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Posted: 1/16/2015 9:41:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 10:27:05 PM EDT
[#1]
Those who can, do.

Those who can't, flight instruct until they've built enough time.

Those who can't teach work for the FAA.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:03:02 AM EDT
[#2]
I was an instructor for 2000 hours or so.  Mostly instrument. I would agree that no amount of FTD time replaces real world flight instrument training. Been over 10 years back but it came back home to me the other day.

Last Tuesday night I was repositioning our Citation Bravo single pilot and alone in the plane from the Citation Service Center at MCO to our home base at BTR. As usual I was monitoring guard. A woman keyed up all panicked and disoriented. She was lost and in some clouds. As soon as I heard her plight and the fear in her voice I knew it was over. Multiple controllers tried to get her down safely and in the end she stopped answering the radio. When the controller called out to her multiple times with no response I knew exact what had happened. I googled it after I landed at BTR and was not surprised to read that an inexperienced pilot splashed a 152 twenty feet from the shore at Smyrna Beach, FL.

During the whole time I was listening to the inevitable from 40,000 feet above the GOM I was wishing so badly I could be there with her to get her down safely.


Not the first wreck I've witnessed over the radio or even seen in person. But this one took several minutes and I knew it was going to happen the whole time. In my opinion the last controller gave her bad advice but it's not my place to question her. What this all comes to is that I absolutely believe that there should be more emphasis placed on instrument training and that no amount of PCFTD or whatever fake sims today are called can replicate a real sim or real flight training.


Handful of things I will never forget and the fear in that woman's voice is one of them.


RC
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:31:41 AM EDT
[#3]
Sims are great for learning the rote procedures and developing 'muscle-memory', but NOTHING replaces the experience gained in a real-world environment.

I'm rusty as a railroad spike as far as instrument skills go and won't dare take off on a trip that has more than soft IMC until I do an IPC (next week).

A lot of that IPC will be in a sim, just to re-validate my scan and get the feel for it again, but I'm still gonna take a trip, with a current CFII, in the clouds and in the system before I call myself current.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:46:51 AM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 8:05:04 PM EDT
[#5]
Good. Too many pilots who have no business flying IFR up there as it is. Don't make it easier to get the rating.
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 9:36:51 PM EDT
[#6]
I agree that there is no substitute for "real world" IFR training.   I'm working on my instrument right now.  The first time I got into actual with my instructor I instantly got dizzy and disoriented as soon as the window turned white.  I didn't lose my composure and stayed glued to the instruments but it was a scary feeling.  This was after having several hours or so logged under the hood.  I can easily see how VFR pilots crash shortly after running into IMC if they don't have significant instrument time and lose their wits.   I haven't done any time on a simulator but do not see how it would be as effective with your feet planted firmly to the floor.

Wasn't there an NTSB link on this forum a few weeks back about a guy who tore the wings off a Pilatus while flying in IMC.  If I remember correctly he had not been in actual IMC in a very long time (several years perhaps) and had just recently gotten his instrument renewed with a lot of sim time.  Granted, I think some of it was that he was flying too much airplane for his skill level but he did end up getting into a descending turn without realizing it once the autopilot shut off.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 12:10:19 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I agree that there is no substitute for "real world" IFR training.   I'm working on my instrument right now.  The first time I got into actual with my instructor I instantly got dizzy and disoriented as soon as the window turned white.  I didn't lose my composure and stayed glued to the instruments but it was a scary feeling.  This was after having several hours or so logged under the hood.  I can easily see how VFR pilots crash shortly after running into IMC if they don't have significant instrument time and lose their wits.   I haven't done any time on a simulator but do not see how it would be as effective with your feet planted firmly to the floor.

Wasn't there an NTSB link on this forum a few weeks back about a guy who tore the wings off a Pilatus while flying in IMC.  If I remember correctly he had not been in actual IMC in a very long time (several years perhaps) and had just recently gotten his instrument renewed with a lot of sim time.  Granted, I think some of it was that he was flying too much airplane for his skill level but he did end up getting into a descending turn without realizing it once the autopilot shut off.
View Quote


I was wondering if this was the reason for the change also
Link Posted: 1/20/2015 4:39:15 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I was an instructor for 2000 hours or so.  Mostly instrument. I would agree that no amount of FTD time replaces real world flight instrument training. Been over 10 years back but it came back home to me the other day.

Last Tuesday night I was repositioning our Citation Bravo single pilot and alone in the plane from the Citation Service Center at MCO to our home base at BTR. As usual I was monitoring guard. A woman keyed up all panicked and disoriented. She was lost and in some clouds. As soon as I heard her plight and the fear in her voice I knew it was over. Multiple controllers tried to get her down safely and in the end she stopped answering the radio. When the controller called out to her multiple times with no response I knew exact what had happened. I googled it after I landed at BTR and was not surprised to read that an inexperienced pilot splashed a 152 twenty feet from the shore at Smyrna Beach, FL.

During the whole time I was listening to the inevitable from 40,000 feet above the GOM I was wishing so badly I could be there with her to get her down safely.


