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Posted: 12/22/2015 10:23:12 PM EDT
[#1]
I am a Sennheiser guy so I am biased to steer you to an 835.
 A Shure SM58 would work well for you also. I would assume you do not have phantom powerand are looking at dynamic mics. You can catch these on sale for under $100 and both are very good mics. I have two Sennheiser 936 mics that I like to use both for recording and live stage gigs. I have some Blue mics and an el cheapo MXL large large diaphragm condenser that is just a little on the harsh side. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 11:14:03 PM EDT
[#2]
I'm a Shure guy so I'm going to second the SM58. There are less expensive options and more expensive options but the 58 is nearly universal for basic club and church vocals.
If you are on a budget, wireless is probably a little pricey. A basic system is going to run $300 minimum. The best approach would likely be to buy a used purpose built PA with an integrated power amp for the live sound. I don't record so I don't have any insight into your needs there. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 11:52:47 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks! I like the looks of those two models and will do some research to compare them.
I noticed in a quick look at them that they have a mic plug, and I need to go to a standard 1/4 jack for my little amp. Is there an adapter? Or do you have a recommendation for what that mic should be plugged into? Like I said, I am new to this area and just starting to learn. I appreciate you guys taking the time to educate me a little and point me in the right direction! |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 1:21:14 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks! I like the looks of those two models and will do some research to compare them. I noticed in a quick look at them that they have a mic plug, and I need to go to a standard 1/4 jack for my little amp. Is there an adapter? Or do you have a recommendation for what that mic should be plugged into? Like I said, I am new to this area and just starting to learn. I appreciate you guys taking the time to educate me a little and point me in the right direction! You do not want to plug a mic into your Vox amp. Use that for your string instruments. You want a small, powered PA speaker: http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-B210D-BEHRINGER-EUROLIVE/dp/B002C4QWXQ. You can plug a microphone directly into this. Get a modest sized mixer and you can run all kinds of things through it. |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 10:16:33 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You do not want to plug a mic into your Vox amp. Use that for your string instruments. You want a small, powered PA speaker: http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-B210D-BEHRINGER-EUROLIVE/dp/B002C4QWXQ. You can plug a microphone directly into this. Get a modest sized mixer and you can run all kinds of things through it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thanks! I like the looks of those two models and will do some research to compare them. I noticed in a quick look at them that they have a mic plug, and I need to go to a standard 1/4 jack for my little amp. Is there an adapter? Or do you have a recommendation for what that mic should be plugged into? Like I said, I am new to this area and just starting to learn. I appreciate you guys taking the time to educate me a little and point me in the right direction! You do not want to plug a mic into your Vox amp. Use that for your string instruments. You want a small, powered PA speaker: http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-B210D-BEHRINGER-EUROLIVE/dp/B002C4QWXQ. You can plug a microphone directly into this. Get a modest sized mixer and you can run all kinds of things through it. Excellent advice. I'd forgotten about powered PA speakers. The advantage of the powered PA speaker is you can use it as a building block if you decide to build a bigger system. The next step would be to buy a mixer board (preferably with some onboard effects), then more microphones, and then more powered PA speakers as you need more power. The reason you don't plug your mic into your Vox amp is because of the impedance mismatch. Nothing will be damaged but performance will likely be subpar. They do make mics that are impedance matched for guitar amps but they are typically lower end mics because they are being used by folks with no budget. Here is a Shure dual impedance mic |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 12:21:47 PM EDT
[#6]
I am learning a LOT!
I like the look of that Behringer Euorlive B210D, and when I was looking I found the 12" version which seems even better for an extra $100. (B112W) 200w 10" speaker for $200 vs 1000w 12" speaker for $300....Seems like a huge change to me. I'm trying to learn the difference between all the mics. The Sennheiser e835, Shure SM58, and ElectroVoice N/D767a all seem to be the same. about $100 on sale, cardioid, unidirectional, XLR So here's a question: Is this PA/mic combo better than one of these kits? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1063441-REG/fender_passport_conference_175_watts_120v_kit.html http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1025687-REG/behringer_europort_ppa500bt_500w_6ch_portable_pa.html Reading the reviews on the PPA500BT, it seems like it's cheap crap that works well for a while. Behringer products seem to be either really nice or really junk. Their PAs that I have been looking at get GREAT reviews, but this kit and other portable PA systems have POOR reviews. (Such as this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/485365-REG/Behringer_EPA40_Europort_EPA40_40W_Handheld.html which gets bad reviews for battery replacement) Thanks for all the input on this thread! I have learned so much and really appreciate the help! |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 1:05:30 PM EDT
[#7]
I would steer clear of the package PA systems like the Fender Passport. They might be OK for small functions like meetings or house party karaoke, but that's about it. I would save up and buy individual components that are each a little more robust.
You will hear people crap all over Behringer, and rightfully so in some cases, but I have used their newer powered speakers and digital mixers with much success. As far as mics go, there's a reason why concert venues and PA providers have dozens of different mics in their inventory. You're asking a question that I could write volumes attempting to answer. I'm reluctant to suggest the SM58, but for the money it's OK for your first mic. It's fairly versatile, it will last you a lifetime, and it will get you started. |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 1:20:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Before we get too much deeper, I think we need to have a fairly accurate idea of how you plan to use this system. What are you going to amplify? How large is the venue? Are you playing with a drummer or guitarist running a 100 watt Marshall stack? etc.
