I'm talking something along the lines of a 172 that's IFR certified. Comparing the cost of taking out a loan for just training and having a card to show for it versus buying one and having something to stay current in/bore holes in the sky with that I can always sell and recoup costs if I have to, it looks like I *may* just come out ahead buying something older with a low-mid time engine that's been taken care of.

I know this has probably been beaten to death and there are a lot of variables, but for those of you that own, what has your experience been as far as MX, storage, insurance, etc, been?

Storage is going to differ greatly depending on location, all you can do it call around.

insurance depends on experience.   Call and get quotes.

MX is highly variable, but a good rule of thumb is (minimum) mx costs will equal your fuel costs.  

That doesn't cover the unexpected things like SB's, AD's, Corrosion, and unforeseen engine, avionics, and other major replacements and repairs.

Even with a small recip, if you can't laugh off a $10,000 bill, you probably shouldn't do it.

If it flies, floats or fucks, Rent It.  

I just re-read your post, you are talking about taking out a loan for training?      Vs. buying a plane?     I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly, but If you are that tight on cash,  borrowing for flight training is kinda iffy.  Buying a plane would be unwise.

Let's say you bought a older 172 and your note is $600 a month. You'll probably spend another $600 a month on insurance, hangar, etc. Then you start the engine and watch the money flow.
Do some research and get quotes for everything, tiedown/hangar, insurance, maintenance (annual and how much to save per flight hr for various high $$ replacement parts, engine etc). Then count on spending more. If you have enough, buy and go have a good time.
I have a Cessna 195 and a cub coupe project.
My wife told me "You can't justify it just go get an airplane".
She then told me I could have what ever I wanted as long as it had a tailwheel and a round engine.......and by the way it needs to be a 195, you can pick the color.
So that's what I have.

Insurance depends upon your hours and time in type.  I bought my Sundowner as a student pilot about 15 years ago.  Insurance has gone down every year.

You can leave your aircraft outside.  I did, for a few years.  Once you clean a bird's nest out of the end of your fuselage, you'll get on the hangar list.  Weather takes a toll on your instruments, plexiglas and interior.  Hangars take a toll on your wallet.

Like anything else, the rest of it depends.  My record low annual was about $3.00 total.  I had to replace a little section of Tygon tubing.  Find a mechanic you will let you help do the annual.  Open it up, take all the panels off, change the oil.  Join a type club -- they are a wealth of information.  Some plane parts are made of unobtainium, but there is usually a way around the insanity.  No manufacturer is crazier about part prices than Beech, but things usually work out.  Get a good airframe -- the Sundowner has only one AD on the airframe, and that's a 15 sec visual inspection of stabilator attach bracket rivets.

If you are willing to get greasy, turn wrenches *and* have a great working relationship with your A&P/IA, it can be very reasonable.  Also, it depends on where your live -- what your FSDO is.  Some are realistic, non-hassling and easy to get along with.  Others are staffed with complete assholes, and God forbid you ever have an issue with them.

I would do it again in an instant.

Anything I do at this point is iffy. Young guy just starting out, not like I have any other options besides borrowing someone else's money. Ain't getting fucked by the long, hard dick of real life grand?

I'd have some help with MX issues money wise, but beyond that I'd be trying to take it up every day possible. Not just for hour requirements, but for fun. I don't particularly care if it manages to eat my entire fun budget and then some as my mandatory expenses are low.

And if I have a plane, I can probably whore myself out to someone else like me and teach them how to fly for basically gas and MX costs once I get my CFI.

I know it's a rich man's game. I know it's all gambling against the fiscal odds, but I want to see if I can beat them. It's not like I have much choice in this wonderful, one-sided world we live in nowadays. Damn near brings me to tears any time someone brings up how they were able to rent a 172 and instructor for $25/hr wet not even 20 years ago.

And that is exactly what stopped me from getting my own plane.....

 

Our hangar is 325/month, insurance is about $600 a year on our 172.  Both named pilots have 5000+ hours so I'm sure it would be more for less experience.  Jepp subscription is $350 a year.  Fuel is about $45 an hour.  I do as much maintenance as I can legally do, and do owner-assisted annuals, so our mx costs are pretty low.  

