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Posted: 12/19/2014 4:59:25 PM EDT
[#1]
not necessarily fuel...could also be blocked/restricted air flow
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Posted: 12/19/2014 5:00:29 PM EDT
[#2]
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not necessarily fuel...could also be blocked/restricted air flow I can take apart the air filter box and everything looks fine. Champion had me spray brake cleaner into the throttle with the air filter removed and that didn't help anything. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 5:31:14 PM EDT
[#3]
check the oil level.
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Posted: 12/19/2014 6:56:53 PM EDT
[#4]
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check the oil level. It's fine, how did you think that would cause the symptoms I'm seeing? |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 7:01:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Main jet needs opened up a bit. To meet emissions, they run these things on the ragged edge of very lean.
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Posted: 12/19/2014 7:03:13 PM EDT
[#6]
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Main jet needs opened up a bit. To meet emissions, they run these things on the ragged edge of very lean. Excellent and thank you. Do you think I should run higher grade gas as well? I plan to take a whack at this tomorrow. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 7:39:16 PM EDT
[#7]
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Excellent and thank you. Do you think I should run higher grade gas as well? I plan to take a whack at this tomorrow. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Main jet needs opened up a bit. To meet emissions, they run these things on the ragged edge of very lean. Excellent and thank you. Do you think I should run higher grade gas as well? I plan to take a whack at this tomorrow. Only thing higher octane gas does is help prevent pre ignition/spark knock. Not enough compression in a generator engine to give a damn whether it's 87 octane or 93 octane. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 7:41:09 PM EDT
[#8]
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It's fine, how did you think that would cause the symptoms I'm seeing? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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check the oil level. It's fine, how did you think that would cause the symptoms I'm seeing? Many generator engines have a low oil sensor that shuts off the engine when the level drops below the minimum needed to safety lubricate it. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 7:43:01 PM EDT
[#9]
I sincerely appreciate the knowledge you're sharing here, fxntime.
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Posted: 12/19/2014 7:57:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Many generator engines have a low oil sensor that shuts off the engine when the level drops below the minimum needed to safety lubricate it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: check the oil level. It's fine, how did you think that would cause the symptoms I'm seeing? Many generator engines have a low oil sensor that shuts off the engine when the level drops below the minimum needed to safety lubricate it. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 7:58:21 PM EDT
[#11]
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thx for answering that, bud! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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check the oil level. It's fine, how did you think that would cause the symptoms I'm seeing? Many generator engines have a low oil sensor that shuts off the engine when the level drops below the minimum needed to safety lubricate it. Glad it was brought up, thanks to you for that! |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 8:28:21 PM EDT
[#12]
If you keep the choke partially on, does it surge as badly as when the choke is fully off? [when warmed up]
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Posted: 12/19/2014 8:32:07 PM EDT
[#13]
If the good suggestions that the guys mentioned above doesn't cure the problem you may have trash between the carb and the fuel tank. Had a mower with similar symptoms that was driving me nuts, some compressed air applied to the fuel line blew debris into the fuel tank.
