Read this and started to think: http://www.metalinjection.net/its-just-business/bands-money-touring



It's been 10 years or so since I played, much less performed. How has the music industry changed? What's are some big obstacles to bands these days?

I just skimmed the article...it's a little too depressing to read.


























 
 
 
 

By the way, the answer to your question is the same for bands as it is for everyone else: income has not kept pace with expenses.




















 


 

So is it not worth it to play live anymore except on special occasions? Is there even a demand for live music these days (not talking about DJs)?



Would it be better for bands to record and distribute via internet?

I toured for a number of years...it has changed dramatically.  

Fuel costs are killers as well as declining revenues at bars / clubs thus reducing the amounts bands are paid.  

When I played full time out....I viewed my job as being a drink salesman...the more we got people to drink and party...the more money we made.  The more women we attracted to the club / bar....the more guys showed up...who bought more drinks.  

We played for flat fees until bar owners balked at the amounts.  We then played for the door with our own people on the door making sure the count was right.  About every method of being paid...we experienced.  

Equipment has reduced in price for the most part.  I find amps, guitars, effects, PA's, etc cheaper that can be gigged.  Most equipment was required to be owned by the individual before joining the band...if you needed two Marshall 4x12's...you better own them before coming to us.  If you need a spare guitar...you better own it.  PA systems were a joint ownership of the bands.  More and more places had house PA's as time went on.  Worst in this endeavor were the singers....for them investing in equipment was MAYBE buying a mic stand....very few singers I ever worked with had anything to bring to the bands.  

I found that even local bands are playing out less and less due to people hitting bars / clubs decreasing.  Happy hours, etc are long gone.  I find that many of todays people do not appreciate live music...they would rather listen to the same shit they hear in their car, etc....from their iphone, etc.  People do not follow local bands like they did before.  Bands like the Fools in Boston, the Beat Farmers in California, etc, even Phish, etc....had huge followings of loyal fans...todays bands do not build those types of fans....

I currently play out quite often...I do so out of love of music and playing.  I do not worry about the money one bit.  I own my own gear, as do all the others I play with.  We all have the same attitude.  It is different..but I do see the advent of live bands coming back

 




























 

 

IMHO, Bands/Solo Acts/ect would be better off just writing songs, doing some decent recordings of the songs, and just putting them up on sites like reverbnation.com, selling them through iTunes, ect, and then just playing out locally or no more than a 100 mile radius. Because the days of big record contracts are in their twilight, if not already gone, ironically because of the internet.
Self production/promotion is the name if the game these days



Don't get me wrong, a band still could build up a fan base large enough to tour, it's just that the traditional record company thing is dieing out.




 

Agreed.

Yep, I was adding that when you posted.



 

I think a lot had to do with the overprocessing of modern music. People just expected everything to sound like a recording (and modern computer generated music doesn't help this). IMO the industry needs another punk/grunge revolution. YMMV.
Then there's the question of the future of rock music in general.  


 

Alot of that is due to Autotune, Beat Detective, ect. If everything is perfectly in tune and on beat, it sounds sterile.
This guy pretty much nails it, for the most part. I think that more people being able to make good recordings is a good thing, but Auto tune does, in fact, SUCK!

 

Yeah he's pretty spot-on.





What could help real bands make it? what do sites like ReverbNation lack?



The state of music today reminds me of the late 90's, before grunge put it on it's ass for a few years.





 

thanks for the video on Autotune...I could not agree more

I have had the luxury of watching some very well known guitar players in the control room repeating the same lead solo literally hundreds of times...to get it perfect...with the engineer pushing and pushing.  

I am convinced that a great studio engineer could be a sadist in any BDSM environment...LOL....but...they serve a purpose of pushing the player to do better.  I still remember when I was in the studio doing commercials...and the engineer / studio owner telling me over and over again...hit it again.  It took getting pissed off to really ring the emotion out of the leads....it worked

I think one thing missing in todays music is a true individuality...so many of the bands work on sounding the same.  they are afraid to stand out.  Add to it vocalists that think growling and grunting is singing....(cookie monster rock is killing the rock scene)

I don't know if sites like Reverbnation lack anything. They're just platforms for acts to promote themselves, and actually give them more exposure than bands used to get.



And I agree that today does kind of remind me of the late '90s, in that crappy pop has infected pretty much everything like it did back then. The difference today is that record companies don't have the clout they used to and record contracts aren't the lottery ticket they used to be.



 

No problem, he's got a few more videos that are pretty good too. And I agree with most of what you're saying here, except that the borderline Cookie Monster stuff can sound good. The problem is that there are quite a few that over do it, do it poorly, or both.



 

 


 

Music as we know it is dying.