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Posted: 12/23/2015 2:19:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Using the powered PA speaker idea Thawntex suggested here's a sample set-up w/o any idea of your actual usage plans. I picked Yamaha gear only because I've had good luck with other types of Yamaha gear being robust and a good value. I also used Sweetwater as a vendor since I've had good service and received good help from their sales staff in the past.
Something like this will likely be a better choice than the suitcase systems when it comes to peak SPL, clarity, and future upgradability. Mic: Shure SM58 $89 Mixer board: Yamaha MG10XU $199 Powered speaker: Yamaha DBR10 $399 Once you add cables and shipping you might be looking at $750 for this system. HOWEVER, I did zero shopping. I only looked at one brand which is not the cheapest brand. You could cut $200 just by going with the Behringer powered speaker Thawntex selected vs. the Yamaha I selected. You could cut another $80 by getting a mixer w/o effects. (Effects make vocals sound better.) Initially, you will not even need the mixer because the powered PA is set up to take a mic direct. You will only need the mixer when you want to add more than one input. I'm not saying this is the system to get. But I just thought I'd assemble a sample so Thawntex's idea didn't sound so daunting if you've never assembled a system. |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 8:07:12 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Using the powered PA speaker idea Thawntex suggested here's a sample set-up w/o any idea of your actual usage plans. I picked Yamaha gear only because I've had good luck with other types of Yamaha gear being robust and a good value. I also used Sweetwater as a vendor since I've had good service and received good help from their sales staff in the past. Something like this will likely be a better choice than the suitcase systems when it comes to peak SPL, clarity, and future upgradability. Mic: Shure SM58 $89 Mixer board: Yamaha MG10XU $199 Powered speaker: Yamaha DBR10 $399 Once you add cables and shipping you might be looking at $750 for this system. HOWEVER, I did zero shopping. I only looked at one brand which is not the cheapest brand. You could cut $200 just by going with the Behringer powered speaker Thawntex selected vs. the Yamaha I selected. You could cut another $80 by getting a mixer w/o effects. (Effects make vocals sound better.) Initially, you will not even need the mixer because the powered PA is set up to take a mic direct. You will only need the mixer when you want to add more than one input. I'm not saying this is the system to get. But I just thought I'd assemble a sample so Thawntex's idea didn't sound so daunting if you've never assembled a system. Good calls. Yammy stuff has always been pretty good to me, too. |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 9:17:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Before we get too much deeper, I think we need to have a fairly accurate idea of how you plan to use this system. What are you going to amplify? How large is the venue? Are you playing with a drummer or guitarist running a 100 watt Marshall stack? etc. My personal use:
Also looking for the historical society:
Since I have started this looking, an interesting thing happened. We were visiting family today and have been wanting to stop in a pawn shop to look for guitars, ukes, and whatever (I saw a sweet Ruger MkII 22/45 that I REALLY wanted...) They had the very same Fender PA set that I had linked above and been looking at online. It was reasonably priced (and they cut us a deal beyond that), so I picked it up. I had them set it up in store to see how it sounded and if it even worked. They even found an acoustic/electric guitar to hook up and an Audio-Technica Karaoke mic. My wife and I agreed that if it wasn't what we are looking for, then we could always donate it to the historical society. The guitar sounds fine through it. I can't turn the volume up all the way because it feeds back, but it's loud enough for the room it's in right now. The ukulele is very weak compared to playing it over the PB-10. I am guessing that it is because the guitar uses a 9V to power it and the uke has nothing. The karaoke mic they had has a 1/8 to 1/4 adapter that plugs into the input. It's fine to my 8 year old, but I don't like it much. There is definitely a very small area that it picks up well, without being too close to the mouth or not picking up much sound. Even my wife noticed that it pops a lot. I have a friend that actually performs in a band and I am going to see if he has any mics I can try with it, hopefully with the XLR port. I am still looking for advice and input on the best setup. This PA set probably cost me what the 10" Behringer, SM58 kit, and a couple cables would have cost me, but we can still look to the historical society to either recoup costs or get tax deduction.... |
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Posted: 12/24/2015 12:29:30 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My personal use:
They had the very same Fender PA set that I had linked above and been looking at online. It was reasonably priced (and they cut us a deal beyond that), so I picked it up. I had them set it up in store to see how it sounded and if it even worked. They even found an acoustic/electric guitar to hook up and an Audio-Technica Karaoke mic. My wife and I agreed that if it wasn't what we are looking for, then we could always donate it to the historical society. The guitar sounds fine through it. I can't turn the volume up all the way because it feeds back, but it's loud enough for the room it's in right now. The ukulele is very weak compared to playing it over the PB-10. I am guessing that it is because the guitar uses a 9V to power it and the uke has nothing. The karaoke mic they had has a 1/8 to 1/4 adapter that plugs into the input. It's fine to my 8 year old, but I don't like it much. There is definitely a very small area that it picks up well, without being too close to the mouth or not picking up much sound. Even my wife noticed that it pops a lot. I have a friend that actually performs in a band and I am going to see if he has any mics I can try with it, hopefully with the XLR port. I am still looking for advice