I have some things I need to get off my chest, and I find that I'm frustrating my wife when I bring some of these things to her. But first, a little background is due:

I have 3 children under the age of 5, and we want to raise them in Faith. About a year ago, my wife began attending a local church bible study and mom to mom program. I've noticed remarkable changes in her priorities in life and her desires as a mother since then, all of them are positive. But it's also driving some conversations between us that are bringing to light my relative lack of faith compared with hers. When I bring up things that I find conflicting or frustrating about the bible, she seems to get frustrated by my pessimism, understandably so.

We both grew up Catholic. She held on to her Catholic beliefs far longer than I did. I can remember being in the 2nd grade preparing for the sacrament of Reconciliation and thinking that the idea of confessing my sins to another man not seeming to align with the Bible. From my point of view, an all knowing God would know what's within my heart, why would I need to confess to a man when I could (and should) just ask forgiveness from God? I was skeptical of that particular faith from the start. It didn't help that generally speaking the Catholic church didn't seem to encourage people to read the bible, so my overall understanding of it is very low. On top of this, over the course of my attendance in various Catholic churches and schools I got to know quite well 7 different priests over that time span. Of those 7, 4 were eventually excommunicated for sexually molesting little children (I never was), or having child pornography found on their computers, etc. The 5th left the priesthood to marry a woman from his congregation that almost everyone thought he was shacking up with while still the pastor of this particular church. This left me with an overwhelming distrust of religious organizations generally speaking, and certainly of the people leading such organizations. Throw in a few headlines of pastors in poor neighborhoods starting churches that require 10% tithing to the church just so the guy can wear Rolex watches and drive a Mercedes, and my interest in further pursuing faith has almost completely gone out the window. The only thing that really motivates me now is supporting my wife, and the guilt/fear of the consequences if I don't put more effort into it. If I'm going to attend a church now, it will be based 100% on the teachings of the Bible, and the moment I see them interjecting their own man made rules, I'll be out looking for another.

I'm a very pragmatic guy. The world works the way it appears to work, i.e. if I change my diet and lose weight as a result, that's because of an action I've taken, not some blessing from God. Maybe you could make the argument that God gave me the gift of insight to realize an unhealthy behavior, but it was still me that made a change in my lifestyle. If I told my story of weight loss to the people I've met at this Church (who have all been wonderfully kind and generous), they would say something like "Praise God for that". I immediately think, "why"? I took an action and there was a direct result which can be scientifically repeated - All this say, when I read a story in the Bible about a man walking on water, my mind seems wired to immediately call BS and start asking questions of whether the author of this passage was merely trying to market the awesomeness of this guy who lived a few generations before. And this is where guilt/fear of being wrong comes in. What if I'm wrong? It's not like we have any other recent stories about a man being able to walk across water or turn water into wine or raise the dead, if this man were truly the Son of God then doing such things would certainly set him apart from his fellow man at the time, and would certainly be within his power to do so. But my mind screams at me it's just not plausible.

