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Posted: 3/20/2017 4:25:43 PM EDT
Guys, need some advice.
I have my certificate for single engine land. A buddy of mine has a Cessna 337 that he does not use. He just had the annual completed and asked me if I wanted to fly it. I said of course. It will only cost me fuel. He puts maybe 10 hours a year on it. Needs to use it a lot more often, which is whu he asked me to fly it.
I am now looking for an instructor here in Miami to get me checked out on it. I do not have that much time, about 150 hours. Should I stay away? It will cost me about the same flying this or renting a Cessan 152 wet.
I do not plan on jumping in a going, can't anyway, don't have endorsement. Thinking about 10 hours with an instructor to make sure I am good to go.
What do you all think???
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 4:41:02 PM EDT
[#1]
Isn't a Cessna 337 a twin engine (push/pull front and back) Can you fly it on one engine with a single engine certification?
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 4:42:35 PM EDT
[#2]
You'll never get a better deal on it. If you can afford it and the annual is recent, do it. Make sure you're insured (you and the aircraft).
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 4:52:01 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 5:00:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Isn't a Cessna 337 a twin engine (push/pull front and back) Can you fly it on one engine with a single engine certification?
View Quote
Yes it is, and No you can't...
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 5:09:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Insurance will have requirements for both total and type stick time. Those will be the minimum you need to meet.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 5:28:00 PM EDT
[#6]
Well this is why I would be using the instructor to get the training I will need to fly the 337. From what I am finding, it is a multi but with a centerline thrust restriction. Either way, cheapest way to fly. Need to look for insurance to see what that will cost. I am sure it won't be cheap! Then again, nothing in aviation is.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 5:32:04 PM EDT
[#7]
If you do not have a multiengine rating do not get it in a 337.  You'll be limited to centerline thrust.  In other words, your multiengine rating will be pretty much useless.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 6:27:31 PM EDT
[#8]
Fly it for a bit and get used to the speed and complexity of a twin. Then, go take a few hours in a Seminole for your multi ride with the money you save.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 7:31:30 PM EDT
[#9]
A 337 is a nice airplane.  Do your multi in it.  You will a rating that is restricted to centerline thrust only, but what do you care?  I'd do it in a heartbeat.  But, as said earlier, have him check HIS policy covering the airplane. How long would it take you to satisfy the policy minimums?

It's been a long time since I looked at one.  I think they have some problems with cooling the rear engine.  If I recall, there is a baffle or cowling mod that helps. Also, I think there are some gear issues.  If you're not paying for it, good for you!
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 8:08:50 PM EDT
[#10]
I never planned on getting a multi. I just want to know if this is a good safe airplane to learn on. Of course With the proper training and aircraft maintenance is done properly. I have flown 152's, 172's and several pipers. All are good aircrafts. This isn't one of those "death traps" right?
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 9:11:27 PM EDT
[#11]
A 337 is NOT a "safe" twin. The performance differences between losing the front and back engines are very similar to losing the critical engine in a conventional twin- well, honestly more like a counter-rotator conventional twin.

DO NOT get a multi- rating in a 336/337- get it in a conventional twin and then do several hours dual in the Mixmaster.

For the record, the only dual engine failure I have ever experienced was in a Skymaster, thanks to a failure in the fuel selector. Luckily I was on downwind when they both quit and had another pilot in the right seat to pump down the gear.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 9:13:49 PM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 3:07:36 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A 337 is NOT a "safe" twin. The performance differences between losing the front and back engines are very similar to losing the critical engine in a conventional twin- well, honestly more like a counter-rotator conventional twin.

DO NOT get a multi- rating in a 336/337- get it in a conventional twin and then do several hours dual in the Mixmaster.

For the record, the only dual engine failure I have ever experienced was in a Skymaster, thanks to a failure in the fuel selector. Luckily I was on downwind when they both quit and had another pilot in the right seat to pump down the gear.
View Quote
Fuel selector in a 337?  There's been a few issues with those
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 3:42:18 AM EDT
[#14]
It's impossible to say, without having flown with you, but I am guessing that you will need a lot more than 10 hours of instruction, before you are safe, or comfortable enough to teach yourself.  