and input on the best setup. This PA set probably cost me what the 10" Behringer, SM58 kit, and a couple cables would have cost me, but we can still look to the historical society to either recoup costs or get tax deduction.... I do not want to discourage you, but I do want to be realistic. It is the honest truth that you have some goals that will be difficult to achieve. Not impossible by any stretch, just difficult. Understanding the challenges you face is the first step away from frustration and toward success. I'll try to help as best I can. I approach your post like I would an input list or tech rider. I can tell you that I would not anticipate an easy day if I were scheduled to do sound for you. Acoustic string instruments can present great challenges. Throw in piano, bagpipes, and lots of small percussion instruments, and I would definitely have my work cut out for me. My solemn hope in situations like these is that all musicians come with "PA ready" instruments. It is usually impractical, for example, to depend solely on a microphone on a stand for something like ukulele or violin in a live setting. It is difficult for the player to keep a consistent distance in between his instrument and the mic, he must play loudly enough to overcome any extraneous sounds entering the mic from other sources, and there is always the risk of feedback as the sound man tries to gain up the mic so that that instrument can be heard. So, we set up a mic to add "presence" during solos, maybe, but the player should also have a quality pickup installed in the instrument. That is only part of the deal, however. In a perfect world he would also bring along a high quality DI box. The DI box serves to convert the high impedance, unbalanced signal from the uke or guitar into a low impedance, balanced signal suitable for interfacing with a mixing board. Take your uke, for instance, run it into an active DI box, and then connect it to the mic input of your Fender PA instead of the 1/4" input. See if you get more gain and better sound quality (I'm assuming your uke has a pickup). The same principles will apply to something like bagpipes. It has been a while since I have had to deal with any, but I do know that there are special clip on mics for bagpipes. Having something specifically tailored for that instrument is much better than trying to slap any old mic in front of them. Again, it is about being PA ready. A bagpipe player who has already figured out where to place his mics, how he likes them EQed, where they're prone to feeding back, etc. is a musician I want to work with. To sum it up, one size definitely does not fit all when it comes to reinforcing acoustic instruments. It often takes a combination of appropriately placed mics and pickups, along with good DI boxes, to produce a signal that is usable once it hits the PA. If these factor are neglected, there is a very slim chance that your PA will do anything to improve things no matter which knobs you turn. Just to reiterate, I'm not trying to cast a pall on your efforts. I've just run sound for my share of bluegrass and other string bands, and I can tell you that it is not always the easiest task. You're taking a very organic type of instrumentation and forcing it through equipment that can color it in a very unnatural way. Make it sound organic and natural through a PA and you will make some money. As far as building a system suitable for speech as in your last bullet points, you're going to hate me but that is an even more difficult undertaking. Maybe I can get into it later. Hope this helps. Oh, and use anything but that karaoke mic . |
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Posted: 12/24/2015 9:45:26 AM EDT
[#13]
I own four of these little speakers and would recommend them. For the money you will not buy a better speaker and they will shame more expensive speakers. If you watch you can find them on sale stupid cheap from time to time.
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Posted: 12/24/2015 10:51:02 AM EDT
[#14]
Thawntex,
I appreciate the feedback, and I understand what you are saying (sort of). I don't know what a DI is, so I'll look into that today. The poor uke needs some help! I don't necessarily plan to mic up all my instruments. I have an acoustic-electric guitar and an acoustic electric ukulele that I am using now. There are kits that mount to a violin to connect to a PA system that I want to look at down the road. (I learned about them reading up on http://www.thehotviolinist.com/ and she has some recommendations on equipment that is way out of my range right now. Just scroll way down the home page and there's a section on amping a violin) It would be nice to have a mic on the piano, but we're also looking at keyboards. There was a Casio at the local music store with decent weighted keys and other features for about $600 that has had my eye for a while. My next uke will be a Cordoba 20TM-CE. A friend has one and I am very impressed. I expect that it will have better output than the little Les Paul Epiphone uke I have now. It is definitely better to play on. As far as bagpipes and trumpets, I am hoping that the PA will allow the other instruments to keep up with them. I'm not too worried about recording anything with them right now. I would like to be able to record voices to help with dubbing video on the computer, though, which is why I was looking at those Zoom recorders. I appreciate the help! I feel much more confident about simple PA stuff now, with all the input from you all! |
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Posted: 12/24/2015 10:53:37 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I own four of these little speakers and would recommend them. For the money you will not buy a better speaker and they will shame more expensive speakers. If you watch you can find them on sale stupid cheap from time to time. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/harbinger-vari-v2112-600-w-12-two-way-powered-loudspeaker Looks nice. For a second I thought it was another model of Behringer....too early in the morning! |