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Posted: 12/19/2014 8:41:38 PM EDT
[#14]
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If you keep the choke partially on, does it surge as badly as when the choke is fully off? [when warmed up] Not as bad. Midways is the only place where it runs OK (not usable, still). Champion support had me test the fuel flow from the valve and then to the carb. It's really damned frustrating as I know very little about carbs (learning fast) and this thing is nearly brand new and has exhibited the same behavior with two carbs. However, I have tools and can learn fairly quickly. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 8:48:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not as bad. Midways is the only place where it runs OK (not usable, still). Champion support had me test the fuel flow from the valve and then to the carb. It's really damned frustrating as I know very little about carbs (learning fast) and this thing is nearly brand new and has exhibited the same behavior with two carbs. However, I have tools and can learn fairly quickly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you keep the choke partially on, does it surge as badly as when the choke is fully off? [when warmed up] Not as bad. Midways is the only place where it runs OK (not usable, still). Champion support had me test the fuel flow from the valve and then to the carb. It's really damned frustrating as I know very little about carbs (learning fast) and this thing is nearly brand new and has exhibited the same behavior with two carbs. However, I have tools and can learn fairly quickly. Yep, way lean. I drill them out with dental drills but I've been using them for many years, better to drop the bowl several times then overdrill the jet out. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 8:55:43 PM EDT
[#16]
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Yep, way lean. I drill them out with dental drills but I've been using them for many years, better to drop the bowl several times then overdrill the jet out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
If you keep the choke partially on, does it surge as badly as when the choke is fully off? [when warmed up] Not as bad. Midways is the only place where it runs OK (not usable, still). Champion support had me test the fuel flow from the valve and then to the carb. It's really damned frustrating as I know very little about carbs (learning fast) and this thing is nearly brand new and has exhibited the same behavior with two carbs. However, I have tools and can learn fairly quickly. Yep, way lean. I drill them out with dental drills but I've been using them for many years, better to drop the bowl several times then overdrill the jet out. So drill out (lightly) the jet on the wire here? |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:05:18 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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If you keep the choke partially on, does it surge as badly as when the choke is fully off? [when warmed up] Not as bad. Midways is the only place where it runs OK (not usable, still). Champion support had me test the fuel flow from the valve and then to the carb. It's really damned frustrating as I know very little about carbs (learning fast) and this thing is nearly brand new and has exhibited the same behavior with two carbs. However, I have tools and can learn fairly quickly. Yep, way lean. I drill them out with dental drills but I've been using them for many years, better to drop the bowl several times then overdrill the jet out. So drill out (lightly) the jet on the wire here? You'll want to access the main jet which is inside the float bowl, it's in the pic below the one you posted on that site. .025 diameter hole for the main jet. This is the jet that makes it run lean. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:06:49 PM EDT
[#18]
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You'll want to access the main jet which is inside the float bowl, it's in the pic below the one you posted on that site. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you keep the choke partially on, does it surge as badly as when the choke is fully off? [when warmed up] Not as bad. Midways is the only place where it runs OK (not usable, still). Champion support had me test the fuel flow from the valve and then to the carb. It's really damned frustrating as I know very little about carbs (learning fast) and this thing is nearly brand new and has exhibited the same behavior with two carbs. However, I have tools and can learn fairly quickly. Yep, way lean. I drill them out with dental drills but I've been using them for many years, better to drop the bowl several times then overdrill the jet out. So drill out (lightly) the jet on the wire here? You'll want to access the main jet which is inside the float bowl, it's in the pic below the one you posted on that site. This one? Please excuse my ignorance of carburetor nomenclature, I'm trying to learn. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:13:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Jefflebowski, did the generator run properly when new?
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:15:08 PM EDT
[#20]
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Jefflebowski, did the generator run properly when new? For 12 hrs. Then cleaning the hell out of it with a few different types of solvents and sprays did nothing. Then I bought a new carb. That worked once. A week later, it went back to the surging idle. I've drained the tank and tried new gas a few times. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:16:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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Yep, way lean. I drill them out with dental drills but I've been using them for many years, better to drop the bowl several times then overdrill the jet out. So drill out (lightly) the jet on the wire here? You'll want to access the main jet which is inside the float bowl, it's in the pic below the one you posted on that site. This one? Please excuse my ignorance of carburetor nomenclature, I'm trying to learn. That's the one. I'd bet .027 or .028 would work well. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:18:50 PM EDT
[#22]
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That's the one. I'd bet .027 or .028 would work well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yep, way lean. I drill them out with dental drills but I've been using them for many years, better to drop the bowl several times then overdrill the jet out. So drill out (lightly) the jet on the wire here? You'll want to access the main jet which is inside the float bowl, it's in the pic below the one you posted on that site. This one? Please excuse my ignorance of carburetor nomenclature, I'm trying to learn. That's the one. I'd bet .027 or .028 would work well. Can one get this drill or Dremel bit at say, Home Depot? |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:25:19 PM EDT
[#23]
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Can one get this drill or Dremel bit at say, Home Depot? Decent motorcycle or quad shop. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:25:37 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For 12 hrs. Then cleaning the hell out of it with a few different types of solvents and sprays did nothing. Then I bought a new carb. That worked once. A week later, it went back to the surging idle. I've drained the tank and tried new gas a few times. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Jefflebowski, did the generator run properly when new? For 12 hrs. Then cleaning the hell out of it with a few different types of solvents and sprays did nothing. Then I bought a new carb. That worked once. A week later, it went back to the surging idle. I've drained the tank and tried new gas a few times. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:28:22 PM EDT
[#25]
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the reason I mentioned the oil level is because this issue sounds like an electrical issue and the reason I say that is because you have tried 2 different carbs and its still there. I'm thinking a kill switch is at fault. Either that or you put really shitty gas in it and its still there. Are you sure theres no water in the gas? I had the same problem with water in the fuel in mine. It could be a bunch of issues and I'd start with the easiest ones first. fxn is helping you out more than I can offer, that's for sure.. He is a real asset to this community. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Jefflebowski, did the generator run properly when new? For 12 hrs. Then cleaning the hell out of it with a few different types of solvents and sprays did nothing. Then I bought a new carb. That worked once. A week later, it went back to the surging idle. I've drained the tank and tried new gas a few times. I'll change out the gas tomorrow and double check the oil. I appreciate everyone's help in this thread, much better help than Champion's phone support. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:30:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Make sure your fuel cap vent is not clogged and the tank/lines are not vacuum locking.
