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Posted: 5/17/2017 3:11:19 PM EDT
i need to replace some of the exposed water lines in my basement due to pinhole leaks and corrosion issues, the plumbing in the walls and finished sections are new from when they did a remodel 2 years ago.

Should i stay with copper pipes or go with PEX in the exposed sections, also how easy is it to put in ball/shutoff valves on the PEX lines? or is my best bet to use a manifold
i would need at least 7 hot outlets and 9 cold outlets

If i go with PEX what is the best way to mount them to the joist as well


thanks
Link Posted: 5/17/2017 5:03:41 PM EDT
[#1]
Pex is cheaper, faster, and requires less tooling to install than copper. I haven't heard of any failures of Pex plumbing. It's easy. Cutter and crimper.



I like plumbing with copper, personally. Zen for me, except in awful areas.

Pex is nice in awful areas to plumb. I wouldn't regret Pex in my house.  

They make Pex shut off valves and clamps to hold piping to studs. They make it easy.

I have never used a manifold before. I'm looking forward to someone's word with experience.
Link Posted: 5/17/2017 5:28:57 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
Pex is cheaper, faster, and requires less tooling to install than copper. I haven't heard of any failures of Pex plumbing. It's easy. Cutter and crimper.



I like plumbing with copper, personally. Zen for me, except in awful areas.

Pex is nice in awful areas to plumb. I wouldn't regret Pex in my house.  

They make Pex shut off valves and clamps to hold piping to studs. They make it easy.

I have never used a manifold before. I'm looking forward to someone's word with experience.
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I like copper too, this stuff is just old and i am sick of having shutoff valves all over the basement.
some of the manifolds i have looked at have built in valves on them others are built up enough where you can put a ball valve on the manifold outlet connections

i want the stuff to last and make it easier so if i tell the wife or kid to shutoff a water line they just have to go to one place and turn it off.

Like i said, in the pain in the ass places its all new copper thank god, just the exposed lines off the main need to be replaced and want a cleaner and longer lasting product
besides the manifold there would only be around 15 or so fittings total and thats a hell of a lot better then all the elbows and T's and other joints i would need with copper
Link Posted: 5/17/2017 8:11:46 PM EDT
[#3]
I use to say that plastic is cheaper but copper is proper until a family friend almost died from copper poisoning when the acidy in her developments water supply leached her pipes making her sick. To this day she is still not right and it has been close to 10 years.
Link Posted: 5/17/2017 8:17:44 PM EDT
[#4]
When I remodeled a bathroom, I asked a number of local plumbers about pex vs. copper.  Without fail, all of those that did nothing but new installation said "Use pex, it's great, it's rated for 30 years, we use it all the time."  Without fail, those that had to go fix problems in peoples' houses said "Do yourself a favor, and use copper."
Link Posted: 5/17/2017 8:22:59 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
I haven't heard of any failures of Pex plumbing.
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Are you serious?  nearly everyone I know who has had failed plumbing has had pex.

I know one dude alone who has had pex fail and flood his home no fewer than three times.  All three times, it was in warranty, so pex fixed his house and the leak, but all three times pex refused to proactively replace any of the other fittings to keep it from happening again.

Even aside from the fact that pex had faulty fittings a while back, plastics just don't last forever, because the plasticizer leaches out, and the plastic becomes brittle.   That is exactly what happened to my sister-in-law, her pex manifold got brittle with age, and burst.

In most areas of the country, copper plumbing will outlast the building itself.  The only failures I have seen in my life with copper have come from improper installation (and it was noticed as soon as the water was turned on), or once when a gorilla horrendously over-torqued a threaded fitting (we're talking like 5x proper torque).

Now, some areas of the country, the water is corrosive to copper.  If you live in one of those areas... well, pex is just as good as the alternative.
Link Posted: 5/17/2017 8:32:29 PM EDT
[#6]
I had k copper in my house till lighting hit a big tree in the yard and almost every joint started leaking, put Pex in with a manabloc system and the only leaks we have had are in the short pieces of copper on the water heater
Link Posted: 5/17/2017 9:53:04 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:


Are you serious?  nearly everyone I know who has had failed plumbing has had pex.

I know one dude alone who has had pex fail and flood his home no fewer than three times.  All three times, it was in warranty, so pex fixed his house and the leak, but all three times pex refused to proactively replace any of the other fittings to keep it from happening again.

Even aside from the fact that pex had faulty fittings a while back, plastics just don't last forever, because the plasticizer leaches out, and the plastic becomes brittle.   That is exactly what happened to my sister-in-law, her pex manifold got brittle with age, and burst.

In most areas of the country, copper plumbing will outlast the building itself.  The only failures I have seen in my life with copper have come from improper installation (and it was noticed as soon as the water was turned on), or once when a gorilla horrendously over-torqued a threaded fitting (we're talking like 5x proper torque).

Now, some areas of the country, the water is corrosive to copper.  If you live in one of those areas... well, pex is just as good as the alternative.
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I think you are referring to polybutylene.  Also, "pex" didn't fix his house.  "Pex" isn't a brand.  It's a type.  Various companies make pex piping.  

