out well. Third, TECHNICAL discussions should not cause stupidity to ooze out of people or spark emotional responses. This is a place to talk about gear, innovation, technique, and support the good guys! Companies out there who are breaking into the AR market should not get laughed at because they are new, they should be embraced because the more minds set to making improvements to the platform, the better! Long ago a guy named Kurt made piston conversions for ARs and he was seen as a bit strange. Now piston systems are common and Kurt's gone from us. He was a great guy and I was proud to have known him. BUT, if he had been insulted and laughed at for his "crazy" ideas, then many of us would be lesser men for it. This discussion should have been a simple one about a product and initial thoughts. (See my ugly comments above.) Having the CHOICE to play with a new toy and try it out, is what makes this country great. If we ruin that by chasing people away, we are the ones who lose. Now I return you back to the discussion about the AR grip/rail/brick. 
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Austin_Nichols
Member
Team Member
Joined: Dec 2001 VA, USA
Posts: 652 Feedback: 100% (69) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/26/2010 12:46:36 AM
GoatBoy your comments about Kurt brought back a lot of memories; his passing was a complete surprise until BILLBO schooled me up back in May. What a loss and RIP Kurt.
Choice in our industry, even if it's not one you'd personally make, is nothing but good for gun nuts like us. Good points in your post and thanks for them. |
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LaRue_Tactical
Member
Industry Partner
Joined: Mar 2006 TX, USA
Posts: 14858 Feedback: 100% (168) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/26/2010 9:05:08 AM
This is the banter I was talking about ...
Army Small Arms Requirements office Sometimes I find I'm too deep in busted taps to know all there is to know.
ML Originally Posted By txblkht72:
I have been using this product for the last 8 months. Granted, not everyone likes it. The gun community is very picky about stuff. But my Company loved it. We saw a very positive response to it. I was producing a concept carbine to take to my friends at the Army Small Arms Requirements office when I found this. But unlike most, I saw more than just some new fangled rail. I spoke with Mr Brixius and he eagerly joined in on my simple idea. I am just a SGT in the Infantry. No fancy claims to fame, just experience. The Requirements office liked the idea and has even recomended pairing the IGRIS up with another system for evaluation. I agree it is exspensive, but if your shooting style fits it, how can that be wrong. Breaking the system down is easy. You just have to pull one extra take down pin. I have come to really appreciate this system. I currently use it with a PWS piston operated upper. I use it all the time in my classes and range time. I bet a lot of you just looked and said no way. Try it. You might like it. How many other upgrades were treated like crap, then one day, all of a sudden, they became the things to have. Try it before you slam it. And if you knew, the direction they were heading, you might think twice. And by the way, NO THEY DID NOT PAY ME OFF FOR THIS OR OFFER ANYTHING. Just a satisfied Combat Infantryman. |
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Posted: 11/26/2010 7:53:44 PM
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
This is the banter I was talking about ... Army Small Arms Requirements office Sometimes I find I'm too deep in busted taps to know all there is to know.
