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Posted: 3/14/2017 9:00:21 AM EDT
I found out last night I can't have the dishwasher and microwave running at the same time.
The microwave is an above the range microwave/vent that plugs into an outlet above the microwave inside a cabinet. It's on the same circuit as the dishwasher and the breaker trips after about 30 seconds if both are running. Is it possible to move the microwave to a different circuit without any issues or big costs? As far as I can tell, the dishwasher and microwave are the only things on that circuit labeled "dishwasher" inside my panel. I also have some mystery circuits as well. This house was remodeled at some point. The guy I bought the house from is a retired electrician. However none of the breaker switches will cut off the living room lights (used to be a garage) unless I flip the main.. 
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Posted: 3/14/2017 9:59:20 AM EDT
[#1]
Really should not be a problem to have those two things on the same circuit. Assuming it's a 15 amp.
The washer will be the big draw there and it really shouldn't even need the full 15 itself anyway. You may want to check the breaker size and maybe replace it if it's older. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 10:01:51 AM EDT
[#2]
Must have been a lazy electrician. That microwave should be on a dedicated circuit, as you have found.
The lights on the main? Nobody is that lazy, post a pic of the inside of the panel. I'm a retired master sparky and I hate hacks. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 10:31:04 AM EDT
[#3]
Do you have attic or crawl space access to the microwave wall?
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Posted: 3/14/2017 10:55:19 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really should not be a problem to have those two things on the same circuit. Assuming it's a 15 amp. The washer will be the big draw there and it really shouldn't even need the full 15 itself anyway. You may want to check the breaker size and maybe replace it if it's older. 20 amp breaker. Built in 95 |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 10:56:11 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Must have been a lazy electrician. That microwave should be on a dedicated circuit, as you have found. The lights on the main? Nobody is that lazy, post a pic of the inside of the panel. I'm a retired master sparky and I hate hacks. I'll try to snap a pic when I get home. There's not much to look at though. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 10:56:39 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have attic or crawl space access to the microwave wall? Yes |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:03:00 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Do you have attic or crawl space access to the microwave wall? Yes Then if you can get from the panel to the space, not too bad. If you have a breaker space open in the panel, great. If not, you will have to get creative and make one. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:06:26 AM EDT
[#8]
Also to add, the microwave is rather new. I believe the house probably just had a plug in vent/filter over the range. When the kitchen was remodeled, I believe they probably added a microwave/vent combo to save counter top space.
The microwave isn't a huge deal for me, just an inconvenience. However the lights and outlet in the living room (was a garage) I have an issue with. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:08:46 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then if you can get from the panel to the space, not too bad. If you have a breaker space open in the panel, great. If not, you will have to get creative and make one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you have attic or crawl space access to the microwave wall? Yes Then if you can get from the panel to the space, not too bad. If you have a breaker space open in the panel, great. If not, you will have to get creative and make one. I have several empty breaker spaces. However getting to where the drop downs for all the cables and wire is tricky. Not a lot of space as it is next to an exterior eve on the roof. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:13:37 AM EDT
[#10]
Run dedicated circuits to both.