Expenses for touring are through the roof, but for mid level acts, revenues are down for shows.  Ticket prices have stagnated, because kids won't pay more than $10 - $20 for a multi-band bill unless someone really big is on top of the ticket.  If you are a "baby national" or mid level touring band, you are lucky to get much of anything.

And merch sales are in the shitter.  Why?  Overall, because fans now have conditioned themselves to not invest in music...i.e. when you get all your music for free from pirate sites, you begin to view even paying for merch as a chore.  Fans now steal the album online, pay $10 at the door to get in and then scoff at a $25 t-shirt.  So they don't buy it, period.

It IS depressing.  I know so many touring musicians in well established name recognition bands that have been at it literally for decades, and they make jack shit.  Almost all of them have crappy jobs, because you can't have a nice job and take off for a couple of months at a time to tour a couple times a year.  Too many of them continue to tour, or tour relentlessly, not because it pays the bills, but because they are now in their 40s, and they despise going home to a pile of bills and their shitty tiny apartment...so they just stay out.  It is sad.

It is funny...before my hockey game tonight our Captain asked me if I have any gigs coming up and I was like "fuck no.  I only do studio shit now."  And I explained how playing shows just is totally not worth it to me anymore.  Sure, when you are on stage and the crowd digs you it is like no other feeling, but all the work to get there and set up is a pain in the dick, tear down and packout is a pain in the dick, it pretty much consumes your whole day for that one hour on stage, and it cost you more money than you made to get there.  

The internet and all these tools were supposed to be liberating and cause a music revolution.  But now all we seem to be getting is an endless morass of mediocre bedroom recordings and an endless sea of bland garbage.  But hey, it's free, amirite?  And what IS put out by studios is all cookie cutter junk because they practically need to guarantee sales on every project they do, so taking risks is verboten.

So in closing, Gene Simmons isn't far off when he declares that rock is dead.  It pretty much is.  The fans killed it.

Bingo.  Think about that.  Each member made about $100 for that day.  Deduct gas and whatever they are paying for their van rental, and what do they really get in profit.  And news flash...when you are out on tour, you don't magically stop paying rent on your apartment back home etc.  

When it is all said and done, most mid level bands LOSE money on tour, compared to if they had stayed at home and simply worked a day job.  Even if that day job were a minimum wage fast food gig.

Another bingo.  For all but the biggest superstar acts, record contracts were more like a chinese finger trap than a lottery ticket.

 

Seems like there's a lot of people trying to sell success to aspiring musicians,  but not as much out there moving new and local music to the listeners who don't hang out in the music scene.

 



 
 

 















 
 

The advance is essentially just a loan from the label, and it is amazing how few bands actually understand that.  My prior chinese finger trap comment was pointed at that aspect.  You work for the label until you pay it off.  And usually with each subsequent album, you just dig further in.  Hence, you keep owing them more albums, as the label sinks more and more advance cash into advertising and studio time etc.  Hence, virtually all bands get to that phase where they hate their label, fight to get off, and once they do (or pumo out those last two shitty albums to get free of their obligation) they jump right back in bed with another label and 4 or 5 albums later they are bitching about the same exact shit.

Has the rise of self-distribution been effective at all? I understand that it doesn't come with a fat cash advance, but has anyone been successful lately taking the Fugazi route?

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I made the same decision, but kept practicing and developing my skills and knowledge. Now I make more money than I can spend
and can have all the expensive nice toys I always wanted, and in a real sound room in my basement. I have been playing guitar for
41 years now. Maybe it's time to get the band back together. (tm)

I have actually selectively bred my own band in the form of my children whom also play, sing and bang on shit (drum).

Yeah I couldn't go serious because of the military.  After 9/11, there was no time for any of it. I sold my rig and kept just my Tacoma Thunderchief.

Some have been successful at it, but I would say that they are very few and far between.

Sadly, most of the publications, online web sites, radio stations etc don't touch stuff that isn't pushed by a label.  So reaching any sort of audience is still a pipe dream.  And for the vast majority, the whole "download it for free, but make a donation or buy some merch" doesn't work either.  The vast majority simply stop, download, and move on.  because the other consequence of digital piracy is that fans now have much shorter attention spans and view the product as much more disposable.  they listen a few times and move on, because there is SO MUCH OUT THERE.  Back when you bought your music, you were limited by your budget so you have far fewer albums, hence you listened to them a lot more.  This resulted in a more rabid fan base.  A fan base more inclined to feel invested and contribute.

I would argue that most of the bands who have been successful with the giveaway marketing strategy were already previously beneficiaries of being on a label, and already had big fan bases.  Same with the bands that have made a lot off kickstarter...they were already well known and got a lot of donations by saying their next album will be "off label."

