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 Sig_Prude 
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Joined: Apr 2008  PA, USA
 Posts: 1611 Feedback: 100% (8) |
Posted: 8/8/2012 12:22:15 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 12:29:38 PM by Sig_Prude]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT |
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Posted: 8/8/2012 1:08:12 PM
First to call Dupe.
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Posted: 8/8/2012 1:36:33 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 3:50:40 PM by a555]
It's a new one to me. The pilot did a great job flying into the trees. A lot of people will say he had no choice, but the choice was, after they'd gotten that far into the flight, to either fly it into the trees, or to stall it into the trees. I've seen a number of documented plane crashes where planes flew into the trees and all occupants survived. From watching this video, something that I didn't expect, he came very close to hitting the trees head-on and the propellor looked like it took to those treetops like a weed-eater protecting the fuselage. I've read that there's a single-engine advantage to protection against birdstrikes, this video looks to show first-hand that a single engine can also protect you against trees as well. Look at the 6:00 minute mark, it looks like the plane is hitting the trees head on and the trees are exploding as he flies into them.
ETA: I, for one, am A-OK with dupes from GD ending up here. I prefer the commentary in this subforum without the GD static. |
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Posted: 8/8/2012 2:27:41 PM
Originally Posted By Him:
First to call Dupe. In all seriousness, shit like this should be considered a banable offense. |
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Posted: 8/8/2012 2:51:38 PM
Originally Posted By Sig_Prude:
Originally Posted By Him:
First to call Dupe. In all seriousness, shit like this should be considered a banable offense. Good luck, but if it really, really pisses you off, I probably won't do it again, especially if you hold your breath until your face turns purple. |
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Posted: 8/8/2012 4:06:56 PM
Looks like he should have made two trips.
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M82Assault
Unapologetic Glockaholic.
Team Member
Joined: Aug 2009 GA, USA
Posts: 2373 Feedback: 100% (2) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 4:51:29 PM
Originally Posted By Him:
Originally Posted By Sig_Prude:
Originally Posted By Him:
First to call Dupe. In all seriousness, shit like this should be considered a banable offense. Good luck, but if it really, really pisses you off, I probably won't do it again, especially if you hold your breath until your face turns purple. Come on guys, this is the Aviation forum, not GD... 
Let's not make this the second lock in the Aviation forum's history. I'd like to hear some pilot's opinions on what went wrong. |
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Posted: 8/8/2012 5:07:57 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 5:21:43 PM by Mazawakhan]
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Originally Posted By Him:
Originally Posted By Sig_Prude:
Originally Posted By Him:
First to call Dupe. In all seriousness, shit like this should be considered a banable offense. Good luck, but if it really, really pisses you off, I probably won't do it again, especially if you hold your breath until your face turns purple. Come on guys, this is the Aviation forum, not GD...
Let's not make this the second lock in the Aviation forum's history. I'd like to hear some pilot's opinions on what went wrong. This was a density altitude accident. I looked at the weather from that day and from where he took off at the DA was right at 9000ft. With that much weight on board that plane was not going to climb. Watch his takeoff roll! I think it took over a minute for him to get airborne. I would expect a Stinson fully loaded to get off the ground in less than a thousand feet at sea level. That should have been his first clue to abort the takeoff but he elected to continue. I get off the ground in a fully loaded Lear 31 in less time than what he did. |
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CSM
The Original Angsty Owl
Team Member
Joined: Jun 2004 CO, USA
Posts: 12083 Feedback: 100% (7) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 5:16:52 PM
Thought...
When he was committed to the trees, why not start inching out flaps before you hit to try to 1) gain a little more time, and 2) hit slower? |
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Posted: 8/8/2012 5:19:19 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 5:28:18 PM by Mazawakhan]
Originally Posted By CSM:
Thought... When he was committed to the trees, why not start inching out flaps before you hit to try to 1) gain a little more time, and 2) hit slower? Im thinking he didnt have time to think about flaps. Second the plane was on the backside of the power curve, more drag being produced than thrust, if he put in more drag (flaps) the plane would have come down even faster. |
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BillofRights
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jul 2001 USA
Posts: 22097 Feedback: 100% (10) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 5:19:54 PM
Originally Posted By M82Assault Come on guys, this is the Aviation forum, not GD... Let's not make this the second lock in the Aviation forum's history. I'd like to hear some pilot's opinions on what went wrong. it's not an opinion, and it's not controversial at all. First, he should not have attempted the takeoff. Second, he should have aborted when the takeoff roll was two or three times longer than normal, third, he shouldn't have kept flying toward rising terrain. |
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BillofRights
Member
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Joined: Jul 2001 USA
Posts: 22098 Feedback: 100% (10) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 5:26:48 PM
Originally Posted By CSM: Thought... When he was committed to the trees, why not start inching out flaps before you hit to try to 1) gain a little more time, and 2) hit slower? Well, the emphasis needs to be on not hitting trees in the first place. When you get to the point where he was, it's 90% luck anyway. There is absolutely no way to quantify that dropping flaps will ensure your survival. No, putting in flaps isn't going to bail you out. He hit the trees really well. It's not easy to do that where your pax can walk away from it. |
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Posted: 8/8/2012 5:30:25 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 5:32:36 PM by Him]
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Originally Posted By Him:
Originally Posted By Sig_Prude:
Originally Posted By Him:
First to call Dupe. In all seriousness, shit like this should be considered a banable offense. Good luck, but if it really, really pisses you off, I probably won't do it again, especially if you hold your breath until your face turns purple. Come on guys, this is the Aviation forum, not GD...