In this case sounds like run one to the microwave and cap the lines from the (now dedicated) dishwasher circuit. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:19:25 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have several empty breaker spaces. However getting to where the drop downs for all the cables and wire is tricky. Not a lot of space as it is next to an exterior eve on the roof. That would need some bad ass attic crawling, and a new conduit into the eave. If you do it, use at least a 1", 2" is better. This is a semi advanced move if you have never done it. Easy to screw some stuff up quick. Still hard to believe the one circuit is not on some breaker. But you have thrown all the individual breakers and never killed it? |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:46:02 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would need some bad ass attic crawling, and a new conduit into the eave. If you do it, use at least a 1", 2" is better. This is a semi advanced move if you have never done it. Easy to screw some stuff up quick. Still hard to believe the one circuit is not on some breaker. But you have thrown all the individual breakers and never killed it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have several empty breaker spaces. However getting to where the drop downs for all the cables and wire is tricky. Not a lot of space as it is next to an exterior eve on the roof. That would need some bad ass attic crawling, and a new conduit into the eave. If you do it, use at least a 1", 2" is better. This is a semi advanced move if you have never done it. Easy to screw some stuff up quick. Still hard to believe the one circuit is not on some breaker. But you have thrown all the individual breakers and never killed it? I've been replacing outlets because someone before me decided to paint the rooms....and paint over most of the outlets. I've killed every breaker and the lights where the garage used to be are still on, and the outlets are still hot. There's even a breaker labeled "garage gfci". Even that doesn't control the outlets where the garage was. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:54:32 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
20 amp breaker. Built in 95 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Really should not be a problem to have those two things on the same circuit. Assuming it's a 15 amp. The washer will be the big draw there and it really shouldn't even need the full 15 itself anyway. You may want to check the breaker size and maybe replace it if it's older. 20 amp breaker. Built in 95 Most microwaves are around 1,000 W RF power and need a dedicated 20 amp circuit. Cost to add another circuit depends on house style (basement? one story with attic, crawlspace?) It is about access more than anything else. Drop a new 20 amp circuit for the microwave in. It does NOT need a GFCI if in a cabinet. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:18:44 PM EDT
[#14]
That is some lazy stuff, painting over outlets. The way you have described the former garage circuit, it is either wired directly to the load side of the main(bad) or the breaker it is connected to is inoperable (still bad).
Take a pic for us when you get a chance. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:19:44 PM EDT
[#15]
In for the ARF electrician games!
Sorry, just saw not GD. 
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Posted: 3/14/2017 2:41:25 PM EDT
[#16]
I really miss the days of placing pennies behind a blown 30 amp glass fuse in the potato house on 12g wire without a ground.
look into getting the nuke on it's own breaker... |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 5:44:38 PM EDT
[#17]
you could have a failed breaker.
you need to verify the breaker actually works with an electrical meter going breaker by breaker. microwave should be on it's own circuit |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 8:13:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is some lazy stuff, painting over outlets. The way you have described the former garage circuit, it is either wired directly to the load side of the main(bad) or the breaker it is connected to is inoperable (still bad). Take a pic for us when you get a chance. Did you want one with the cover off? I can take one, but dooty calls
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Posted: 3/14/2017 8:34:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you want one with the cover off? I can take one, but dooty calls
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Posted: 3/14/2017 8:54:34 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My GD response is 'who put the money shot inside your panel'? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Did you want one with the cover off? I can take one, but dooty calls Previous owners really sucked. Horible at painting. Most of the white trim paint is on the walls..... Like I said, they didn't take the time to mask off anything. They even painted over outlets. I would love to replace the panel cover, but it is discontinued. I did find one though, but im not paying $260 just for a cover. That said, when I get around to working in the laundry room (where the panel is), I may just print me up some new labels and copy them over, strip the layers of paint and texture off, and repaint. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 9:22:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Previous owners really sucked. Horible at painting. Most of the white trim paint is on the walls..... Like I said, they didn't take the time to mask off anything. They even painted over outlets. I would love to replace the panel cover, but it is discontinued. I did find one though, but im not paying $260 just for a cover. That said, when I get around to working in the laundry room (where the panel is), I may just print me up some new labels and copy them over, strip the layers of paint and texture off, and repaint. Any chance there is another panel in the house and the one you know of is just a sub panel? I doubt it but things happen. Panels in a closet and the closet sealed off with the intent to open it up later to a different room, panel behind an open door that never gets closed etc. Like I said, I doubt that but sometimes it pays to take an circumspect look around. Had a friend who bought a really old house with partially completed Renovations. After several years he went around the house outside doing a window count to estimate costs of window replacement. It dawned on him he had extra in the back. He got out a ladder and looked into the rear upstairs windows and found two rooms with no entrance from the rest of the house. It really did have a funky layout with multiple staircases and halls. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 9:58:21 PM EDT
[#22]
Really good point he made. Are you certain there is no other panel?
