ARCHIVED
 CTbuilder1
R-CT
Team Member
Joined: Sep 2006  CT, USA
 Posts: 18180 Feedback: 100% (29) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/21/2012 5:50:20 PM
Originally Posted By Andr0id:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By Andr0id:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
But when a gun company only sells a product that they designed and manufactured to Military or LE, they are bashed to no end. It's their product, they can sell it to whoever they want. And they deserve all that bashing and more. Either you believe that the 2nd amendment applies to everybody or you're no better than some commie arms manufacturer in China that doesn't sell to the general populace either. It has nothing to do with the second amendment. It's a product that a company sells. If they don't want to deal with the general public as a consumer (and who can blame them), that's up to them. Some of these companies do just fine with government contracts. They aren't saying "you can't own a gun," they are saying "it's not worth it to us to sell this open market and deal with all the problems that can bring." It's funny how entitlement mentality is accepted for some groups and frowned upon for others. Yep, companies shouldn't feel entitled to not hear people complain when they make decisions the consumer doesn't like. But unlike China, they can't send the police to throw you in jail when they don't like what you say about them. If a company doesn't sell you something you are not the consumer, you are an onlooker. This concept should be fairly simple for any reasonable person to understand. |
|
|
|
Madcap72
I wish all the ladies, were holes in the road...
Team Member
Joined: Aug 2009  IRN
Posts: 15776 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/21/2012 5:57:00 PM
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1: BUt, BUT, the 2A!!!1! Originally Posted By Andr0id: Originally Posted By CTbuilder1: Originally Posted By Andr0id: Originally Posted By CTbuilder1: But when a gun company only sells a product that they designed and manufactured to Military or LE, they are bashed to no end. It's their product, they can sell it to whoever they want. And they deserve all that bashing and more. Either you believe that the 2nd amendment applies to everybody or you're no better than some commie arms manufacturer in China that doesn't sell to the general populace either. It has nothing to do with the second amendment. It's a product that a company sells. If they don't want to deal with the general public as a consumer (and who can blame them), that's up to them. Some of these companies do just fine with government contracts. They aren't saying "you can't own a gun," they are saying "it's not worth it to us to sell this open market and deal with all the problems that can bring." It's funny how entitlement mentality is accepted for some groups and frowned upon for others. Yep, companies shouldn't feel entitled to not hear people complain when they make decisions the consumer doesn't like. But unlike China, they can't send the police to throw you in jail when they don't like what you say about them. If a company doesn't sell you something you are not the consumer, you are an onlooker. This concept should be fairly simple for any reasonable person to understand.  |
|
|
P08
WAIT FOR IT!
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2001 IL, USA
Posts: 12201 Feedback: 100% (14) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/21/2012 6:02:55 PM
I just got home from SHOT last night. I am a ffl, not a big one but still a dealer. I go every now and then just to see stuff that is new in person. When I go to visit a distributor they don't have things out to look at, so if I want to see it I have to buy one. So that's not gonna happen! But the show was crowded, lots of LE there as well. I found it funny when going by the Korth booth a guy was asking to look at the $32,000 damascus Korth revolver. The guy in the booth said to him, "it's right there, look at it!"
 Meanwhile the Perazzi booth had $250,000 4 gun sets out for anyone to pick up and play like they are shooting trap!Oh and OP, yes the zombie thing is not officially gone retard!There was even a guy dressed as a zombie walking around the show on Wednesday! |
|
|
thirsty
I am epic win
Team Member
Joined: Feb 2006 NY, USA
Posts: 6000 Feedback: 100% (22) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/21/2012 6:11:55 PM
It was nice to get out and bump elbows with the manufacturers. I'm not an FFL but I helped my dealer pick out new inventory for his shop.