Let's not make this the second lock in the Aviation forum's history. I'd like to hear some pilot's opinions on what went wrong. My mistake, I guess I did not notice which forum it was. I apologize, and hope the thread carries on without any additional "distractions." There won't be any more from me, I will be reading the responses. I have a friend who ended up hanging upside down in a tree, but I don't know his details. |
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Posted: 8/8/2012 6:40:17 PM
The thing that frustrated me watching this video is not only that he shouldn't have taken off, but once he did, and he could see that he wasn't going to get any sort of climb rate, he was presented with a few choices, and he made the wrong choice.
Between where he took off and where he hit the trees, there was a large area where he could have put the aircraft down with little to no damage. It may not have been ideal, it may have made him the laughing stock at the local airport to make a precautionary landing that close to the field, but that's better than hitting the trees.
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BillofRights
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jul 2001 USA
Posts: 22100 Feedback: 100% (10) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 8:26:27 PM
Originally Posted By itgoesboom: The thing that frustrated me watching this video is not only that he shouldn't have taken off, but once he did, and he could see that he wasn't going to get any sort of climb rate, he was presented with a few choices, and he made the wrong choice. Between where he took off and where he hit the trees, there was a large area where he could have put the aircraft down with little to no damage. It may not have been ideal, it may have made him the laughing stock at the local airport to make a precautionary landing that close to the field, but that's better than hitting the trees.
There's a very common phenomenon in aviation, present in most accidents. Fixation. Abandoning the plan is the hardest thing to do. Aborting the takeoff, going around, turning around in the face of bad weather. It's easy to see in hindsight, but difficult to make the call in real time. |
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flaperon
EXPERIMENTAL
Team Member
Joined: Mar 2005 GA, USA
Posts: 866 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/8/2012 9:50:01 PM
Amen, brother!
I fly bizjets but some of the hardest decisions I make in the air happen while flying VFR in my light single with regards to weather and performance. Of course, the reason I get paid so much is that if I make the wrong decision in the jet more assets are at stake... 
Originally Posted By BillofRights:
Originally Posted By itgoesboom:
The thing that frustrated me watching this video is not only that he shouldn't have taken off, but once he did, and he could see that he wasn't going to get any sort of climb rate, he was presented with a few choices, and he made the wrong choice. Between where he took off and where he hit the trees, there was a large area where he could have put the aircraft down with little to no damage. It may not have been ideal, it may have made him the laughing stock at the local airport to make a precautionary landing that close to the field, but that's better than hitting the trees. There's a very common phenomenon in aviation, present in most accidents. Fixation. Abandoning the plan is the hardest thing to do. Aborting the takeoff, going around, turning around in the face of bad weather. It's easy to see in hindsight, but difficult to make the call in real time. |
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Posted: 8/8/2012 9:54:53 PM
Originally Posted By flaperon:
Amen, brother! I fly bizjets but some of the hardest decisions I make in the air happen while flying VFR in my light single with regards to weather and performance. Of course, the reason I get paid so much is that if I make the wrong decision in the jet more assets are at stake...
Originally Posted By BillofRights:
Originally Posted By itgoesboom:
The thing that frustrated me watching this video is not only that he shouldn't have taken off, but once he did, and he could see that he wasn't going to get any sort of climb rate, he was presented with a few choices, and he made the wrong choice. Between where he took off and where he hit the trees, there was a large area where he could have put the aircraft down with little to no damage. It may not have been ideal, it may have made him the laughing stock at the local airport to make a precautionary landing that close to the field, but that's better than hitting the trees. There's a very common phenomenon in aviation, present in most accidents. Fixation. Abandoning the plan is the hardest thing to do. Aborting the takeoff, going around, turning around in the face of bad weather. It's easy to see in hindsight, but difficult to make the call in real time. Wait...you're a pilot and you get paid a lot? How does THAT work? LOL 
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Posted: 8/8/2012 10:46:24 PM
Should have aborted on the T/O roll.