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Posted: 12/24/2015 2:51:09 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thawntex, I appreciate the feedback, and I understand what you are saying (sort of). I don't know what a DI is, so I'll look into that today. The poor uke needs some help! I don't necessarily plan to mic up all my instruments. I have an acoustic-electric guitar and an acoustic electric ukulele that I am using now. There are kits that mount to a violin to connect to a PA system that I want to look at down the road. (I learned about them reading up on http://www.thehotviolinist.com/ and she has some recommendations on equipment that is way out of my range right now. Just scroll way down the home page and there's a section on amping a violin) It would be nice to have a mic on the piano, but we're also looking at keyboards. There was a Casio at the local music store with decent weighted keys and other features for about $600 that has had my eye for a while. My next uke will be a Cordoba 20TM-CE. A friend has one and I am very impressed. I expect that it will have better output than the little Les Paul Epiphone uke I have now. It is definitely better to play on. As far as bagpipes and trumpets, I am hoping that the PA will allow the other instruments to keep up with them. I'm not too worried about recording anything with them right now. I would like to be able to record voices to help with dubbing video on the computer, though, which is why I was looking at those Zoom recorders. I appreciate the help! I feel much more confident about simple PA stuff now, with all the input from you all! DI stands for direct injection (or input), and you will find many different varieties. Simply put, you're taking the 1/4" plug from a guitar, keyboard, etc. and converting it to XLR (the three pin mic plug). You really want everything to come into your PA via XLR. Converting 1/4" to XLR with a good direct box gives you several advantages. A direct box can eliminate noise, and the XLR cable coming from it can be run over a long distance. You can look into passive DIs, or active ones like the LR Baggs Para DI which contain extra features like EQ and variable gain control. I just checked the Hot Violinist page, and sure enough she is using the latter. You are correct that certain instruments need to be reinforced just to "keep up" with instruments that are naturally louder. In a perfect world the players with the loudest instruments would make an effort not to drown anyone out, but I digress. There have been many nights where only certain instruments and voices make it into my mix because the other instruments are loud enough on their own. This means, however, that you must invest extra work into installing quality pickups and using a good DI and/or putting the right mic on those instruments which tend to be quieter. The odds are already stacked against you, and you must deliver a good signal to the PA or you will get nowhere. It is crucial to understand this. The quieter an instrument is, the harder it is to achieve adequate gain, and this is why you don't want to cheap out on the components listed above. A quiet instrument delivering a weak, poor-quality signal will present nothing but unneeded and frustrating challenges to you as a PA operator. I hope you understand my perspective as a guy who is confronted with thousands of different instruments, amps, pickups, DI boxes, and microphones every year. I either have gain right out of the gate when I select your channel, or I have to spend precious time trying to work you into the mix with limited results. Competent musicians know that I can only do so much if they are ill-prepared to plug into my sound system. They put the horse in front of the cart and realize that the PA is a secondary consideration, the first being all that I have discussed in this thread. Pickups, mics, DIs, and well-built/tuned instruments are expensive, but it's best to put your money there before thinking about PA purchases. |
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Posted: 12/24/2015 6:40:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
DI stands for direct injection (or input), and you will find many different varieties. Simply put, you're taking the 1/4" plug from a guitar, keyboard, etc. and converting it to XLR (the three pin mic plug). You really want everything to come into your PA via XLR. Converting 1/4" to XLR with a good direct box gives you several advantages. A direct box can eliminate noise, and the XLR cable coming from it can be run over a long distance. You can look into passive DIs, or active ones like the LR Baggs Para DI which contain extra features like EQ and variable gain control. I just checked the Hot Violinist page, and sure enough she is using the latter. You are correct that certain instruments need to be reinforced just to "keep up" with instruments that are naturally louder. In a perfect world the players with the loudest instruments would make an effort not to drown anyone out, but I digress. There have been many nights where only certain instruments and voices make it into my mix because the other instruments are loud enough on their own. This means, however, that you must invest extra work into installing quality pickups and using a good DI and/or putting the right mic on those instruments which tend to be quieter. The odds are already stacked against you, and you must deliver a good signal to the PA or you will get nowhere. It is crucial to understand this. The quieter an instrument is, the harder it is to achieve adequate gain, and this is why you don't want to cheap out on the components listed above. A quiet instrument delivering a weak, poor-quality signal will present nothing but unneeded and frustrating challenges to you as a PA operator. I hope you understand my perspective as a guy who is confronted with thousands of different instruments, amps, pickups, DI boxes, and microphones every year. I either have gain right out of the gate when I select your channel, or I have to spend precious time trying to work you into the mix with limited results. Competent musicians know that I can only do so much if they are ill-prepared to plug into my sound system. They put the horse in front of the cart and realize that the PA is a secondary consideration, the first being all that I have discussed in this thread. Pickups, mics, DIs, and well-built/tuned instruments are expensive, but it's best to put your money there before thinking about PA purchases. That makes sense. I guess that's why my uke sounds fine through my PB-10 and like crap through the PA set. So my next two priorities are a few good mics (with stands) and some DI boxes. I may get one of each of the 3 mics I have looked at so that I can compare them directly. Let me see if I have the order straight. Ukulele, guitar, keyboard etc into the DI. DI into the PA. If I get a wireless setup, such as with the violin, the violin transmitter goes to the receiver that plugs into the PA via XLR. If I wire the violin, it goes to a DI, then to the PA. If I get a mixer, everything goes into it's own DI, then into mixer, then into the PA. Is that pretty much the basic setup? Another one of my musician friends/distant family had showed me a loop pedal too. Where would that fit into my "system?" (It's also on my wish list) I am guessing after a DI but before the PA...(I think I am starting to get a grasp of how this all works). |
