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Posted: 10/31/2014 1:20:56 AM EDT
Richard Branson has made his millions taking risks, but even the most seasoned gambler might raise an eyebrow at his latest venture. The high-flying entrepreneur's Virgin Atlantic airline is to become the first in Europe to put newly qualified pilots into the cockpit of a long-haul aircraft.On Thursday the company launched a new programme offering potential airmen and women the chance to join the airline with no previous flying experience.
The would-be pilots will be "part of the Virgin family from day one", with the future flyers programme being run in partnership with pilot training company CTC Aviation. The 18-month programme includes pre-flight training, full motion flight deck simulation at CTC Aviation's crew training centre at Southampton, and flight training in Phoenix, Arizona. It leads towards the Civil Aviation Authority's latest multi pilot licence and a position as a Virgin Atlantic co-pilot operating the Airbus A330-300. Applicants are required to have a minimum of five GCSEs or equivalent including maths, science and English. Virgin's flight operations general manager David Kistruck said: "Our people have always been at the heart of Virgin Atlantic and we're delighted to offer this opportunity to a whole new generation of flyers. "They'll be part of the Virgin family from day one and will enjoy an opportunity like no other, as the only trainee pilots in Europe to fly straight onto long-haul aircraft once qualified." Earlier this year it emerged pilots are racking up debts of £100,000 or more to pay for their flight training ,leaving them just £500 a month to live on once they land a job with an airline. The British Airline Pilots’ Association found that over half of the cadet pilots it surveyed had to find £75,000 to £100,000 to fund their training and one in six said they had to pay £100,000 or more. Data supplied by Balpa show that unless freshly qualified pilots manage to get a job with a major flag-carrying airline such as British Airways they can expect to earn about £27,000 to £29,000 a year. This would eventually climb to a basic salary before allowances of £56,000 to £66,000 as a captain with more than a decade’s service and four to eight years in command. By contrast, British Airways pilots flying short-haul routes out of Heathrow or Gatwick can expect to start on nearly £52,000, rising to £102,000 after 20 years’ service. LINK |
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LoL. What an Arrogant fuck.
There are thousands of existing pro pilots that would love to have that job. If the Captains are smart, they will refuse to do OJT with these proposed Ab Initio useful idiots. |
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You can teach almost anyone to sail, fly a plane, etc... but there are few that we would trust as "captains" to take 300+ souls across the open ocean.
When something goes wrong is when you wish you had some way to weed out the 99.99999% of lesser sailors from the few "captains" with years of experience that can be trusted with the lives of others. |
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Pffft. Everyone knows the Airbus don't need no steenking pilots!
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You can teach almost anyone to sail, fly a plane, etc... but there are few that we would trust as "captains" to take 300+ souls across the open ocean. When something goes wrong is when you wish you had some way to weed out the 99.99999% of lesser sailors from the few "captains" with years of experience that can be trusted with the lives of others. View Quote That isn't actually it. You don't need to be Chuck Yeager, but you do have to have the Professionalism and Consistency, to do it correctly for tens of thousands of trips spread over 35 years. It doesn't take a .01 % er, but it does take a truly dedicated and gifted professional. Maybe a 10% er. Despite what ignoramuses like Dick Branson might think, these planes do not yet fly themselves. There are 1000 little Gotchas on any given flight, any one of which, can Korea Air you at the drop of a hat. It's a little bit hard to explain, but the more HiTech they get, the more insidious the Gotchas get. |
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Ab initio training is nothing new. Many regional airlines do it here in the US as well as other countries.
I have transitioned many pilots in an Ab initio program to state of the art airline equiptment. They are not Captains but First Officers and the Ab Initio program allows them to be trained with dicipline fron day one. I dont believe this will take away from hiring already quilified pilots but provide one more stream to choose from. |
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Arrogant fuck? Maybe!
But I personally think this is a good idea for future pilots, depending on the level of student they select. He's basically offering a free ride, bypassing the bullshit special snowflake route! |
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The big problem with any of the ab-initio/cadet/MPL ideas IMHO is that now every line captain is going to be an instructor. An airplane full of people is no place to be giving basic dual. I was a line training captain for years on turboprops and jets. It's hard enough with an experienced pilot who is new on type. With a MPL student who has around 100 hours of actual airplane experience, and a few hundred hours in a simulator, they couldn't pay me enough, and I wouldn't want to ride in the back.