I could put you in a sim, and tell you within 45 minutes.   I'm local.   Let me know if you want to talk plane stuff.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 8:21:11 AM EDT
[#15]
BillofRights,

I know 10 hours is low, but I should at least learn the airplane in 10. Starting to get comfortable with it will probably be another 10. Before feeling safe and secure probably another 10 and with the way students fly here at KTMB, another 50.
Would love to fly a sim. I am always ready to talk aviation. Do you fly out of KTMB?
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 5:19:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Sent you an email.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 8:41:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A 337 is NOT a "safe" twin. The performance differences between losing the front and back engines are very similar to losing the critical engine in a conventional twin- well, honestly more like a counter-rotator conventional twin.

DO NOT get a multi- rating in a 336/337- get it in a conventional twin and then do several hours dual in the Mixmaster.

For the record, the only dual engine failure I have ever experienced was in a Skymaster, thanks to a failure in the fuel selector. Luckily I was on downwind when they both quit and had another pilot in the right seat to pump down the gear.
View Quote
Don't have to worry about vmc roll at least. AD placard for takeoff leading with rear engine. Used to be a ton of them in
the Bahamas. Mechanics nightmare I'm told.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 9:07:19 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Don't have to worry about vmc roll at least. AD placard for takeoff leading with rear engine. Used to be a ton of them in
the Bahamas. Mechanics nightmare I'm told.
View Quote
You lead with and start the take-off roll with the back engine to make sure it's developing full power since you can see it. The rear engine also has heating issues due to the cooling set-up. As I understand, a STC was developed to minimize the heat problem, but I've never flown one with it installed.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 9:16:16 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Guys, need some advice.
I have my certificate for single engine land. A buddy of mine has a Cessna 337 that he does not use. He just had the annual completed and asked me if I wanted to fly it. I said of course. It will only cost me fuel. He puts maybe 10 hours a year on it. Needs to use it a lot more often, which is whu he asked me to fly it.
I am now looking for an instructor here in Miami to get me checked out on it. I do not have that much time, about 150 hours. Should I stay away? It will cost me about the same flying this or renting a Cessan 152 wet.
I do not plan on jumping in a going, can't anyway, don't have endorsement. Thinking about 10 hours with an instructor to make sure I am good to go.
What do you all think???
View Quote
337 is a multi, you can solo any plane you want, until you get a multi you can't carry passengers
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 9:41:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
337 is a multi, you can solo any plane you want, until you get a multi you can't carry passengers
View Quote
Never knew this.  Anyplace to rent a Lear?
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 9:43:26 PM EDT
[#21]
Can't solo without an instructors sign off.......which means dual has to take place first.  And any instructor would be an idiot not to place  restrictions on that sign off.

What's going to restrict is insurance.  Most likely the owner does not have coverage for instruction (outside of owners proficiency, recurrent, etc).  Letting someone else that isn't rated in the class, take instruction from a third party or solo is a whole nuther ballgame.  No way he's going to pay for more coverage.
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 6:43:51 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A 337 is NOT a "safe" twin. The performance differences between losing the front and back engines are very similar to losing the critical engine in a conventional twin- well, honestly more like a counter-rotator conventional twin.

DO NOT get a multi- rating in a 336/337- get it in a conventional twin and then do several hours dual in the Mixmaster.

For the record, the only dual engine failure I have ever experienced was in a Skymaster, thanks to a failure in the fuel selector. Luckily I was on downwind when they both quit and had another pilot in the right seat to pump down the gear.
View Quote
Say what?
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 7:29:40 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Say what?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
A 337 is NOT a "safe" twin. The performance differences between losing the front and back engines are very similar to losing the critical engine in a conventional twin- well, honestly more like a counter-rotator conventional twin.

DO NOT get a multi- rating in a 336/337- get it in a conventional twin and then do several hours dual in the Mixmaster.