Should have put it down in those couple miles of flat terrain. ...basically, he a good option off the bat, and a pretty good one after that, but kept going until all that was left was seeing how good a weed-eater the prop was.  |
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Posted: 8/9/2012 7:16:14 AM
If your DA exceeds your runway length - time to get out the books.
70% takeoff speed by 50% runway length - if you don't have it abort. Things will not get better down the road. Remember that DA is simply the altitude that the airplane "thinks" it's at. Not just some rote definition that you need to memorize for a test. Nice Rosen visors btw... |
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Posted: 8/9/2012 10:39:14 PM
At that length of TO roll he should have shut down at the 50% rule. Overloaded aircraft, DA, and poor decisions. Lucky they all lived but the poor aircraft is toast. It was like a bad weedwhacker commercial though.
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Posted: 8/9/2012 11:01:48 PM
I suppose the pilot thought after he lifted off that he could slowly gain airspeed and altitude over the relatively flat terrain. By the time he realized that wasn't going to work, he basically had no options. You certainly don't have to be at a 5000 ft. elevation strip to experience the negative effects of density altitude. I've seen it impact aircraft here at 200 asl on a humid 95 degree day.
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Posted: 8/9/2012 11:59:13 PM
Originally Posted By BillofRights: Originally Posted By itgoesboom: The thing that frustrated me watching this video is not only that he shouldn't have taken off, but once he did, and he could see that he wasn't going to get any sort of climb rate, he was presented with a few choices, and he made the wrong choice. Between where he took off and where he hit the trees, there was a large area where he could have put the aircraft down with little to no damage. It may not have been ideal, it may have made him the laughing stock at the local airport to make a precautionary landing that close to the field, but that's better than hitting the trees.
There's a very common phenomenon in aviation, present in most accidents. Fixation. Abandoning the plan is the hardest thing to do. Aborting the takeoff, going around, turning around in the face of bad weather. It's easy to see in hindsight, but difficult to make the call in real time. Yup. Always interesting to read accident reports and talk to pilots who have been in accidents. I've known too many friends who decided too late to do something that they should have done early. I fly up to the DA limit of my aircraft just about every time that I fly during the spring or summer. You have to know your aircraft, know your options, know your limits, and know when to say "no".
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Posted: 8/10/2012 12:19:06 AM
He was hoping for a better rate of climb after he could lower the nose & pick up some more airspeed; but ground effect was all he had going.
The trees are closer than the wide angle lens shows in the video, and he had plenty of time to set it back down. In hoping for a better rate of climb in another minute or so, he could have easily killed everyone in that crash. They were also very lucky there was no fire. |
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Posted: 8/10/2012 12:31:08 AM
Originally Posted By radioman12: He was hoping for a better rate of climb after he could lower the nose & pick up some more airspeed; but ground effect was all he had going. The trees are closer than the wide angle lens shows in the video, and he had plenty of time to set it back down. In hoping for a better rate of climb in another minute or so, he could have easily killed everyone in that crash. They were also very lucky there was no fire. Too bad that "hope" isn't one of the 4-forces.
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Posted: 8/12/2012 10:28:37 AM
Originally Posted By itgoesboom: Originally Posted By radioman12: He was hoping for a better rate of climb after he could lower the nose & pick up some more airspeed; but ground effect was all he had going. The trees are closer than the wide angle lens shows in the video, and he had plenty of time to set it back down. In hoping for a better rate of climb in another minute or so, he could have easily killed everyone in that crash. They were also very lucky there was no fire. Too bad that "hope" isn't one of the 4-forces.
That needs to be placarded in every cockpit. I saw the video on the news which just showed the crash. After watching the takeoff roll all I can say is wow. |
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sigp226
No_Limit_Cracka
Team Member
Joined: Jun 2006  LBY
 
Posts: 11299 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/12/2012 4:23:52 PM
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Originally Posted By Him:
Originally Posted By Sig_Prude:
Originally Posted By Him:
First to call Dupe. In all seriousness, shit like this should be considered a banable offense. Good luck, but if it really, really pisses you off, I probably won't do it again, especially if you hold your breath until your face turns purple. Come on guys, this is the Aviation forum, not GD...
Let's not make this the second lock in the Aviation forum's history. I'd like to hear some pilot's opinions on what went wrong. What went wrong at my guess is he took off in the morning , loaded close to the limit, and landed there. I expect a front passed because if he was mushy coming in, he should have known to wait it out before departing. |
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ISR