Long haul is even better. How many landings are these MPL pilots going to get in real life? I have friends flying in Asia, at some of those airlines, the FO is never allowed to takeoff or land. I've got a better idea, how about the airlines paying a better wage, with better working conditions. Then they can attract more experienced pilots. |
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Arrogant fuck? Maybe! But I personally think this is a good idea for future pilots, depending on the level of student they select. He's basically offering a free ride, bypassing the bullshit special snowflake route! View Quote LoL, special snowflake? Meaning what? Better look into who is getting into the Ab Initio programs in other countries. Start with the F/O of that Malaysian Air which disappeared. it's all connections. Special Snowflake indeed. |
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The big problem with any of the ab-initio/cadet/MPL ideas IMHO is that now every line captain is going to be an instructor. An airplane full of people is no place to be giving basic dual. I was a line training captain for years on turboprops and jets. It's hard enough with an experienced pilot who is new on type. With a MPL student who has around 100 hours of actual airplane experience, and a few hundred hours in a simulator, they couldn't pay me enough, and I wouldn't want to ride in the back. Long haul is even better. How many landings are these MPL pilots going to get in real life? I have friends flying in Asia, at some of those airlines, the FO is never allowed to takeoff or land. I've got a better idea, how about the airlines paying a better wage, with better working conditions. Then they can attract more experienced pilots. View Quote Consumers would have to be willing to pay higher ticket fares for that |
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LoL, special snowflake? Meaning what? Better look into who is getting into the Ab Initio programs in other countries. Start with the F/O of that Malaysian Air which disappeared. it's all connections. Special Snowflake indeed. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Arrogant fuck? Maybe! But I personally think this is a good idea for future pilots, depending on the level of student they select. He's basically offering a free ride, bypassing the bullshit special snowflake route! LoL, special snowflake? Meaning what? Better look into who is getting into the Ab Initio programs in other countries. Start with the F/O of that Malaysian Air which disappeared. it's all connections. Special Snowflake indeed. Does any anyone know if the Asiana crew in San Francisco were in a similar program? |
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Not sure about that paticular airline but most Asian airlines have a program like that run under the goverment.
My problem wasnt with this thpe of program but the Captain is god culture. Captains are often hired directly from the military to the laft seat including single pilot fighters. Crew Resource Managment (CRM) clashes with culture so when the Captain is missing up no one want to undermine his authority by speaking up or he doesnt listen. Most of the issues I saw when training these asian crews and the issues flying the line were the result of this. US, Canada and Europe have a strong CRM culture so this type of program works better and I had very few issues due to a stromg CRM culture. |
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Many of us have predicted this for years, many of my views are similar to what other posters have already stated in this thread. The numbers are on the side of the pilots here, increasing demand and diminishing supply's of "qualified" bodies. China, Germany and others have been engaged in this type of training for a long time.
Have you looked at what it costs to go to medical school? I'm 56, already collect a pension from a previous airline and have turned down several positions in Asia, India and the Middle-east to fly tactical ISR. My current job pays very well, but the living conditions down range are a bit austere. Great flying jobs are where you find them, the only advice I give the younger guys is always keep improving your resume and keep you personal and professional life in order. |
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Ahhh and the multi-crew license establishes a beach head in the US.
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A system could fail and the pilots (ignoring the stall warning) stall the aircraft 38,000ft to the ocean, killing all 228 people onboard. Oh, wait.. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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What could possibly go wrong? A system could fail and the pilots (ignoring the stall warning) stall the aircraft 38,000ft to the ocean, killing all 228 people onboard. Oh, wait.. Air France? Saw that documentary. Yikes. |
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Wish they would count landings instead of autopilot hours.
500 freight landings before passengers would be a good start. |
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Wish they would count landings instead of autopilot hours. 2500 landings before passengers would be a good start. View Quote Something that people out side the business don't know, and pilots within the airlines don't want to admit, is that your instinctual flying ability doesn't advance much, after you make it into the world of FMS/Autopilot/Autothrottles. |
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fify. Something that people out side the business don't know, and pilots within the airlines don't want to admit, is that your instinctual flying ability doesn't advance much, after you make it into the world of FMS/Autopilot/Autothrottles. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Wish they would count landings instead of autopilot hours. 2500 landings before passengers would be a good start. Something that people out side the business don't know, and pilots within the airlines don't want to admit, is that your instinctual flying ability doesn't advance much, after you make it into the world of FMS/Autopilot/Autothrottles. The only people that have 2500 landings are prob jump pilots. Not sure I want them up front if I don't have a chute. |
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I don't understand the problem with a jump pilot. If he's flying your airliner he doesn't have a chute.