For the record, the only dual engine failure I have ever experienced was in a Skymaster, thanks to a failure in the fuel selector. Luckily I was on downwind when they both quit and had another pilot in the right seat to pump down the gear.
Say what?
"Safe" in the sense that an engine failure is a non-event. Most of the multi-engine pilots I have met seem to think that flying a 336/337 on 1 is like flying a 182- which it's not.
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 8:40:12 AM EDT
[#24]
Of course I will be getting insurance. That is a given. I will be flying with an instructor for a while until; we both feel I am ready. I do know the issues with the aircraft and I believe he has done the rear engine cooling fix. He is an aircraft technician and has a shop at KTMB. I am also an A&P and Avionics Engineer. I would also be helping him maintain the aircraft. Least I can do for free use. I just need to find an instructor that has good time in a 337. I don't want just an instructor.
I would stick with single engine aircraft, but not many are available for rental around here and if you find one, they are crazy prices and have all kinds of restrictions. On weekends, If you have the aircraft for more than 2 hours, you have to pay for 5. Can't leave the airport area, so basically just touch and goes and basic manuevers just outside airport area.
So when this came up, its almost a must. Just got to make sure I do things right.
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 9:18:29 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
"Safe" in the sense that an engine failure is a non-event. Most of the multi-engine pilots I have met seem to think that flying a 336/337 on 1 is like flying a 182- which it's not.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A 337 is NOT a "safe" twin. The performance differences between losing the front and back engines are very similar to losing the critical engine in a conventional twin- well, honestly more like a counter-rotator conventional twin.

DO NOT get a multi- rating in a 336/337- get it in a conventional twin and then do several hours dual in the Mixmaster.

For the record, the only dual engine failure I have ever experienced was in a Skymaster, thanks to a failure in the fuel selector. Luckily I was on downwind when they both quit and had another pilot in the right seat to pump down the gear.
Say what?
"Safe" in the sense that an engine failure is a non-event. Most of the multi-engine pilots I have met seem to think that flying a 336/337 on 1 is like flying a 182- which it's not.
I've got a ton of time in 337s and from my experience people make way too big a deal out of them when it comes to engine loss. First off, it depends on which engine you lose. Better to lose #2 over #1 in terms of performance. But even if you lose #1 it's a hell of a lot better than losing #1 in a C-182. Whether or not you'll be able to maintain altitude will depend on how heavy you are and the air density. But even if you're at max weight on a hot day then you're left with a very slow, controllable descent. I think that's an ok trade for eliminating all Vmc issues.

I think it's just a matter of maintaining the right mindset for whatever aircraft you might be flying. The biggest gotcha in a 337 is a loss of #2 on takeoff. Amazingly, there was a rash of people that failed to realize they lost it and prematurely ended up back on terra firma in an unplanned fashion. But I can attest that if you maintain even minimal SA then a loss of #2 is extremely obvious even if you can't see the prop. It's noticeably less loud and your performance goes down to about 40%. But any normal scan ought to quickly reveal the manifold pressure needle heading to atmospheric pressure. Nevertheless, as OscarDeuce can attest, Cessna installed a giant red light on the glare shield to inform the SA deficient types that they lost the rear engine. I always thought that was an unnecessary fix to a minor problem. But then again, I never flew the thing in a combat zone. I suppose that'd be considerably more distracting.

