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Posted: 7/11/2017 6:13:58 PM EDT




The engine ran strong; the only thing that provoked me to pull the oil filter was a slight drop in oil pressure. I would have not detected the drop without a modern engine monitor. Over 100 hours it dropped from 72psi to 65. I started doing filter changes every 25 hours. 20 hours after the last change, the pressure suddenly dropped to 63psi in cruise and that's when we found the metal. 60psi is the low end of the green; I doubt I would have even seen it on the factory gauge.
Link Posted: 7/11/2017 6:23:25 PM EDT
[#1]
I've only ever seen bearings that bad in a grenaded engine.
Link Posted: 7/11/2017 6:57:41 PM EDT
[#2]
What do the journals look like
Link Posted: 7/11/2017 7:18:51 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
I've only ever seen bearings that bad in a grenaded engine.
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That's what the shop said. They said it's one of the worst engines they've ever seen. Aside from the slight oil pressure drop and then the metal, there were no other symptoms. It ran and sounded strong and the airplane performed great.
Link Posted: 7/11/2017 9:11:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Damn tthose bearings are trashed! Glad you found them before it got worse.  How's the crank?
Link Posted: 7/11/2017 10:09:11 PM EDT
[#5]
That looks expensive.
Link Posted: 7/11/2017 10:20:34 PM EDT
[#6]
you don't have the best luck with engines 

glad you found it now 
Link Posted: 7/12/2017 12:03:56 AM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
Damn tthose bearings are trashed! Glad you found them before it got worse.  How's the crank?
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Dunno yet. I suspect I'll hear something in the next few days.
Link Posted: 7/12/2017 12:05:50 AM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
you don't have the best luck with engines 

glad you found it now 
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There's a chance that it may be related. Some of the cardinal guys say that have had bearings spin said that it's happened after a cylinder was removed.

ETA: I thought about this some more. I actually think I had pretty good luck with this engine. It was past TBO in hours and years (21+ years SFOH) and it didn't Glock itself with the bearings in that condition. I had the oil analyzed once while owning it a few hundred hours ago and it came back good. I am wondering if I had done frequent oil analysis if the bearing failure would've been evident in the reports.
Link Posted: 7/12/2017 6:05:47 PM EDT
[#9]
Yikes
Link Posted: 7/12/2017 6:33:43 PM EDT
[#10]
I'm always amazed at how junky aircraft engines are.  

I've grenaded three Tulsa 1340s in less than 1500 hours.  Combined.
Link Posted: 7/12/2017 7:18:12 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
There's a chance that it may be related. Some of the cardinal guys say that have had bearings spin said that it's happened after a cylinder was removed.

ETA: I thought about this some more. I actually think I had pretty good luck with this engine. It was past TBO in hours and years (21+ years SFOH) and it didn't Glock itself with the bearings in that condition. I had the oil analyzed once while owning it a few hundred hours ago and it came back good. I am wondering if I had done frequent oil analysis if the bearing failure would've been evident in the reports.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
you don't have the best luck with engines 

glad you found it now 
There's a chance that it may be related. Some of the cardinal guys say that have had bearings spin said that it's happened after a cylinder was removed.

ETA: I thought about this some more. I actually think I had pretty good luck with this engine. It was past TBO in hours and years (21+ years SFOH) and it didn't Glock itself with the bearings in that condition. I had the oil analyzed once while owning it a few hundred hours ago and it came back good. I am wondering if I had done frequent oil analysis if the bearing failure would've been evident in the reports.
I was actually gonna ask in your old metal contamination thread how it was going.
Oil analysis would have said what was going on.
Quick question,  what did the cylinder decks and case half mating surfaces at the through bolts look like? Was there peening or any surface irregularities that would indicate movement? Bearing journals are at through bolt locations of the cylinders and I have seen signs on cyl decks before on tsio continentals of this.
What happens when an engine is built is the bearings get a seat up squeeze during torquing of the through bolts. Once this is done it is done that is the reason when case halves are separated for a repair new bearings are required for reassembling. During a cylinder change that squeeze can be lost. Continental require torquing on both sides of through bolts when torquing, and the studs are supposed to be lubricated with engine oil before nut install, makes a huge difference in torque value - lube or dry. Don't know  about lycoming procedures we don't have any.
We typically build 4 or 5 engines year and have done 6 so far this year, 4 of them came from other shops, bad lifters wrecking the cam.
Link Posted: 7/12/2017 7:54:07 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
I'm always amazed at how junky aircraft engines are.  