I have seen ALL types of plumbing fail.  Galvanized, copper, and pex.  I have seen the least failures with Pex though.  I refuse to use Type M copper.  It's too thin.  I will only use Type L.  Many plumbers and especially homeowners use M because it's a bit cheaper.
Link Posted: 5/17/2017 10:18:27 PM EDT
[#8]
I put in CPVC to replace polybutylene in this house and 40 year old galvanized steel in a previous house.
I moved the location the well water line enters the house and made the run over to the pressure tank with pex.
I did a lot of heating runs with pex in this house.
Copper crimp rings are easy.  Use brass fittings, not plastic.

If you can home run everything to a good manifold go for it.  There are black plastic clips in either a U or talon shape that are used to secure pex to studs or joists.  Bag of 25 or 50.
If you want to keep cost and effort down just replace the section of copper that is giving you a problem.
Link Posted: 5/18/2017 1:49:19 AM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:




I think you are referring to polybutylene.  Also, "pex" didn't fix his house.  "Pex" isn't a brand.  It's a type.  Various companies make pex piping.  

I have seen ALL types of plumbing fail.  Galvanized, copper, and pex.  I have seen the least failures with Pex though.  I refuse to use Type M copper.  It's too thin.  I will only use Type L.  Many plumbers and especially homeowners use M because it's a bit cheaper.  
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This,

I made a living replacing polybutylene for quite some time, and had the same distaste for pex, HOWEVER, since using it for the last 20 years, (and the company I work for, for 15+ years prior to me) I have it throughout my house, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it.

I must add I only use the Uponer/Wirsbo tubing (pex a), I have seen pex frozen solid, bend it and you hear ice cracking, but when thawed it is fine. 2 feet away copper is burst.  

Low pH (slightly acidic) can cause copper to wear out quickly, so can high flow, greater than 4-6 feet per second. Not so with pex

I will say this, when I used to get done plumbing a house with copper (and a torch, not so much with press fittings) I looked upon it with pride, there is real craftsmanship to a well done copper job you just can't get with pex, or even pressed copper, and certainly not sharkbite fittings
Link Posted: 5/18/2017 2:32:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Copper. Type L

Do it right.
Link Posted: 5/20/2017 1:45:34 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
Copper. Type L

Do it right.
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While untempered type L is very useful to make repairs it is a little bit of overkill for most residential installs.
Link Posted: 5/20/2017 3:23:51 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:


While untempered type L is very useful to make repairs it is a little bit of overkill for most residential installs.
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Overkill is a smart idea when dealing with anything that can cause issues.....like leaking water lines. I would never use type M copper for a residential install. The cost difference is minimal compared to the potential for failure.

Contractors use that shit because it's cheap and will last long enough that they won't have to replace it at their cost when it fails.

That said, I like PEX and used it to plumb my house. I did use some copper for specific areas and it's all type L.
Link Posted: 5/21/2017 11:46:38 AM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:
Overkill is a smart idea when dealing with anything that can cause issues.....like leaking water lines. I would never use type M copper for a residential install. The cost difference is minimal compared to the potential for failure.

Contractors use that shit because it's cheap and will last long enough that they won't have to replace it at their cost when it fails.

That said, I like PEX and used it to plumb my house. I did use some copper for specific areas and it's all type L.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


While untempered type L is very useful to make repairs it is a little bit of overkill for most residential installs.
Overkill is a smart idea when dealing with anything that can cause issues.....like leaking water lines. I would never use type M copper for a residential install. The cost difference is minimal compared to the potential for failure.

Contractors use that shit because it's cheap and will last long enough that they won't have to replace it at their cost when it fails.

That said, I like PEX and used it to plumb my house. I did use some copper for specific areas and it's all type L.
The recent pinhole copper problem is traceable to the EPA lowering TDS standards and making the water aggressive towards the passivation layer that forms inside copper pipes.  

Once that layer is removed the water then corrodes the copper itsxelf. and then the copper itself.

Orthophosphates are now added to the water to form the passivation layer and limit corrosion.
Link Posted: 5/21/2017 12:26:10 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:
The recent pinhole copper problem is traceable to the EPA lowering TDS standards and making the water aggressive towards the passivation layer that forms inside copper pipes.  

Once that layer is removed the water then corrodes the copper itsxelf. and then the copper itself.

Orthophosphates are now added to the water to form the passivation layer and limit corrosion.
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View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


While untempered type L is very useful to make repairs it is a little bit of overkill for most residential installs.
Overkill is a smart idea when dealing with anything that can cause issues.....like leaking water lines. I would never use type M copper for a residential install. The cost difference is minimal compared to the potential for failure.

Contractors use that shit because it's cheap and will last long enough that they won't have to replace it at their cost when it fails.

That said, I like PEX and used it to plumb my house. I did use some copper for specific areas and it's all type L.
The recent pinhole copper problem is traceable to the EPA lowering TDS standards and making the water aggressive towards the passivation layer that forms inside copper pipes.  