(former jump pilot) 500 landings in freighter before flying pax? Same airframes, same rules. Pilot is the first one to the crash. (former self loading cargo pilot, current freighter pilot) |
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Video gamers please apply with logged hours of flight sim hours.
Airbus is a plane that takes the pilot out and inserts a moron at the controls. |
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I don't understand the problem with a jump pilot. If he's flying your airliner he doesn't have a chute. (former jump pilot) 500 landings in freighter before flying pax? Same airframes, same rules. Pilot is the first one to the crash. (former self loading cargo pilot, current freighter pilot) View Quote I want my airbus pilot doing split s in a util aircraft to get on the ground with style for the tandem. |
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Ab initio training is nothing new. Many regional airlines do it here in the US as well as other countries. I have transitioned many pilots in an Ab initio program to state of the art airline equiptment. They are not Captains but First Officers and the Ab Initio program allows them to be trained with dicipline fron day one. I dont believe this will take away from hiring already quilified pilots but provide one more stream to choose from. View Quote What airline in the US is taking someone with 0 hours, putting them through training and hiring them? I'm pretty sure there are none. |
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The only people that have 2500 landings are prob jump pilots. Not sure I want them up front if I don't have a chute. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Wish they would count landings instead of autopilot hours. 2500 landings before passengers would be a good start. Something that people out side the business don't know, and pilots within the airlines don't want to admit, is that your instinctual flying ability doesn't advance much, after you make it into the world of FMS/Autopilot/Autothrottles. The only people that have 2500 landings are prob jump pilots. Not sure I want them up front if I don't have a chute. I was a jump pilot and I know a lot of people that were or still are. Out of all of those I know, there's only one that would fall into that category that you speak of. I'm not sure where you got your opinion of them at, but it's wrong. I'm flying at my second airline and I had things happen to me as a jump pilot that gave me great experience dealing with emergencies. That experience has come in handy now that I'm flying at my second airline. If you don't mind me asking, who do you fly for? |
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Well, it sounds like a good deal for the aspiring aviator--flying job without a $100K debt! Additionally, IF the training program is good enough, it may work. The military pins on wings with roughly 200-300 hours of flight time. There are plenty of pilots who started flying co-pilot on 707-sized or larger aircraft with less than 500 hours total time.
...I would be wary of the quality of the training program. That's where lives will be made or lost. |
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The only people that have 2500 landings are prob jump pilots. Not sure I want them up front if I don't have a chute. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Wish they would count landings instead of autopilot hours. 2500 landings before passengers would be a good start. Something that people out side the business don't know, and pilots within the airlines don't want to admit, is that your instinctual flying ability doesn't advance much, after you make it into the world of FMS/Autopilot/Autothrottles. The only people that have 2500 landings are prob jump pilots. Not sure I want them up front if I don't have a chute. . that makes no sense. A CFI or freight dog will have 2500 hours in a couple years, within the first 1500 hours. A regional airline pliot will put down 7-800 landings per year. 2500 ldgs is just an example. Point is, pilots should have some experiance before they attempt to fly anything with people in the back. It's not really a controversial subject. |
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I was a jump pilot and I know a lot of people that were or still are. Out of all of those I know, there's only one that would fall into that category that you speak of. I'm not sure where you got your opinion of them at, but it's wrong. I'm flying at my second airline and I had things happen to me as a jump pilot that gave me great experience dealing with emergencies. That experience has come in handy now that I'm flying at my second airline. If you don't mind me asking, who do you fly for? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Wish they would count landings instead of autopilot hours. 2500 landings before passengers would be a good start. Something that people out side the business don't know, and pilots within the airlines don't want to admit, is that your instinctual flying ability doesn't advance much, after you make it into the world of FMS/Autopilot/Autothrottles. The only people that have 2500 landings are prob jump pilots. Not sure I want them up front if I don't have a chute. I was a jump pilot and I know a lot of people that were or still are. Out of all of those I know, there's only one that would fall into that category that you speak of. I'm not sure where you got your opinion of them at, but it's wrong. I'm flying at my second airline and I had things happen to me as a jump pilot that gave me great experience dealing with emergencies. That experience has come in handy now that I'm flying at my second airline. If you don't mind me asking, who do you fly for? Ok I'm wrong. I generalized jump pilots based on the reputation of a few and my only skydiving experience was around 2001 in Warton TX. Pilot would roll the twin otter and pull a split-s for the tandem camera man. |