ML Originally Posted By txblkht72:
I have been using this product for the last 8 months. Granted, not everyone likes it. The gun community is very picky about stuff. But my Company loved it. We saw a very positive response to it. I was producing a concept carbine to take to my friends at the Army Small Arms Requirements office when I found this. But unlike most, I saw more than just some new fangled rail. I spoke with Mr Brixius and he eagerly joined in on my simple idea. I am just a SGT in the Infantry. No fancy claims to fame, just experience. The Requirements office liked the idea and has even recomended pairing the IGRIS up with another system for evaluation. I agree it is exspensive, but if your shooting style fits it, how can that be wrong. Breaking the system down is easy. You just have to pull one extra take down pin. I have come to really appreciate this system. I currently use it with a PWS piston operated upper. I use it all the time in my classes and range time. I bet a lot of you just looked and said no way. Try it. You might like it. How many other upgrades were treated like crap, then one day, all of a sudden, they became the things to have. Try it before you slam it. And if you knew, the direction they were heading, you might think twice. And by the way, NO THEY DID NOT PAY ME OFF FOR THIS OR OFFER ANYTHING. Just a satisfied Combat Infantryman. I Googled Army Small Arms Requirements office with no luck |
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Posted: 11/26/2010 9:11:30 PM
[Last Edit: 11/26/2010 9:26:14 PM by txblkht72]
Try Small Arms Branch, Soldier Requirements Division. The Civilian In charge is a Mr Pavlick. It is at Ft Benning. I would post his number, but need to ask him first. So here is my info, My Name is SGT Adam Fitzer. I am an Infantryman in the US Army. I have served 39 Months in Iraq. Look me up or what ever floats your boat. Ask David Tubb (Superior Shooting Systems), Mr Drake ( of MAGPUL), John Brixius (Grauer) or Todd Tutle (PWS) about the project. They were all involved. The end product was shown in June. Any questions? Feel free to ask as apposed to saying I am a liar
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ragedracer1977
proud papa
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2007 AZ, USA
Posts: 15042 Feedback: 100% (18) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/28/2010 7:44:59 PM
[Last Edit: 11/28/2010 7:46:25 PM by ragedracer1977]
Originally Posted By EdwardAvila:
Part of this is the ergonomics of placing said grip higher up and just underneath the barrel, 
I'm trying to understand what you mean. Looking at the picture, it looks like the "bottom" of the "top" of the grip, where your index finger would rest is even with or just below the delta ring. If I was using a magwell grip, my index finger would be touching the delta ring, so it seems my hand would be at the same height relative to the barrel. (I'm worn out and grammar sucked, thus the edit) |
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EdwardAvila 
Administrator
Joined: Nov 2000 NY, USA
 Posts: 2137 Feedback: 100% (38) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/28/2010 8:53:06 PM
Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:
I'm trying to understand what you mean. Looking at the picture, it looks like the "bottom" of the "top" of the grip, where your index finger would rest is even with or just below the delta ring. If I was using a magwell grip, my index finger would be touching the delta ring, so it seems my hand would be at the same height relative to the barrel. What I was trying to say (looking back to the context in which it was said) Part of this is the ergonomics of placing said grip higher up and just underneath the barrel, as well as eliminating the rear side rails to provide thumb rests for the support hand and well located tape switch mounting. This cannot be optimized without a dedicated rail because you would lose some of those benefits.
was that the reason for a dedicated rail/grip vs. attaching the vertical grip to an existing rail is that it will allow you to place your hand higher up (closer to the barrel) vs. where it would be if the vertical grip portion of this were attached to another rail system (recognizing this distance may not be much). The larger factor is that the elimination of the side rails on this further enhances the ergonomics of the grip, provides for a thumb rest, etc. where a traditional quad rail would be wider. Certainly, with nothing on the rifle, your hand could be touching the barrel (extreme case), but if you were going to attach this grip to a lower rail, that would use up some non-negligible amount of space. You are correct where your grip is on the mag well, as you are up under the delta ring, but as soon as you move that hand forward (and that is the KEY to this grip) it will run into conflict with the lower rail. Certainly these issues will be addressed and mitigated as much as possible, as I know they are coming out with a "modular" version that does in fact attach to existing rails. Hope that helps. |
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ragedracer1977
proud papa
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2007 AZ, USA
Posts: 15043 Feedback: 100% (18) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/28/2010 11:34:45 PM
Originally Posted By EdwardAvila:
Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:
I'm trying to understand what you mean. Looking at the picture, it looks like the "bottom" of the "top" of the grip, where your index finger would rest is even with or just below the delta ring. If I was using a magwell grip, my index finger would be touching the delta ring, so it seems my hand would be at the same height relative to the barrel. What I was trying to say (looking back to the context in which it was said) Part of this is the ergonomics of placing said grip higher up and just underneath the barrel, as well as eliminating the rear side rails to provide thumb rests for the support hand and well located tape switch mounting. This cannot be optimized without a dedicated rail because you would lose some of those benefits.