Once that layer is removed the water then corrodes the copper itsxelf. and then the copper itself.

Orthophosphates are now added to the water to form the passivation layer and limit corrosion.
My water department is adding them but when the house was built (I'm the 2nd owner outside of the family that built it) the plumbing looks like spider webs and goes all over and has a mix of ball valves and gate valves.

I plan on replacing the gate valves to ball but looking at pex and the manifolds that are offered it would cut down on the plumbing mess and I could shut off the supply at the manifold.
It also makes it easier if I need the wife or someone else to quickly shut off water as they just have to go there and shut it off.

For the sinks and toilets they are still copper and have the shutoff valves on them still and that wouldn't change, just what to clean up all the plumbing from the main to each item that needs a water supply and want it to last and not have issues if the water company has to change what they put in the supply.

I have water filters in the fridge, kitchen sink and main bathroom sink and shower but that's mostly to help remove lead as the tap water taste fine.
Link Posted: 5/21/2017 7:09:39 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:


The recent pinhole copper problem is traceable to the EPA lowering TDS standards and making the water aggressive towards the passivation layer that forms inside copper pipes.  

Once that layer is removed the water then corrodes the copper itsxelf. and then the copper itself.

Orthophosphates are now added to the water to form the passivation layer and limit corrosion.
View Quote
I have seen tons of copper pinhole on wells with higher TDS levels as well though,
Link Posted: 5/23/2017 9:39:56 AM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
I have seen tons of copper pinhole on wells with higher TDS levels as well though,
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


The recent pinhole copper problem is traceable to the EPA lowering TDS standards and making the water aggressive towards the passivation layer that forms inside copper pipes.  

Once that layer is removed the water then corrodes the copper itsxelf. and then the copper itself.

Orthophosphates are now added to the water to form the passivation layer and limit corrosion.
I have seen tons of copper pinhole on wells with higher TDS levels as well though,
Ph is probably bad.

Get it under control.

The recent rash of pinholes on water systems was EPA induced.
They already control Ph very well.
Link Posted: 5/24/2017 12:17:57 AM EDT
[#17]
Nope, not pH, it was flow velocities on a recirculated hot water line.
Link Posted: 5/24/2017 3:20:40 PM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:
Nope, not pH, it was flow velocities on a recirculated hot water line.
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Flow velocity usually produces very distinctive wear patterns near fittings that can be seen with a bore scope.

Look at the pipe edges near fittings under some magnification.
Link Posted: 5/24/2017 9:04:41 PM EDT
[#19]
I jus replaced every single water line in my house with PEX, it had PolyButelene crap all over and had 2 failures before I finally replaced it all. I used the Manabloc system. With Pex, you can add valves anywhere you want to.

With the left over pex materials I had, I was able to redo a single wide trailer with all pex. Stuff is beyond easy to work with, get a good Cutter and the proper crimpers/crimps...

As far as adding the Manifold. I screwed some nice 1 x 4 across the wall and mounted the manifold. As far as mounting PEX to joist, they sell 1/2 , 3/4 & 1 " copper colored straps, they are very nice, they come with nails but I ditched those for 1" screws.

The manifold is nice, but a lil too "plastic" for my test. I may get crazy and replace it with this type....

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Copper-Manifolds-1843000

on a side note, Supplyhouse is awesome, very quick shipping and will make any errors right. UPS lost a roll of 1/2 PEX and supplyhouse sent me out another one, no charge. I was also able to send some parts back that I never used, it was a YEAR later, they just charged me restock fee (which is understandable esp after a year).
Link Posted: 5/24/2017 10:11:01 PM EDT
[#20]
We use expansion (pro) pex almost exclusively now.  (The tile you expand a collar, no crimp rings).  It has been a life saver this week.  I was able to move supply lines an few feet over by only cutting holes in the subfloor large enough to get my tool and arms in.  It's so easy you can do it blind.  
Link Posted: 5/25/2017 12:15:12 PM EDT
[#21]
I just redid a few copper lines at home during last year's reno and just sweated on some new copper because it was like less than 15ft total of new line that needed to be done (extensions, overhead shower flange, new hot/cold box in laundry)

I over-sweat the shit out of the joints...no pinhole leaks for me
Link Posted: 5/25/2017 1:19:39 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
We use expansion (pro) pex almost exclusively now.  (The tile you expand a collar, no crimp rings).  It has been a life saver this week.  I was able to move supply lines an few feet over by only cutting holes in the subfloor large enough to get my tool and arms in.  It's so easy you can do it blind.  
View Quote
I still prefer crimp (Oetiker) rings.

Relying on plastics to always maintain their elasticity just seems like a bad idea.

Crimp rings and brass fittings.

The polybutylene problem was not the tube as much as the fittings.

They became brittle in the presence of chlorine.

There is some evidence the poly also had problems though.

Best to replace the whole system.
Link Posted: 5/26/2017 9:42:57 AM EDT
[#23]
316ss is really the only option for durability. 
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