It was a great time, being in Vegas in general, and I look forward to next year. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2012 6:24:21 PM
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By Andr0id:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By Andr0id:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
But when a gun company only sells a product that they designed and manufactured to Military or LE, they are bashed to no end. It's their product, they can sell it to whoever they want. And they deserve all that bashing and more. Either you believe that the 2nd amendment applies to everybody or you're no better than some commie arms manufacturer in China that doesn't sell to the general populace either. It has nothing to do with the second amendment. It's a product that a company sells. If they don't want to deal with the general public as a consumer (and who can blame them), that's up to them. Some of these companies do just fine with government contracts. They aren't saying "you can't own a gun," they are saying "it's not worth it to us to sell this open market and deal with all the problems that can bring." It's funny how entitlement mentality is accepted for some groups and frowned upon for others. Yep, companies shouldn't feel entitled to not hear people complain when they make decisions the consumer doesn't like. But unlike China, they can't send the police to throw you in jail when they don't like what you say about them. If a company doesn't sell you something you are not the consumer, you are an onlooker. This concept should be fairly simple for any reasonable person to understand. And it should be fairly simple to understand that there is also the 1A that means onlookers are free to criticize such horseshit If they don't like it, either succumb to market pressure or grow a thicker skin. But items LE only ammo and LE only target is pretty much bullshit. There is no reasonable defense of it. It is simply the desire to pander to "big city" police depts that don't believe "civilians" should have the same products because they're somehow second rate. |
|
|
CTbuilder1
R-CT
Team Member
Joined: Sep 2006 CT, USA
Posts: 18185 Feedback: 100% (29) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/21/2012 6:37:02 PM
Originally Posted By Andr0id:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By Andr0id:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
Originally Posted By Andr0id:
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
But when a gun company only sells a product that they designed and manufactured to Military or LE, they are bashed to no end. It's their product, they can sell it to whoever they want. And they deserve all that bashing and more. Either you believe that the 2nd amendment applies to everybody or you're no better than some commie arms manufacturer in China that doesn't sell to the general populace either. It has nothing to do with the second amendment. It's a product that a company sells. If they don't want to deal with the general public as a consumer (and who can blame them), that's up to them. Some of these companies do just fine with government contracts. They aren't saying "you can't own a gun," they are saying "it's not worth it to us to sell this open market and deal with all the problems that can bring." It's funny how entitlement mentality is accepted for some groups and frowned upon for others. Yep, companies shouldn't feel entitled to not hear people complain when they make decisions the consumer doesn't like. But unlike China, they can't send the police to throw you in jail when they don't like what you say about them. If a company doesn't sell you something you are not the consumer, you are an onlooker. This concept should be fairly simple for any reasonable person to understand. And it should be fairly simple to understand that there is also the 1A that means onlookers are free to criticize such horseshit If they don't like it, either succumb to market pressure or grow a thicker skin. But items LE only ammo and LE only target is pretty much bullshit. There is no reasonable defense of it. It is simply the desire to pander to "big city" police depts that don't believe "civilians" should have the same products because they're somehow second rate. Yes, you are free to say whatever you want. No matter how wrong you may be. But once again, if they are not selling to you, you are not part of the market. I would love to have an MP7. But it's not going to happen. So I move forward with my life. I could beat my chest and post things like "fuck HK" or tell people on the internet why I am boycotting 500 different companies. But that would make me sound like a bratty little child and a first rate douche nozzle (which is exactly what they people who post these sort of things sound like.) I know people who could probably afford an F15. Something tells me Boeing isn't going to sell them one. I guess they are just anti civilian. |
|
|
|
Gunnerpalace
Team Member
Team Member
Joined: Jun 2009 MI, USA
Posts: 4748 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/21/2012 7:29:23 PM
Really?
I saw at least 4 youtubers with blogs that were bragging about being there. Maybe I'll go next year. |
|
|
|
InfiniteGrim
Member
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2009 PA, USA
Posts: 13392 Feedback: 100% (34) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/21/2012 7:35:34 PM
Originally Posted By Gunnerpalace:
Really? I saw at least 4 youtubers with blogs that were bragging about being there. Maybe I'll go next year. Thats what I'm talking about. |
|
|
|
Gunnerpalace
Team Member
Team Member
Joined: Jun 2009 MI, USA
Posts: 4750 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/21/2012 7:57:16 PM
Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
Originally Posted By Gunnerpalace:
Really? I saw at least 4 youtubers with blogs that were bragging about being there. Maybe I'll go next year. Thats what I'm talking about. (Squints) Sorry missed that, I just don't know how they are going to stop it, on the one hand you've got these guys running around range day and the show asking stupid questions and being obnoxious, but on the other hand that is free advertising for those companies. |
|
|
|
Chesh97
si vis pacem, para bellum
Team Member
Joined: Jun 2005 USA
Posts: 7591 Feedback: 100% (2) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/21/2012 8:21:20 PM
Originally Posted By ajm1911: Originally Posted By RFutch: Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim: Originally Posted By dogsplat: Originally Posted By Chesh97: My opinion is there should be a show tailored for the consumer. We are the ones, afterall, buying the products. You guys don't understand what SHOT is then. I think they do understand what SHOT is but they are saying their should be a consumer show, in addition to an industry show. Yes, this exactly. Have the "trade show" for manufacturers/dealers ONLY. Then also have a show for regular folks out there buying the products. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/21/2012 9:41:41 PM
There is no need for those of us not in the industry to be there thanks to folks like EdSr and his team covering the show for us.
