Hey guys.

At my store I have a periodic issue where the whole place smells like burned wood.  The cause is due to a fire next door which charred some of the roof rafters on my side of the wall (strip mall).  The fire happened long before I was a tenant.  The building has since been gutted and redone with new drop ceilings, carpets, walls etc.

When it rains or on strangely cold days like today, the store smells like burned wood.  Most days it does not though.  Any ideas for what I can do do combat the smell?

If you have access to the rafters, you can paint them with Kilz, Bin or similar.

Some people report success with ozone machines.

You may need to pull down your ceiling and completely encapsulate any damaged wood up there with a paint or coating formulated for covering fire damage.

Bleach and fresh paint

Ozone generator will work.  

It will eliminate the smoke smell, including any residue in your upholstery and fabrics and on surfaces.  It is permanent, not just a deodorant but an odor eliminator.  

If the smell comes back, just turn on the machine again.

i like the paint idea.  not sure about an ozone machine. I believe the smell must originate in the rafters above the drop ceiling.  The walls are cinder block covered by drywall and plaster and the floors are concrete with fresh carpet.  I will look into the paint rated to cover up fire damage.

I had a chain smoking neighbor who's house smelled heavily of cigarette smoke. He quit cold turkey one day which itself was impressive. Two weeks in I went over and could not detect the slightest hint of odor. I was so shocked I asked him about it and he showed me an ozone generator about the size of a bread-box. Said it cleared the whole house in a week.

The ozone goes everywhere - the room, in the ceiling, above the drop ceiling inside the cinderblocks, inside the paint surface,... everywhere.

If the smoke came from next door, they should pay for your ozone machine, or your own insurance should pay.

By the way, if the smoke came from next door, some your ozone can and will find its way over there, too.

I also recommend using a Ozone generator but be aware of the health hazards too and the area should be adequately vented before people or animals are allowed to re-enter..

Dang, I dunno guys.  Ozone sounds like bad juju.  Is it a use once and done type thing? I spend every day in the store.


"Unfortunately, the same chemical properties that allow ozone to alter organic material in household air also give it the ability to react with organic material inside the human body. Even low levels of ozone exposure can cause the following conditions:

   coughing, chest pain, shortness of breath, wheezing, and throat irritation;
   worsened chronic respiratory diseases, such as asthma;
   increased risk of developing bronchitis or pneumonia; and
   compromised ability of the body to fight respiratory infections. "

To clear up some confusion from before.  I share a wall with a chinese restaurant next door.  It must have had a fire some years ago and charred part of the rafters on my side.  I opened my business and noticed the rafters being charred a bit but never smelled anything until a rainy day or the conditions were perfect (rarely).  I just want to get rid of the smell as easily and cheaply as possible.  I may be able to get the landlord to pay for it since it is technically his roof to maintain. Not sure if that includes smell.  For now I just burn a candle to combat the smell.

While those are the results of chronic exposure to ozone or to concentrated ozone, you are not going to sit there and breath the stuff.  You run the machine during off hours and air the place out afterwards.  These machines are in fairly common use, especially so for smoke damage.  In fact, you'd have to really abuse the ozone generator to get symptoms,... to the point where I'd say that is all BS.  That web site certainly seems to have an agenda.

Here's a quote from "The Disaster Handbook 1998 National Edition", Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida University of Florida -

"Fire restorers and dry cleaners sometimes use an ozone treatment to break up smoke molecules and eliminate odors."

More from the same source,...

During a fire, smoke can permeate walls and other surfaces and
drift through household ducts, where it becomes trapped. If not
properly removed, smoke odor reoccurs from time to time,
especially during warm or damp weather.
Consult professional restorers about a process known as "thermal
fogging." This warm chemical fog penetrates your home and walls
just as the fire did, neutralizing the smoke odor as it goes.
Consult restorers about smoke removal from ducts. They may use
a chemical sealer to secure smoke permanently to the sides of
ducts since these areas, with their joints and crevices, may be
difficult to clean with conventional vacuum-and-brush methods.
Consider replacement of attic insulation. Insulation may retain
odors.



It is highly unlikely the smell originates from just the rafters.  Once contaminated by smoke, everything has a smell that very, very slowly off-gasses.  

For smoke contaminated surfaces, but not charred wood, ozone is a use once and done thing.  If you have charred wood in your space, you may need to seal that to keep the smell away.

Seal = shellac + primer or Bullseye oil-based primer with an overcoat of paint.

I would talk to the landlord about this.  It isn't your responsibility.  Did he disclose this fire damage to you prior to your renting the place?

The more I think about the fact that you are renting this store space, the more clear it is to me that you should do nothing until you contact your landlord.

Did they disclose the previously known fire damage and smoke smell prior to you signing the rental agreement?

^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Why would you take on any of that burden? Turn it over to the landlord, it's their responsibility and they sure as hell got all they could from the insurance co when the fire happened. I'd even bet that was one of the corners they cut (encapsulating the damage). Make em make it right.

All good points guys.

Thanks for clearing up some of the concerns about ozone generators. I am going to talk with my landlord about the smoke smell.  It is annoying enough to get it looked at for sure.

Notified the landlord about the smell. I also noticed there are actually two distinct smells in the store.  One is a smokey smell from time to time and the other is a sewer/gas smell which seems to be coming from one of the drinking water fountains.  When I smell the sewer smell and sniff the drain, I can smell it quite  a bit.  Nothing really in the bathroom sink as far as smell goes.  If I run water in the fountain for a bit the smell seems to die out.

Do those water fountains see much use?  Could be a P trap that dries out and allows some sewer gas to escape.  Running the fountain would seal the trap again.

