The hardwood floor in my dining room is nailed down to the subfloor.  About 1 foot out from the windows, it was beginning to bow up.  It felt like speed bumps, and would move down if you stepped on it.

The HW floor company came to look at it and said, "Look, it might be that we didnt nail it enough.  More likely, the subfloor sat exposed to the elements for too long, and will need to be replaced. (I didnt tell him, but the subfloor sat exposed for a month from dec - january due to deer season, Christmas, New Years, etc.

So, the builder had the HW floor company come back out and replace it on our 1 year walkthrough.  That was on 6/13.

It is bowing up again.

Good news/bad news:

Good: You CAN get to the subfloor from hte basement.

Bad News:  It is my mancave, with my reloading stuff, electronics workbenches, HAM radio setup, and a safe all in plain view, hidden behind a murphy door.

Even worse news; The HW floor company had 2 non-english speakers doing the install.

When they did the replacement on 6/13, I told them, "Sorry amigos, the basement is completely finished.  Y'all don't need to go down there, cabron.

Can the DIY Hive recommend how I am going to get out from under this one? (And get my floor to stay down w/o my house getting ransacked?)



UPDATE 7/22/16:

So the builder sent the HW floor guys out this AM.  I THOUGHT they were coming to fix the problem.  Nope.  They were tasked with "Fixing a squeaky board."  So, they didn't bring any new HW with them.. The two laborers, speaking spanish, said the words, "Subfloor," and "f--ked."  So then the supervisor comes in, and gives me the, "Well, you know that HW has different charictaristics, little imperfections, etc."  I show him the spot.  "I don't see it."  So, then he stands on it, and the floor goes back down with a loud squeak.

So, I ask him why his guys think the subfloor is effed.  

The solution for the day: Lay a piece of hw OVER the HW and smack the high spots with a hammer.  

Once again, I am back at the same spot.  The OSB seems to not want to hold the HW down when nailed.  Whether it is because the OSB is messed up, or the OSB just doesn't have the same holding power as real plywood subfloor.

It is going to turn in to a $#!+$#0w when the builder gets involved.  They'll say the subfloor is fine, and that it is "just the character" of the HW.  

I could go to war, then have the builders day laborers and the HW floor installers trampling through my mancave, checking out my ham radio stuff, Dillon stuff, and safe.  OR, I could get a screw gun and screw up through the OSB, in to the HW, and try to pull it down.

Pros / Cons:

I really hate the builder.

I want it to be right.

It will never be "RIGHT", since they'll have to cut the subfloor out, then patch it.

I am tired of taking a half day off to deal with folks who are trying to convince me my floor "should" be warping up like it is.

Any new thoughts?



UPDATE 8/6/16: The builder was out here last Thursday.  He and the HW floor company will be here this coming thursday.  The places where they played whack-a-mole are coming up again.

The HW floor used smooth nails to affix the HW floor to the subfloor.

They probably shouldve used cleated nails.

So, If they rip out the high spots now, within a year there will be OTHER high spots.  I do not believe that the problem is the subfloor.  They used smooth nails.

Think I am going to dig my heels in, and have them rip the whole thing up, and use cleated nails.



UPDATE 8/30/16


I had the builder and the subcontractor out.  Everybody walked around in my house in their socks.  We hummed and hawed.  One section is definitely coming up.  They will rip that up and look underneath at the OSB to "see what the problem is".  In my dining room, a lot of , "Nope, I cant feel it..." were thrown around.

The floor has creaks in places I dont think it should.  It feels like it is coming up in other places.   Amazingly nobody else feels it.

Now, I freely admit that I might be an anal retentive perfectionist.  However, This is the 3rd home I have had with a hw floor, and this one by far feels the $#!++yest.

What do you all think?  Hire an inspector to come out?  My thinking is, better to cry once, and make the builder make it right, than let the builder do another half assed repair, and I am on the hook for it in a year or 5.

Update 11/5/2016

So, the HW floor inspector says the floor is mostly in-spec.  The problem areas are the areas they already replaced; they didn't use enough nails in the correct places.  The inspector provided photographic proof.

