I found a link to this gem on another forum: http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/4008.pdf

The long of the short of it is that these two guys co-owned a Piper Apache and flew it together. One of them was a CFI and they both logged all of their flight hours as PIC. They had seven months of identical logbook entries. The tach time on the aircraft was nowhere near the hours logged. They had a partial engine failure in Montana due to icing and were unable to maintain altitude. They landed short of the field and a gopher hole caused the nose gear to collapse. The FAA discovered their logbook entries, determined that they were falsifying their logbooks and revoked all of their certificates.

Ever met one of those army guys that says you can multiply your army time by 1.2 to make it civilian time?

Yet not a single one of those asshats will subtract the time they spend sitting in the FARP or waiting flat pitch for their passengers.

Every time someone mentions this idiocy I just say the Army operates under AR 95-1.  Your DA 759 reflects that.  You want to play reindeer games with your own logbook, go for it.  Employers know what a DA 759 is and what it means.  They've been doing this longer than you have and they know what a weasel smells like.

I would also bet their insurance company refused to pay the claim on the basis of falsified time.  Edited to add: if they were building time for a flying career, they will have to Splain that violation to every potential job.

I thought that ATP requirements already allow military pilots to have only 750 hours instead of 1500 like the rest of us.

These discussions have gone on for decades and predate the latest changes.

And FYI-  The new 750 hours military only qualifies them for Restricted Privileges.

Where these guys really screwed up was turning their logbooks over to the FAA.  You are under no duty to log flights that are not being used toward currency or ratings.  So, if they would have just shown three t/o's and landings in the last 90 days and a copy of their last 8710, they would have been legal.  But they turned over everything......

I don't condone what they did, but never give anyone more information they need because IT CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU.

You can write in 100 hrs of time in the Space Shuttle in your log book......as long as you don't sign it or use it for anything, it's pure fiction.  Your "logbook" can be a book, spreadsheet, or a bar napkin.  You don't need to show them every flight you ever did......just the absolute minimums with the basic info (date, tail number, type a/c, dep/dest, landings, time.)

Now for instruction, a CFI must maintain those records for three years and have a description of the instruction.  The student is under no obligation to log it or show it, except at the application of a rating.  After that, the 8710 works.

This needs to be repeated...

Is Safety Pilot time under Part 91 no longer allowed? If one guy is under the hood, its legit time, IIRC.

But yeah, your requirements to log time are for proficiency and currency, and nothing else.

That is a very interesting comment. Can you expand on it? If the FAA asks for my logbook, I DO NOT have to give them it?  could just write on a sheet of paper a flight I did (actually did) that included three TO/Landings and a copy of my flight review and be 100% legal?

There is no requirement to hand over a log book if it is kept?

As for these two… Yep, they are screwed. The biggest mistake (IMO) was trying to modify it after the fact. They should of logged all the flights as simulated inst with one acting as a safety pilot.

FAR 61.51 (Yeah.. it's long winded)

§61.51   Pilot logbooks.
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:

(1) General—

(i) Date.

(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.

(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device, as appropriate.

(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by §91.109 of this chapter.

(2) Type of pilot experience or training—

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.

(v) Training received in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device from an authorized instructor.

(3) Conditions of flight—

(i) Day or night.

(ii) Actual instrument.

(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.

(iv) Use of night vision goggles in an aircraft in flight, in a flight simulator, or in a flight training device.

(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—

(1) Preflight preparation;

(2) Preflight procedures;

(3) Takeoff and departure;

(4) In-flight maneuvers;

(5) Instrument procedures;

(6) Landings and approaches to landings;

(7) Normal and abnormal procedures;

(8) Emergency procedures; and

(9) Postflight procedures;

(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—

(1) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and

(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.

(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

(g) Logging instrument time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.

(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook—

(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and

(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.

(4) A person can use time in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for acquiring instrument aeronautical experience for a pilot certificate, rating, or instrument recency experience, provided an authorized instructor is present to observe that time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session.

(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:

(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and

(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

(i) Presentation of required documents. (1) Persons must present their pilot certificate, medical certificate, logbook, or any other record required by this part for inspection upon a reasonable request by—

(i) The Administrator; (this means the FAA inspector too)

(ii) An authorized representative from the National Transportation Safety Board; or

(iii) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer

Just remember that your logbook only has to show recency of currency and should be the ONLY logbook you show; the feds can dig up your last 8710.

Also, the times entered on your medical are official times, according to my AME. If you lose your logbooks, you can get a print out with those times.

Yeah, you can do that.  But you can't go log a few hundred hours like that especially if it's 100% of your last few hundred hours.  It looks suspicious when you're claiming you taxied and took off under the hood.  Same goes if you have to CFI's giving each other dual for a few hundred hours.  It has to pass the "smell test".

There are ways to split time and build hours without getting greedy like these guys did.  Ultimately, they lied and that's what got them.

In the pantheon of crimes, this doesn't really register on my care-o-meter. I can point to a dozen 134 and 1/2 operators in Florida, alone.

This is a low hanging fruit bust, not the legitimate bust of a dangerous operation.