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Posted: 3/14/2017 10:02:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any chance there is another panel in the house and the one you know of is just a sub panel? I doubt it but things happen. Panels in a closet and the closet sealed off with the intent to open it up later to a different room, panel behind an open door that never gets closed etc. Like I said, I doubt that but sometimes it pays to take an circumspect look around. Had a friend who bought a really old house with partially completed Renovations. After several years he went around the house outside doing a window count to estimate costs of window replacement. It dawned on him he had extra in the back. He got out a ladder and looked into the rear upstairs windows and found two rooms with no entrance from the rest of the house. It really did have a funky layout with multiple staircases and halls. If there is a sub-panel, there should be a breaker in the main panel that is marked 'sub panel'. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 10:47:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any chance there is another panel in the house and the one you know of is just a sub panel? I doubt it but things happen. Panels in a closet and the closet sealed off with the intent to open it up later to a different room, panel behind an open door that never gets closed etc. Like I said, I doubt that but sometimes it pays to take an circumspect look around. Had a friend who bought a really old house with partially completed Renovations. After several years he went around the house outside doing a window count to estimate costs of window replacement. It dawned on him he had extra in the back. He got out a ladder and looked into the rear upstairs windows and found two rooms with no entrance from the rest of the house. It really did have a funky layout with multiple staircases and halls. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Previous owners really sucked. Horible at painting. Most of the white trim paint is on the walls..... Like I said, they didn't take the time to mask off anything. They even painted over outlets. I would love to replace the panel cover, but it is discontinued. I did find one though, but im not paying $260 just for a cover. That said, when I get around to working in the laundry room (where the panel is), I may just print me up some new labels and copy them over, strip the layers of paint and texture off, and repaint. Any chance there is another panel in the house and the one you know of is just a sub panel? I doubt it but things happen. Panels in a closet and the closet sealed off with the intent to open it up later to a different room, panel behind an open door that never gets closed etc. Like I said, I doubt that but sometimes it pays to take an circumspect look around. Had a friend who bought a really old house with partially completed Renovations. After several years he went around the house outside doing a window count to estimate costs of window replacement. It dawned on him he had extra in the back. He got out a ladder and looked into the rear upstairs windows and found two rooms with no entrance from the rest of the house. It really did have a funky layout with multiple staircases and halls. No other panels. No hidden spots either |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:02:01 PM EDT
[#25]
Aren't the Cutler Hammer breakers bad news. For $260 you should be able to upgrade to a new service panel.
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:07:36 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aren't the Cutler Hammer breakers bad news. For $260 you should be able to upgrade to a new service panel. That's a new one. Never had a problem with CH breakers. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:32:05 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aren't the Cutler Hammer breakers bad news. For $260 you should be able to upgrade to a new service panel. Federal Pacific Stab Lok breakers are bad news. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:59:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Federal Pacific Stab Lok breakers are bad news. OK thanks. I also read that breakers are not designed to trip too many times without becoming faulty is this true? |
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Posted: 3/15/2017 8:52:47 AM EDT
[#29]
Then if you really want to finger out why a circuit can only be shut off via the main, you have some work.
Have a decent meter, pull panel cover. Take pics of interior of panel for us. Get meter, hook one probe to neutral/ground bar. Take the other probe and check the voltage on each breaker, turning breaker off to verify breaker is cutting power. There could be a breaker that has gone bad and won't open. Wouldn't be the first time, and that is a pretty old panel. |
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Posted: 3/15/2017 9:37:38 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK thanks. I also read that breakers are not designed to trip too many times without becoming faulty is this true? This is true. |
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Posted: 3/15/2017 11:53:43 AM EDT
[#31]
Yeah bad breaker if only the main kills it....
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Posted: 3/15/2017 12:24:50 PM EDT
[#32]
I'll get some pics of the innards tonight.