The OTHER thing they found:  In the replaced sections, they used 2" nails.  In the main floor section, they used 1.5" nails.  This HW floors specs call for " 1.5" to 2" long nails to be used to nail it down."  So basically, they did the minimum.

I will be calling the builder this week, and sending portions of the report to them.  The BUILDER can deal with HIS SUBCONTRACTOR to get it fixed.  I'm done being nice.  I've already burnt too many vacation days to be here only to have them, "Do a survey to see what they need to do," or, "OOps, we didnt bring enough wood."  If they pull up a board, and it has a 1 3/8" nail in it, I'm going to make them keep pulling up the floor.

I was smart enough to finish the basement myself.  I was smart enough to know that I shouldm build my own deck, since builders charge you double.  I WISH I would've just had the house carpeted, and had the HW done by a sub I picked.  I know HW floors have "character", and that they 'expand and contract".  But, a 1.5 yr old home shouldnt sound like a dilapidated 200 yr old farmhouse when I walk on the floor.  More updates to follow...

Now I am really pissed at myself for NOT insisting that the builder rip out all of the subfloor and start over, since it sat with 6" of snow and ice on it for so long.  NOW it will be a REAL PITA to replace.

Every time they rip out and renail hardwood, it turns my subfloor in to more of a resemblance of corn flakes.

To get the ball rolling, need a few more details...  

Was the hw flooring acclimated for about 10 days inside the building before it was installed?  Was the HVAC system operational and running prior to the initial installation?  Do you know what type of sub floor you have, manufacture?

ETA- Did the hw installer acclimate the flooring prior to the second installation?

Answers:

I think the hw was in the house for a few days before installation.  Yes, the hvac was working, but it was installed in early march, so the heat might have been on.

No idea of the manufacturer of the OSB subfloor.  I might be able to see it from the basement.

No idea what environment the HW was in before the repairs.

Side note:  The HW only came up under the windows along the edges.  THe rest of the floor through the main walkways is flat and fine.

I guess the big question is, is it better for me to:

- Go after the BUILDER and have them cut out the subfloor since it is turning in to corn flakes from all the nailing?
- Have the HW floor guy come back and nail the HW straight through the top and in to the floor?
- Have the HW guy go in to my mancave with his non-English-speaking installer, see my safe, and screw up through the subfloor, in to the HW floor to pull it down tight?



Like I said, I am pissed off at myself for not going all alpha on the builder when the subfloor sat in open winter weather for so long.  (Yeah, I have no idea if this is a factor or not.  Sure cant help the issue though...)

I would do this- If you have access from underneath, take a #1 or #2 flat head screwdriver and try to stick it into the subfloor.  If the subfloor can't be penetrated or doesn't flake it should be able to hold a nail.  If there are any bad spots, I would bite the bullet and replace the subfloor so it's not a long term drama.  You mentioned corn flakes, if it has delaminated, rip it out.

"Have the HW guy go in to my mancave with his non-English-speaking installer, see my safe, and screw up through the subfloor, in to the HW floor to pull it down tight?"

That's not a bad idea and could be the least disruptive assuming the subfloor is ok.  They should pre-drill the subfloor with a bit that's the same diameter as the screw.  If you step on the bad area and it doesn't lay flat, the screws won't correct the problem.

"Have the HW floor guy come back and nail the HW straight through the top and in to the floor?"

That could work with trim screws if they match the color of the finish with the putty.  It's not unusual to have to mix several colors to get an acceptable color match.  Again, If you step on the bad area and it doesn't lay flat, the screws won't correct the problem.



If the builder is the only person that you signed a contract with I would pursue he/she for the repairs.  It's the builders responsibility ( I'm a builder ) to supervise their crew, the subs and to manage the site conditions.

FWIW- most OSB is crap if it gets wet.  Weyerhaeuser Gold and AdvanTech are a couple of exceptions that can stand up to the weather while under construction.

Good luck.

What kind of subfloor material?  What is the joist spacing?

Advantech and similar subfloor will absolutely not be affected by a month's worth of water.

