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Posted: 11/20/2014 4:58:35 AM EDT
Do you prefer push or pull?

I'm having a hard time deciding.
Link Posted: 11/20/2014 8:18:41 AM EDT
[#1]
I will assume we're talking about wood saws.

If the saw is sharp and well maintained, I prefer pull. A very sharp saw can grab in wood fairly easily, if it grabs on the push stroke you bend it. It is also MORE likely to grab on the push stroke because the natural physics involved means more downward pressure on the push stroke.

OTOH, if you're going to abuse and neglect it, push should work great for you!

Just my $.02
Link Posted: 11/20/2014 8:22:43 AM EDT
[#2]
Jap pull saws.
Link Posted: 11/20/2014 1:08:54 PM EDT
[#3]
push   because since cordless tools   I only use a handsaw to cut up big game  and push saw will keep the blood, fat, and bone  from getting all over me
Link Posted: 11/20/2014 1:15:07 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
push   because since cordless tools   I only use a handsaw to cut up big game  and push saw will keep the blood, fat, and bone  from getting all over me
View Quote

Yes, that is an excellent, relevant reason for choosing a saw for cutting wood!!!!

Insert sarcasm where necessary...
Link Posted: 11/20/2014 4:40:24 PM EDT
[#5]
I still have a decent set of used Disston hand saws.
They are still going strong despite being well over 60 years old.

The edges are nicely hardened and rarely need sharpening.
The handles are SO nice to use.
Link Posted: 11/20/2014 6:22:54 PM EDT
[#6]
I have lived my entire life without a Japanese-style saw.  

I recently hand sharpened my grandfather's hand saws that are about 100 years old.  After sharpening, I used them to cut up a sheet of plywood for a project I was working on.  The saw cut cleanly and tracked the pencil line very accurately (you can split the pencil line if you need to).  

All my back saws are push to cut.  The bench hook I use them with is designed for that cutting method.  The Janaese style saws need a different style but you still need/want a bench hook.

Both take a little bit longer than a circular saw but not that much if you consider stringing the power cord, the edge guide, etc.  Besides, I'm not a pro, time is not money.

A good blade on a table saw is superior to both for most things.  My table saw is not a permanent installation, so overall, it would be slowest due to set-up time and it really sucks trying to push a 4'X8' sheet over a table saw.
Link Posted: 11/20/2014 6:41:24 PM EDT
[#7]

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Quoted:


Jap pull saws.
View Quote




 
Link Posted: 11/21/2014 1:47:08 AM EDT
[#8]
Western push saw.  If you use a properly sharpened one you will never ask why use the japanese pull style.

These are the best saws I have ever used.  I now have several different ones for rip or crosscutting.
http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/about-me.php
http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/index.php

They may seem a little expensive but they will last a lifetime for most of us.  And they can be resharpened.  They track straight, have a thin kerf, and can cut very quickly.  I once thought japanese pull style were the ones to use, for fine joinery - not anymore.
There are some other makers out there (lie nielsen - OK but not as good as BA, grammercy - their dovetail saw is good, LV - have tried but do not own, adria - ?, wentzloff - ? But I have read that their deliveries used to be bad)
These saws all support Americans in mostly small businesses, even the junior americans at lee valley.  Nearly all the pull saws are made by machines in asia (the big box ones by chicoms) , except the most expensive japanese saws made by their living treasure craftsmen.

Also use push style framing saws, like old disston 7, 12, and 23.  They cut great, quickly, and with care, accurately.  The bigger saws are obviously much easier to sharpen.  And have been doing all my miter cuts with a stanley 151 miter box and bad axe miter saw lately.  Its quiet, leaves little mess, and cuts accurately and pretty smooth.
Link Posted: 11/21/2014 2:02:17 AM EDT
[#9]
A sharp western style push saw will not be more prone to "grab" wood and kink.  That is caused by either using a saw with an unjointed (not straight edge), the wrong type - xcut in a rip application or vice versa, or more likely just plain sloppy technique.  A pull japanese saw will bend too with bad technique, and they will kink badly in the proxess, and break teeth due to the induction hardening of teeth (unless you are using one of the super expensive ones made by the few surviving japanese master saw craftsmen, like ones sold by Hida Tool).
Using hand tools effectively and efficiently is no different than what's needed to shoot accurately.  If you do not develop muscle memory and most importantly give a shit about your effort, you will struggle, and want to blame the tool.

