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Posted: 4/9/2015 1:50:49 PM EDT
Heads-up to occasional pilots. 1,500 hours later, my personal rules for flying is ...
1.) I don't fly unless I can see the ground. 2.) I don't get up on top cause I can't see the ground. 3.) I don't fly over water cause water ain't ground. 4.) I don't fly at night cause I can't see the ground 5.) I don't fly in clouds cause I can't see the ground 6.) I don't fly in rain, as lack of windshield wipers prevents me from seeing the ground. R.I.P. to these gents. Note fog around squad car. 
Cessna 414 6 dead |
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Posted: 4/9/2015 2:51:47 PM EDT
[#1]
Always know and respect your limits.
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Posted: 4/9/2015 2:53:50 PM EDT
[#2]
I have no problems flying when I can't see the ground if the circumstances require it.
But I don't fly recreationally. At all. I only fly professionally and I don't do it with family or friends. It's my job, not a hobby. |
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Posted: 4/9/2015 2:58:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have no problems flying when I can't see the ground if the circumstances require it. But I don't fly recreationally. At all. I only fly professionally and I don't do it with family or friends. It's my job, not a hobby. I rarely fly for just the heck of it, I'm usually hot shotting something somewhere. |
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Posted: 4/9/2015 3:51:18 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I rarely fly for just the heck of it, I'm usually hot shotting something somewhere. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have no problems flying when I can't see the ground if the circumstances require it. But I don't fly recreationally. At all. I only fly professionally and I don't do it with family or friends. It's my job, not a hobby. I rarely fly for just the heck of it, I'm usually hot shotting something somewhere. FedEx could do same thing for you without you having to get in the Navion  . There's nothing wrong with flying for recreation as long as you know you limits and accept that there is a certain amount of risk involved every time you go up. The trick is to know your limits and minimize the amount of risk you are taking.
Mark's rules listed above will certainly limit the amount of days/time one can fly per year but will drastically improve the chances of one flying for many years. I mainly use the same rules as Mark. For someone flying for fun there is no need to add to the already inherent risk of general aviation in small, single engine aircraft. I'm working on my instrument rating mainly for the intellectual curiosity of it and also to make me a safer pilot. I'm collecting tickets as a hobby as I go along. After I get my IFR I plan on doing commercial, then multi, then CFI as time permits. I've found a couple cool places to get a seaplane rating if I can talk the wife into that type of "vacation" 
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Posted: 4/9/2015 6:40:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have no problems flying when I can't see the ground if the circumstances require it. But I don't fly recreationally. At all. I only fly professionally and I don't do it with family or friends. It's my job, not a hobby. Did we ever fly together at the airlines? I bet your a hoot to work with. 
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Posted: 4/9/2015 7:14:12 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did we ever fly together at the airlines? I bet your a hoot to work with. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have no problems flying when I can't see the ground if the circumstances require it. But I don't fly recreationally. At all. I only fly professionally and I don't do it with family or friends. It's my job, not a hobby. Did we ever fly together at the airlines? I bet your a hoot to work with. LOL No. 
My post definitely didn't come out the way I intended it to. |
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Posted: 4/9/2015 7:45:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL No.
My post definitely didn't come out the way I intended it to. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have no problems flying when I can't see the ground if the circumstances require it. But I don't fly recreationally. At all. I only fly professionally and I don't do it with family or friends. It's my job, not a hobby. Did we ever fly together at the airlines? I bet your a hoot to work with. LOL No.
My post definitely didn't come out the way I intended it to. Good. Pilots, as a group, fly for many different reasons. Generally speaking the really outstanding ones I have crossed paths with over the last 55 years of my flying career did it because they loved it with every fiber of their being. The thrill of a J3 on a calm morning can compare, in its own way, with the burner light of a Concorde. It's all special. I always felt sorry for the pilots that only did it just for a paycheck. |
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Posted: 4/9/2015 7:51:49 PM EDT
[#8]
You are missing out on a lot of fun! Flying an ILS to minimums is an exhilarating feeling.
Flying SE at night is for the birds, though. |
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Posted: 4/9/2015 9:51:06 PM EDT
[#9]
I agree with Mark's rules, if flying single-engine or non-IFR equipped airplanes.