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Posted: 12/26/2015 1:15:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That makes sense. I guess that's why my uke sounds fine through my PB-10 and like crap through the PA set. So my next two priorities are a few good mics (with stands) and some DI boxes. I may get one of each of the 3 mics I have looked at so that I can compare them directly. Let me see if I have the order straight. Ukulele, guitar, keyboard etc into the DI. DI into the PA. If I get a wireless setup, such as with the violin, the violin transmitter goes to the receiver that plugs into the PA via XLR. If I wire the violin, it goes to a DI, then to the PA. If I get a mixer, everything goes into it's own DI, then into mixer, then into the PA. Is that pretty much the basic setup? Another one of my musician friends/distant family had showed me a loop pedal too. Where would that fit into my "system?" (It's also on my wish list) I am guessing after a DI but before the PA...(I think I am starting to get a grasp of how this all works). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: DI stands for direct injection (or input), and you will find many different varieties. Simply put, you're taking the 1/4" plug from a guitar, keyboard, etc. and converting it to XLR (the three pin mic plug). You really want everything to come into your PA via XLR. Converting 1/4" to XLR with a good direct box gives you several advantages. A direct box can eliminate noise, and the XLR cable coming from it can be run over a long distance. You can look into passive DIs, or active ones like the LR Baggs Para DI which contain extra features like EQ and variable gain control. I just checked the Hot Violinist page, and sure enough she is using the latter. You are correct that certain instruments need to be reinforced just to "keep up" with instruments that are naturally louder. In a perfect world the players with the loudest instruments would make an effort not to drown anyone out, but I digress. There have been many nights where only certain instruments and voices make it into my mix because the other instruments are loud enough on their own. This means, however, that you must invest extra work into installing quality pickups and using a good DI and/or putting the right mic on those instruments which tend to be quieter. The odds are already stacked against you, and you must deliver a good signal to the PA or you will get nowhere. It is crucial to understand this. The quieter an instrument is, the harder it is to achieve adequate gain, and this is why you don't want to cheap out on the components listed above. A quiet instrument delivering a weak, poor-quality signal will present nothing but unneeded and frustrating challenges to you as a PA operator. I hope you understand my perspective as a guy who is confronted with thousands of different instruments, amps, pickups, DI boxes, and microphones every year. I either have gain right out of the gate when I select your channel, or I have to spend precious time trying to work you into the mix with limited results. Competent musicians know that I can only do so much if they are ill-prepared to plug into my sound system. They put the horse in front of the cart and realize that the PA is a secondary consideration, the first being all that I have discussed in this thread. Pickups, mics, DIs, and well-built/tuned instruments are expensive, but it's best to put your money there before thinking about PA purchases. That makes sense. I guess that's why my uke sounds fine through my PB-10 and like crap through the PA set. So my next two priorities are a few good mics (with stands) and some DI boxes. I may get one of each of the 3 mics I have looked at so that I can compare them directly. Let me see if I have the order straight. Ukulele, guitar, keyboard etc into the DI. DI into the PA. If I get a wireless setup, such as with the violin, the violin transmitter goes to the receiver that plugs into the PA via XLR. If I wire the violin, it goes to a DI, then to the PA. If I get a mixer, everything goes into it's own DI, then into mixer, then into the PA. Is that pretty much the basic setup? Another one of my musician friends/distant family had showed me a loop pedal too. Where would that fit into my "system?" (It's also on my wish list) I am guessing after a DI but before the PA...(I think I am starting to get a grasp of how this all works). Yes, you have things pretty straight and it sounds like you're getting the idea. As far as the loop pedal goes, ask the person who showed it to you to tell you the name of the model, and then we can discuss where to place it in the signal chain. |
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Posted: 12/27/2015 8:31:18 PM EDT
[#19]
I think the pedal was a Boss RC-2. I'm waiting to hear back from him, and in the mean time it's the one I'm looking at.
ETA: Nope, he just got back to me. RC-30. That one looks even better than the RC-2 anyway. Probably steer that direction. |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 9:03:17 AM EDT
[#20]
Looking at the RC-30 specs the instrument input impedance is 1M ohm - "high" impedance. The Mic input is 4k ohm - "low" impedance. The output is 1k ohm - "low" impedance. Since instruments are typically high impedance an instrument would be plugged in directly to the RC-30 and the output being low impedance would go to the mixer no DI box needed using the XLR output. With a Mic the RC-30 can be plugged in anywhere between the Mic and the board.