I mean, obviously we miss out on the cool industry parties and so forth, but we need the industry to do the business they're in business to do. We need the retailers meeting the companies and striking deals we consumers benefit from. We need the media there to cover what is going on and tell the folks what we want like the ARX-160. |
|
|
|
juan223
Member
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2007 AZ, USA
Posts: 5150 Feedback: 100% (9) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/21/2012 10:09:47 PM
Originally Posted By P08:
There was even a guy dressed as a zombie walking around the show on Wednesday! LOL, yea I saw that dude.... |
|
|
|
juan223
Member
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2007 AZ, USA
Posts: 5151 Feedback: 100% (9) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/21/2012 10:12:16 PM
As far as the OP's post goes, I feel it is the state of the economy that kept many away. Vegas seemed much less crowded overall IMO.
|
|
|
|
AMUshooter10
Member
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2006 WI, USA
Posts: 313 Feedback: 100% (7) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/21/2012 11:07:50 PM
There did seem to be a few good deals if you made orders there. That was a plus. And I like to be able to put faces with names.
But I do wish when people decided to stop and chat that they wouldn't do it in the middle of the isle. |
|
|
ALASKANFIRE
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jul 2007 NV, USA
Posts: 5833 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/22/2012 12:28:54 AM
Originally Posted By Andr0id:
But items LE only ammo and LE only target is pretty much bullshit. There is no reasonable defense of it. It is simply the desire to pander to "big city" police depts that don't believe "civilians" should have the same products because they're somehow second rate. Only on the internet could a discussion about keeping uninvited rubberneckers out of SHOT turn into a Constitutional debate. You do realize a lot of "LE" ammo does not have excise tax paid on it and that is a major reason you dont see it. Couple that with the ammo companies being fairly busy in the last couple years and you get limited availability. This idea that the ammo manufacturers think of us citizens is laughable at best. Ignorance is bliss. SHOT is steadily slipping into the shitter and a major reason is a ton of people that have no business being there wasting everyones time and resources. There are several big shows across the country that are geared towards the consumer. SAR and the NRA show are two of them. I had a bunch of customers in Vegas(FFL's) that would see all their customers walking around the show, and then show up in their store with a stack of dealer price lists
|
|
|
ALASKANFIRE
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jul 2007 NV, USA
Posts: 5834 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/22/2012 12:31:40 AM
[Last Edit: 1/22/2012 12:39:28 AM by ALASKANFIRE]
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
"industry" is unfortunately hard to define. Do you allow bubba's bait shack with an annual budget of $20K to attend because they have an FFL but exclude public sector purchasing agents with multi-million dollar budgets who lack a FFL? I do not envy the show organizers in the task of keeping out the tourist while making sure the people with real money to spend are still allowed in. Industry is not hard to define at all. I have never heard of any buyers not being allowed in but I do not exactly know what a public sector purchasing agent is. Do you have a example? As a buyer they would seem to belong unless I am misunderstanding you? Originally Posted By LGK:
Once you allow the press in it stop being a trade show. It becomes an advisement venue. E3 keep pretending that they were still a trade show and when they try to enforce it, reality almost kill them. Companies started asking why are we spending millions on E3 when there only a hand full of people visiting our booth for the whole event. The truth about Shot Show is now an advisement venue. It allow vendors to get get their products notice in the general public and they are paying good money to be here. If Shot Show wants to be a trade show the first thing is to get rid of the press, cut down at least 50% of the vendors that is currently in the show, and stop all the seminars. About the only thing I agree with in your post is that the vendors should be reduced and more scrutinized or at the very least better organized. There is still a ton of business done at the show. I dont see what the press and Industry seminars have to do with it not being a trade show. Both of those benefit the industry. The seminars educate and the press gets the consumer riled up so they will go buy from their dealer. |
|
|
krayons
Member
Team Member
Joined: May 2008 UT, USA
Posts: 2646 Feedback: 100% (4) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/22/2012 12:50:55 AM
NRA show?