I figure $100/hour minimum for it.  Of course the year we only flew it 5 hours, it was more like $1000/hour

If you have to justify it, don't buy.  Most days I'm glad to own it, but there are times I wish we didn't have the damn thing.

You can dry your eyes.  That didn't happen.   I did all my training from '90 to '92 and I was a CFI until 96.    CFI rates were ~$12 - $25 per hour.     Our wet rate was $45 for a 152, $60 for a 172.  (This was in NJ, so rural areas were a little lower, but not by much.).    We charged $20 for Instructor time, but only got paid $10

It's probably cheaper now, in real dollar terms, especially considering how much you can learn on line and with sims.

I got paid around $10,000 per year until I made it to the regionals and got $20,000 then $40,000 by '98, $80,000 by 2002.

Anyway, It's always been a rich man's game, but lots of us poor boys have succeeded as well.

You have to have Motivation, Persistence, Aptitude, and good networking skills.       Oh, and not die.  (Easier in theory, than in practice)

Don't worry about buying an airplane.   That's a rich kid option, but it's not open to you.   Get a job at the airport pumping gas or whatever.   Get to know the owners.   start your own aircraft washing business.  It's hard work and dirty, but that's where the motivation comes in.   If you can get some Jet and Turboprop customers, it's good money.  I used to pay ~$1200 for a guy to clean my jet and $800 for the kingair.     A lot of owners will let you fly with them, and some of them can be very good contacts.   If there are King Air operators on the field, offer to wash their airplanes for right seat time.    A lot of pilots are happy to help out someone like you.  The key is finding them.  

The main thing right now, is get your tickets quick and without distraction.    The door is wide open now, but it can slam shut with a quickness.

Another option, is to marry a rich girl, or one with a good job.  A lot of pilots make it that way.  .      

Good luck.  Keep us posted.  

I did my flight training by renting 172's, and then I joined a club.  I sure wish I'd joined the club first, because it would have saved me a bunch.  The club I was in has five very nice planes between about 100 people, of which maybe half actually flew, so they were readily available most of the time.  The 172's now rent for about $115 wet, and I believe instructors get around 30 an hour.  The rental was based on tach time, which actually saves you 15-20%.  The clock on the tach only runs as fast as the engine, so taxi time is dirt cheap.  Dues are probably $60/month now, and cover insurance and other fixed costs.  If you want to work up to an instrument rating, that is the cheapest way to go, short of joining the military.

It was my initial intention to get my instrument rating, but once I really started flying on a regular basis, and got to know a lot of people that did that type of flying, I realized that it was not what I really wanted.  I was checked out in several types of planes with the club, and realized that I was using quite a bit of my flying budget to meet the club's currency requirements for each type.  The same would hold true maintaining an instrument rating, and frankly, I don't want to fly in bad weather anyway.  I just want to fly around and have fun.

My point is that although you may have definite goals going in, you may find that they change along the way.  Most people will tell you that getting an instrument rating is a natural step to take after you get your certificate, but it's not for everyone.  Instrument flying is a completely different thing than the kind of flying that I like to do, and with the plane that I have, I can afford to fly whenever I want.  My advice is to hold off on buying until you at least have your PPL.  Training in your own plane really isn't going to save you that much money in the grand scheme of things, and in the mean time, you can become certain of your goals, and educate yourself on ownership.

By far, the cheapest, and best place to learn to fly around where I live, starts you off in a Cub or a Champ, and teaches fundamental, seat-of -your-pants flying before you move on to 152/172's.  See it you can find some place like that near you.

QFT. If you don't have the cash set aside to replace the engine before you ever crank it the first time, I'd recommend against owning one completely. Don't get me wrong, there are few things as freeing as knowing you have an airplane, and the grin from being able to go flying on your schedule day or night is fantastic, but expensive things WILL break on your airplane, and if you're lucky only infrequently and when you're in gliding range of your home airport

Get a partner.  makes any plane much more affordable.