ETA: Looking more closely I don't see an XLR output so I don't know if a DI box is still required or not. i.e. Do we need a DI to convert from 1/4" jack to XLR to make the run to the mixer? |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 3:07:35 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You do not want to plug a mic into your Vox amp. Use that for your string instruments. You want a small, powered PA speaker: http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-B210D-BEHRINGER-EUROLIVE/dp/B002C4QWXQ. You can plug a microphone directly into this. Get a modest sized mixer and you can run all kinds of things through it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thanks! I like the looks of those two models and will do some research to compare them. I noticed in a quick look at them that they have a mic plug, and I need to go to a standard 1/4 jack for my little amp. Is there an adapter? Or do you have a recommendation for what that mic should be plugged into? Like I said, I am new to this area and just starting to learn. I appreciate you guys taking the time to educate me a little and point me in the right direction! You do not want to plug a mic into your Vox amp. Use that for your string instruments. You want a small, powered PA speaker: http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-B210D-BEHRINGER-EUROLIVE/dp/B002C4QWXQ. You can plug a microphone directly into this. Get a modest sized mixer and you can run all kinds of things through it. I have used a mike into a practice guitar amp as a small PA in fairly good sized rooms. Place the amp where neither the front nor the back of the speaker is pointed at the mike, and roll the highs off a little bit. Make sure you are on the clean channel, not the overdrive or lead channel, and roll the volume up slowly as someone speaks into the mike. You will need either a high-impedance (high -Z) mike or a high to low transformer 
You should be able to find an inexpensive high impedance microphone that you can dedicate to mini-PA, sing at home through practice amp use. If you look online, you can find some fairly inexpensive low-impedance mikes too - I have had good luck with Peavey and AKG. You can often catch them on sale for less than $40. Sometimes much less. When buying, check to see if it comes with a mike cable, and if so, how long of one. |
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Posted: 12/28/2015 3:26:26 PM EDT
[#22]
$19.99 at Musician's friend:
$29.99 gets you wired or wireless. granted, you get what you pay for, but not bad for starting out. 
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Posted: 12/29/2015 1:24:32 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have used a mike into a practice guitar amp as a small PA in fairly good sized rooms. Place the amp where neither the front nor the back of the speaker is pointed at the mike, and roll the highs off a little bit. Make sure you are on the clean channel, not the overdrive or lead channel, and roll the volume up slowly as someone speaks into the mike. You will need either a high-impedance (high -Z) mike But that might sound cool on certain tunes   |
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Posted: 12/30/2015 11:45:54 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good calls. Yammy stuff has always been pretty good to me, too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Using the powered PA speaker idea Thawntex suggested here's a sample set-up w/o any idea of your actual usage plans. I picked Yamaha gear only because I've had good luck with other types of Yamaha gear being robust and a good value. I also used Sweetwater as a vendor since I've had good service and received good help from their sales staff in the past. Something like this will likely be a better choice than the suitcase systems when it comes to peak SPL, clarity, and future upgradability. Mic: Shure SM58 $89 Mixer board: Yamaha MG10XU $199 Powered speaker: Yamaha DBR10 $399 Once you add cables and shipping you might be looking at $750 for this system. HOWEVER, I did zero shopping. I only looked at one brand which is not the cheapest brand. You could cut $200 just by going with the Behringer powered speaker Thawntex selected vs. the Yamaha I selected. You could cut another $80 by getting a mixer w/o effects. (Effects make vocals sound better.) Initially, you will not even need the mixer because the powered PA is set up to take a mic direct. You will only need the mixer when you want to add more than one input. I'm not saying this is the system to get. But I just thought I'd assemble a sample so Thawntex's idea didn't sound so daunting if you've never assembled a system. Good calls. Yammy stuff has always been pretty good to me, too. I love Yammy's preamps in their boards and interfaces. |
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Posted: 12/30/2015 11:53:49 AM EDT
[#25]
OP, Thantex knows his shit...he's a professional sound guy.
BUT....it's always difficult to diagnose a problem over the internet, or to recommend a setup to a total noob based off of a loose description of what they figure they need to do. So while his advice is gonna be rock solid, I might also advise that before you run out and start plunking down skrilla on gear, see if your local community college offers any live sound engineering courses, or find a local sound guy who does sound for small events and ask if you can either pick his brain or volunteer to work a few of his gigs as an unpaid intern. The internet is a fabulous resource, but no substitute for OJT, and figuring out what to buy is only one piece of the puzzle. Actually seeing how various gear is used in various applications can be a huge eye opener. As excellent a resource as this forum is, and access to pro's like thawntex is, there's virtually no chance of the folks here building you the ideal shopping list for your needs over the interwebs...not without really seeing the venues, the scenarios, the various instruments setups etc in person. So if buy once cry once is your priority, see if you can also do some in person ground work as well before you whip out the credit card. |
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Posted: 12/31/2015 12:17:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Thanks to everyone for all of the advice in this forum!