Originally Posted By Chesh97: My opinion is there should be a show tailored for the consumer. We are the ones, afterall, buying the products. |
|
|
|
weaponoutfitters
Member
Dealer
Joined: Mar 2011 WA, USA
Posts: 1111 Feedback: 100% (24) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/22/2012 4:17:18 AM
Vegas is fuggin expensive!
I've had the chance to go to SHOT many years in a row as a "tourist" off of friends FFLs, but factoring in food, housing, and entertainment (  ) Vegas is an expensive ass city to fly to just to play with guns.
Maybe i'm jaded, but I just don't see the value for the general consumer to fly there to handle guns that they'll soon be able to handle in gun stores. Maybe working with guns day in day out has desensitized me to the novelty of firearms. Friends of mine who were "tourists" were there for a few days chatting up manufacturers and getting swag. I spent all 4 days doing business, and still didn't get everything accomplished. Just as reference, the far more culturally mainstream AVN convention was probably 1/20th the size of the SHOT show: I did two laps around AVN in 2 hours. For SHOT, I walked around 10 miles every day at the show, went to a few private after hours events, and still didn't get everything I wanted to done. PS: Thanks to industry contacts, I got to meet a bunch of former and active HSLD badasses. They were all dressed super discretely, and I woulda never picked them out to be the legendary figures they were. I thought it was hilarious that these legit badasses were bumping shoulders with tacticool mall ninja types... only in Vegas! |
|
|
sandblaster
GO GATORS! GO TEBOW!
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2002  PAK
Posts: 1624 Feedback: 100% (45) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/22/2012 4:43:05 AM
Originally Posted By LGK:
Originally Posted By JohnnyC:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By RFutch:
Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
Originally Posted By RFutch:
Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim:
Originally Posted By dogsplat:
Originally Posted By Chesh97:
My opinion is there should be a show tailored for the consumer. We are the ones, afterall, buying the products.
You guys don't understand what SHOT is then. There are tons of people roaming around just for the hell of it. Right, and unless they work in the industry, they aren't supposed to be there. That's what this thread is about. "industry" is unfortunately hard to define. Do you allow bubba's bait shack with an annual budget of $20K to attend because they have an FFL but exclude public sector purchasing agents with multi-million dollar budgets who lack a FFL? I do not envy the show organizers in the task of keeping out the tourist while making sure the people with real money to spend are still allowed in. That's one of the problems. Sure, Bubba's Bait Shack should go, so should purchasing agents. The problem is the same thing that plagued E3 and CES where simply being employed by Circuit City or Best Buy got you a badge. All in all I don't have a huge problem with it, but if you're trying to shoot a YouTube video for your blog with 2,000 readers, and it's taking away time from client an manufacturer talking shop, you probably shouldn't be there. I wouldn't have a problem if they added a day and did media only, then shut out anyone who didn't have a real badge. And limit registration to 1 or 2 people per FFL, or purchasing agent, that way Bubba's Bait Shack presence more accurately reflects their business, and my their extended family taking a vacation to see some toys. Also would allow media unfettered access to the products to get their shit done, then the next day wouldn't have to deal with a million people trying to get pictures of their favorite booth babe. Once you allow the press in it stop being a trade show. It becomes an advisement venue. E3 keep pretending that they were still a trade show and when they try to enforce it, reality almost kill them. Companies started asking why are we spending millions on E3 when there only a hand full of people visiting our booth for the whole event. The truth about Shot Show is now an advisement venue. It allow vendors to get get their products notice in the general public and they are paying good money to be here. If Shot Show wants to be a trade show the first thing is to get rid of the press, cut down at least 50% of the vendors that is currently in the show, and stop all the seminars. TREES, they can grow Exponentially |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2012 8:41:49 AM
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
"industry" is unfortunately hard to define. Do you allow bubba's bait shack with an annual budget of $20K to attend because they have an FFL but exclude public sector purchasing agents with multi-million dollar budgets who lack a FFL? I do not envy the show organizers in the task of keeping out the tourist while making sure the people with real money to spend are still allowed in. Industry is not hard to define at all. I have never heard of any buyers not being allowed in but I do not exactly know what a public sector purchasing agent is. Do you have a example? As a buyer they would seem to belong unless I am misunderstanding you? LE was limited to forensic firearms examiners, RSO's and Trainers this year. The Lt who purchases our patrol rifles is none of those things. |
|
|
wildearp
Get off my lawn!