I've grenaded three Tulsa 1340s in less than 1500 hours.  Combined.
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1000hr tbo, ain't making it. You have the crop duster right? How's come you haven't upgreydd to a pt6 work horse? Most radials are rich dude hobbies nowadays.
What is it that is failing on you? I have R2000, 985, and continental 670 experience.
Link Posted: 7/12/2017 10:49:32 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:


1000hr tbo, ain't making it. You have the crop duster right? How's come you haven't upgreydd to a pt6 work horse? Most radials are rich dude hobbies nowadays.
What is it that is failing on you? I have R2000, 985, and continental 670 experience.
View Quote
Yes sir.

My boss is an old radial guy.  A Tulsa rebuild is ~$50K, a used PT6 is $1/4MIL.
I've been running numbers and a -34AG would be a little cheaper to operate, but the initial purchase price is steep.  The airplanes we fly had Pre-Century Garrets on them for a couple of years back around '98-'00, and they blew up left and right.  Now boss is not interested in turbines anymore.  I'm sick of going down in the weeds, I thought my boss would be sick of hauling airplanes back to the shop with trucks and tractors by now...

#1)  Broke crankshaft at around 140hrs
#2)  Threw master rod at 400hrs
#3)  Not sure yet, engine enroute back to Tulsa, 370hrs
Link Posted: 7/12/2017 10:58:24 PM EDT
[#14]
Had the same problem on my ram(ram also being the problem) and found particulates in my gas. This allowed gas to get in the oil and thin it. You might check your fuel rail and filter for problems.

Also check the oil pump, metal from those barerings can damage it.
Link Posted: 7/12/2017 11:15:25 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
Had the same problem on my ram(ram also being the problem) and found particulates in my gas. This allowed gas to get in the oil and thin it. You might check your fuel rail and filter for problems.

Also check the oil pump, metal from those barerings can damage it.
View Quote
No rail or fuel filter on the aircraft engines, just a screen at the pickup and one at the fuel servo. I guess it's closest to Bosch K-Jetronic with mechanical metering and constant flow injectors. Blow-by and fuel contamination of the oil is "normal" in these engines. When you pull a prop on a high time engine, there's a lead paste in the inside of the crankshaft leftover from fuel. I saw a Jeep Wrangler the other day with a bumper sticker that said, "It's a hybrid: it runs on gas and oil" and thought it appropriate for these engines as well. A quart of oil every 4-6 hours is normal. Oil pump, the mechanical fuel pump, fuel metering and distribution parts get replaced at overhaul.

There was also spalling of lifters and one exhaust lobe had been rounded off on the camshaft.

Link Posted: 7/13/2017 6:17:35 AM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:


Yes sir.

My boss is an old radial guy.  A Tulsa rebuild is ~$50K, a used PT6 is $1/4MIL.
I've been running numbers and a -34AG would be a little cheaper to operate, but the initial purchase price is steep.  The airplanes we fly had Pre-Century Garrets on them for a couple of years back around '98-'00, and they blew up left and right.  Now boss is not interested in turbines anymore.  I'm sick of going down in the weeds, I thought my boss would be sick of hauling airplanes back to the shop with trucks and tractors by now...

#1)  Broke crankshaft at around 140hrs
#2)  Threw master rod at 400hrs
#3)  Not sure yet, engine enroute back to Tulsa
View Quote
Wow, I don't know what to say on the failure rate there. But that is 150k in rebuilds + loss of dispatch = no revenue + unscheduled maintenance almost could pay for a -34. I wouldn't swear off all turbine because of old garrets. It would also reduce scheduled maintenance costs, there is just less stuff to do at inspection time.
Link Posted: 7/17/2017 6:21:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Yup.