It would seem to me that as science further evolves, a lot of things point to the idea of divine creation. And I believe that science allows for it, even if we can't explain it all today. I'm okay with this, but then I become tormented by the seeming contradictions in the bible and of what most people teach about God. I've always heard that God blesses us with our talents and gifts and wants us to use those. Why would God bless me with an intellect that constantly questions and doubts everything he's telling me to believe about him? And if God gives us all of our talents, what about pastors that are opening new churches. Certainly not everyone has the social capacities to do this, so of those that can, why do some of their messages conflict? In one church, the pastor will preach that thou shall not murder, while the other says thou shall not kill. There's a very important distinction there, why aren't they consistent if those men are all praying to God for guidance on how to deliver His message to the people of His Church? Even down to the Bible itself, we are told to love and cherish our wives and to not covet other women, yet the Bible is rife with stories about men who had many wives in ancient times that had 70 children and even numerous concubines. If we're to only want to have relations with our wives, wouldn't hitting a concubine on the side be adultery? Seems like it was okay at least in the Old Testament, I can't say I know enough about the New to know whether such stories show up there or not. The way this topic is covered today is that even thinking the slightest thought about the attractiveness of another woman is adultery. I've never cheated on my wife, never considered about having relations with another woman, never so much as kissed another woman or touched one in a way she wouldn't approve since we were dating, yet I'm considered an adulterer because I can't help it that I appreciate a pretty face. Then, take a guy like Moses at the end of his time in the desert, after faithfully leading his people for 40 years, God tells him to speak to a rock to make water come forth. When he instead strikes the rock, his punishment is to never see the promised land. If a guy like Moses can reap that sort of punishment for disobeying, then what chance do I have when if I'm disobeying God's command by thinking another woman has pretty eyes, or I vacuum the floors on a Sunday, or complain about the faults of my parents to others? Something like that leaves me feeling hopeless and guilty to the point of wanting nothing to do with studying. Why are some parts of the bible taught in a straight forward manner, and others extend into not just behaviors but thoughts as well? Look at the topic of wealth. In many cases, wealth seems nearly equated to sin, not because of wealth itself, but of the mental dedication (away from God) that it takes to build and create wealth. I look at someone like Bill Gates and think that man has created a ton of wealth and helped generate jobs and economic growth to support hundreds of thousands of families. Is God going to hold him accountable for spending so much of his time on his business, despite all the good he's done for the world?

I think I've laid out my point by now. I can't seem to stop this back and forth game in my head. There doesn't seem to be any clear guidance on how to interpret these words, so I end up ceaselessly debating every minute point to the nth degree in my head until I end up just feeling frustrated. I even know I'm missing the point in going through this whole process, but I can't seem to stop it. All that I end up getting out of reading the bible is having it pointed out to me in some other way in which I'm not perfect. I know I'm not perfect, but I try to be as kind and helpful to others as I can.

My faith, weak as it is, can probably be summed up as "I believe that there is a God, and that Jesus is my personal savior". And that's where it ends. I try to not be a piece of shit towards others I meet, and I do my best to provide for my family. I know I need to take a more active role in building my faith, as even what I put in quotes is becoming more and more difficult to hang on to. Guilt is not a good motivator for me, yet it's all I feel when I try. Guilt for questioning, guilt for "using my gifts", guilt for wanting to create a comfortable life for my family, guilt for not blindly submitting to the will of God whose presence I've never really felt in my life.

You just described yourself as as a deist

God wants you to act on rationalism. Physics is gods law.

The Catholic Church operates largely on an emotional manipulation of gods law, making you "feel" rather than think

Which isn't all bad since perception and instinct are feelings, but you need to use them in a rational way.

The reason Christianity is the most successful religion is because the basic concepts of cause and effect are present (which is very similar to rationalism)

So, love God but don't bother tithing to the Catholic Church is my advice.

Edited ~ medicmandan

Edited ~ medicmandan

I should have added that neither my wife or I consider ourselves Catholic any more, however we are Christians. We're currently attending a Protestant church that is much more biblically centered. I'm not sure yet whether they're the "you must tithe 10% to us in order to join" type place, but if they are we'll look elsewhere.

If you're at all interested in your Catholic roots, why not try attending an RCIA class? No cost, no commitment, other than time, at least in my neck of the woods. Turns out the Church has very rational explanations for everything it teaches. And I was raised Protestant.

This is probably the longest post I have ever seen in this forum!  That said, it would take a day to break up all your points and answer them.  Nothing wrong with asking questions or wondering.  I'd advise you to speak with your pastor.  

Oh yeah, since you are now a protestant...welcome home.  couldn't resist.

Edited ~ medicmandan

Thank you for your response, but I think that ship has sailed. I look at many of their teachings and when compared to the bible, they just don't hold water to me. It's like the way leftists look at the 2A, thinking it leaves all sorts of openings for regulation and infringement. No, I can read a plain English sentence, and it doesn't say Y, it says X.

