I am basically of the belief that rock is best when played loudly, and as a bass player this is reinforced by the fact that in order to do my job I really need to "feel" the bass, and this means having a certain volume level.  Some people I meet (generally the better players I run into) echo this sentiment.

Others feel the opposite, that you don't need to play loud to have things sound good...

Discuss....

Depends on what you like to play, and what you play through.

Having a 100W tube amp that sounds best when running full tilt, going into a 4x12 so you can feel the pick attack in your chest, doesn't sound that good at apartment building/close neighbor levels.

Below you will find a pic of my answer about how rock is best played (hint: I wear ear plugs for daily practice).

It has been my feeling over the years...and as the years drag on I seem to play much more quietly

I try to be loud enough that I can be heard, but not so loud that I don't overpower anything either, and I actually play louder at home than I do at practice or at a gig.





ETA: The amps I currently have at my disposal. A modded Marshall JVM 410H, Splawn Pro Mod, and a Mesa 3 channel Triple Rectifier. Any one of them are plenty loud on their own.











 

Tube amps are meant to be played loud.
Non-tube amps are garbage and should not be played.

Therefore, the only amps that should be played are those you have to play LOUD.

Especially bass players.

If I turn my 60 watt amp over 3 then the neighbors call the cops.

I do not like playing loud. It masks mistakes with shrill noise.














 

ETA-I guess i'll go with, "It Depends" and go on to half ass complicate the subject





Tube amps do not have to be loud to get their tone, yes turning up the volume gets the break up going in the tubes but that is not the same as how great the volume is coming out of the speaker cabinet... but some may like the sound of the cab being pushed hard too..
I remember discussing with another player a long time ago about how when we played through our amps at lower volumes it seemed to have better tone in some regard or different tone than when they were cranked.




Do to tube break up of course and possible other factors. mayeb the tubes we had broke up too much cranked to 11 and had our preferred sound closer to 3 or 4.
Power break / attenuators can help you get the tone without having to damage your hearing, wear ear plugs or have the cops pay a visit.
I put my cabinet into 4' isolation box and use a power break. I mic the amp in the box and listen to it on my monitors.
All that being said, it is pretty damn enjoyable to stand in front of a stack cranked up to the sweet spot.





Playing loud and feeling it is more than just the sound, its also the experience, it can also depend on your style of playing, if you are really hearing and using that experience in your playing, how you hear it, how you position yourself to the amp, the room your in, reverberation, deflection etc.. if you use  feedback.
If I had the space I would much rather mic a stack in a room large enough to get in and play the amp and feel the speakers while I go deaf when I felt like it and then just leave the room and listen through monitors when I wanted it more tame and controlled.
ETA- drum kits, particularly hi hats do not sound better loud
 

Stage volume needn't be loud to have a "loud" rock show.

In fact, a good show should have a shit-ton of presence - not necessarily volume.








*The above is coming from me: from a guy who hits the drums with a fucking vengeance! I'm just repeating what engineers and sound techs have often told me (while chastising me for the way I play)!  

I usually play pretty loud in my house when nobody's home. It's only a 15 watt tube but they're NOS tubes and worth every penny. I have a 25 watt SS bass amp for my drum machine.

My jammin corner.


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Fair enough.

Zeppelin had a pretty good sound after all - and I'd guess Gonzo hit every bit as hard as I do.  

If you're playing alone or jamming with buddies, knock yourself out. But if your playing on stage for a paying audience it isn't about you, you're work for them. Too when you're playing in a band it isn't all about you.  A band has to work together in such a way that each musician compliments the others.

Wicked pedal board. Wicked.



You don't see too many folk dedicated to a stereo setup and using an octaswitch. Bad ass.



 

Thanks!

I built that board a month or so ago because I couldn't find a board big enough to hold the pedals I wanted on there. Even the Pedal Train Grande wasn't big enough. So I built this board out of a 36"x18" piece of plywood, some car undercoat, and a LOT of velcro (on top and underneath).

Sad thing is... I just picked-up a nice TC Nova Delay at the pawn shop a week ago and have no room for it!!!

I like the Octa-Switch because I hate tap-dancing, and also so that only the FX that I'm using at the moment are in my signal chain. It's a pig, but works well. I've spotted some other very capable loop pedals that are smaller and lighter, but the ones that I want are a lot more expensive.

And yeah... I've been running stereo rigs for years now. A pair of V30-loaded 4X12s run by a pair of complementary tube heads is just orgasmic. I've played musical chairs with Bogners, VHT, Engl, Elmwood, Marshall, Lickliter and other heads and this current Ceriatone setup sounds as good as any I've had. One is the RP 18/36 (4xEL84 -- very Marshally) and the other is the JTM45 (2x6L6 -- more Fendery). Whereas the first is very midrange oriented and chunky in the middle, the other is more scooped and fat on bottom with a top end presence. The result is a VERY full sound that is much bigger than the amps individually. I used to run the exact same amps in stereo rigs, but the tone produced doing it that way seems to be much less fat and 3D than the tone you get from two different heads that compliment each other. Yin-Yang and all that!