I may also call my home waranty and tell them the issues to see if they cover anything. |
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Posted: 3/15/2017 1:15:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah bad breaker if only the main kills it.... This is why even after you turn off a breaker you use a meter to check that it is actually OFF. Out of habit I check them as I turn them ff. You are right there and can then slip a clamp on meter and decide it pulling the breaker is going to be easy. Pull out the device in any box you will work on and check it again. Do not use a non-contact tester. There have been recalls of a number of brands for failing. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 12:27:12 AM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 3/16/2017 1:47:45 AM EDT
[#35]
OP, do you know if the DW was heating its own water at the time?
Possibly the combination of the DW motor, heater in the DW AND the MW is too much. Sounds like a job for Kill-A-Watt to me just to know where you are from a current draw standpoint. eta Or turn off the water heat on the DW and see if the problem persists. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 10:11:24 AM EDT
[#36]
Pics, that is better than I expected to see. Nothing jumps out as bad wiring methods, so you need to start testing those breakers individually.
Anybody know much about that vintage CH? And OP, while you are in there testing might as well kill the main, TEST to make sure it works. While it's off, check torque on all the wire connections EXCEPT the incoming main. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 3:35:25 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pics, that is better than I expected to see. Nothing jumps out as bad wiring methods, so you need to start testing those breakers individually. Anybody know much about that vintage CH? And OP, while you are in there testing might as well kill the main, TEST to make sure it works. While it's off, check torque on all the wire connections EXCEPT the incoming main. You should see my main. You can barely see the back of the box in the wiring gutters. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 11:38:58 PM EDT
[#38]
I know brickeyee, that is really a nice install. I bet that panel has never been touched since install.
Should be a bad breaker based on what he said. |
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Posted: 3/16/2017 11:45:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know brickeyee, that is really a nice install. I bet that panel has never been touched since install. Should be a bad breaker based on what he said. |
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Posted: 3/17/2017 9:23:45 AM EDT
[#40]
DAN, to figure out which breaker is not shutting off the remodeled garage you need a decent multimeter. Do you have one?
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Posted: 3/17/2017 9:39:01 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
DAN, to figure out which breaker is not shutting off the remodeled garage you need a decent multimeter. Do you have one? |
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Posted: 3/17/2017 10:23:26 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have one...somewhere. Not sure how good it is. But I can borrow one if I need to. One probe will go to ground/neutral, the other will be used to find out which breaker is not working/opening. I don't know your level of skill in this area. You really want to diy? |
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Posted: 3/17/2017 10:31:11 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone will do as long as it reads AC voltage reliably. You can test it pretty easy on an outlet or in the panel. One probe will go to ground/neutral, the other will be used to find out which breaker is not working/opening. I don't know your level of skill in this area. You really want to diy? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have one...somewhere. Not sure how good it is. But I can borrow one if I need to. One probe will go to ground/neutral, the other will be used to find out which breaker is not working/opening. I don't know your level of skill in this area. You really want to diy?
Well, I've built a PC on carpet without frying anything. I've switched out most of my outlets and light switches and some light fixtures. Basic stuff. I watched a YouTube video on replacing a breaker and it seems pretty simple 
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Posted: 3/17/2017 11:48:59 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, I've built a PC on carpet without frying anything. I've switched out most of my outlets and light switches and some light fixtures. Basic stuff. I watched a YouTube video on replacing a breaker and it seems pretty simple Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have one...somewhere. Not sure how good it is. But I can borrow one if I need to. One probe will go to ground/neutral, the other will be used to find out which breaker is not working/opening. I don't know your level of skill in this area. You really want to diy?