This from the same guy who can't figure out why different pastors have different messages or can't reconcile Scripture:

"I can't seem to stop this back and forth game in my head. There doesn't seem to be any clear guidance on how to interpret these words, so I end up ceaselessly debating every minute point to the nth degree in my head until I end up just feeling frustrated. I even know I'm missing the point in going through this whole process, but I can't seem to stop it. All that I end up getting out of reading the bible is having it pointed out to me in some other way in which I'm not perfect. I know I'm not perfect, but I try to be as kind and helpful to others as I can."

I love that last line....are you crying like a school girl yet?

Rider_No2 gave you some excellent advice but you seem like too much of a drama queen to take it. You are clearly in over your head.

Yea I say tithe only if you feel that church will do good with the funds.

Protestant churches are good, thought I've found them to be kind of timid in thier teachings (they don't want to offend any men who like men for instance)

I don't mean to sound like a missionary or anything but I've had a very good experience with the Mormon church

Mormons aren't pushy about tithing either, they say it's something you should want to do (not feel obligated)

It's very common for new visitors to the Mormon church to not tithe for a while until they see what the culture is like

... But take what I say with a grain of salt, I'm not very religious but just happen to have a lot Mormon friends lol they are cool people

I'm here genuinely seeking help, yet all you seem to want to do is mock me. How very good of you.

I'll give you two points that have come up recently regarding what the Bible says, and what Catholics do: the Bible says to make no false idols, yet everywhere in the Catholic faith people are praying to objects like crucifixes, holy sites, rosaries, and tabernacles, or other people such as the saints. Similarly the Bible says we should make no objects in the likeness of God, yet there are paintings and crucifixes and stained glass everywhere depicting Christ or beams of light meant to represent God. If you can point out to me where Christ comes along and says these things are okay, then we can start a conversation, but I haven't found it.

Try to be respectful, or go away please

Doz if you can believe the first four words in the bible, Gen 1:1  In the beginning God...... everything else can be worked out.

I personally believe that skepticism or wanting to try and reason things out isn't a bad thing in fact one of my favorite scriptures God tells the Jewish people and the prophet Isaiah

Isa 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord"

As a follower of Christ i try to live my life as He wants me to, love people and be at peace with them, and i judge men by their actions not there words or title's whether it's pastor/priest/president or whatever

"you will know them by their fruit's" comes to mind

If you've never read Lee Strobel's books they might answer some of your questions, he was a hard core atheist who set out to disprove Christianity and wound up converting.

Lee Strobel

Also if you have time watch some of Ravi Zacharias's videos, very smart man who has spent a lifetime thinking about and answering questions like yours

Ravi videos

Anyway hope you got something from all that

Thank you very much! I will look into both of these sources.

If you want to play church.....you're doing it right.  

If however you want to love and serve the Lord Jesus Christ then tell Him that and follow His instructions.  The first thing He told people to do when He was here was "repent".  I'll leave that for you to figure out.  

Find a Bible that you feel comfortable with and read it until the pages start to fall out.  Get another one.  Start in the New Testament. Figure out who the main characters are....Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Saul/Paul, Peter, and James (the half brother of Jesus) and how they all fit together. Find an older man who has been doing what you want to do for the past 30-40 years and listen to him.

This is a lifelong journey......enjoy it---all of it---it comes to an end far too soon.  Embrace the good times, the hard times, the tears, and especially the times when you suffer they are all part of the plan.

Jesus said to Love.......wrap your mind and heart around that and change the world.  

I think you are asking a lot of good questions.  Glad to hear you are looking at some other churches.  If you haven't already checked out a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod congregation, you might look into that.    Most have  traditional worship and liturgy very similar to the Catholic orders of worship (Martin Luther was of course a Catholic prior to the Reformation).

Some key differences in the Lutheran Church are:

No prayers to the saints or to Mary (despite some common misconceptions, we don't pray to Luther either!!)
Doctrine is follows the "Solas":   Sola Gratia (Grace alone), Sola Fide (Faith Alone), Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone)


And there just happens to be a recently published discussion on Science and Faith here you might like -->  LINK

Faith -strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

There save that.