I disagree that its a "rich mans game" - more about priorities and what you're getting in to.  You can get into something flyable for less than $20k - old, ugly most likely, old avionics, but completely airworthy and safe.  I build time in a 1968 C150 that cost around $18k I think.  Grew up around airplanes and dads an A&P so I do a lot of work myself.  Rural airports are cheaper for tie downs or hangar, and no one gives you shit about doing a lot of your own work.  Obviously an A&P for annuals and to look over your shoulder.  As far as being able to replace an engine before you buy, that seems a bit crazy.  I've owned for 12 or 13 years now - 150, 172, 182, looking at 206s now - and I have never had $25k sitting in the bank waiting to overhaul/replace an engine.  and never needed it.  Yes we eventually will and we know it.  Catastrophic engine failures are pretty damn rare.  Having to replace a jug on occasion, meh, happens.  Only once for me so far.

Is that your DeHavilland?

I wish, but no. It was the jump plane at my old dropzone. It'd take 8 people to 9500' in about 25 minutes, and wake up everyone in a 10 mile radius for the first load of the day

If your engine does crap out and you don't have the funds to at least major it, you've just limited your potential market of buyers considerably, and it'll lose quite a bit of value.

I was in your position not long ago.

What I did was buy a light sport plane with a Rotax 503. I paid 9,500 for it, but about 2,500 in upgrades, flew it for ~115 hours and sold it for 12,000. Fuel burn was about 4 GA/HR, and with the oil I think it came out to about 28/HR to fly it. Rent on the Hangar was (is) 250/mth. The annual was 300 bucks (actually a conditional based on it being EAB). While I don't recommend a 2 stroke, I do know people that love them. I did not carry insurance.

I then upgraded to a 7ECA Citabria because I wanted to do acro and that meant learning to fly a tail wheel. I paid around 40K for the 7ECA. Annuals have been about 700-1000K a year. Insurance is around 600-700/year.

I now also own a Pitts S1S. Insurance is 1200/year, the last annual was 2400.

My suggestion is to find a guy that is looking for someone to buy into his plane, or find a club.

If you are not going to do that, get a metal plane so you can keep it outside... You really should hangar them, but if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. Just realize that it will damage the aircraft faster than having it in a hangar. Also look for airplanes that are not 'popular'. For example, a buddy just sold a Cherokee 180 for about 28K. It was IFR and in pretty good shape. If it had been a Cessna, it would of cost a few grand more to buy. Just like a Cub will cost more than a Champ.

If you are not going to fly 100ish hours a year... It is less expensive to rent most of the time.

If you do not yet have your license, might be better to just get that first then buy a plane to build time.

I think you need to find a new A&P

Yeah..... ok 700-1000$ a year.

Or I use real gold paint.

I would advise you to own. Flying becomes very cheap once your fixed costs are sunk and it encourages you to fly more. Also, I would recommend a vintage Mooney, like an E or F model, as they can be had for less than comparably equipped 172s (why? I don't know) and you'll want to start traveling. Fuel burn is comparable to a 172, but your mileage is a lot better because you're faster. See if you can figure out a way to pay cash.

E   X   P   E   R   I   M   E   N   T   A   L

I build my own and do all of my own maintenance.  I'm working on my third and don't know where it will fit in the hangar but I'll find a way. It's not for everyone but it's one way that the average Joe can own an aircraft.

Please. You are trying to talk someone into a complex aircraft that doesn't even have a rating yet? That's nuts and that's how people get killed. On that same note, fuel burn may be comparable, but now you're getting into things like retract gear that's another maint issue as well as insurance issue. Your cost per hour is going to be higher than a 172. He can't even afford the 172, much less a mooney.

To each his own I say, but no way in hell would I own one of those. I especially wouldn't own it if I built it. lol

While a nice, complex aircraft like that is on the agenda somewhere way in the future, I know my limits. Having to fuck around with mixture, gear, prop pitch, throttle, flaps, etc all by myself would cause helmet fire at my level of experience.

Not to mention how much I'd assume insurance would cost. I can hear the conversation now...

"Nice complex aircraft sir, how many hours do you have?" "Uh, 4? " "4 in type? Okay. How many total?" "Uh... not in type. Total. " ".... Well okay, we'll insure you. Bend over. If you want lube, that's an extra $100/mo. Pleasure doing business with you sir!"

When you do get to the point of researching actual numbers, make sure you call Falcon Insurance.  They gave me the best deal, by far.

Shame, an RV6, 7 or 8 is better, IMO, by FAR to any production single.

Possibly true, but it's probably better to learn how to fly one before you try to build one.  I know the kit instructions tell you how, but it would help to also know "why".