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. that makes no sense. A CFI or freight dog will have 2500 hours in a couple years, within the first 1500 hours. A regional airline pliot will put down 7-800 landings per year. 2500 ldgs is just an example. Point is, pilots should have some experiance before they attempt to fly anything with people in the back. It's not really a controversial subject. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Wish they would count landings instead of autopilot hours. 2500 landings before passengers would be a good start. Something that people out side the business don't know, and pilots within the airlines don't want to admit, is that your instinctual flying ability doesn't advance much, after you make it into the world of FMS/Autopilot/Autothrottles. The only people that have 2500 landings are prob jump pilots. Not sure I want them up front if I don't have a chute. . that makes no sense. A CFI or freight dog will have 2500 hours in a couple years, within the first 1500 hours. A regional airline pliot will put down 7-800 landings per year. 2500 ldgs is just an example. Point is, pilots should have some experiance before they attempt to fly anything with people in the back. It's not really a controversial subject. Your statement was confusing. How many hours per landing does a freight dog get? I said 500 freight flights would be a good start 2500 landings I guess would be a could of years in a type rated aircraft? My original statement places more value on flights/landings than autopilot hours. I'm only a lowly ppl with more landings than hours. |
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The long haul pilots do a lot more sitting and looking at screens and a lot less taking off and landing than the short haul guys. Any pilot can get from London to Newark . Flying around New England in the winter and doing Albany / Newark 5 times a day is much tougher IMHO.
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What airline in the US is taking someone with 0 hours, putting them through training and hiring them? I'm pretty sure there are none. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Ab initio training is nothing new. Many regional airlines do it here in the US as well as other countries. I have transitioned many pilots in an Ab initio program to state of the art airline equiptment. They are not Captains but First Officers and the Ab Initio program allows them to be trained with dicipline fron day one. I dont believe this will take away from hiring already quilified pilots but provide one more stream to choose from. What airline in the US is taking someone with 0 hours, putting them through training and hiring them? I'm pretty sure there are none. Peoplexpress used to take people with 250 hours, a commercial multi, and FE written. And I remember some commuter lines guarenteeing you a job at the end of their school zero to ATP. |
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Minimum time requirements here in the states have gone up considerably in response to some unfortunate incidents.
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I may be wrong, but didn't Lufthansa do the same thing at one time? I seem to recall in my MAC days hearing about them hiring and training pilots from scratch, figuring it was better to train them into the Lufthansa system instead of having outsiders.
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LoL. What an Arrogant fuck. View Quote Militaries all over the world (including our own) take young kids with little to zero flight experience, train them, and then turn them loose in sophisticated high powered aircraft. Many of which make most civilian airliners look like cute toys. With great results I might add. |
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Militaries all over the world (including our own) take young kids with little to zero flight experience, train them, and then turn them loose in sophisticated high powered aircraft. Many of which make most civilian airliners look like cute toys. With great results I might add. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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LoL. What an Arrogant fuck. Militaries all over the world (including our own) take young kids with little to zero flight experience, train them, and then turn them loose in sophisticated high powered aircraft. Many of which make most civilian airliners look like cute toys. With great results I might add. Please tell me you are joking.. Airlines cannot afford the Government sponsored accident rate. They are private companies that pay for their own insurance. Our Government has deep, virtually unlimited pockets. We may have the greatest Military in the history of the world, but the Mishap rate is dismal, compared to the airlines. You have no clue. Look it up. |
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Please tell me you are joking.. Airlines cannot afford the Government sponsored accident rate. They are private companies that pay for their own insurance. Our Government has deep, virtually unlimited pockets. We may have the greatest Military in the history of the world, but the Mishap rate is dismal, compared to the airlines. You have no clue. Look it up. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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LoL. What an Arrogant fuck. Militaries all over the world (including our own) take young kids with little to zero flight experience, train them, and then turn them loose in sophisticated high powered aircraft. Many of which make most civilian airliners look like cute toys. With great results I might add. Please tell me you are joking.. Airlines cannot afford the Government sponsored accident rate. They are private companies that pay for their own insurance. Our Government has deep, virtually unlimited pockets. We may have the greatest Military in the history of the world, but the Mishap rate is dismal, compared to the airlines. You have no clue. Look it up. Are you quoting the accident rate for freighters and tankers only vs airlines or including fighters, helicopters and CAS types included? That wouldn't be a very fair comparison at all. The .MIL does an incredible job. |