Someone else mentioned LCMS - Lutheran. That's what I was raised and quite active in into adulthood.

You mentioned a bunch of things that aren't in scripture. Fair enough. But if you were really interested, you'd find out why those things are there.

Who decided what was scripture, and what wasn't? And on what did Christians base their faith and teachings before that was decided?

You're on the right track.

If you have a Kindle account with amazon, I'll IM you a code for a free copy of One Book Rightly Divided by Doug Stauffer.

Doug's book Biblically explains how God has dealt differently with mankind throughout the ages (past, present, and future) and how not rightly dividing (2 Tim 2:15) the word of truth will seemingly cause contradictions to appear.

This book confirmed what I already knew in my gut, and was able to explain the 'why' behind the apparent contradictions. It has strengthened my faith immensely.

Came here to post this.  Like the OP I felt an enormous amount of frustration trying to meet this that and the other thing.  LCMS was the only denomination where I felt the acceptance of forgiveness through grace that is so central to the Christian Faith.  OP, you're feeling the effects of trying to meet all the technicalities.  Sit back.  Give up.  Accept grace.  

Then pick yourself up and begin service.  Understand that you're going to fail.  Over and over and over.  Don't let that bother you a single bit.  Just keep going.

When you need to feed your mind, check those youtubes for Ravi Zacharias as mentioned elsewhere in this thread.  Check same for some William Lane Craig.  Read some Alvin Plantinga.

You can do this, but you have to let go first.  Everything else will come to you after that.  I promise.

I'm a card carrying Mormon.

You do not have to go to church to be a good person.  

You do not have to believe every word in the Bible to be a good Christian. I personally feel that the story of Jonah and Job were pulled out of someone's rear end.

You do not have to tithe to be a good Christian either.

At the Judgment, we will not be judged by how well we knew the Bible, how many Sundays our butts were in the pews, or if we tithed or not. 

Do what works for you.

Faith is what it is.

You have to have that moment of clarity where suddenly God plan for your life makes sense, or at least you can see how he has interceded in your life.

Until then everyone is just throwing words at you that hold no real meaning to you, you end up just quoting back dogma, what you have been taught before.

The problem is it seems that all organized religions seem to have that small 2% tainted aspect - some doctrine that appears at odds with what the bible teaches. Let the Holy Spirit guide your conscious and trust in the word of the lord.

Thank you everyone for all the responses. I've booked a breakfast meeting with my pastor and am looking into some of the other places folks have mentioned. Also turns out my wife had a copy of The Case for Christ, so I started reading that late last night as well - I like the guys approach so far.

I will keep digging.

Sorry, where I bolded you used "bunch of things that aren't in scripture" followed by "find out why those things are there". Makes it tough for me to understand what you mean, could you clarify?

Sure. The "bunch of things that aren't in Scripture" was a reference to your comments about the Catholic Church. They have many practices and teachings you can't find in the Bible, at least not directly.

So do many churches. I don't know what kind of church you're going to now. LCMS was mentioned, and it happens to share many similarities with the Catholic Church. It's not like there's a chapter of the Bible that says "this is how you shall conduct a church service/mass." Where'd all that "extra" stuff come from?

Well, the Catholic Church has a good explanation, supported by reason and Scripture, for anything and everything I have cared to question. That's what I meant by "why that stuff is there" - i.e. why it's present in the church. Other denominations may or may not have similarly well-developed doctrine. YMMV.

My point was, don't discount Catholic teaching just because it isn't clearly stated in the Bible. There's probably a lot behind it.

Okay that makes more sense. I get what you're saying, my issue with Catholicism has been their doing what is specifically forbidden in the Bible. That, and my previously stated experience with most of the priests I've ever known turning out to be pedos and child molesters

It really is disappointing that so many priests have been guilty of such a terrible sin.  A reason people often drift away from the church is because of the sins and actions of its leadership.  Just remember that pastors are people too, and are therefor sinners in need of forgiveness.  We absolutely should hold them to a higher standard, and many strive to be as sinless as possible, but none will ever perfectly follow God's laws...only Jesus himself did that.   Whichever church you find as your new home, remember to be kind and forgive the clergy too.