You sound like a perfect candidate for a small "club" (or big partnership depending on how you look at it)

Allows you to have nicer stuff and not worry about big bills because the cost is defrayed.  Our club has about 10 people for one airplane and it's not at all crowded - hell there are only about 4 super active pilots anyway.  

A $3,000 maintenance bill is now $300.  Makes the whole thing easier to swallow.

tagged for lots of good info...the dream lives...or nightmare

Flying is the kind of nightmare you want to be able to live day in and day out....

...and then the bill comes due....

...and you still don't give a fuck, go borrow some more money!

You need to learn a good marketable skill before you start wasting money flying.

Welding, Instrumentation, NDE, something good that will land you a job when you need it.

I recently bought an airplane after about a year of talking to people and searching all over the country for a great deal. I ended up going with a Cherokee 140. Not fast and not fancy but hard to beat the cost to usefulness ratio on them. I looked at the cessnas and test flew a few of them but for the money... just couldn't find a good 172 in my budget. A Cessna 150 can be had cheap but the limited weight capacity ruled that out. Good Cherokee 140s can be had for 20-25k and will have an honest capacity of 800lbs or so (mine is 829lbs). After fuel, you will have a legit 3 adult capacity or 2 adults and 2 kids.Beware of anything under 20k as I tried a couple and they were priced lower for a reason...

My Cherokee averages about 7-8gph just flying around so at 5 bucks a gallon... looking at $35-40/hr
My particular plane only burns a guart of oil every 25 hours so no biggie there.
insurance for me was $600/yr as a student pilot.
tie down cost me $75/month (t-hanger runs $150/month and I am on waiting list)
In the few months I;ve owned the plane... no big maintenance items yet but I did spend 4 hours at $50/hr on a detailed pre-buy

My opinion is buy or rent is about a wash if you are doing to fly couple times a month. If you fly weekly... owning starts to look better

The one other variable for this is the joy of being able to go to your very own airplane and jump in and fly it... to me, that made the decision for me.


Can't speak for all but for me... owning just won out!

It's something you ought to do.  I just got the insurance quote- $625.00.  I paid $400 to the A&P for my annual this year, primarily because it was his first on the aircraft.  He had to spend a lot of time going over the logs.  Next year should be less.  Hangar is $170 per month, no electricity.  If you want juice, you have to bring your own generator, and they don't like you keeping it in the hangar.  Gas is $5.75 a gallon self-serve.  I bought oil cooler hoses for $437.00 and plan to do an oil change, which will be another $75.00.  I paid $250 for an IFR cert which is good for 2 years. My transponder was squirrely, and that set me back about $400.  I plan to do interior work, but that's entirely optional.

The key is to have a pre-buy with a good A&P who is familiar with the type of AC you are buying.  There are good and bad aspects of combining an annual with a pre-buy. If the seller is paying, I think it's okay as long as you are using your own IA, the guy who will have to sign off on it next year.  Problems arise when a "tight" IA follows up on a plane annualed by a "loose" IA.  The age of the GA fleet is such that there are cracks and dents in non-structural parts that don't take away one bit from safety of flight.  Should they be fixed?  Only in a perfect world.  But if you get stuck with a "tight" A&P/IA who wants to replace every piece of plastic or every screw with a tinge of surface rust, it will add thousands.

Had to add one more important plus of aircraft ownership... in case of SHTF, you have a means to get out of dodge when all traditional means of egress are too dangerous. We have very remote land out in west texas. I know of a little airport very close to our land so in the unlikely event of a genuine SHTF... I can get out of dodge and to my Bug Out Location quickly and efficiently. Wife, me, dog and plenty of about 200lbs or stuff can bug out pretty slick.

OK, I know it is a real stretch but hey... if that helps make the wife happy... feel free to use it. Now for a realistic perk... you can do what I did...
I drew a 350 mile circle out from my home airport. That is the nonstop day trip range.
I drew a 700 mile circle out from my home airport That is the 1-stop weekend trip range.

For me it's not borrowing the money, I could pay cash for what I need/want and I'm not a wealthy guy by any stretch. Finding an instructor and a plane when I'm available will be my biggest problem.

What part of VA?  PM me if you want.

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