Even a very nice 182 doesn't have the redundancy to maintain the highest level of safety in the event of a failure, except under VFR daytime. Having said that, I've flown a lot of hours commercially in single engine aircraft under IFR, and even hard IFR at night a few times. We sometimes accept risks we can't mitigate, for better or worse. I personally consider it the equivalent of riding a motorcycle on the street (although in actuality it's many times safer). When you move into turbojet aircraft, it's a different ball game. Even on my Emergency Bus, I have more equipment and better avionics than that 182. I can shoot a precision LPV or ILS down to minimums and go missed, on one engine (which are 11,000% more reliable than piston). We fly precision approaches down to minimums and often rely on the approach lighting system to find the runway, as designed. I do this all the time, and believe we maintain an excellent level of safety. If I thought we didn't, I wouldn't be flying passengers in these conditions. |
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Posted: 4/9/2015 9:57:50 PM EDT
[#10]
Nigtvision will help you see the ground at night.
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Posted: 4/9/2015 10:13:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are missing out on a lot of fun! Flying an ILS to minimums is an exhilarating feeling. Agreed! I had a guy up front with us a couple weeks ago flying into Austin at night. Weather was indefinite ceiling, 1/2 mile visibility. The guy was a sport pilot, and actually a CFI-sport, but not an IFR flyer. Came down the ILS at more than twice the speed he's used to on approach, picked up the rabbit trail right at minimums, got the REIL and continued another 100', picked up the runway and landed, all within seconds. All he could say was "WOW!" He said it has to be similar to landing on a carrier. I've never gotten to do that, so I wouldn't know, but it made a really cool impression on him. I told him I couldn't imagine doing anything else for a living, this was too cool. |
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Posted: 4/9/2015 10:32:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Good advice unless you have an instrument ticket and are proficient (not just current).
I've flown my homebuilt RV-6A IMC many times, including ILS and RNAV approaches. It does has redundant attitude, comm, nav, but doesn't have a redundant engine. Then again, that didn't help Colgan 4307, TransAsia GE235, or Asiana 214. It comes down to pilot skill more than equipment redundancy, because pilot error is the cause of a crash far more often than is equipment failure. I also can't help but notice that many times the same folks who poo-poo IMC in anything other than a multi-engine kerosene burner are the same folks who typically hand-fly the aircraft only if they absolutely have to. My airline friends who actually hand fly the A320, the MD88, and so on are the same folks who have no problem hand flying a Bonanza, Cherokee, or RV in the goo. It's an interesting correlation. ETA: On re-reading this, it comes off kind of dickish. It's not meant to be - the point is that safety starts with the pilot. Unless the pilot is proficient, equipment only delays the inevitable. |
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Posted: 4/10/2015 5:02:25 AM EDT
[#13]
Mark is a man that knows his limitations.
I love flying at night. NVGs let me see all kinds of shit 
I love IMC since the CH47F is an amazing instrument platform. |
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Posted: 4/10/2015 5:09:47 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mark is a man that knows his limitations. I love flying at night. NVGs let me see all kinds of shit
I love IMC since the CH47F is an amazing instrument platform. Mark is a man that spoke to a guy that had two separate engine outs during night flying, you know, the trim up and wait for the impact kind. Mark read the future on the man's face. 
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Posted: 4/10/2015 8:13:19 AM EDT
[#15]
Sad accident. A pilot has to know his limitations, especially in low IFR. Minimums are minimums are minimums. A 414 is not you average hobby pilot airplane.
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Posted: 4/10/2015 8:33:13 AM EDT
[#16]
I started flying 20+ years ago flew for about 110 or so hours then stopped for the normal reasons. Started flying again about a year ago, was signed off and have about 20 or so hours back. I have only ever flown for the love of it. Never really to go anywhere in particular other than an airshow or pancake breakfast.