But, this is the FAA at work. Busting up a dodgy 135 operator is work. Going nuclear on two scrubs is an easy day.

Truer words have never been spoken

No joke there man......

They would have probably got away with all of it, but they had an accident and gave their paperwork up.  Those FAA guys in that part of the world are probably pretty lonely and saw the opportunity to get one in the win column so they could apply for a transfer.  In any case, this was back in 1993......I forget what they were harping on back them.  Was airspace and runway incursions for a while, maybe it was times back then.

And repeated again....

This is why I never bring my logbook when I go flying, because as I understand it, if they ask for it and you have it with/on you, then you must produce it.

"Sorry Mr FAA, I don't have it with me" then I call my AOPA attorney on the drive home. :-)

I agree with the aopa lawyer bit, at the same time I have nothing to hide as nothing in my logbook is falsified.

I would assume nothing.

We all know the FAA Enforcement Branch's "Everyone is guilty of something" mentality.

Exactly. I of course have nothing to hide, but that doesn't mean I'm going to go showing it to every Fed I can find. I'd also be calling the attorney for legal counsel on the whole thing, not just the logbook issue.

Interesting.   I've never once logged hours while sitting on deck.  In fact, the USMC drills it into every helo pilot that you can't log hours until your skids break the deck.  So you might wanna slow your roll on that train of thought.

The FAA regs do provide some usable guidance here...basically they mention the "intent to fly," meaning that once you block out with the intent to fly, your clock starts. Honestly, its a standard I can accept, and with helos, I can see validity at the point of engine start up being the function block out time, with an off being the time you actually start flying.

You do not operate in accordance with , nor are you familiar with, AR 95-1.

AR 95-1 para 2–7. Computation of flying time
Flying time starts when an airplane begins to move forward on the takeoff roll or when a helicopter lifts off the
ground. Flying time ends when the aircraft has landed and the engines are stopped or the flying crew changes.



Did you really think I don't know what I'm talking about?

From the civilian side, you can only log helicopter time from when the skids lift until the set down (moves under its own power.)  Doesn't matter if you land on a scene and keep it running--you can't log that.  Is it true that in the military you can?

Take off from the airport, fly 30 min to scene
Land at scene and keep it running for 30 min
Fly back to airport 30 min & shutdown
Log 1.5 hrs?

Civilian side you would log 1.0  hrs.

Unit flying hour programs and all scheduled maintenance is based on integrated logged standardized flight hours logged that way.  I listed the applicable reg above.

So your MX is based off that too??  Interesting.

On the civilian side most a/c are certified with a "Collective Hobbs" so the only time that goes toward MX is the time when the collective is up.  It's kind of funny when we do an hour of touchdowns, it's 1.0 on the flight time and .6 toward the MX.  The only one I know that wasn't certified for this was the R22--if you wired the oil pressue Hobbs through the collective, you had to multiply the time by 1.2 or something for all the MX times.

Yes.  The Army and civil aviation are two completely different worlds with different needs, different procedures and rules.

The Army only has one "kind" of flight time as defined by AR 95-1.  That time is logged IAW AR 95-1 and is the official time for aircraft maintenance and flying hour program budgeting.  That is the primary purpose of the Army logging flight time at all: scheduled maintenance and budgeting.  

Having a record of flight time for aircrew training program and AR 95-1 currency requirements is a secondary purpose.  The official record and documentation of individual flying hours for Army aviators is the annual DA 759 closeout.  

Comparing the two worlds is apples and oranges.  Always has been and always will be. But everyone will always try and do it and very few people know what they're talking about in both worlds.

For the record, I'm no expert on civil operations and procedures.  I just have a working knowledge and understand what I don't know.

Many military aviatiors keep civilian log books that reflect FAA legal hours.

Sounds great.   I hope they actually do.

Army fixed wing time logged in accordance with AR 95-1 will come up short of fixed wing time logged IAW the definition of flight time in FAR 1.1 under the same conditions.

Army rotary wing time logged in accordance with AR 95-1 will typically exceed rotary wing time logged IAW the definition of flight time in FAR 1.1 under the same conditions.  It will often GREATLY exceed it.  Same with Night time and NVG time.


About the only "adjustments" that an ARMY HELICOPTER PILOT could reasonably make to the time he logged under AR 95-1 in his personal logbook would be PIC time.

A inexperienced Army helicopter pilot could potentially log much more of his flight time as PIC time in his logbook when he could NOT log it IAW AR 95-1

If 23 years old, it's 750

§61.160   Aeronautical experience—airplane category restricted privileges.
(a) Except for a person who has been removed from flying status for lack of proficiency or because of a disciplinary action involving aircraft operations, a U.S. military pilot or former U.S. military pilot may apply for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an airline transport pilot certificate concurrently with an airplane type rating with a minimum of 750 hours of total time as a pilot if the pilot presents:

(1) An official Form DD-214 (Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty) indicating that the person was honorably discharged from the U.S. Armed Forces or an official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the pilot is currently serving in the U.S. Armed Forces; and

(2) An official U.S. Armed Forces record that shows the person graduated from a U.S. Armed Forces undergraduate pilot training school and received a rating qualification as a military pilot.