Link Posted: 11/21/2014 11:23:55 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Yes, that is an excellent, relevant reason for choosing a saw for cutting wood!!!!

Insert sarcasm where necessary...
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
push   because since cordless tools   I only use a handsaw to cut up big game  and push saw will keep the blood, fat, and bone  from getting all over me

Yes, that is an excellent, relevant reason for choosing a saw for cutting wood!!!!

Insert sarcasm where necessary...

OP said nothing about cutting wood in the post
Link Posted: 11/22/2014 1:31:01 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

OP said nothing about cutting wood in the post
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
push   because since cordless tools   I only use a handsaw to cut up big game  and push saw will keep the blood, fat, and bone  from getting all over me

Yes, that is an excellent, relevant reason for choosing a saw for cutting wood!!!!

Insert sarcasm where necessary...

OP said nothing about cutting wood in the post


If I have to cut an animal, I'll put on a trashbag and cut it with a sawzall with a clean blade.

I'm talking about woodworking.
Link Posted: 11/22/2014 10:17:58 AM EDT
[#12]
this really is a "get both" kinda deal. try them both and see what you like. i have both and for some applications i prefer one over the other. its a practice and preference deal.
Link Posted: 11/22/2014 12:24:53 PM EDT
[#13]
Both is what I got, now I just have to saw a bunch to decide which I prefer.
Link Posted: 11/22/2014 2:36:37 PM EDT
[#14]
A dull saw or a saw with damaged teeth sucks, no matter the style.

I have read that Japanese saws are much more difficult to sharpen.  I don't know because I don't have any.  

I do know, from personal experience, a western saw is easy to sharpen and set properly.

Can someone who has done both comment/compare the two with respect to sharpening?
Link Posted: 11/22/2014 6:01:49 PM EDT
[#15]
The mass market japanese saws are near impossible to sharpen because the teeth have been induction hardened.  The teeth become at least as hard as your file.
Most are made to be able to swap out the dull or kinked blade pretty easily, although not always that inexpensively.

The craftsman made japanese saws can be sharpened, but your triangular file won't work on all types of teeth.  They use a flatter profile file.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Product/156485/5-Feather-File-for-Japanese-Saws.aspx

Usually people who spend the money to buy a craftsman made japanese hand saw send them back to japan to the maker to be resharpened.  These saws can cost several hunders of dollars, and the men who make them are few in number.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Product/155862/10-34-Master-Grade-Saw-Ryoba-Nokogiri---Shinsui-Nakaya.aspx

Before Japan Woodworker got bought out by Woodcraft, I think they had some japanese craftsman made hand saw even more expensive than what they have now.  And sure you can spend a lot for a western saw.  I don't believe that japanese pull saws are better than western style push saws.  To say that is being ignorant of the incredible hand built furniture made here in the US during the 1700s and early 1800s.  Those guys didn't use japanese saws.  Its more about the man using the saw.
Link Posted: 11/22/2014 6:08:46 PM EDT
[#16]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Jap pull saws.
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Silky

 
Link Posted: 11/22/2014 6:22:46 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don't believe that japanese pull saws are better than western style push saws.  To say that is being ignorant of the incredible hand built furniture made here in the US during the 1700s and early 1800s.  Those guys didn't use japanese saws.  Its more about the man using the saw.
View Quote


It's always the archer not the arrow, isn't it?
Link Posted: 11/23/2014 4:10:44 AM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:


It's always the archer not the arrow, isn't it?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't believe that japanese pull saws are better than western style push saws.  To say that is being ignorant of the incredible hand built furniture made here in the US during the 1700s and early 1800s.  Those guys didn't use japanese saws.  Its more about the man using the saw.