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:31:33 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the reason I mentioned the oil level is because this issue sounds like an electrical issue and the reason I say that is because you have tried 2 different carbs and its still there. I'm thinking a kill switch is at fault. Either that or you put really shitty gas in it and its still there. Are you sure theres no water in the gas? I had the same problem with water in the fuel in mine. It could be a bunch of issues and I'd start with the easiest ones first. fxn is helping you out more than I can offer, that's for sure.. He is a real asset to this community. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Jefflebowski, did the generator run properly when new? For 12 hrs. Then cleaning the hell out of it with a few different types of solvents and sprays did nothing. Then I bought a new carb. That worked once. A week later, it went back to the surging idle. I've drained the tank and tried new gas a few times. If OP pulls the float bowl with something under it to catch the overflow, water should be evident it that is the issue. I hope the OP is using fresh gasoline, I always put a dollop of boat motor fuel conditioner in all my gas to keep separation/hygroscopic issues at bay.[ethanol absorbs water like brake fluid does, always keep fuel cans tightly sealed] |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:45:01 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For 12 hrs. Then cleaning the hell out of it with a few different types of solvents and sprays did nothing. Then I bought a new carb. That worked once. A week later, it went back to the surging idle. I've drained the tank and tried new gas a few times. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Jefflebowski, did the generator run properly when new? For 12 hrs. Then cleaning the hell out of it with a few different types of solvents and sprays did nothing. Then I bought a new carb. That worked once. A week later, it went back to the surging idle. I've drained the tank and tried new gas a few times. I would try, one more time, cleaning the fuel line and gas tank . If that doesn't work I'm probable wrong. Just wanted to eliminate the possibility that the obstruction is prior to the carb.. It does sound like a "lean combustion" issue. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:47:39 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the reason I mentioned the oil level is because this issue sounds like an electrical issue and the reason I say that is because you have tried 2 different carbs and its still there. I'm thinking a kill switch is at fault. Either that or you put really shitty gas in it and its still there. Are you sure theres no water in the gas? I had the same problem with water in the fuel in mine. It could be a bunch of issues and I'd start with the easiest ones first." fxn is helping you out more than I can offer, that's for sure.. He is a real asset to this community. " Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Jefflebowski, did the generator run properly when new? For 12 hrs. Then cleaning the hell out of it with a few different types of solvents and sprays did nothing. Then I bought a new carb. That worked once. A week later, it went back to the surging idle. I've drained the tank and tried new gas a few times. Yes he is. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:48:07 PM EDT
[#30]
Weird stuff seems to happen to me. My 27hp mower started surging. I checked everything I could think of and ended up taking it to the dealer.
Had a broke spark plug. 
For some reason I just assumed it had something to do with the carb or fuel and never considered checking the plugs. On the up side, it only cost me about $30. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:51:55 PM EDT
[#31]
I sent an IM to the guru of Champion generators. Perhaps he will be along to help out.
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Posted: 12/19/2014 9:53:01 PM EDT
[#32]
OP, does it only surge at idle? Does it run fine at load RPM?