was that the reason for a dedicated rail/grip vs. attaching the vertical grip to an existing rail is that it will allow you to place your hand higher up (closer to the barrel) vs. where it would be if the vertical grip portion of this were attached to another rail system (recognizing this distance may not be much). The larger factor is that the elimination of the side rails on this further enhances the ergonomics of the grip, provides for a thumb rest, etc. where a traditional quad rail would be wider. Certainly, with nothing on the rifle, your hand could be touching the barrel (extreme case), but if you were going to attach this grip to a lower rail, that would use up some non-negligible amount of space. You are correct where your grip is on the mag well, as you are up under the delta ring, but as soon as you move that hand forward (and that is the KEY to this grip) it will run into conflict with the lower rail. Certainly these issues will be addressed and mitigated as much as possible, as I know they are coming out with a "modular" version that does in fact attach to existing rails. Hope that helps. Thanks! |
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Posted: 11/29/2010 4:36:30 PM
O.K. well, I ordered the sys last Saturday, and I recieved it in the mail on Friday.
They charged me $10- for shipping and the postage on the nice plain white box was about $12.00. I opened the box up to find it well padded, I'm using it to hold a bunch of other AR parts I have plus the foregrip I took off of my AR to install the sys. The directions were very good, with pictures and text to run the install step by step. I had the thing installed in about 10 minutes, I had never taken the foregrip off of my AR before and I had to remove the two front strap loops as well. I like the fit & finish of the sys, it's very nice and tight. All of the pieces fit together with no play, no rattle. The takedown pin could be a lil longer, or the head a double so it's more easily pulled, but other than that I like it very much. Holding the rifle is easy and comfortable and doing drills around the house acting like a badass was really easy. The grip portion of the sys is hollow and has a hole in the bottom so it won't carry water and you can route a cord out that way. The front top of the grip portion has notches cast in the webbing of the reinforcing structure to allow for the routing of a cord for a remote power supply or for switches you might mount on the sys, I can see where it would be really easy to route all cords and wires inside the sys for a snag free rifle. The mag well is very generous and makes it easy for a newbee like me to slap in a mag without looking, I have been doing mag exchanges without leaving my target, eyes up- it's nice. I suppose if I had some more training I wouldn't apreciate this feature as much, but the mags fall free everytime and the new one's slap in no problem. I haven't tried to fit a side by side mag yet, I do think that will be a problem, or if you have the mags that are taped/joined together so you can just flip them over and slap them back in... that might not work. I wanted a front rail sys for the rifle and I got a very nice one, plus I have the grip to use for a nice magwell hold, it's out a bit further and so it feels right. If I had a stick grip back there I would have to move it or remove it to flip the rifle open, but I can just pull the rear pin and flip the sys forward and then open the rifle up. I like that it all stays attached so nothing gets lost. I will do some more shooting with it, and show some guys at the range and then post up some more. so far I like it alot. |
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Posted: 11/29/2010 10:31:08 PM
Wow, a friend of mine told me there was a review on the Grauer on ar15.com finally so I figured I’d see what everyone had to say and I must say I’m really surprised at the comments. I never comment on these forums but this thread has drawn me out and I’ll even post pictures if I can figure it out.