But regardless of all that, an engine loss in the 337 isn't that big of a deal and doesn't make the aircraft dangerous unless you think all single engine aircraft are dangerous.  I could make a much easier case that a Beech Duke or a bunch of other twins are more dangerous because not only does their single engine performance suck balls but they have Vmc issues as well.
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 9:30:53 AM EDT
[#26]
I've got a few hundred hours in C-337's as well.  As far as the cooling - the front engine will tend to run hotter than the rear during flight in later model (G & H) Skymaster's.  You have to watch the rear engine on the ground, with cowl flaps open at idle the oil temperature will get relatively high if you have a long departure delay during warm temperatures.  Pointing into the wind will help keep the oil temperatures lower to some degree, like any plane.  The one I have the majority of my time in ('75 "G" model") was one of the most reliable, trouble-free light twins I ever flew...
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 9:34:38 AM EDT
[#27]
Going to go over this weekend and take a look at the airplane and get some info so I can get an insurance quote.
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 9:38:43 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've got a few hundred hours in C-337's as well.  As far as the cooling - the front engine will tend to run hotter than the rear during flight in later model (G & H) Skymaster's.  You have to watch the rear engine on the ground, with cowl flaps open at idle the oil temperature will get relatively high if you have a long departure delay during warm temperatures.  Pointing into the wind will help keep the oil temperatures lower to some degree, like any plane.  The one I have the majority of my time in ('75 "G" model") was one the most reliable, trouble-free light twin I ever flew...
View Quote
Most of mine was in the G too and I totally agree with you. Easiest twin to fly ever. I was more concerned with the gear system working correctly than I ever was the engines. Gotta be one of the most fun twins to fly too. Has a hell of a roll rate.
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 11:00:01 AM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:
Never knew this.  Anyplace to rent a Lear?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
337 is a multi, you can solo any plane you want, until you get a multi you can't carry passengers
Never knew this.  Anyplace to rent a Lear?
The problem is if you go rent one, the FBO will want to see your ratings and check ride you. If you buy one you make your own rules, you can solo without the ratings, just no passengers
Link Posted: 4/9/2017 12:43:04 PM EDT
[#30]
I don't think there is any way you would get insured to fly that solo even with a CFI sign off.

Use it to get your MEL, earn a new rating and have fun while learning some new stuff.
Link Posted: 4/9/2017 1:01:44 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You lead with and start the take-off roll with the back engine to make sure it's developing full power since you can see it. The rear engine also has heating issues due to the cooling set-up. As I understand, a STC was developed to minimize the heat problem, but I've never flown one with it installed.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


Don't have to worry about vmc roll at least. AD placard for takeoff leading with rear engine. Used to be a ton of them in
the Bahamas. Mechanics nightmare I'm told.
You lead with and start the take-off roll with the back engine to make sure it's developing full power since you can see it. The rear engine also has heating issues due to the cooling set-up. As I understand, a STC was developed to minimize the heat problem, but I've never flown one with it installed.
Our veterinarian and his buddy, who owned the airplane, are the reason for that placard. They took off out of HOU on a hunting trip, they took off without the back engine making low/no power. They wound up in a ball just outside the perimeter fence off the end of the runway. I was 14 years old and my Dad was supposed to go on that trip, he got tied up at the last minute and cancelled. Our friend's new wife has just dropped him off at the airport and she heard on the radio before she got home. The 337s and O2s are good airplanes, if operated correctly, like any plane. Maybe Oscar Duece will be along, he got lots of time and used to own an O2.
Link Posted: 4/10/2017 12:07:33 PM EDT
[#32]
Polish Buzz Bomb
Link Posted: 4/10/2017 1:13:32 PM EDT
[#33]
lol
Link Posted: 4/10/2017 8:56:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Polish Buzz Bomb
View Quote
Mix Master around here.
Link Posted: 4/10/2017 9:09:45 PM EDT
[#35]
All teasing aside, I'd kick in a C note for an hour in a 337 or O-2.

One of you in N TX or Central TX have one or know someone who does?

Always wanted to fly one !!
Link Posted: 4/10/2017 9:14:16 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Mix Master around here.
View Quote
Poor man's P-38, .... a term that applied to OV-10's once upon a time
Link Posted: 4/12/2017 9:32:32 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Our veterinarian and his buddy, who owned the airplane, are the reason for that placard. They took off out of HOU on a hunting trip, they took off without the back engine making low/no power. They wound up in a ball just outside the perimeter fence off the end of the runway. I was 14 years old and my Dad was supposed to go on that trip, he got tied up at the last minute and cancelled. Our friend's new wife has just dropped him off at the airport and she heard on the radio before she got home. The 337s and O2s are good airplanes, if operated correctly, like any plane. Maybe Oscar Duece will be along, he got lots of time and used to own an O2.
View Quote
I saw the exact same thing happen when I was a GA mechanic working out of Atlantic Aero in GSO.  Balled up just outside the perimeter fence at the end of runway 32 (which would put it on runway 5L, which was not there "back in the day").  We mechaincs used to call the 337 a "suck and blow".
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