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Posted: 12/19/2014 10:03:37 PM EDT
[#33]
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OP, does it only surge at idle? Does it run fine at load RPM? Nope, surges everywhere. Can't trust it to power anything. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 10:06:36 PM EDT
[#34]
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Nope, surges everywhere. Can't trust it to power anything. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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OP, does it only surge at idle? Does it run fine at load RPM? Nope, surges everywhere. Can't trust it to power anything. OK, that's a main jet issue, if it only surged at idle [if it even has one] then it would be the sealed idle/air screw. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 10:16:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would try, one more time, cleaning the fuel line and gas tank . If that doesn't work I'm probable wrong. Just wanted to eliminate the possibility that the obstruction is prior to the carb.. It does sound like a "lean combustion" issue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Jefflebowski, did the generator run properly when new? For 12 hrs. Then cleaning the hell out of it with a few different types of solvents and sprays did nothing. Then I bought a new carb. That worked once. A week later, it went back to the surging idle. I've drained the tank and tried new gas a few times. I would try, one more time, cleaning the fuel line and gas tank . If that doesn't work I'm probable wrong. Just wanted to eliminate the possibility that the obstruction is prior to the carb.. It does sound like a "lean combustion" issue. How would you clean the line and tank? I plan to just drain it, add fresh fuel, and then drain again, and then refill. |
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Posted: 12/19/2014 10:22:31 PM EDT
[#36]
This video is almost exactly what I'm seeing.
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Posted: 12/19/2014 11:43:49 PM EDT
[#37]
I use my generator regularly, several hours a week, sometimes more. It's a Honda EB3500. Few months ago I put it in a cargo trailer. It developed a regular surging problem. I piped the exhaust outside, helped a bit, but didn't completely solve it. Kept the door of the trailer wide open, works when there's a breeze, but if not, it eventually surges. Finally seem to have solved it by running a fan that blows directly into the air filter. Still have to keep the trailer door open. Obviously an airflow problem. If I catch it surging early enough and pull the air filter out, it'll stop the surging.
Not sure if that helps, but that's my experience. This generator never surged before when I ran it outside. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 3:59:42 AM EDT
[#38]
Have you tried loosening the gas cap while the engine is running?
Gas caps that don't vent properly are a VERY common problem - Creates a vacuum inside the gas tank that starves the engine for fuel. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 8:38:00 AM EDT
[#39]
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Have you tried loosening the gas cap while the engine is running? Gas caps that don't vent properly are a VERY common problem - Creates a vacuum inside the gas tank that starves the engine for fuel. Yup, tried that. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 9:15:45 AM EDT
[#40]
PPETEN Forums
You might try spraying some WD-40 around the carb mounting flange while the engine is running, on the chance that the flange isn't sealing tightly. The engine will smooth out for a few seconds afterwards, as the WD-40 temporarily seals the leak. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 9:22:33 AM EDT
[#41]
My old generator does that (surging). Dad said crud in the carb. I took it apart and cleaned/brushed/carb sprayed it out twice. No change. I've run two or three (or more) tanks of gas through it over the two years or so it's done this. Same gas I run in the mowers in the summer, or next summer, but only the generator acts funny.
Dad kept telling me I just hadn't got the crud out of the carb. I can't see anyplace there could be anything. Every hole blows air through it when I use the compressor to blow it out and everyone squirts out carb cleaner when I spray it in the other side. I finally just started running it with the choke partially shut and it stops surging and runs fine that way. Does it put out the amps it should? I don't know, but it runs the stuff in the house (fridge, microwave, lights, TV, etc. I'll be interested if you find drilling out the jet works. I'll try it on my old generator. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 12:18:09 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How would you clean the line and tank? I plan to just drain it, add fresh fuel, and then drain again, and then refill. I would remove the fuel line at the carb to drain the fuel and try to notice how fast it flows. If it's real slow that may be a clue. Run a rag around inside the gas tank as best you can and see if the rag picks up debris, jell or varnish. Then proceed to the fuel line and filter.. Backwash the fuel line with air or carb cleaner then install a new fuel filter. Add some gas to the tank and see if you notice a better flow rate at the carb end of the fuel line, hopefully you will. Finish up and see how it runs. If that doesn't fix the problem a least you'll know it's not an issue. