For those of you not present for the discussion originally posted in 2013, I thought I would post some of this stuff again. I hope to lay out a consistent scriptural typology which will speak to the Church's belief in purgatory

Leviticus 26:40 They will confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their ancestors in their treachery against me and in their continued hostility toward me, 41 so that I, too, had to be hostile to them and bring them into their
enemies’ land. Then, when their uncircumcised hearts are humbled and they make amends for their iniquity, 42 I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac; and also my covenant with
Abraham I will remember. The land, too, I will remember. 43 The land will be forsaken by them, that in its desolation without them, it may make up its sabbaths, and that they, too, may make good the debt of
their guilt for having spurned my decrees and loathed my statutes. 44 Yet even so, even while they are in their enemies’ land, I will not reject or loathe them to the point of wiping them out, thus making void
my covenant with them; for I, the LORD, am their God. 45 I will remember for them the covenant I made with their forebears, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations,x that I might be
their God. I am the LORD.


Here, at an early spot in the Old Testament, God outlines a form for Israel to make right the broken  covenant when the people violated statutes and laws. It is clear in verse 41 that God expects that the punishment doled out on the
Israelites will serve to make amends and humble them so that He can honor the covenant. We know that God needs no restitution. He is God. He foreshadows the coming fulfillment of the Old Testament Law rather than indicating that he will replace it.

Similarly, we can envision a son who breaks a window playing ball at home. And the father makes the boy pay to replace the window. Does the father do this because he needs the window to be fixed or because he cannot afford it? No, it is for the benefit of the boy, not the father,
that restitution is made.

Here the scripture displays a typology which will lead us to the New Testament forgiveness of sins.

More typology.

2 Samuel 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. 14
Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. 15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD
struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

We know the story of David's sin in the scheme to obtain the wife of Uriah. After David confesses, Nathan tells David  that the Lord has forgiven his sin. Notice David is forgiven and yet there remains a price to be paid to make things right.
David is still chatised for the sin despite the assurance that God's forgiveness had already been granted.

Again we see a typology. God is constant, never changing, and so this model for forgiveness and restitution will be carried forward.

BTW all of the Scripture is from the Douay-Rheims.

Last of the typology from the OT.

Daniel 9:21 I was still praying, when the man, Gabriel, whom I had seen in vision before, came to me in flight at the time of the evening offering. 22 He instructed me in these words: “Daniel, I have now come to give you understanding. 23
When you began your petition, an answer was given which I have come to announce, because you are beloved. Therefore, mark the answer and understand the vision. 24“Seventy weeks (years) are decreed for your people and for your
holy city: Then transgression will stop and sin will end, guilt will be expiated, Everlasting justice will be introduced, vision and prophecy ratified, and a holy of holies will be anointed.

Here the angel defines a fixed period that will be required before the implicit and already  acknowledged forgiveness can be complete. Again, the covenant is to be restored after the price had been paid. The people are to be restored, reconciled with God, after appropriate restitution.

God had no need of defining a period of time over which this action was to take place. He is eternal and timeless. So the plan outlined by Gabriel was made for the benefit of man, not because God required any action in order to grant forgiveness.

2 Maccabees 12:46 "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin."

Despite being in the Bible for its first 1200 years, Maccabees was removed by the Protestants/Luther at the time of the reformation. Regardless, this passage and others speak to a pre-Christian belief held by the people of God that those already
dead could be freed from sin by prayer.

So the Old Testament has shown us that God has deemed punishment or chastisement to occur so that men can experience his forgiveness and be made whole. The forgiveness does not take place solely because they accept chastisement. At no place does God limit or refuse his
forgiveness. But Scripture clearly shows a pattern of required restitution. Although we can ask for, and will receive forgiveness, we still must make amends.

Does one literally need to be dead before one sets out on restitution?

No...

 Not trying to be argumentative, but I still do not see any reference to purgatory in the Bible. This appears to be a Catholic construct. 

 I am an ex-Catholic and my parents are still Catholic. They cannot seem to defend many of the things I have brought up to them such as purgatory, the requirement for works,  prayer to Mary, etc. 

 Please educate me 

I'm roughly trying to lay out this argument in the same order as it appears in the Bible. So next is this.

Matthew 5:25 "Agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art on the way with him, lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

In this statement from Jesus, He seems to indicate that a price will be paid by the prisoner. Sure, the literalist view of this scripture passage would view this statement as meaning something akin to 'debtors prison.' And that could certainly be true, But Jesus usually speaks toward his ultimate goal which is the salvation of souls. So in this context it is not a stretch to say that Jesus refers to spiritual prison. When we speak of Jesus 'setting the captives free, 'are we only speaking of bars and cells? I think not. The deeper implication is that a price will be paid, and those souls will
be held accountable. And Jesus does not indicate that He will pay that price. He says that the prisoner pays the price to 'the uttermost
farthing.'

So in what realm does the soul pay for his transgression? In heaven? No, there is no loss or penalty to be paid in heaven, in the presence of Almighty God for eternity. So in hell then? No, there is no escape from hell. So what about on earth? I'll admit, that's a maybe, a YMMV. I
think truly some do a penance for their deeds on earth. But all Christians? No way. And I want to emphasize that I do not think this to mean that we pay for our salvation. We do not. The Catholic Church does not believe that salvation is bought by our deeds.