My limitations are very similar to the OP. I wish money weren't an object for me right now but it is and I just can't fly as much as I would like (a few times a month at best) right now. In a few years when the house is paid off that may change. I would want to be really proficient if I was going to fly IFR, at night or IFR at night. I just don't see being able to afford the rating and stay current and more importantly proficient. I will say I occasionally get the itch I have a friend with an SR22 he uses for going places and the appeal of getting in your own plane and getting where you want to go when you want to go is pretty appealing. I want to work on tailwheel endorsement next and then who knows. Not getting any younger. When I retire in another 15 or so years if I am still healthy and can afford to fly I would like to do more travel in a private plane when I have time to sit out bad weather and such. No hurry just go where the winds take me so to speak. |
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Posted: 4/10/2015 8:33:19 AM EDT
[#17]
The only times I fly through IMC are when my airline or the military is paying me to do so. As already stated, the airliner has multiple redundancies which make it much more comfortable. When flying for the military, as a last resort, I can eject. I find flying straight and level through weather, incredibly boring! You can't see anything and you're just staring at instruments...not a lot of fun. Now flying low. slow, window open, in a tailwheel, on and off of grass strips, using an atlas as a map...that's fun!
So my plan is to buy a plane with a panel like this one, so I won't even be tempted to fly bad weather. 
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Posted: 4/10/2015 8:37:24 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only times I fly through IMC are when my airline or the military is paying me to do so. As already stated, the airliner has multiple redundancies which make it much more comfortable. When flying for the military, as a last resort, I can eject. I find flying straight and level through weather, incredibly boring! You can't see anything and you're just staring at instruments...not a lot of fun. Now flying low. slow, window open, in a tailwheel, on and off of grass strips, using an atlas as a map...that's fun! So my plan is to buy a plane with a panel like this one, so I won't even be tempted to fly bad weather. <a href="http://s228.photobucket.com/user/jamesgevay/media/Champpanelemail.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee225/jamesgevay/Champpanelemail.jpg</a> I wouldn't mind taking a month (or two)and flying around the country in a Champ or a Cub. Low(reasonably) and slow my favorite kind of flying. |
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Posted: 4/10/2015 10:30:31 AM EDT
[#19]
its great to have your own personal limitations. i enjoy flying at night, but you are limited on options if something were to go south. IFR is fun too as long as the freezing level isnt too low. for some of you guys that isnt an issue but what i fly is not FIKI and up here in the PNW we get all sorts of fun gooey weather
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Posted: 4/10/2015 10:49:31 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
its great to have your own personal limitations. i enjoy flying at night, but you are limited on options if something were to go south. IFR is fun too as long as the freezing level isnt too low and you have your outs if need be. for some of you guys low freezing levels isnt an issue but what i fly is not FIKI and up here in the great PNW we get all sorts of fun gooey weather |
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Posted: 4/11/2015 12:30:35 AM EDT
[#21]
Currently, I only fly professionally. We have hard limits, but I also keep some "This ain't a good idea" limits that only get challenged if there is a really good reason to launch. I don't enjoy IMC very much...SVFR I'm cool with, to a point.
If I was flying for recreation, my limits would be pretty similar to the OP's. First, flying on a nice day is more enjoyable to me. Second, I'm not going to be pushing safety limits just for the fun of it! |
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Posted: 4/11/2015 1:06:11 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Currently, I only fly professionally. We have hard limits, but I also keep some "This ain't a good idea" limits that only get challenged if there is a really good reason to launch. I don't enjoy IMC very much...SVFR I'm cool with, to a point. If I was flying for recreation, my limits would be pretty similar to the OP's. First, flying on a nice day is more enjoyable to me. Second, I'm not going to be pushing safety limits just for the fun of it! I love flying in IMC. 
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Posted: 4/12/2015 7:48:04 PM EDT
[#23]
I must be nuts then, because I fly at night, over water and above the clouds when I can... in a single engine airplane.
I've had 3 engine failures in 3200 hours of flying- 2 in multi-engine aircraft, 1 in single-engine. Planning and training saved the day in all 3 instances. While I agree that a person should set their own personal limits, it's seems to me a damn shame to limit the utility of a multi-thousand dollar piece of equipment. |
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Posted: 4/13/2015 12:08:11 AM EDT
[#24]
IMC... especially any icing with anything less than four engines is just crazy.