Was the subfloor glued and nailed?

Is the flooring coming up itself or is the subfloor coming up?

If it's advantech then tell the flooring contractor to rip out the flooring and install new flooring the right way. It's also possible the subfloor was not fastened properly or not glued when installed. That would cause a loose floor too.

Op said it was just coming up on last few rows under windows.  Could it just be as easy as the wrong nails used, or not enough.  The hardwood flooring stapler wont get close to the wall.  I use a finish nailer through the tongue, then face nail last row.  Too short nails, or very little, or none at all.  ???

Eta: never mind.  Looks like that was addressed.  

What if they pulled up the last 4 rows and screwed it down into the joists.  They make some pretty thin trim screws.  Pre drill angled holes through tongue into joist.  Since it would be screws, 16" shouldnt matter.

Have HW floor guy check bowed up flooring and subfloor underneath for excessive moisture with a moisture meter.   I have seen flooring create a speed bump from moisture.  Being that it's under the window, make sure you don't have a leak at that window.  Also make sure there is not excessive moisture in the crawlspace and in the underside of the subfloor.

Details on flooring?  The wide stuff (7" planks) is more prone to this. All the subfloor stuff mentioned is correct. Was an expansion gap left around the floor?  Flooring installed under baseboards (correct) or butted to them and covered with shoe molding (half-ass)?  I would pull a baseboard in the affected area and see what kind of expansion gap there is. It should be at least 3/8".

I'm also suspicious of a leaking window

You described a leaking window

Very interesting...you might well be onto something there!

OP....is there any moisture getting in somewhere? Might have to look hard for it.

This.  Have someone check moisture readings to verify for water.

Moisture meters are less than $20 on amazon

The $20 ones rarely have much depth penetration.

How wide are the  strips?

Is it actual 3/4 inch thick hardwood?

Solid wood strip flooring does not need much space unless the strips are very wide (8 inch and up).
Every joint between the strips in the room opens and closes with moisture content.

That is why only one side is fastened down.

The tongue and groove holds the other side down.

If the bowed up area is  close to the widow size check for water leaks.

How wide is the room at that point?
Laid to tight?  This can cause large bows to occur. It is relatively rare though since flooring is not dryer than required very often.
How tight you lay strips does vary with the season you are installing them though.
It is more of a 'feel' thing.

Subfloor is advantec.

Subfloor glued and screwed? Yes.

Flooring is coming up.

No worries about moisture.  Or a leaking window.  The front porch is in front of the window.  No water is getting to the window.

The flooring is 3/4" thick.

Yes, there is an expansion ring around the edges.

Flooring company is coming back on Friday.  I will be here.  If they give me an inkling that the subfloor is AFU, I will go to war with the builder.  If they can convince (And show me) that the subfloor is in good shape, I will have them screw it to the joists.

Say what?


What kind of flooring is this??

Strip wood flooring is NOT glued.
Each strip must be free to move.

I misspoke; The SUBFLOOR is glued and SCREWED.

The hardwood is NOT glued.

Without pics (with a straight edge in the pic) it may be buckling from laying tight.

I thought advantek was OSB.
Check the hardwood floor manufacturers standards.

I seem to remember issues with strip flooring on anything except plywood or plank subflooring.
The fastener holding power was reduced.

Strip flooring does not need a very wide relief since it does NOT move as a single piece of wood.
Every strip moves separately.

New update in OP.

Is it a solution to have the laborers rip up the flooring again, and have them screw the HW in to the joists?

I didn't think about it until your update and reading through the thread again.  19suburban96 mentioned a possible sub floor concern.  If there is a four foot butt joint of the AdvanTech  and the installers only nailed one side of the butt joints that could be the problem.  You should be able to determine that by looking at the sub floor at each side of the floor joist.  

More thoughts



You should be dealing with the General Contractor not his subs. It's obvious nobody is going to correct the problem unless forced to do so.



You need to start becoming the biggest pain in the as the contractor has ever met. Document every call, and every visit.



You may need to get a lawyer involved.

as-  is that one or two cheeks aspiring spelling nazzi.