Just cause I'm curious, what denomination are you currently attending?

Your understanding of the Catholic faith is a caricature - a little knowledge here is a very dangerous thing.  You owe it to yourself and your wife and children (since you are the head of the household, I assume they will likely follow you into error) to first understand what you are rejecting - the Church founded by Christ, Instead you are going with "churches" and doctrines invented 15 centuries after the Resurrection of Christ, replete with a bible edited  to conform to these man-made beliefs. As someone else perceptively noted:
 "When you place your conscience on the throne of God, and create your own little pet Jesus who agrees with you on everything; that is idolatry. When you throw away books of the bible you don't like, and confer upon yourself the power to interpret every scripture, because of course, your conscience is king (which means YOU are king), you are abusing the word of God, not obeying it."

Here is a site that can address most of your concerns with Catholicism: Catholic Answers. I hope you won't be intellectually lazy; the eternal salvation of you and your family depend on getting this right. When you die, God won't ask you why Father So and So was a child abuser; He will ask you to account for your life and why you abandoned the True Faith.

It's a Protestant, reformed, evangelical church. I had breakfast with the head pastor this morning, it was a very good conversation that's given me some different viewpoints to consider, along with some scriptural guidance on what I've been thinking and feeling. I'm at least inspired to not give up.

Good deal.  I will pray for you and your family.

If you're wanting reading material...

The Bible is (obviously) a must.

If you like The Case for Christ, I bet you'll like Tim Keller's Reason for God as well.

There are two books by Wayne Grudem that you will probably find useful too.  His Bible Doctrines is a great primer for Christian theology & it is written wth the layman in mind so its very non technical.  His longer Systematic Theology is good too but it was written with seminarians in mind so its more technical in nature, but not inaccessible.  

Grudem writes from a Reformed/Baptist/Evangelical background, so it should be right up your alley.

Your understanding of the Catholic Church's teachings is very incorrect -- understandably, since your education as a child was apparently lacking.  So is your understanding of Scripture.  You claim the Catholic Church does things specifically forbidden in the Bible, but that is according to your interpretation of the Bible.  God said to make no graven images?  Yet shortly after, he commanded Moses to do just that on more than one occasion (the cherubim on the Ark, the fiery serpent put on a stick...).  The logical conclusion: your simplistic interpretation of that verse is incorrect.  If your interpretation is wrong in this area (and it is), then it is likely wrong in many other areas about the Catholic Church.  How do you know your interpretation of the Bible is correct and the Catholic Church's is wrong?  What authority do you claim to have to interpret Scripture that the Catholic Church cannot also claim to have? 

Who compiled the Bible, deciding what books are included in the canon of the inspired Word of God?  The Catholic Church compiled the Bible, so why would they include verses that supposedly condemn practices that they do?  That's illogical.  How did the early Christians of the first 4 or 5 centuries behave and what did they teach, especially Christian teachers and leaders before the Bible was compiled in 394AD?  This is simple history, and easily discoverable, but I'm willing to bet you have never been taught this, nor have you been encouraged to find it.

Now, the scandalous abuses committed by the priests you know is a grave sin, but that does not negate the truth of what is taught.  It means they failed to live that which they vowed to teach and live. -- probably to great harm of others.  The rate of abuse among priests is about the same or less than among other religions, so if a small minority of pastors sinning negates doctrine, then the Jews, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc., are also all wrong.  That is not a reason to reject something.  Judge a religion by how its best members live up to the teachings, not its worst members.

I have taught the Catholic faith for many years (BA in Theology with a concentration in Religious Education), so I am happy to address your objections and answer your misconceptions about the Church.  Just shoot me a message on here, as it is something more conducive to a one-on-one conversation.

As a Baptized Catholic, you have access to the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Pray earnestly to Him for guidance, and He will not let you down.

As others have said, your Catholic formation was badly done - hardly surprising, as this is the case for at least 2 generations since the end of Vatican II when Catholic teachers became unsure of how to properly teach the faith. Fortunately, things are getting better.