In all seriousness though, I don't do "actual" other than just punching through a few puffies on cross country in a single engine. If I really am in a hurry, I won't be flying a little airplane. |
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Posted: 4/13/2015 4:53:46 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only times I fly through IMC are when my airline or the military is paying me to do so. As already stated, the airliner has multiple redundancies which make it much more comfortable. When flying for the military, as a last resort, I can eject. I find flying straight and level through weather, incredibly boring! You can't see anything and you're just staring at instruments...not a lot of fun. Now flying low. slow, window open, in a tailwheel, on and off of grass strips, using an atlas as a map...that's fun! So my plan is to buy a plane with a panel like this one, so I won't even be tempted to fly bad weather. <a href="http://s228.photobucket.com/user/jamesgevay/media/Champpanelemail.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee225/jamesgevay/Champpanelemail.jpg</a> When I decided to buy a Champ, I thought that I would miss flying at night. I don't. I always loved it, and it's a great experience to share with others, but there was always a warning light on in my brain, knowing that if the engine quit, my chances were less than good. |
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Posted: 4/13/2015 10:54:01 AM EDT
[#26]
You haven't lived until you've flown formation in IMC and done airdrops. Lead a formation through an entire route from departure, drop, and recovery not having seen the ground until you land again.
IMC isn't bad at all if you've got a capable aircraft. Route study, brief it up thoroughly, fly blackline and adhere to the mins. Having said that, now picture IMC from a different perspective: you and 60 or so of your buddies are crammed in the back of a C-130 and its shitty weather outside- training can't be lost. Mins needed for Army training drops are 200 AGL, but can be waived by the supported commander/user. Imagine being the soldier that jumps out into that and doesn't see the ground until you're 200' (or less) above it. You jump, hear the sound of aircraft around you, but can't see squat until you break out...trusting you're at a safe altitude and over the DZ. Need some big brass ones to do that. (It's not typically done, but could be- especially in contingency ops- though most every DZ and user has mins that require conditions of the normal 800A or greater for static line training drops). Back to the original subject: I don't prefer to fly IMC in single engine aircraft, but have that tool in the bag to use if I need to. Like my instructor told me way back when: "You fly in IMC to get to VMC, or to save your ass. If the weather is too crappy, try again tomorrow or go on United." Words to live by. |
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Posted: 4/15/2015 5:51:41 PM EDT
[#27]
I enjoyed single pilot imc in my Mooney the most. Always felt most comfortable if I had at least a 500'
ceiling and couple of miles viz underneath. Then again most of my flying was in Florida where for all practical purposes the ground was at sea level. |
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Posted: 4/17/2015 2:40:59 PM EDT
[#28]
I love severe clear night flying, especially on the 4th of July. But I also love night flying when there are huge violent thunderstorms off in the distance.
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Posted: 4/17/2015 7:04:02 PM EDT
[#29]
newbie pilot here and for sure my personal minimums are more strict that what FAA might allow. Perfect example was this morning. Went out at sunrise for a planned 2 hour local flight. Weather was decent as I taxied plane over to fuel up but airport 30 miles away was starting to get marginal so I decided to sit tight for an hour and see what happens. Sure enough... low clouds rolled in and when I called it... ceiling was 900' and still dropping. My instructor taught me for VFR, when in doubt... better to wait and see rather than try to beat the weather.
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Posted: 4/17/2015 8:28:18 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I enjoyed single pilot imc in my Mooney the most. Always felt most comfortable if I had at least a 500' ceiling and couple of miles viz underneath. Then again most of my flying was in Florida where for all practical purposes the ground was at sea level. Aha! I have a Mooney and fly in Florida. I'm curious what happened in this accident. 12,000 hour PIC stuffs a 414 in on a precision approach to minimums (or below). There appears to be burn marks on the fuselage, so I'm gonna guess he had fuel. |
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Posted: 4/18/2015 7:36:48 AM EDT
[#31]
I have tons of IMC hours. I don`t fly anymore. We sold almost everything including our plane and retired a few years back. I miss flying BUT not the risk management aspect of it. I found myself getting overconfident. I know,,,an over confident pilot. lol. We now travel by truck and trailer for the most part. I still miss breaking out at minimums and knowing that was going to be the case. I still know many active pilots and chuckle when they tell me about their last "flight home without my low enroute charts".
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