Oh... and ditto the sentiment about playing louder AT HOME than at gigs. The only gigs that I even get remotely loud at are outdoor gigs. I've always been very conscious about being too loud and obnoxious and have been told by many people over the years to turn UP at gigs. When I'm playing and someone dances by the stage and puts their fingers in their ears as they get within range of the 4X12's laser beam of sound... I always get self-conscious. I'm not there to cause people physical pain -- just have a good time and facilitate a good time for the crowd.

Love the concept of the Octaswitch, but its big and relatively expensive. Not as expensive as a GigRig, though. Not sure about the chinese loopers functionality..



Very nice setup. People don't realize that its not just money that goes into that, although you have laid down some scratch, but the time spent trying combinations of pedals and defining the signal chain can get ridiculous.

LOL... indeed. That was a big part of my playing time this summer -- dicking with pedals. I'm the opposite of a "tweaker" normally, so it took some patience for me to sit-down and work on it.

BTW... I've already added another pedal. But this one was purchased as something MUCH easier to haul around than that big board. It's called the T-rex Magnus. It's a multi-fx pedal. Sounds great and will be MUCH easier on my back than the big board. I picked it up in dead mint condition at a local music store for $100 last weekend. An AWESOME price, since I think they were closer to $500 new. Lovin it for the few days I've played through it! I'll have to attach a pic to this post when I get one taken.

Loud stage volume is the earmark of shitty players or out of control egos or both. Lots of people play loud to try to cover up how crappy they really are.

You want an overdriven tube amp sound? Get a 15W tube amp and drive the hell out of it, and let FOH amplify that. Your Marshall stack can be driven hard in an arena, but it's not for the local watering hole.

Nothing like having the weekend rock stars playing their little 100 person capacity bar and having people complain that the guitar is STILL too loud, even after the soundman has taken it completely out of the mix, and you still can't hear the vocals.

You WON'T be asked back.

You want to get in a pissing contest with the soundman? LOL. You'll lose every time.

Experience: Been in a successful, popular cover band for over 25 years as a bass player, and up until very recently we have run our own sound. Keeping your stage volume under control is the single most important thing you can do when it comes to having a great sounding live show. Keep your egos in check and do what's best for the band, rather than have an on-stage volume contest with the other members of the band.

ETA: I don't even have a bass rig anymore. My bass and a SansAmp gives me the sound I want through the mains. I run through the monitors with my own mix or (preferrably) with my in-ears. I show up to gigs now with nothing but my gig bag.

Yep,  I play small gigs so I play a small tube amp, 4W clean 5 or 6 maxed out.   I don't even need to turn up the MV all the way to blend with acoustic drums.  (Note:  I don't play clean tones.  I'd need more wattage if I did.)  We run 750W on the vocals between the monitors and house so they are crystal clear at our reasonable volume level.  The acoustic kit has the bass drum miced into the PA and we also reinforce the bass guitar (Ampeg B15n amp = 40 watts) with the PA.  All this leads to a reasonably loud but not painful performance.  (We max out at about 106dB)

If you play with a drummer, playing rock loud is usually a necessity to hear anything over the drums.  If you are playing rock with me, it is 100% mandatory if you want to hear anything but my drums.

That's not exactly a bragging point, you know. I'm glad our drummer can play anything using good technique without having to beat the drums like they owed him money.

yeah i dont know...Im a pretty decent bass player, but I need to be at a certain volume level where I feel air being moved in order to really get into things...at that point i control my volume with my fingers..

Well, another thing we learned over the years is that if you have big, CLEAN sound, you can get away with more decibels because it sounds good. Piercing, distorted, heavily overdriven mains sound like crap and will have people complaining that it's too loud. Same with feedback. It might not be that loud but it's annoying and people perceive it as loud.

Also, buy some great subwoofers for the FOH. Bass is omnidirectional so you'll feel it even on stage, and those on the dance floor will FEEL the kick drum. Plus you're lightening up the load on the mains so they'll sound crisper and cleaner.

I put all my investment into improving the FOH and monitors to a level that I didn't need a big bass rig. My 700W head, (2) 4x10s and (2) 15" bass cabinets are around somewhere, but I doubt I even have the speaker cables needed to hook them up.