Not the first wreck I've witnessed over the radio or even seen in person. But this one took several minutes and I knew it was going to happen the whole time. In my opinion the last controller gave her bad advice but it's not my place to question her. What this all comes to is that I absolutely believe that there should be more emphasis placed on instrument training and that no amount of PCFTD or whatever fake sims today are called can replicate a real sim or real flight training.


Handful of things I will never forget and the fear in that woman's voice is one of them.


RC
View Quote


Very sad! From what I just read she was trying to build time. According to her LinkedIn in page she was instrument qualified. If all else fails folks keep the wings level and climb!
Link Posted: 1/22/2015 5:03:27 PM EDT
[#9]
In my opinion the qualifications for an instrument rating are a joke.






There ought to be actual IMC time required to get the rating.







ETA




I know it's hard to get actual IMC where a large percentage of training happens at.  

 
Link Posted: 1/22/2015 5:07:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Those who can, do.

Those who can't, flight instruct until they've built enough time.

Those who can't teach work for the FAA.
View Quote


Saw a guy at work yesterday wearing a t-shirt. On the font it said, "HEY! FAA!"  On the back was lip prints with, "AT LEAST KISS ME FIRST!"

Link Posted: 1/22/2015 7:28:47 PM EDT
[#11]
The comments to the NPRM make me wonder about the sanity of the submitter.  If you are having exposure to real icing/thunderstorms/emergencies during initial instrument training, you are doing it wrong.

I don't see anything wrong with learning the basics in a FTD or sim.  Doing multiple approaches, or droning around the holding pattern can be learned just as well in a sim or FTD, as it can in the airplane.  There still needs to be actual aircraft time, and cross countries to bring it all together, but I think the ability to stop, reposition, instruct as necessary and debrief with a playback would be a much better way to learn the basics of instrument flight.

IMHO, if you can fly the sim well, you can fly the airplane better.

I must be in the minority, but in all my years of flying, I've never had a bad interaction with the FAA.  Every ASI or POI I've ever had any dealings with have been good guys and gals.
Link Posted: 1/24/2015 7:50:36 AM EDT
[#12]
Like Clint Eastwood said " A man has to know his limitations ".   You can get real good instrument training in something like a level D sim.
Link Posted: 1/24/2015 9:55:25 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Like Clint Eastwood said " A man has to know his limitations ".   You can get real good instrument training in something like a level D sim.
View Quote


these aren't level D sims they are talking about.  These are PC's at a desk.  There are some "Professional" initial and recurrent schools for King Airs and such that use non motion sims also.  I have wondered how any insurance company or the feds signed off on it.
Link Posted: 1/24/2015 1:52:09 PM EDT
[#14]
The FAA realizing that their prior decision was utterly fucking retarded and changing their minds is not "taking a step backwards".
Link Posted: 1/24/2015 4:02:52 PM EDT
[#15]
I did 3.5 hours of sim time with my instrument training, and it wasn't really that helpful. I was able to get 4.5 actual IMC during training which was a huge help. Nothing beats actually flying the airplane.
Link Posted: 1/24/2015 8:48:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 1/24/2015 10:17:12 PM EDT
[#17]
I would like to add that the students I had that used a home based system (microsoft flight sim was current then) performed much better under the hood than those that did not practice at home.
Link Posted: 1/24/2015 10:27:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I was wondering if this was the reason for the change also
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I agree that there is no substitute for "real world" IFR training.   I'm working on my instrument right now.  The first time I got into actual with my instructor I instantly got dizzy and disoriented as soon as the window turned white.  I didn't lose my composure and stayed glued to the instruments but it was a scary feeling.  This was after having several hours or so logged under the hood.  I can easily see how VFR pilots crash shortly after running into IMC if they don't have significant instrument time and lose their wits.   I haven't done any time on a simulator but do not see how it would be as effective with your feet planted firmly to the floor.

Wasn't there an NTSB link on this forum a few weeks back about a guy who tore the wings off a Pilatus while flying in IMC.  If I remember correctly he had not been in actual IMC in a very long time (several years perhaps) and had just recently gotten his instrument renewed with a lot of sim time.  Granted, I think some of it was that he was flying too much airplane for his skill level but he did end up getting into a descending turn without realizing it once the autopilot shut off.


I was wondering if this was the reason for the change also


Yikes!
Link Posted: 1/25/2015 5:24:49 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Sims are great for learning the rote procedures and developing 'muscle-memory', but NOTHING replaces the experience gained in a real-world environment.
View Quote


This.  The sim is great for working on some procedures, but it would be a horrible mistake to let MORE sim time take away from real world experience.  There's no replacement for the real world experiences of:

- popping in and out of big puffy clouds that make your instruments do all kinds of wild dances
- getting a thin layer of ice on the airplane while being in a cloud 3000 feet below the predicted icing level...

If it was up to me, those fair weather state flying schools wouldn't exist anymore.  IFR training should be done in areas that have actual weather to fly in.
Link Posted: 1/26/2015 3:30:24 AM EDT
[#20]
I never thought I would say this, but the FAA is right (in this particular instance).  

Procedure trainers can be helpful, if you have a good instructor and a motivated student.  However, Not as a replacement to actual flight time.    

The IFR ticket is no joke.  For people that are careless or over confident, It's a license to kill innocent people, most likely their loved ones who trusted them most.  

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