Through your suggestions I have done a LOT of research and feel pretty confident about what I'm looking at now. Shure's website actually had a TON of information on microphones and sound. I now understand the difference between cardioid, super-cardioid, and hyper-cardioid; the difference between dynamic and condenser transducers; low impedance and high impedance; and also how to set up sound systems for best gain-before-feedback, sound quality, and just what "critical distance" is. I've looked at my church's sound system, and have a couple others I am going to look at. I also know a performer and am going to see what his band's setup is. As mentioned above, there's not a good substitute for real world experience. That being said, this is the kind of stuff I am looking at/for: I want a couple dynamic, unidirectional, cardioid mics with a fairly flat response for the kids to use to sing. The SM58 and Sennheisser 835 seem to fit this need. Eventually I want some condenser, unidirectional, hyper-cardioid mics with better presence response for my acoustic instruments. I want a couple LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI's to use with my Les Paul Epiphone Uke and eventually my violin (when it's miked up) I am going to start looking at mixers to see what I might want, and am leaning towards a Mackie that will have about 8 inputs and modest onboard FX. PA's I am still on the fence about. For my needs, I am going to have to do a lot more research. I realize that a small PA will do the job for most of my needs, but I also want the best sound quality for my money. Thanks again for all the help! |
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Posted: 1/5/2016 1:18:28 AM EDT
[#27]
I would go with this signal chain for now:
SM57 -> Scarlett 2i4 -> Computer DAW -> Speakers (and monitor headphones on the 2i4 The SM57 over the 58 because it's more versatile in mic'ing up instruments and voice than the 58, imo. The Scarlett 2i4 because it can handle two inputs (i.e. mic and instrument pickup), and has a PAD for active pickups. There are great freeware DAWs out that that can edit and process your sound to really good quality. Make sure you have some good quality speakers, not the usual desktop speakers. You can add a mixer between the mic and the Scarlett later (the yamaha recommended earlier is a good one that I like), and a DI box like a Samson Tech 21 DI for pickups later. |
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Posted: 1/5/2016 6:03:54 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would go with this signal chain for now: SM57 -> Scarlett 2i4 -> Computer DAW -> Speakers (and monitor headphones on the 2i4 The SM57 over the 58 because it's more versatile in mic'ing up instruments and voice than the 58, imo. The Scarlett 2i4 because it can handle two inputs (i.e. mic and instrument pickup), and has a PAD for active pickups. There are great freeware DAWs out that that can edit and process your sound to really good quality. Make sure you have some good quality speakers, not the usual desktop speakers. You can add a mixer between the mic and the Scarlett later (the yamaha recommended earlier is a good one that I like), and a DI box like a Samson Tech 21 DI for pickups later. I had wondered what the difference is between the 57 and 58, and why one is recommended for instruments and the other for vocals. I saw the tech sheets on Shure's website and see that they are nearly identical except for the screen and the frequency response. I like the look of the response on the 57. Thanks for the input. Just looked up the Scarlett 2i4. Neat idea to take two inputs into computer. I had been looking at Shure's USB adapter: http://www.shure.com/americas/products/accessories/microphones/microphone-problem-solvers/x2u-xlr-to-usb-signal-adapter What are your thoughts on that compared to the Scarlett? |
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Posted: 1/6/2016 12:41:49 AM EDT
[#29]
The 57 & 58 are identical except for the pop screen. Without the the screen the 57 can be placed slightly closer to the source.
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Posted: 1/6/2016 11:53:48 AM EDT
[#30]
Good on you for doing the research, and good luck with the selection and setup. Post back results!
And I would be remiss if I didn't mention that if you do happen to make the perfect equipment selections and setup configuration on your very first foray into pro-audio, you will be the first person in history to have successfully pull off "buy once cry once" on the first pro-audio go
But I'm sure tons of people tell themselves they're only going to try heroin once too, lol. |
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Posted: 1/6/2016 2:38:44 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good on you for doing the research, and good luck with the selection and setup. Post back results! And I would be remiss if I didn't mention that if you do happen to make the perfect equipment selections and setup configuration on your very first foray into pro-audio, you will be the first person in history to have successfully pull off "buy once cry once" on the first pro-audio go But I'm sure tons of people tell themselves they're only going to try heroin once too, lol. I used to haul around my own little PA back in the early 2000s. Business was alright and a couple years into it I took out a loan to upgrade the system. I had been using plastic SKB Roto Racks, and thought it would be a swell idea to upgrade to shock mounted racks. I had two of them custom built, a larger one for power amps, and a smaller one to fit on top of that for processing gear, wireless recievers, etc. It would all roll around as one unit, and I could separate the top from the bottom if needed (I never did). I got this damn rack home and instantly realized my several hundred dollar mistake. It had the proportions of a small refrigerator. The shock mounting system basically puts a rack within a rack, and with it divided into two units there was enough plywood in that thing to roof a small house. With the casters and everything it weighed a ton, and this was prior to it containing any gear. I tried to avoid using helpers, so I rolled and hoisted "the fridge" around by myself for a couple of years before ditching the whole PA ownership thing. I swear I screwed up my back for life on account of the great rack debacle, and learned a valuable lesson about "customizing" my shit. |
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Posted: 1/6/2016 4:20:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I used to haul around my own little PA back in the early 2000s. Business was alright and a couple years into it I took out a loan to upgrade the system. I had been using plastic SKB Roto Racks, and thought it would be a swell idea to upgrade to shock mounted racks. I had two of them custom built, a larger one for power amps, and a smaller one to fit on top of that for processing gear, wireless recievers, etc. It would all roll around as one unit, and I could separate the top from the bottom if needed (I never did). I got this damn rack home and instantly realized my several hundred dollar mistake. It had the proportions of a small refrigerator. The shock mounting system basically puts a rack within a rack, and with it divided into two units there was enough plywood in that thing to roof a small house. With the casters and everything it weighed a ton, and this was prior to it containing any gear. I tried to avoid using helpers, so I rolled and hoisted "the fridge" around by myself for a couple of years before ditching the whole PA ownership thing. I swear I screwed up my back for life on account of the great rack debacle, and learned a valuable lesson about "customizing" my shit.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Good on you for doing the research, and good luck with the selection and setup. Post back results! And I would be remiss if I didn't mention that if you do happen to make the perfect equipment selections and setup configuration on your very first foray into pro-audio, you will be the first person in history to have successfully pull off "buy once cry once" on the first pro-audio go
But I'm sure tons of people tell themselves they're only going to try heroin once too, lol. I used to haul around my own little PA back in the early 2000s. Business was alright and a couple years into it I took out a loan to upgrade the system. I had been using plastic SKB Roto Racks, and thought it would be a swell idea to upgrade to shock mounted racks. I had two of them custom built, a larger one for power amps, and a smaller one to fit on top of that for processing gear, wireless recievers, etc. It would all roll around as one unit, and I could separate the top from the bottom if needed (I never did). I got this damn rack home and instantly realized my several hundred dollar mistake. It had the proportions of a small refrigerator. The shock mounting system basically puts a rack within a rack, and with it divided into two units there was enough plywood in that thing to roof a small house. With the casters and everything it weighed a ton, and this was prior to it containing any gear. I tried to avoid using helpers, so I rolled and hoisted "the fridge" around by myself for a couple of years before ditching the whole PA ownership thing. I swear I screwed up my back for life on account of the great rack debacle, and learned a valuable lesson about "customizing" my shit.