As mentioned before, the Catholic Answers website can answer many of your questions and objections, and I can recommend the book "Rome Sweet Home" by Scott Hahn as an amazing read to see how a Protestant minister, trying to debunk Catholicism, became convicted of its truth instead. He is now one of the foremost Catholic theologians in the U.S.

You are in my prayers.

Then you are woefully understudied on the subject

So why is this thread open when a man can post a blatantly insulting and inflammatory statement?

So how many priests have you known?

thank you

Protestant here...just so you know, there are pedophiles and child molesters in Protestant churches too.  They are everywhere.  We live in a fallen world.  I have disagreements with the RCC, but saying that some Priest are pedophiles isn't one.  If that were the way to judge a religion, you would have to reject them all.  I do have a problem ( and I think many in the RCC do also) with the way the situation was handled.  I would, and do have that same problem in denominations, when it is handled the same way.  Molestation is a crime and should not be covered up, or dealt with privately, to the exclusion of the law.

I'm legitimately curious and offer this in the spirit of constructive debate...what are the various intercessions to the Saints about in the Catholic church, as well as the famous "Hail Mary" if they aren't prayers?  

As far as the Solas not being the Bible, that is partially true.  They aren't specifically called out in a particular chapter or verse, but are certainly based on the Bible.  In fact, Sola Scriptura is just that - "SCRIPTURE ALONE" meaning the Bible is the foundation.

If we look at Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved..."  that is very much saying Sola Gratia - "GRACE ALONE."

IMHO, you will not find one church/denomination out there that is perfect in every way because they are man made with man made doctrines.

Satan figured out instead of just physically having men kill every single Christian on the planet, (the church got stronger when that was tried) it was better to tweak the church beliefs from the inside. Every single church has doctrines or rules etc. that have been influenced by Satan. Test all of them with the Scriptures and you will find it's true. Find a church that comes as close to what the Bible/Jesus says and ignore the doctrines that don't fit. Jesus is our priest/pastor.

I'm fully aware of all that. The OP statement was that 'my previously stated experience with most of the priests I've ever known turning out to be pedos and child molesters.' Really? With only a small percentage of Catholic priests being accused of pedophilia, and even less being actually proven or convicted, his statement is categorically a sensationalization. In the US especially the vigorous pursuit of pedophile priests has been fueled by a media that hates organized religion, especially Catholicism for its monolithic stance on abortion, birth control, gay marriage, etc., as well as the perception of deep pockets which absolutely ignites legal action. Do you think Brother Jimmy, the kindly youth minister at the Non-denominational Church of the Subwoofer will be found out? No way. He has no money and there will be no headlines to splash on the paper. Any discrepancy will be brushed under the rug and he will be quietly 'let go' only to later to hook up with his fourteen year old ward and get married - and likely carry on as a 'minister.' No, in the US this perception of a 'Catholic problem' is a complete falsehood, and skewed by the fact that most of the population is NOT Catholic. So then the 'problem' is with 'them' not with 'us.'

You have a problem with scripture and intercession? Luke 1:28, and then a plea to the Mother of God to pray on out behalf.

John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”  5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth
much.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were
holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's
people.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Sola Scriptura does not mean that scripture is a 'foundation.' Catholics, who actually compiled the canon of scripture, believe that the bible is the basis or foundation as well. Sola scriptura means that the Bible is the sole authority. Completely different concepts.
CCC 2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our
feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.⁵⁶ However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"⁵⁷ - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the
saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on
to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

Evidently asking a legitimate question in the spirit of healthy debate means I have a problem.   Unfortunately, each and everyone one of your posts in response to a legitimate question thus far has been answered very rudely, and if anyone challenges any stance of the RCC, they are immediately in the wrong, and you are quick to point out problems with the rest.

Consider this my withdrawal from debate.

Last I checked, allegiance to the Catholic Church isn't a requirement for salvation.

Jesus Christ told us what we must do to be saved.