I think it is totally worth it to make and promote good music.  IF by worth it you mean fulfilling an internal need to create.  If you mean financially worth it, no.

A long time ago, I decided to make my career #1 and treat my music as a hobby.  The result?  I have my own in-home studio, a world class drum kit, all the bells and whistles I could want and the financial freedom to do what I want.  I make music when I want, and if it doesn't make a dime I don't need to get stressed about it.

That is the problem, there is SO MUCH OUT THERE. You have to differentiate yourself in some way, Speak to a particular audience,
then get heard over and over by that audience like top 40 radio stations did back in the day.

Even though there is so much out there, it is 99% garbage. But then, some people like nickleback.

I know of a couple of people monetizing successfully online, but they are niche artists. Maybe there is a clue there.

I'm just sick of shitty music.

It is amazing how much better of a player you can become when the money is not a factor, isn't it? Play because you love it, not because you have to. Relax and flow.

 



 
 

Yup. And that's pretty much the track my former bandmates have taken.

I say go for it. It sounds like you're going to make music regardless, so you just as well go ahead and do what you can to promote it.



 

Sounds exactly like Chimaira, then everyone but the singer jumped ship...

I know a guy in a local band, I buy their albums when they come out, been to a few of their shows. But they sound like a mix of old Trivium and old A7x and insert any other deathcore etc type of band...

Disclaimer: I never played in a band nor in front of anyone

Let me start with this disclaimer: I love music way too much to ever consider doing it for a living.

 There are so many levels and variables to this subject...random thoughts from 30+ years of doing this:

 1.  Having a good day job makes music so much more enjoyable.

 2.  The most successful musicians I've known were successful because they also had good business sense. PERIOD.

 3. Your talent as a musician will NOT make you rich, or even make you a decent living. The only people who truly understand and appreciate musical talent are other musicians, and they're not going to pay to hear you perform. You're a good singer? So are thousands of others.
 
 4. How much your band makes is directly proportional to how much your audience makes. Therefore, if the genre of your music is popular with kids, people covered in tattoos, with every square inch of there body pierced, or people who prefer drugs to food, you're not going to make money because your audience doesn't have money to spend to listen to you.

 5. The days of making money in clubs are gone due to stupidly strict DWI laws. Everyone, self included, is scared shitless of going out for a few drinks and to listen to their favorite band for fear of being pulled over on the way out of the parking lot and getting a DWI.

 6. Playing in bars is a PAIN IN THE ASS and seldom worth the effort. I personally book my band in to one bar maybe four or five times a year, because it has a built-in, tourist type crowd and the owner pays fairly good ($1000 for a 5-piece). Private gigs, about 95% of my work, are much, much better. Case in point: I played two last Saturday and came home with $500, next Friday $400 for one (although there will be about 450 miles of driving involved ). No merchandise to hassle with, no booking agents, no managers, etc. But private stuff is also dependent on having people willing to pay good money, which goes back to #4. It's also dependent on your genre. If a band plays head-banging, blood curdling rock, you're probably not going to book many weddings.

 7. I've worked with musicians who were absolute geniuses both musically and in other areas, but absolutely insisted on trying to make their living at music. None of them have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of.

 8. Playing both sides of the fence WORKS. By that I mean, I have my own band AND I job out playing with other bands.

 So to answer the original question, the local/area bands I see and occasionally perform with market pretty much in three ways: A website which is mainly for dates, a Facebook page, and at shows/dances, a few t-shirts and CD's. A good reputation and word of mouth are a phenomenal means of advertising.

I haven't played in years.  Not really looking to get onto anything ( since I'm moving to Savannah in a few months). But I am motivated to see what there is out there and helping it get heard.

All of your points were spot on, especially this one.  I play extreme metal.  Luckily, I am not dumb enough to think there is any money to be paid in playing extreme metal.  I can count on one hand the bands playing in that genre who make any real money.  Hence, I am not even gonna try and make a dime doing it.  I do it for the love of the genre, period.  The music I make in it is my baby, and my hobby, but my fulfillment is in having people hear it and enjoy it, not in any financial return.  Making a deathmetal album costs me more than it brings in.

Now, I also am involved in a rock project.  That has more potential to be somewhat of a money maker.  But I take the same approach.  As long as people enjoy it and I get my music in front of ears, I am happy.  If it happens to be a financial success...bonus. If it doesn't, I am totally fine with it.

If I wanted to make money as a musician, I would join up with business savvy musicians and start a wedding/corporate event band.  I would learn a bazillion cover songs, the chicken dance, etc.  But for me personally, I don't think I would find that fun, and so it wouldn't be worth the money for me.

You have to be realistic about your music, I agree.