#3 had 370 hrs on since major.  

I'm trying to buy the business right now.  

1st thing to do is P&W -34 all the things!
Link Posted: 7/17/2017 6:43:14 PM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:
Yup.

#3 had 370 hrs on since major.  

I'm trying to buy the business right now.  

1st thing to do is P&W -34 all the things!
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There is a reason they don't use radials in 99.99% of commercial aviation.

 I love them, but they are just really old technology.
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 8:06:13 AM EDT
[#19]
Well, I have some updates. The overhauled engine arrived last week. It beat the prop/governor back. The overhaul shop reported that Divco was unable to service the case, but the shop did not charge me for the case that they used. The jury is still out on the crankshaft, but the shop believes it will be ok. My IA was concerned over the lack of 8130s and that the fuel servo was in a box, did not appear overhauled, and was accompanied by a hand-written bench test report. We got the paperwork for the new cylinder kits, starter, mags, and fuel distributor. I called the shop and they scanned and sent me the labels, et cetera for the new Superior camshaft, lifters, fand fuel pump. They said that they exchanged the fuel servo. Another IA said that it's not uncommon for the servo to have a used appearance to it after overhaul as all that's done is that the diaphragms get replaced, parts get inspected, and it gets flow checked.

I suspect there's a good chance that the only parts of my old engine that I got back may be the oil pan, the accessory case, and that ring on the top that you attach an engine hoist to.

I feel like I've done pretty well on this whole thing considering. The prop and governor were supposedly delivered last last week with the combined total on that being $1495, which included the governor overhaul, prop strip, paint, reseal, and installation of new studs. I am a firm believer that spending lots of money does not guarantee better results, but I also don't cut corners. I'm having some miscellaneous things done, such as having all of the 50 year old wires replaced.
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 8:37:27 AM EDT
[#20]
Looking at those parts adds credence to the old statement about engine oil screens only let you see the serial numbered part floating around inside the engine.
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 12:22:43 PM EDT
[#21]
See current revision of Lyc SB-240, this explains what is required at overhaul. Even mentions the fuel injector (commonly called servo) use the manufactures time limits, bendix I believe. Don't know how they did the engine test stand proof running without the servo on it unless it was removed after for shipping container fit.

Quick question, did you get the same s/n engine back? If not things like gami injectors and any stc/337 against the engine may be a mess now.

Had a customer w a P210 that a shop did an engine change over from another aircraft onto it. They put the intercooler system and everything firewall fwd. included the 337's with the log books. Problem was the intercooler was an airframe mod so the 337 was against a different aircraft.
Link Posted: 7/30/2017 9:36:14 PM EDT
[#22]
no 8130=no payment

what shop did you use?  

the FIRST thing inspected opening a box is the 8130 and verify the s/n matches whats in the box.  

The FAA couldn't care less if they just mailed you an 8130 with a data plate on a 2x4, if the paperwork matches you're good to go 
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 6:05:14 AM EDT
[#24]
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Another reason I'm glad I didn't go with a factory overhaul. I'm nearly certain the shop that did the overhaul used parts from Superior when available.

ETA: The shop confirmed that I am not affected by the SB, fortunately.
Link Posted: 8/3/2017 10:17:21 PM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:


Another reason I'm glad I didn't go with a factory overhaul. I'm nearly certain the shop that did the overhaul used parts from Superior when available.

ETA: The shop confirmed that I am not affected by the SB, fortunately.
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That's definitely good news!

Check out that S/N list... a lot of people are going to be PISSED.
Link Posted: 8/7/2017 9:47:53 AM EDT
[#26]
The engine is on the airframe now. My IA has a day job in the turbine world and it doesn't look like things will be ready before I hit the road for a month in a week. Just in case anyone is following this, I thought I'd mention and not just go dark.
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