The mental gymnastics that are used to justify blatantly doing the opposite of what the scripture says is cause for great concern.

Salvation is not complicated. However, men complicate it because they want allegiance, money, and power just like the Pharisees did in Jesus time.

Listen to our Master and King. What did He say? His words are in red below.

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

“Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteriesa wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.


“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

“Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. ”

I find the discussion reference to the catholic church interesting.

But, OP has a problem.


And, it's not a religious one (technically, all problems are, if you give it to God, as you should).


The original poster and his wife are drifting apart.

She is getting involved in her church, and finding positive outcomes in it.

But then she appears to be using her interpretation of the Word of God to criticize him (looking at a woman = adultery, something else I can't remember).

OP seems... unsettled about his state of salvation, and what he believes, and appears generally confused about his whole situation.


The first thing OP needs to do is pray. Even if he doesn't hear anything, even if no major ah-HA's come of it. Clear some alone time, and talk to God. Tell Him your troubles and concerns.

Then, if you decide to raise your children in a church setting, you and the wife need to decide together what church denomination you'll follow. She doesn't get to pick just because she thinks she's found 'the one'. You may need to remind her she is submissive.

Then, you need to seek out a spiritual leader that you can trust, who isn't looking towards their bottom line, or their own brand of Christianity. There is no conflict in Biblical teachings. It can appear that way just as a snippet of video taken out of context can have a completely different appearance to it.

If you can't find anyone, search online and test everything, just like the Bible says.

But the main takeaway isn't your vacillating faith. It is that the Word is not a sword to be wielded against you to modify behaviors your spouse doesn't approve of. It's also not for tit-for-tat against her, because all have fallen short of His glory.

Do some soul searching, find a place so you don't have an echo chamber for a sounding board, and try to grow spiritually!

ah

here's the part:

You err, in my limited opinion, because you believe in you, and not the power of God. Until you search beyond your own hand, and realize that you truly have very little control over your own life, you'll never enjoy a closer spiritual walk with God.

In your example, yes, you willed a change in your diet, and there was a result. But, what about the things you have to do that you don't have the will for? Where do you get the energy for those? Who gave you the discernment to realize you needed a change in diet? Who put an unhealthy diet before you in the first place, that you sinned into instead of eating what was right?

Praise God because you (hypothetically) had the foresight, and the will to make a change, and that the change brought results. Moreover, praise God that you had a positive outcome!

This isn't amway, you don't have to 'buy into' it. You do have to be able to accept that for some things, the answer may not make sense, and others, you may never get an answer on. Do you understand how an airplane works on a technical level? Did you inspect it before takeoff? The plane works whether you 'believe' in it or not, and you have to take on faith certain things, like the pilot is sober, that all the flight surfaces and controls are properly maintained, and that they won't run out of peanuts (lol, just threw that in there).

I've been where you are. I thought the whole thing was bullshit. I was very, very wrong. In my case, I had to study until it made enough sense that I could trust God with faith in Him. Once I got a teeny bit of faith, the rest started coming a lot easier. And, all the cosmic dots started connecting, too.

In this case, it's not only about the journey, it IS about the destination!  

My question, the first line of my response, was a measured and legitimate question as well. Sorry, your feelings were hurt by the straightforward, unemotional, logical response I made. I'm sure there is a participation trophy or something.

It still amazes me that a blatant lie like this can be posted, over and over again, unopposed by responses and uncensored by the mods.

Exodus 20:16 and all. Scripture much? In your haste to accuse others of violation of scriptural precedent, you trod all over it yourself! Brilliant!

Hi everyone,
Sorry I've been away for a bit, work has been stupid busy.

I had no intention of starting a debate between Catholics and Protestants here. I gave my experience with the Catholic faith simply to provide some context to show where I am today and how I got here.

Someone said I'm exaggerating the number of priests I've known that have had trouble with Pedophilia and child pornography. The answer is 4. 4 out of 7 that I've known well. 2 were teachers of mine. There was a 5th that left the priesthood to marry a woman from his congregation.

I have to get to bed now, I'll come give a further update soon.