You're absolutely right, the GC isn't fulfilling his obligations for the project.  Sometimes a letter from a lawyer corrects that..

I put this in the OP.

UPDATE 8/6/16: The builder was out here last Thursday. He and the HW floor company will be here this coming thursday. The places where they played whack-a-mole are coming up again.

The HW floor used smooth nails to affix the HW floor to the subfloor.

They probably shouldve used cleated nails.

So, If they rip out the high spots now, within a year there will be OTHER high spots. I do not believe that the problem is the subfloor. They used smooth nails.

Think I am going to dig my heels in, and have them rip the whole thing up, and use cleated nails.

Cut nails installed a whole lot of hardwood floors.

It is more likely the substrate or being laid excessively tight.

Did they leave a 1/4"-1/2" gap all around the edges without it touching the walls?  There must be room for expansion on some of these floating floors.  In the summertime they will expand due to heat and humidity levels going up. This gap is covered with a 1/4 round molding that is laid loosely on top and only anchored into the walls.

Strip floors of separate planks are not "floating."

They expand and contract as the separate piece they are at the joint between each strip.

Yes, there is a gap around the edge hidden by the trim piece.

UPDATE in OP.  See the OP for an update at the bottom.


TL;DR the OP; They are scheduled to rip out, inspect, and replace one section.  They "couldn't feel my concerns in the other areas."


I think I am going to cancel the repair slated for 9/1/16, and hire a hardwood floor inspector.

Hardwood Floor Manufacturers have 'certified' inspectors they have trained.
Find one.

I would still bet the problem is the OSB.

Look up what the floor manufacturers spec requirements are.
Most have info available about suitable underlayment.

A few are very specific.

I know for many years solid wood or plywood were the only allowed sub-floors.

It took years t-nails & staples to make their way onto the fastening methods.

Cut nails only in the tongue.
Finish nails in the face.

Install masonry sub-floor.  Install tile. Problem solved.  

I have had two glue down engineered floors in two houses.  If you experience even moderate temperature/humidity swings, the wood is going to pop.  Tile solves the problem. Porcelain is what I recommend.

Use actual 3/4 inch thick strip hardwood over an approved sub-floor.

Each piece moves separately.

No panel failure.

About the only thing you can do is not acclimate or install it tighter than it should be in dry conditions.
It will then buckle as it expands when the humidity increases during cooling season.

The strip flooring in a church in my town was refinished for the first time.
Since the 1870s.

Bump.

Is the latest repair OK?

So, I paid to have a "HW floor inspector" come out.  Basically, as long as a HW floor isn't curling over to the point of tying itself in a knot, it is in spec.  The inspector contacted the installer and asked what length of smooth nails they used to do the installation.  Whatever answer they gave made the inspector raise an eyebrow.

Inspector is coming out tomorrow to pull up a board or three to measure the nail length.  

I am going to have them do it in an area that hasn't been pulled up yet.

My FEAR is, they told the installer, "Everything is in spec."  So, there is the CHANCE that the installer will tell me when this is all over, "Remember that section we were going to come back and fix because it feels like it drops 1/2" when you step on it?  Yeah, we ain't coming back out, since it is in 'spec'."

More updates tomorrow...

And this is why I put down floating high quality LVT and did the install myself

This.

Dont mention lawyer thought it will cause them to lock up - Kind of like jumping way down the road and freakign out. But they have to know you're not messing around. Simply document and take photos of every step of the process. Just had to do this with a roofing contractor over a leaky roof. Same half ass short fixes and 8-10 visits and almost a year later was the Fix I told them to do day 1. If anything the documentation lets them know you are watching and serious.

Also the note about the inspector is a good idea - you may take the hit but then you will have 100% backing to get it done right or realize its not the issue you are thinking.

Im not a contractor but OSB seems odd for Sub-Floor. The others on here seemed much more knowledgeable and didn't note that as an issue so maybe not.

ETA: saw the note about the inspector coming out. Ask about the OSB and remember just because the floor install is in spec doesn't mean the subfloor wasn't damaged from being in the elements hence working through the GC

Update in OP