I've been playing, teaching, and recording for 30 years. I've played well over 1K gigs in that time. From the smallest "barely fit in there" corners of the room, to large, outdoor amphitheaters. As stated earlier, I do tend to play much louder at home in the man cave than I do on stage. I don't like it when it's a battle to be heard over your bandmates and at times where it's been that way, I've chosen to turn-down and just not be heard. In fact, one time we had a guest guitar player sit-in with us and he wanted to play so loud that I finally unplugged and just went out and sat in the audience for the rest of the set -- rather than battle with him over volume (though I could've easily won).

But you cannot replace certain tones with a small 15 watt tube amp and expect it to sound the same as a sealed-back 4X12 or two, being fed by a 50-100 watt head or two. When I'm going for the "essence" of something really BIG sounding (like Tool, or early VH, etc)... nothing replaces that tight battering-ram tone of big iron pushing big speakers. Sure... I can mic my 20-watt Egnater Rebel 20 rig and get it plenty loud through the PA. And the PA will push plenty of air. But the tone being amplified will not be the same, and the tone/feel will not be the same. There's a reason that guys like Joe Bonamassa use several or many heads into many cabs (even in clubs). He uses a plexiglass shield. So do I.

That's another thing, I much prefer the clean headroom that larger-wattage amps provide. I spent my earlier years gigging trying to make smaller rigs do, because they're just easier to haul around. But for my application at the time (primarily country rock), I needed pristine CLEANS and smaller wattage amps don't do those at gigging volume. I've owned several 5-watt tube amps over the years. They were plenty LOUD for most gigs. But they lacked headroom, lower-end grunt/thump, and tightness.

I often see guys (not talking about you) with low-wattage amps on music forums saying that they are superior to larger rigs for playing live rock because they can crank them up and get power tube saturation. That's true. But there's much more to larger rigs than the desire to drive the power tubes. There's a reason that the half-stack is "the sound of rock", and it's not just because it looks cool. Things get tight and crunchy when you move to a good half-stack. And the comment above regarding volume covering-up for "shitty playing" is only half true. A clean rig with a tight response is very sensitive to a player's touch and technique, and as such will show the player's flaws (loudly). I've always preferred tube amps that were less spongy. I don't like mushy tone. I want even my overdriven tones to be "clean", dynamic, articulate, and I want to hear the note/string definition in there. Pushing a small tube amp to saturation is NOT conducive to that at all. Some tube compression is good. A lot of tube compression is bad if you're looking for the things I'm looking for in tone.

You're comparing your experience with bass rigs to guitar, and they only partially translate. I play bass as well as guitar, and I can tell you that it's MUCH easier to get a DI type bass setup to sound thunderous and huge through the mains/FOH than it is to get the guitar to sound that way. And that's because guitar has been designed from the get-go to be run through 12" speakers that break-up and are a very specific part of the tone chain. In fact, IMO speaker choice is every bit as important as the amp, the FX, and the instrument. I was reminded of this last winter when I did a speaker swap in my rehearsal rig. It's a Vox Tonelab LE tube modeler running into a Tech21 PowerEngine 60 2X12 cab. The speakers were Celestion 70/80s. My tone was okay, but nowhere close to my Vintage 30-loaded 4X12s in my tube rig(s). So I picked-up a pair of V30s and loaded them in the PowerEngine and it was night and day. Sounded so good that I'd have NO problem choosing to haul that rig around and gig it instead of my big rig. It isn't quite as big-sounding as my sealed-back 4X12s. But it's fairly close and at least the actual tone is right. I also have a single 1X12 cab loaded with a Vintage 30. It's just not the same. I need to get at least two 12" speakers moving air to get the tone that I want. So my 1X12 rigs have mostly been relegated to practice or rehearsals. Though I did do a big auditorium show last spring with my H&K Grandmeister head running into the 1X12 (sitting directly on the stage) that did seem to sound pretty big.

Yeah they're never exactly the same... but we found a little trick that helped with that issue though. My guitarist never liked his sound when he DI'd into the board. After trying endless tweaks and experiments, I got the idea to look up the frequency response curve from the speaker in his cabinet. That 12" cabinet doesn't have subs, horns, or anything... so we put a parametric EQ on his channel and painstakingly mocked the documented speaker frequency curve. It got us REAL close.

A very good/smart idea! And something I'll keep in-mind if/when I am forced to "go-small" in the future.

They ain't cheap, but a Two Notes Torpedo allows you to use Impulse Responses for that, and you can use Two Notes' IRs, most if not all third party IRs, or if you have the capability to make your own, you can use those too. The Torpedo C.A.B. is the stompbox version and the Torpedo Live is the rackmount version.

I have a friend who's got one of the smaller (non-rack) units. He really likes it. I'll keep an eye out for one at a sweet price down the road and pick it up when the time is right.

News flash...the sound drums make varies with the force you hit them with...it isn't simply a change in volume but a change in the tonal quality and resonance of the drums as well.