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Please tell me you are joking.. Airlines cannot afford the Government sponsored accident rate. They are private companies that pay for their own insurance. Our Government has deep, virtually unlimited pockets. We may have the greatest Military in the history of the world, but the Mishap rate is dismal, compared to the airlines. You have no clue. Look it up. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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LoL. What an Arrogant fuck. Militaries all over the world (including our own) take young kids with little to zero flight experience, train them, and then turn them loose in sophisticated high powered aircraft. Many of which make most civilian airliners look like cute toys. With great results I might add. Please tell me you are joking.. Airlines cannot afford the Government sponsored accident rate. They are private companies that pay for their own insurance. Our Government has deep, virtually unlimited pockets. We may have the greatest Military in the history of the world, but the Mishap rate is dismal, compared to the airlines. You have no clue. Look it up. So basically what you're saying is that we should all trust you because you're butthurt about a rich guy doing what he wants with this own company? No thanks. Pretty large difference between pushing autopilot buttons at 30k feet and calling yourself a pilot and being down in the dirt doing combat maneuvers. Risk usually involves consequences. When you're ready to compare apples to apples, let us know. Until then, rant on. |
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Are you quoting the accident rate for freighters and tankers only vs airlines or including fighters, helicopters and CAS types included? That wouldn't be a very fair comparison at all. The .MIL does an incredible job. View Quote He's not quoting anything. As far as I can tell, he's making it up to make himself feel better. |
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He's not quoting anything. As far as I can tell, he's making it up to make himself feel better. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Are you quoting the accident rate for freighters and tankers only vs airlines or including fighters, helicopters and CAS types included? That wouldn't be a very fair comparison at all. The .MIL does an incredible job. He's not quoting anything. As far as I can tell, he's making it up to make himself feel better. I completely agree that the overall military accident rate is probably higher than US airlines, including regionals. I would suspect that if you remove single fighter planes and helicopters from the mix, it becomes very comparable accident rates. I have no statistics to back up my claims, only SWAG, but based on news reports, you just don't hear about many airline or non-fighter/helicopter military crashes. |
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So basically what you're saying is that we should all trust you because you're butthurt about a rich guy doing what he wants with this own company? No thanks. Pretty large difference between pushing autopilot buttons at 30k feet and calling yourself a pilot and being down in the dirt doing combat maneuvers. Risk usually involves consequences. When you're ready to compare apples to apples, let us know. Until then, rant on. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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LoL. What an Arrogant fuck. Militaries all over the world (including our own) take young kids with little to zero flight experience, train them, and then turn them loose in sophisticated high powered aircraft. Many of which make most civilian airliners look like cute toys. With great results I might add. Please tell me you are joking.. Airlines cannot afford the Government sponsored accident rate. They are private companies that pay for their own insurance. Our Government has deep, virtually unlimited pockets. We may have the greatest Military in the history of the world, but the Mishap rate is dismal, compared to the airlines. You have no clue. Look it up. So basically what you're saying is that we should all trust you because you're butthurt about a rich guy doing what he wants with this own company? No thanks. Pretty large difference between pushing autopilot buttons at 30k feet and calling yourself a pilot and being down in the dirt doing combat maneuvers. Risk usually involves consequences. When you're ready to compare apples to apples, let us know. Until then, rant on. You really are clueless. Look up the statistics. I'm not going to waste any of my time trying to educate you. You are arguing an unsupportable position. But go ahead. By all means, Keep trying. |
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Says the guy posting unsupported opinions. And I'm not "arguing" anything. I posted a few simple statements and you flew off the handle. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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You are arguing an unsupportable position. Says the guy posting unsupported opinions. And I'm not "arguing" anything. I posted a few simple statements and you flew off the handle. I'm pretty busy right now, but I'll try to find the time next month to gather all the statistics you need. I really shouldn't have to do it for you though. If you're a pilot, then You should care about safety. You should seek facts, over opinion and ego. I didn't fly of the handle. You will find very few professional pilots in support of ab initio hiring - and for good reason. It's a bit shocking when you run into one. It's like getting paired up with a liberal for a 3 day trip. It happens, but it is thankfully, very rare. |
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I lol'd. Or a guy that only wants to eat at Applebees. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It's a bit shocking when you run into one. It's like getting paired up with a liberal for a 3 day trip. It happens, but it is thankfully, very rare. I lol'd. Or a guy that only wants to eat at Applebees. Damn, you flew with that guy too? |
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