It's always the archer not the arrow, isn't it?


On the other hand my ability to saw a line through a piece of wood in three dimensions improved dramatically when I got some better saws.



This was my goto saw. The blade is so flexible I had a hard time sawing through a piece while maintaining a straight line.

I'm not blaming the saw, but When I got the Veritas carcass saws, my lines improved immediately.
Link Posted: 11/23/2014 1:34:25 PM EDT
[#19]
I prefer pull saws
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 4:39:28 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A sharp western style push saw will not be more prone to "grab" wood and kink.  That is caused by either using a saw with an unjointed (not straight edge), the wrong type - xcut in a rip application or vice versa, or more likely just plain sloppy technique.  A pull japanese saw will bend too with bad technique, and they will kink badly in the proxess, and break teeth due to the induction hardening of teeth (unless you are using one of the super expensive ones made by the few surviving japanese master saw craftsmen, like ones sold by Hida Tool).
Using hand tools effectively and efficiently is no different than what's needed to shoot accurately.  If you do not develop muscle memory and most importantly give a shit about your effort, you will struggle, and want to blame the tool.

View Quote


I don't know what JQ is talking about.  I have several saws handed down from my grandfather that are traditional American push style.  I have one new push style.  And I have two Jap pull saws.  One of the pull saws is 23y old, bought for $20, and is still the best saw I have when I need to cut something by hand.  The amount of control I am able to achieve on the pull stroke is much more finite than on a push.  I would have loved to give my grandfather a pull saw and gotten his feedback, he was a carpenter and cabinet maker for almost 50y when he passed away.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 4:43:18 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


On the other hand my ability to saw a line through a piece of wood in three dimensions improved dramatically when I got some better saws.

https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product-800x800/9992f322-724e-4179-9e47-9819d86e4285.jpg

This was my goto saw. The blade is so flexible I had a hard time sawing through a piece while maintaining a straight line.

I'm not blaming the saw, but When I got the Veritas carcass saws, my lines improved immediately.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't believe that japanese pull saws are better than western style push saws.  To say that is being ignorant of the incredible hand built furniture made here in the US during the 1700s and early 1800s.  Those guys didn't use japanese saws.  Its more about the man using the saw.


It's always the archer not the arrow, isn't it?


On the other hand my ability to saw a line through a piece of wood in three dimensions improved dramatically when I got some better saws.

https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product-800x800/9992f322-724e-4179-9e47-9819d86e4285.jpg

This was my goto saw. The blade is so flexible I had a hard time sawing through a piece while maintaining a straight line.

I'm not blaming the saw, but When I got the Veritas carcass saws, my lines improved immediately.


I had one of those, lost it though.  That was the saw I would use when tiling a floor, I could place a tile next to door molding and lay that saw flat on the piece of tile (using it as a fence/guide) and saw the molding to the exact dimension I needed in just a few strokes without ever removing the molding from the door.  Worked wonders, but because of how flexible that blade was I would have never used it for anything where the blade wasn't supported.
Link Posted: 12/24/2014 10:44:08 PM EDT
[#22]
OK, I bought the Veritas carcass saws and a Zsaw with both rip and crosscut blades, Now that I've used them a bit, I like the pull cut saws better. and can cut straght! And I gave my old saws to goodwill.

As usual, thanks for the input!
Link Posted: 12/27/2014 10:27:00 PM EDT
[#23]
Depends on the job at hand.  A decent push saw can cut through material nice and fast, if it is set correctly.  



A Japanese saw has a much thinner kerf, which can be very nice on more expensive materials.  I would say 90% of my handsaw work is done with a jap saw.




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