Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:
It all comes down to the simple fact that Lincoln wouldn't have had cause to do the things he did, right or wrong, or for better or worse, if the south hadn't been so hell bent on trying to preserve slavery as an institution, and expanding it into the west to try and maintain some sort of a chance at slave state representational parity with the north.

The South could have imported tons of poor European labor as technically "free" farm hands, paid them less in salary or upkeep than a slave was "worth" and worked them harder since they'd have been in essence disposable unlike a slave. Doing this in the northern factories and cities is what led to the secondary economic and population disparities that southern apologists like to try and prop up as being "equal" causes to the Civil War along with slavery. (And allowed the north continually swell the ranks of the Union Army as cannon fodder...)

Slavery caused secession, and secession caused "Lincoln", period.

And no amount of whining about "pride", "traditions", states rights (state powers really, people have rights, state's don't...) southern belles or genteel "howdy do's" will erase that fact.

Originally Posted By AJ_Dual:


Uh... no. You are assuming facts in my argument that aren't there at all.

In no way does any of that excuse Lincoln's usurpation of the Constitution, I'm merely pointing out that southern apologists who like to engage in sophistry and pretend the Civil War was about economics, electoral abuses of the north, states rights (POWERS! "states rights" bothers me as much as those who say America is a "democracy"...) etc. and that slavery was merely a "side issue" have only themselves and slavery to blame for Lincoln.

Making everyone and the states a "slave" to the fed.gov in political terms, at least in the context of how the Framers originally envisioned the United States, isn't exactly the best way of going about freeing other slaves.

Unless someone seriously wants to go on record and argue that they think Lincoln would have run roughshod over the Constitution, Congress, and the Judiciary as he did even if there were no slavery, no secession, or no Civil War.

I only think Lincoln did three good/great things in his entire Presidency.

1. Preserved the Union. (At too high a cost in terms of the Constitution, and expansion of Federal power...For what the United States COULD have been... Kobiashi Maru... If one would forgive the Star Trek reference.)
2. Delivered the Gettysburg Address.
3. Freed the slaves. (With full recognition what an insincere instrument the Emancipation Proclamation truly was, only applying in Confederate/Rebel states, exempting Union slave states, and Lincoln's own words that he'd have either freed or left the slaves in bondage, whichever would have preserved the Union..)

All else? A disaster of monumental proportions.

That's the point I'm making, no more, no less.

tl/dr version: South wants to bitch about Lincoln and "states rights"? It's their own damn fault, and took all of us with them.

Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
Look at my location, and then listen to my words.

I told you so.

Lincoln ripped apart the constitution like no president before him. Illegal taxation of states toto force revenue to flow into northern ports. Illegal seizure of ships and men to enforce blockades to set up to enforce the tax policy. Invasion and reinforcent of soverirgn military facilities in a foreign nation ( Confederate Stars, South Carolina).

Many other thing as well, and every single one of then part of a Federal, and executive branch power grab as never seen before, resulting in state's rights being weakened dramatically, and setting precedent for them to be even further eroded over time, winding up with what we have right now, a tyranny that would have our founders in armed rebellion. The fact that we have right quasi dictator in office, and that people are accepting of it, is due directly to the acts of Lincoln.

Wilson, FDR, Johnson, and others.would not have had the mechanisms in place,.nor the political precedence to implement what they did.

Lincoln set the stage that moved us opposite the direction intended for the Republic.

Any grammatical or punctuation errors are solely the fault of this damn auto correct on my phone.