Team Member
Joined: Jun 2003 AZ, USA
Posts: 25146 Feedback: 100% (35) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/22/2012 9:12:41 AM
Originally Posted By RFutch: Originally Posted By InfiniteGrim: Originally Posted By dogsplat: Originally Posted By Chesh97: My opinion is there should be a show tailored for the consumer. We are the ones, afterall, buying the products. You guys don't understand what SHOT is then. It is a trade show. I have been to many trade shows, of various disciplines, in various places across the globe. I also buy more than the average joe and have the means. I am that guy that needs to go to the shot show, like a dealer, to see what is out there to buy. I do understand. I go to many gun stores, all over the US. It is painfully obvious to me, that the SHOT show is not accomplishing much of what is intended. Most dealers have the same, tired shit in their stores that they have had for the last 10 years. At least the jerky quality at gun shows is improving...............  |
|
|
ALASKANFIRE
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jul 2007 NV, USA
Posts: 5838 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/22/2012 1:50:46 PM
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
"industry" is unfortunately hard to define. Do you allow bubba's bait shack with an annual budget of $20K to attend because they have an FFL but exclude public sector purchasing agents with multi-million dollar budgets who lack a FFL? I do not envy the show organizers in the task of keeping out the tourist while making sure the people with real money to spend are still allowed in. Industry is not hard to define at all. I have never heard of any buyers not being allowed in but I do not exactly know what a public sector purchasing agent is. Do you have a example? As a buyer they would seem to belong unless I am misunderstanding you? LE was limited to forensic firearms examiners, RSO's and Trainers this year. The Lt who purchases our patrol rifles is none of those things. Strange indeed. I have a hard time understanding why they cant get in but every other swinging dick can. Couldnt they just say they were one of the approved categories?? Please understand, I have no problem with sommeone like you are talking about, we are all fed up with the non industry people who have no reason to be there |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2012 2:06:46 PM
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
"industry" is unfortunately hard to define. Do you allow bubba's bait shack with an annual budget of $20K to attend because they have an FFL but exclude public sector purchasing agents with multi-million dollar budgets who lack a FFL? I do not envy the show organizers in the task of keeping out the tourist while making sure the people with real money to spend are still allowed in. Industry is not hard to define at all. I have never heard of any buyers not being allowed in but I do not exactly know what a public sector purchasing agent is. Do you have a example? As a buyer they would seem to belong unless I am misunderstanding you? LE was limited to forensic firearms examiners, RSO's and Trainers this year. The Lt who purchases our patrol rifles is none of those things. Strange indeed. I have a hard time understanding why they cant get in but every other swinging dick can. Couldnt they just say they were one of the approved categories?? Sure, I suppose he could lie about his credentials but that type of thing would be unethical for any police officer and absolutely unacceptable to our employer. |
|
|
dangerdan
Royal Gunfighter
Team Member
Joined: Sep 2005 TX, USA
Posts: 1823 Feedback: 100% (36) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/22/2012 2:25:05 PM
I am in the industry. I buy their shit and keep them in business on a small scale.
Other than that, I sell duck calls for my dad's business also. |
|
|
ALASKANFIRE
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jul 2007 NV, USA
Posts: 5839 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/22/2012 3:10:23 PM
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
"industry" is unfortunately hard to define. Do you allow bubba's bait shack with an annual budget of $20K to attend because they have an FFL but exclude public sector purchasing agents with multi-million dollar budgets who lack a FFL? I do not envy the show organizers in the task of keeping out the tourist while making sure the people with real money to spend are still allowed in. Industry is not hard to define at all. I have never heard of any buyers not being allowed in but I do not exactly know what a public sector purchasing agent is. Do you have a example? As a buyer they would seem to belong unless I am misunderstanding you? LE was limited to forensic firearms examiners, RSO's and Trainers this year. The Lt who purchases our patrol rifles is none of those things. Strange indeed. I have a hard time understanding why they cant get in but every other swinging dick can. Couldnt they just say they were one of the approved categories?? Sure, I suppose he could lie about his credentials but that type of thing would be unethical for any police officer and absolutely unacceptable to our employer. Did he contact SHOT and they denied him? Just seems bizarre |
|
ARCHIVED