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 3:30:21 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My old generator does that (surging). Dad said crud in the carb. I took it apart and cleaned/brushed/carb sprayed it out twice. No change. I've run two or three (or more) tanks of gas through it over the two years or so it's done this. Same gas I run in the mowers in the summer, or next summer, but only the generator acts funny. Dad kept telling me I just hadn't got the crud out of the carb. I can't see anyplace there could be anything. Every hole blows air through it when I use the compressor to blow it out and everyone squirts out carb cleaner when I spray it in the other side. I finally just started running it with the choke partially shut and it stops surging and runs fine that way. Does it put out the amps it should? I don't know, but it runs the stuff in the house (fridge, microwave, lights, TV, etc. I'll be interested if you find drilling out the jet works. I'll try it on my old generator. You need to physically clean off the buildup inside the jet holes. A VERY minor build up will cause issues. Carb cleaner won't do much but blow out loose crud. Just had to pull and clean the jets on my quad a month ago, it was amazing how little build up there was but the lean running issues the build up caused were anything but little. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 5:37:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You need to physically clean off the buildup inside the jet holes. A VERY minor build up will cause issues. Carb cleaner won't do much but blow out loose crud. Just had to pull and clean the jets on my quad a month ago, it was amazing how little build up there was but the lean running issues the build up caused were anything but little. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My old generator does that (surging). Dad said crud in the carb. I took it apart and cleaned/brushed/carb sprayed it out twice. No change. I've run two or three (or more) tanks of gas through it over the two years or so it's done this. Same gas I run in the mowers in the summer, or next summer, but only the generator acts funny. Dad kept telling me I just hadn't got the crud out of the carb. I can't see anyplace there could be anything. Every hole blows air through it when I use the compressor to blow it out and everyone squirts out carb cleaner when I spray it in the other side. I finally just started running it with the choke partially shut and it stops surging and runs fine that way. Does it put out the amps it should? I don't know, but it runs the stuff in the house (fridge, microwave, lights, TV, etc. I'll be interested if you find drilling out the jet works. I'll try it on my old generator. You need to physically clean off the buildup inside the jet holes. A VERY minor build up will cause issues. Carb cleaner won't do much but blow out loose crud. Just had to pull and clean the jets on my quad a month ago, it was amazing how little build up there was but the lean running issues the build up caused were anything but little. I didn't appreciate this until I thought about the fact that these things are designed with tolerances in the hundreds or thousands of an inch. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 6:19:09 PM EDT
[#45]
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I didn't appreciate this until I thought about the fact that these things are designed with tolerances in the hundreds or thousands of an inch. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My old generator does that (surging). Dad said crud in the carb. I took it apart and cleaned/brushed/carb sprayed it out twice. No change. I've run two or three (or more) tanks of gas through it over the two years or so it's done this. Same gas I run in the mowers in the summer, or next summer, but only the generator acts funny. Dad kept telling me I just hadn't got the crud out of the carb. I can't see anyplace there could be anything. Every hole blows air through it when I use the compressor to blow it out and everyone squirts out carb cleaner when I spray it in the other side. I finally just started running it with the choke partially shut and it stops surging and runs fine that way. Does it put out the amps it should? I don't know, but it runs the stuff in the house (fridge, microwave, lights, TV, etc. I'll be interested if you find drilling out the jet works. I'll try it on my old generator. You need to physically clean off the buildup inside the jet holes. A VERY minor build up will cause issues. Carb cleaner won't do much but blow out loose crud. Just had to pull and clean the jets on my quad a month ago, it was amazing how little build up there was but the lean running issues the build up caused were anything but little. I didn't appreciate this until I thought about the fact that these things are designed with tolerances in the hundreds or thousands of an inch. And remember, they are already running leaner then they should be from the factory just to get past the emission police. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 7:19:10 PM EDT
[#46]
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And remember, they are already running leaner then they should be from the factory just to get past the emission police. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You need to physically clean off the buildup inside the jet holes. A VERY minor build up will cause issues. Carb cleaner won't do much but blow out loose crud. Just had to pull and clean the jets on my quad a month ago, it was amazing how little build up there was but the lean running issues the build up caused were anything but little. I didn't appreciate this until I thought about the fact that these things are designed with tolerances in the hundreds or thousands of an inch. And remember, they are already running leaner then they should be from the factory just to get past the emission police. Oh yeah, given to us by the EPA, the same people that gave us ethanol and gas cans that don't function. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 3:05:35 PM EDT
[#47]
I hope to try out the advice offered this week since I wasn't able to source the drill bits this weekend. Thanks to all so far.
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