I’ve had mine for about six months now. I got it because my brother gave me a rifle from USA Tactical Firearms with my name on it so I wanted to build something a little different than all my other rifles but still keep it simple, Flashlight and a dot is all I really need. As an instructor and competitor, and having met most of the “top authorities” mentioned in this thread I can tell you all of those guys can make their technique work, they are very good at what they do. However, I can tell you from a lot of experience that if you spend the day with an AR, no matter how big and bad or schooled in a technique you are, by the middle of the day you will be holding your AR just in front of the hinge pin with your support hand. For most 16 inch carbines that’s around the center balance point with your typical crap clipped on. There’s a lot of talk about holding your rifle with your arm fully extended here. Now, unless you are shooting a long barreled AR with a rifle length hand guard, any full grown man will be holding onto the bare barrel (just add BBQ sauce). I would think most of us shoot 14-16 inch guns and maybe have a dot sight, flashlight, vertical grip and at least one other Gucci accessory. If you actually go out and train or practice with your rifle, see how many reloads you have to do before you stop using the vertical grip and move to the front of the mag well after a reload (if you don’t train or practice with your rifle, stop reading this long ass comment, it doesn’t pertain to you). Go pick up your rifle by the front of the magwell, don’t you wish the magwell was about 2.5 inches forward? It is with the Grauer (actually 2.25). Let me address a few comments: The guy that hates Magwells: I have seen the best shooters dick up a reload, nothing wrong with a big funnel. The guy that thinks it’s too big: It’s smaller than my ARMS hand guard and narrow where my thumb goes. You must really hate my Dot sight….oh, wait it’s a Trijicon so you are probably ok with it. The guy that thinks it looks fugly: Everyone that has seen it and used it want’s one, including Teams guys that I have worked with. I think that says something. The Guy that thinks it’s too much money: Me too. But we have no problem spending $750 on an Aimpoint w/larue mount, $200 on a stock, $300 on a handguard, $150 on a comp, $500 on a flashlight, $2000 on a rifle and, oh yea, $400 on a thousand rounds of ammo that I’ll burn up in a day. (If my wife is reading this, I didn’t pay this kind of money for my stuff; I won it at the prize table) I’m sure the company want’s you all to buy one but personally I’m glad you guys don’t like it, I like my gun to be different (and shoot better) |
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Fantomas
When the Tide is out you can see who swims naked
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2009 MO, USA
Posts: 2880 Feedback: 100% (116) Link To This Post |
Posted: 11/29/2010 11:15:26 PM
Originally Posted By Plum:
Wow, a friend of mine told me there was a review on the Grauer on ar15.com finally so I figured I’d see what everyone had to say and I must say I’m really surprised at the comments. I never comment on these forums but this thread has drawn me out and I’ll even post pictures if I can figure it out. I’ve had mine for about six months now. I got it because my brother gave me a rifle from USA Tactical Firearms with my name on it so I wanted to build something a little different than all my other rifles but still keep it simple, Flashlight and a dot is all I really need. As an instructor and competitor, and having met most of the “top authorities” mentioned in this thread I can tell you all of those guys can make their technique work, they are very good at what they do. However, I can tell you from a lot of experience that if you spend the day with an AR, no matter how big and bad or schooled in a technique you are, by the middle of the day you will be holding your AR just in front of the hinge pin with your support hand. For most 16 inch carbines that’s around the center balance point with your typical crap clipped on. There’s a lot of talk about holding your rifle with your arm fully extended here. Now, unless you are shooting a long barreled AR with a rifle length hand guard, any full grown man will be holding onto the bare barrel (just add BBQ sauce). I would think most of us shoot 14-16 inch guns and maybe have a dot sight, flashlight, vertical grip and at least one other Gucci accessory. If you actually go out and train or practice with your rifle, see how many reloads you have to do before you stop using the vertical grip and move to the front of the mag well after a reload (if you don’t train or practice with your rifle, stop reading this long ass comment, it doesn’t pertain to you). Go pick up your rifle by the front of the magwell, don’t you wish the magwell was about 2.5 inches forward? It is with the Grauer (actually 2.25). Let me address a few comments: The guy that hates Magwells: I have seen the best shooters dick up a reload, nothing wrong with a big funnel. The guy that thinks it’s too big: It’s smaller than my ARMS hand guard and narrow where my thumb goes. You must really hate my Dot sight….oh, wait it’s a Trijicon so you are probably ok with it. The guy that thinks it looks fugly: Everyone that has seen it and used it want’s one, including Teams guys that I have worked with. I think that says something. The Guy that thinks it’s too much money: Me too. But we have no problem spending $750 on an Aimpoint w/larue mount, $200 on a stock, $300 on a handguard, $150 on a comp, $500 on a flashlight, $2000 on a rifle and, oh yea, $400 on a thousand rounds of ammo that I’ll burn up in a day. (If my wife is reading this, I didn’t pay this kind of money for my stuff; I won it at the prize table) I’m sure the company want’s you all to buy one but personally I’m glad you guys don’t like it, I like my gun to be different (and shoot better) I like to see Pictures / proof |
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Posted: 11/29/2010 11:19:17 PM
I was just looking at how to post pictures. any good sties to load them to?