Well, I've built a PC on carpet without frying anything. I've switched out most of my outlets and light switches and some light fixtures. Basic stuff. I watched a YouTube video on replacing a breaker and it seems pretty simple Make sure the meter is on AC volts if it has selectors. Most do. My cheaper ones have range buttons for AC, V, DC V, AC amps, and DC amps, sometimes with ranges. Better ones are complete auto-ranging with just a V-A selection and AC-DC. Make sure you are on AC and Volts. It is pretty easy. Stay away from the input connections to the main breaker. There is a huge amount of current available there and often no actual protection except the pole pig input fuse. There are good reasons breakers can open under 10,000 amp loads. The easiest test points for a breaker are the output screw and the neutral bar. Once you touch a probe to the hot the other probe is HOT. Very current limited but hot. Touch neutral first. Then the hot. |
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Posted: 3/18/2017 4:21:07 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been replacing outlets because someone before me decided to paint the rooms....and paint over most of the outlets. I've killed every breaker and the lights where the garage used to be are still on, and the outlets are still hot. There's even a breaker labeled "garage gfci". Even that doesn't control the outlets where the garage was. .....If not try this. Leave main breaker on then turn and leave off all branch circuit breakers. If garage circuit now went out, you have 2 breakers on the same leg tied together at some downstream point cross fed (back feeding). |
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Posted: 3/18/2017 9:39:29 PM EDT
[#46]
The wrst one I have ever encountered had so many layers of paint from the plate to the face of the receptacle they came off as one piece.
You coul see the nice phosphor bronze contacts used to make the receptacle. Made a bulk purchase of duplex receptacle and replaced every damn one. |
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Posted: 3/18/2017 10:40:16 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If by killed every breaker, do you mean you turned off and "left-off" each breaker as you worked down through the branch circuits? .....If not try this. Leave main breaker on then turn and leave off all branch circuit breakers. If garage circuit now went out, you have 2 breakers on the same leg tied together at some downstream point cross fed (back feeding). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've been replacing outlets because someone before me decided to paint the rooms....and paint over most of the outlets. I've killed every breaker and the lights where the garage used to be are still on, and the outlets are still hot. There's even a breaker labeled "garage gfci". Even that doesn't control the outlets where the garage was. .....If not try this. Leave main breaker on then turn and leave off all branch circuit breakers. If garage circuit now went out, you have 2 breakers on the same leg tied together at some downstream point cross fed (back feeding). |
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Posted: 3/19/2017 1:35:15 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is true. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
OK thanks. I also read that breakers are not designed to trip too many times without becoming faulty is this true? This is true. Opening on thermal means the current is only slightly higher than the rating. They can do this many times. Opening on a fault (short circuit) means the currents are often VERY large at the moment of opening and it pits the contacts. There are very good reasons that the 'interrupt rating' of breakers is often around 10,000 amps. A brief short on a #14 wire is not going that high but can still be in the many hundred amp range easily. There are also 'switch rated' breakers that have higher quality contacts so they can reliably be used as an on-off switch. |
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Posted: 3/19/2017 2:49:02 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sort of. Opening on thermal means the current is only slightly higher than the rating. They can do this many times. Opening on a fault (short circuit) means the currents are often VERY large at the moment of opening and it pits the contacts. There are very good reasons that the 'interrupt rating' of breakers is often around 10,000 amps. A brief short on a #14 wire is not going that high but can still be in the many hundred amp range easily. There are also 'switch rated' breakers that have higher quality contacts so they can reliably be used as an on-off switch. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
OK thanks. I also read that breakers are not designed to trip too many times without becoming faulty is this true? This is true. Opening on thermal means the current is only slightly higher than the rating. They can do this many times. Opening on a fault (short circuit) means the currents are often VERY large at the moment of opening and it pits the contacts. There are very good reasons that the 'interrupt rating' of breakers is often around 10,000 amps. A brief short on a #14 wire is not going that high but can still be in the many hundred amp range easily. There are also 'switch rated' breakers that have higher quality contacts so they can reliably be used as an on-off switch. |
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Posted: 3/20/2017 6:24:23 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They are 20 amp SWD breakers, so they are suitable for on/off operation Breakers marked SWD or HID are suitable for regular, ie, thousands of cycles over their lifetime operation of the following: SWD: Fluorescent lighting HID: Fluorescent lighting High Intensity Discharge lighting These are the only breakers, and approved loads, for routine, high use off/on operations. Anything else is best done on an as-needed basis or, for higher loads that will be regularly switched, done with a relay/contactor or other controller. |
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