Can I play to all sorts of dynamic levels?  Sure.  But for rock applications my drums will sound best if played loudly.  My drum kit projects quite a bit anyways, and so if I am playing for a good rock sound, it is gonna be loud.  If you want it quiet, I can do that, but it certainly won't sound as good as it could.  

It isn't about beating the drums like they owed me money.  It is about getting the right sound out of my instrument for the type of music.  And it is also about the feel of the performance.  A slammin rock tune simply won't sound as good played with a great deal of restraint...it is no different than guitar in that regard.  It isn't just hitting the correct notes...two guitarists can play the same piece technically correct, but if one is playing the shit out of it, it is gonna sound different.

Oh I know that, and that guitar amps can sound better 'driven', etc...

However, while we musicians endlessly obsess over tone and other nuances, 99% of the typical patrons who will see your show don't care at all. If you're cutting an album, OK. If you're playing a 600+ capacity venue and it's packed full of people, OK. But if you're playing the <200 capacity local spot where most bands make their living, and your snare drum is driving people out of the club because it sounds like an unsuppressed rifle shot, your tone and resonance won't matter one bit.

We had a bar owner, when I was a teenager, come down to the bar after a show (he lived right upstairs). My dad was running sound for us at the time, and he asked him what he thought of us. His response... "I don't care if they stand on stage and light themselves on fire, as long as *this* (hefts cash register tray) is filled up whenever they play."

It was a good lesson in the realities of the bar band business, and illustrated the fact that we're not being paid to play music... we're all glamorized beer salesmen.

And if people end up leaving during your show because of volume, or the crowd starts falling off because you're too loud and the guys can't hit on the women because no one can hear the person shouting in their ear next to them, the owner won't have you back.

Music played well isn't always better loud. The ear can only hear so much. Sometimes loud over rides the real talent and people miss the absolute artistry in what is being played.

It's mind blowing when the BEST rockers have picked up an acoustic and played the exact same things without the board effects. That is when their real talent just shines through.

The audience loves the loud but if you love the music... The best songs are the ones that make people really listen. It's like yelling or being yelled at all the time. Do you hear the words.

Most of us tune it out after awhile. But when it's whispered... don't you try extra hard to listen? Go back and look at the top selling rocker songs. Listen to a few and then be amazed at the

variation in the voice of the guitars.

Open Arms

Stairway

More than Words

More than A Feeling

Kryptonite

Don't Stop Believing

Wish  You Were here Pink Floyd (check out the live David Gilmour  acoustic version) It was GREAT the first go round. Listen closely to the opening rift and then the build up. Tell me that is not killer ( and I love PF)

Metallica Nothing Else Matters. Listen to the rifts through out the song. The acoustic version builds as the song goes. That is when you get pulled in and connect with the listen. Playing softly got my attention. By the end that song OWNS you. It softens again and the words grab your attention. Is it great loud SURE. That song crescendos and decrescendos to rocking perfection.



There is something said for mind blowing sound waves that you can literally feel pulsating through your body. I have an appreciation for that. Then I always wonder what did I just miss.

The same could be said for a  good set list.

I practice at low enough volume to hear it all. I play live loud enough to hear it all over the crowd and my band.

It has to be loud enough to feel the low end. Good tone punches through.

If you are playing small bars then I agree...but 99% don't care or appreciate what you are doig anyways.  Most aren't there to see you, and would probably always be happier if you turned down so they can talk easier.

That's a big reason why I don't play those gigs.  Nothing against those who do who want to be consistently paid musicians.  It just doesn't compare to a proper concert at a 500 cap or greater venue where everyone is there to see the show, and you can get into your performance all you want.  The music sounds better, the performance is more inspired.  

I am rarely impressed by bar bands (talking bands who play the tiny corner in a bar/restaurant).  First off, because like most people I am not there to get my ears blown out, I came in for a drink.  2nd, even if the band is awesome, they usually have to tone it down so much you know you are getting a 50% show.  Normally when I see an awesome band in a bar, I'm not blown away but I am left feeling like "Those guys are clearly talented, I bet they put on a good show in a proper club."

In short, a performance is almost always going to be better in a music club or concert hall, where the event IS the band and everyone can go full tilt.  If the event is the food and beer tap, and the band is there secondary to that, it is not going to be as good.

I'm not trying to sound elitist or anything here, but playing those bars and expecting to play at sub-concert volumes and bang out rock cover tunes holds no appeal to me, so I don't do it.  Rock music gets sterile real fast if deliberately played to allow the waitress to catch your order of beer battered onion rings.

To add, as a spectator I am disappointed when I go to a big concert and the PA is not very loud.  I don't need to be deafened, but I feel you should "feel" the music as well.  Rock is meant to be played loud man.  Sure it welcomes nuance and softer passages, but those always work best when they are the setup for the loud rockin ass kickin that is coming at the end of the song.