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Posted: 11/30/2010 5:57:51 PM
Originally Posted By Plum:
Wow, a friend of mine told me there was a review on the Grauer on ar15.com finally so I figured I’d see what everyone had to say and I must say I’m really surprised at the comments. I never comment on these forums but this thread has drawn me out and I’ll even post pictures if I can figure it out. I’ve had mine for about six months now. I got it because my brother gave me a rifle from USA Tactical Firearms with my name on it so I wanted to build something a little different than all my other rifles but still keep it simple, Flashlight and a dot is all I really need. As an instructor and competitor, and having met most of the “top authorities” mentioned in this thread I can tell you all of those guys can make their technique work, they are very good at what they do. However, I can tell you from a lot of experience that if you spend the day with an AR, no matter how big and bad or schooled in a technique you are, by the middle of the day you will be holding your AR just in front of the hinge pin with your support hand. For most 16 inch carbines that’s around the center balance point with your typical crap clipped on. There’s a lot of talk about holding your rifle with your arm fully extended here. Now, unless you are shooting a long barreled AR with a rifle length hand guard, any full grown man will be holding onto the bare barrel (just add BBQ sauce). I would think most of us shoot 14-16 inch guns and maybe have a dot sight, flashlight, vertical grip and at least one other Gucci accessory. If you actually go out and train or practice with your rifle, see how many reloads you have to do before you stop using the vertical grip and move to the front of the mag well after a reload (if you don’t train or practice with your rifle, stop reading this long ass comment, it doesn’t pertain to you). Go pick up your rifle by the front of the magwell, don’t you wish the magwell was about 2.5 inches forward? It is with the Grauer (actually 2.25). Let me address a few comments: The guy that hates Magwells: I have seen the best shooters dick up a reload, nothing wrong with a big funnel. The guy that thinks it’s too big: It’s smaller than my ARMS hand guard and narrow where my thumb goes. You must really hate my Dot sight….oh, wait it’s a Trijicon so you are probably ok with it. The guy that thinks it looks fugly: Everyone that has seen it and used it want’s one, including Teams guys that I have worked with. I think that says something. The Guy that thinks it’s too much money: Me too. But we have no problem spending $750 on an Aimpoint w/larue mount, $200 on a stock, $300 on a handguard, $150 on a comp, $500 on a flashlight, $2000 on a rifle and, oh yea, $400 on a thousand rounds of ammo that I’ll burn up in a day. (If my wife is reading this, I didn’t pay this kind of money for my stuff; I won it at the prize table) I’m sure the company want’s you all to buy one but personally I’m glad you guys don’t like it, I like my gun to be different (and shoot better) hmm. 1st post on this topic? Quite a few new accounts on this very post. No problem spending money on products that we LIKE. I wouldn't use this Grauer product even if it was given to me for free. Just my honest opinion. |
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Posted: 12/1/2010 9:13:31 PM
[Last Edit: 12/1/2010 11:04:29 PM by txblkht72]
What does new accounts have to do with anything? This is the second time I have seen that statement on here. Are new accounts not aloud to voice their thoughts on AR-15.com? Just curous. And based on what, do you and all the other 4 pages of negative opinions, get their strong dislike of the rail? Have any of you actualy picked it up or used it? Instead of looking and saying, " that thing is crap", why not get some first hand use and then develop an opinion? If you haven't test drove the car, how can you really know about it? I am pretty sure that is how all the magazines and shows do it. Or are most of you waiting for someone famous to tell you how to feel? I have what I like too, but I tried it all out before I decided if it was for me or not. And I sure didn't try to tell others it sucked because I didnt like it.