It is one of those dual fountain setups with one higher than the other.   The lower one is rarely used and smells more it seems.  I tried running water in both for a minute hoping it would fix the issue. The smell subsides for 10-15 minutes and comes back.  Not sure what to do about it.  Fountains were new 6-7 months ago. New plumbing for the space as well. Had to tear up the concrete floors to place the toilet, sink, and fountains.

Sewer gas is finding it's way in through a dried up P-trap. I have one bathroom in my house that doesn't get used so about once a month, or when I remember, I'll run some water just to fill the P-trap. It's the cork in the bottle that separates your indoor environment from the sewer gas. Totally normal.

I have been running water through both fountains to see if it makes a difference.  The smell comes back.

Do the fountains have P-traps? If there were installed improperly they may not have p-traps and that is where the odor is coming from...

I am not sure. I didn't see that part of the installation.  Another update:  I pulled off one of the plastic caps on the bathroom wall and there is a strong odor coming from inside the wall.  Looks like this

If it were an empty p-trap which you fill, the smell would not come back.

Another hypotehesis is you have a leaking drain/waste line (in a wall or under the building).  Yet another hypothesis is water damage from fighting the fire.  In addition to water-damaged building materials, you could have water or wet soil under the building.  

What type of foundation does the building have?


This smell is just another issue for the landlord to deal with.  If you try to effect a remedy for any of these (beyond filling the trap with water or running an ozone machine), you run the risk that you, rather than the landlord,  are going to "own the problem".

Start a paper trail now.  Notify the landlord of the problem with a clear request they remedy the problem within a reasonable deadline (30 days).  Do this in writing, sent via registered mail.  In this letter, you can reference all the previous verbal and email communications on the problem and your prior request(s) for remedy.

Start a journal of your efforts to understand/remedy the problem.


If I were you, I'd start looking for other accomodations.  If you can, just move your business.  Your lease (if you have one) will not likely restrain you from moving given the conditions.

I talked with the landlord today.  Really nice guy and easy to work with.  He said the fire was something that happened 25+ years ago and the previous tenants never mentioned a smoke smell.  It kinda makes sense especially with it getting cold and people using their wood burning fireplaces.  It makes me think there is more to the smoke smell than I originally thought. Perhaps an HVAC issue or a shifting winds issue.  I also have email communications between him and I.

Floor is a concrete slab. The slab was broken up 7 months ago to relocate pipes for all the fixtures and toilet. That may be a starting point. I know the plumber had a heck of a time passing inspections before repouring concrete .

I didn't realize the fire was that long ago. I can't imagine that would create any noticeable smell from that long ago. Could be drift smoke smell from another source? Maybe getting into the inside environment outside the HVAC system itself. Sounds like a real mystery.

Sewer gas issue has to be somehow connected to the plumbing work done. Maybe a stack plumbed wrong, terminating inside a wall? Hard to believe that would create a localized smell and not more widespread. What does the place smell like in the morning when you open up? Is it still localized by the fountains?

Why do I feel like we are being "played"?

First it's this.  Then it's that.  Then, something altogether different.  Then, oh, by the way, I forgot to tell you something,...

How about this - buy some deodorizer.  It will mask the swamp gas and smoke smells plus your place will smell like apple pie (or whatever scent you choose).  It's good for business.  People like to come inside because it smells good.  Get a fan to blow the scent outside to actively attract people to your store.  Let them follow their noses to the source of the wonderful apple pie smell - your store.

Landlord came by today and verified the sewer gas smell behind the wall access plate.  The smell wasn't near the fountains when he visited, go figure.  Sewer smell was pretty bad this evening though.  Plumber coming ASAP as ordered by the landlord.

 I made the whole story up to get one over on you guys?  

LOL!  Okay, well, we've got your number.  

Honestly, although snarky, my suggestion of a deodorizer is a legitimate one.  It can help get you over the hump until the plumber solves the problem.  Even the idea of wafting the aroma outside is legitimate.  Purveyors of perfumes and cosmetics have done this for a long time.  Cinnabun does it in the mall.

I bought some of these to combine with my scented candles. Hopefully they will mask the smell.    

I will also add, the whole attic/rafter area needs to be sprayed, not just the area by you.  The smell will keep coming back. We usually do the ozone if it's a smaller space.  Bad news is that if the smell is there now and it's been restored then it's in the new insulation now.

It aint gonna help in this circumstance.  Those timbers need to be sealed and THEN the ozone machine brought in, and even then you'll catch a whiff on moist days.

We've learned a lot more about his situation since I made that post.  He may even have contaminated insulation up in the burn zone.

Hey guys.  As I may have mentioned earlier, the landlord says the burned areas were from many years ago. Not sure if that matters.  The space was a complete build out.  The only thing to begin with was the floor, 4 walls and the roof.  It has a drop ceiling with no insulation now.  I am contending with some smoke smell and a sewer gas smell at times.  The landlord verified with me the sewer gas smell. It is definitely noticeable when you pop the access cap off the interior wall of the bathroom.

The sewer gas smell could be from an abandoned pipe that was not properly capped off.
A lot of retail spaces go through many renovations over the years so there could be numerous sanitary lines under that slab.

UPDATE:

A plumber came by to look at the plumbing.  Wall was cut out and the connections looked good and no leaks were found.  He did find an old roof vent just above the bathroom.  When you looked up the vent you could see daylight.  When he hopped up on the roof he saw the sewer vent was just above the roof and the roof vent was two feet above the roof.  He extended the sewer vent and plugged up the roof vent for now.  The smell seems to be mostly gone.  I will let it air out for a few days to see what happens.

He said it is possible under the right conditions for the sewer gas to blow up into the roof vent pipe and cause  a smell inside.

UPDATE:  Smell is back