Awesome. And I bet the dude who bought it off you saw it and was like "this custom rig would be perfect!" Rinse, repeat
OP, many is the person who has hopped in their car and drove off to Guitar Center telling the dude behind the counter that all they need as a SM-57 microphone and a cable to plug into their Mac's Garage Band software, because for what they do that's pretty much all they need, and end up 5 years and a loan or two later with their basement looking like 
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Posted: 1/20/2016 7:21:22 PM EDT
[#33]
Thought I'd bump this thread since we were talking about DI boxes earlier. I had an opportunity today to photograph two very different sets of DIs, and this is a good representation of the contrast between the types you'll commonly find.
The left ones are passive: transformers, pretty simple. The right ones are active and have all sorts of gain and EQ controls, even effects loops. These are being used for two keyboards, each run in stereo, played by Todd Rundgren's keyboardist.  |
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Posted: 1/21/2016 4:48:15 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thought I'd bump this thread since we were talking about DI boxes earlier. I had an opportunity today to photograph two very different sets of DIs, and this is a good representation of the contrast between the types you'll commonly find. The left ones are passive: transformers, pretty simple. The right ones are active and have all sorts of gain and EQ controls, even effects loops. These are being used for two keyboards, each run in stereo, played by Todd Rundgren's keyboardist. http://i.imgur.com/GWHcat5.jpg Also commonly used by bassists with passive bass guitars (the active DI boxes). I really like the Radial JDI on the left. I'll be using it to run a clean guitar signal into my recording rig for future re-amping. I also had to pick up one of Radial's re-amping boxes for when I send the signal back out when such re-amping occurs. |
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Posted: 1/22/2016 1:28:24 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also commonly used by bassists with passive bass guitars (the active DI boxes). I really like the Radial JDI on the left. I'll be using it to run a clean guitar signal into my recording rig for future re-amping. I also had to pick up one of Radial's re-amping boxes for when I send the signal back out when such re-amping occurs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thought I'd bump this thread since we were talking about DI boxes earlier. I had an opportunity today to photograph two very different sets of DIs, and this is a good representation of the contrast between the types you'll commonly find. The left ones are passive: transformers, pretty simple. The right ones are active and have all sorts of gain and EQ controls, even effects loops. These are being used for two keyboards, each run in stereo, played by Todd Rundgren's keyboardist. http://i.imgur.com/GWHcat5.jpg Also commonly used by bassists with passive bass guitars (the active DI boxes). I really like the Radial JDI on the left. I'll be using it to run a clean guitar signal into my recording rig for future re-amping. I also had to pick up one of Radial's re-amping boxes for when I send the signal back out when such re-amping occurs. Yeah, the passive JDIs are nice. I remember when a buddy of mine bought one a few years back, and using electric bass we did a side by side comparison between it and a cheaper Whirlwind DI box that I had. The JDI delivered a noticeably better sound, proving that all passive DIs are not equal, and that the quality of the transformer really does make a huge difference. |
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Posted: 1/23/2016 11:10:16 PM EDT
[#36]
So which of those DI's that you show would you recommend for my acoustics?
I'm trying to search for them and they look comparable to the LR Baggs DI. Better or worse? |
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Posted: 1/23/2016 11:32:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So which of those DI's that you show would you recommend for my acoustics? I'm trying to search for them and they look comparable to the LR Baggs DI. Better or worse? If you're referring to the Schatten DIs pictured above and how they compare to the LR Baggs, I don't know. That was the first I've ever seen of the former brand (looks like they make some cool stuff for acoustic instruments, though). If it were me and my acoustic guitar I'd have both an active DI with all the bells and whistles and a quality passive DI. I don't play gigs so maybe someone who does can make more recommendations. I can tell you that lately my go-to DI for acoustics is the active BSS AR-133. |
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