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Posted: 12/2/2010 4:12:07 AM
Originally Posted By txblkht72:
What does new accounts have to do with anything? This is the second time I have seen that statement on here. Are new accounts not aloud to voice their thoughts on AR-15.com? Just curous. And based on what, do you and all the other 4 pages of negative opinions, get their strong dislike of the rail? Have any of you actualy picked it up or used it? Instead of looking and saying, " that thing is crap", why not get some first hand use and then develop an opinion? If you haven't test drove the car, how can you really know about it? I am pretty sure that is how all the magazines and shows do it. Or are most of you waiting for someone famous to tell you how to feel? I have what I like too, but I tried it all out before I decided if it was for me or not. And I sure didn't try to tell others it sucked because I didnt like it. at $400 a pop it isn't cheap to just "try out" and no I haven't picked one up but looking at the pics and video on their website I'm not inclined to buy one. Plain and simple. A good rail w/ a VFG can accomplish the same thing cheaper and with less bulk. There is no extra step to disassembling the upper for cleaning or maintenance. Product needs refinement. |
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Posted: 12/2/2010 8:45:34 AM
Neither are Daniel Defense and Knight Industries cheap, yet they are bought by many. And I disagree on accomplishing the same thing, I own one and can tell you they are not. And that horrible extra 2 seconds to get the grip take down pin pushed so you can break open the reciever is no different than popping both pins on the lower when you have the grip that close in. This is the stuff I am talking about. I didn't buy it before I tried it. I saw it at the Shot Show and played with it. Liked the idea, And now love it. But I only use the close grip when clearing houses or tight areas. I still use forward grip for open area manuevers, but that is my preference. I get you may not like the mag hold. But, again, try it first, then say it isn't worth it in your eyes. I am not saying you must like it, only to see it first then make a call. If you are in Texas, look me up. Would be glad to show ya the rail. I am in the Ft Hood area
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Posted: 12/2/2010 9:10:52 AM
Originally Posted By KodiakSpirit:
If I had a stick grip back there I would have to move it or remove it to flip the rifle open, but I can just pull the rear pin and flip the sys forward and then open the rifle up Originally Posted By txblkht72:
And that horrible extra 2 seconds to get the grip take down pin pushed so you can break open the reciever is no different than popping both pins on the lower when you have the grip that close in. When you have a vfg out the same distance as the grip on the IGRS there is no need to remove it or pop both pins to open the receiver. txblkht72 do you have any pics of the rifle you put together? |
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Posted: 12/2/2010 1:02:44 PM
Originally Posted By Plum:
I was just looking at how to post pictures. any good sties to load them to? pics here |
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Posted: 12/2/2010 3:50:13 PM
[Last Edit: 12/2/2010 3:59:45 PM by txblkht72]
Ya I do. go to this site http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=244832&id=749598007&saved#!/album.php?aid=244832&id=749598007
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Posted: 12/2/2010 8:04:04 PM
well seems as though this site has a stake in this product: Grauer for sale
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EdwardAvila
Administrator
Joined: Nov 2000 NY, USA
Posts: 2139 Feedback: 100% (38) Link To This Post |
Posted: 12/2/2010 10:31:13 PM
Originally Posted By Renn:
well seems as though this site has a stake in this product: Grauer for sale  |
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Posted: 12/3/2010 1:08:44 AM
Originally Posted By EdwardAvila:
Originally Posted By Renn:
well seems as though this site has a stake in this product: Grauer for sale http://i45.tinypic.com/10qbd4l.jpg Can I haz cape and shield?  |
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