From the CCC:

169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

620 Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (1 Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19).

But just as we will see later in the New Testament, we suffer loss for our sin, but will be saved (by the grace of Christ.)

Sorry to hear you have abandoned the Church. If your parents were too ill-equipped to catechize you well enough to stay in the Church, why would you think they should be able to adequately defend their belief. For some, belief is enough. I'm sure you see that wherever you go in the religious world or the secular (i.e. Democrats).', '' );" target="_blank">

Do you believe in the trinity? Sorry, not in the Bible. Believe in Biblical inerrancy? The word Bible is not in the Bible, much less a clear statement that says the Bible is a sole innerrant authority. 'Faith alone?' Not in the Bible. Altar call? Nope. You get the picture.

The first post was, or so I thought, sufficienct to indicate that the entirety of the thread would be to show a consistency of thought permeating scripture.

Does the Bible say that anywhere? Have I stated that in this thread? Nope and nope.

The Old testament was about mans fall and Gods plan for redemption. Which was the Cross of Christ.
All Old Testament scriptures you posted are about what the Cross of Christ would do to redeem mankind and its the Blood of Jesus that cleanses from sin.

Nothing else can.

Typology

The Matthew passage does lend itself to the possibility of purgatory though I take or took it to mean Hell which granted doesn't fit with a lot of theology out there. Where is the line between going to Purgatory vs Hell?

If you are going to comment, I wish you would actually read the whole thread first. You really shouldn't have a bone to pick with any of the posts thus far, unless you just wanted to lean in and take a quick swipe at the subject matter. I welcome commentary, but to just swoop in and say I believe such and such (and I really didn't read the text but thought I would comment) is a little empty. And make no mistake, even if you did read the posts, your comment was solely a personal interpretation and belief statement for which we have no guarantee of truth, propriety or appropriateness. As a Catholic, I do not believe in the total depravity of man (non-biblical BTW). I assume that's the basic idea behind your post.

The scriptural posts from Samuel, Maccabees and the others had nothing to do with the Cross of Christ but rather demonstrated personal atonement. The quotes from the CCC states emphatically that salvation comes through the love of God and expiation of sin by Christ's sacrifice. And I'm not finished posting yet.

I would agree with you though that typological scripture analysis, in general, is a methodology focused on God's plan for redemption.

I brought out this thread because this forum has been utterly dead for months. I think the mods have been really heavy handed in their management in the past. I thought this thread might inspire some cogent, civil commentary.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation no man can lay,
but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall
declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so
as by fire.

So, clearly Jesus Christ is the foundation. We can all agree on that point. The foundation is a free gift, the reconciliation of man. But we are left to build upon this foundation. The fruit of our acceptance of this gift is made manifest in works. This passage implies that there is judgement awaiting us. We will be judged on what we built upon that foundation. If the work of Christ on the cross is the price for all sin for all time, why would be tried at all? Why would we be judged. It shouldn't matter what we have done or not done. Yet this passage says otherwise.

Purgatory

So back to Matthew.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The inference here is that a sin against the Spirit will not be forgiven. But also, digging a little deeper, other sins will be forgiven during one's earthly existence and some will be forgiven in the next world. Where or in what state of existence does this 'forgiving' take place then?

If one is forgiven of all sin by faith in Jesus Christ alone, then neither forgiveness on earth or in the next life would be necessary. Yet we know that we can be forgiven on earth (by a number of ways). But why would forgiveness then be necessary
in the next life? Since this passage indicates that this forgiveness can take place in the next life, where or in what state would this take place? So this forgiveness in the afterlife must take place some other place or in some other existence other than one of eternal glory or
eternal punishment.

I did read your quotes, and the thread title.
There is no Biblical foundation for purgatory.
But go on,,

Because you say so? Your personal interpretation says so? Thanks for clearing that up.

To the op,

Can Jesus forgive all sins?

Can? Yes.

More...

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

In conjunction with verse 32 of chapter 12, this passage says that an idle word can be the source of condemnation. It doesn't say murder, or grave sin, it says 'every idle word.' Scary. So would there be rescue from eternal punishment for a
spirit free from grave sin, but guilty of an idle word? Reading both passages together one might answer 'No.'

The vital points of the last three passages are that we will be tested on what we have built upon the foundation of Jesus and that through that trial by fire we can yet be saved, that forgiveness can come in the next life except for sins against the Holy Spirit, and that
every idle word will be given account for and those words may condemn or justify us.

More from the gospel.

Matthew 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

In this parable too Jesus indicates that the initial debt was forgiven but that the residual error of the servant resulted in torment until the master was paid 'all that was due.' Jesus say that the Father will do likewise to the unforgiving.

I'd say that's pretty self explanatory and straight from the mouth of Jesus. No 'interpretation' necessary.

This awesome exchange from the 2013 thread![url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_135/1513917_The-purgatory-verses.html&page=2#i41924776][img width=25,height=25]http://www.ar15.com/images/2016/spacer.gif[/img][/url]

Originally Posted by Milsurpninja
So all of our sins after we are forgiven cause no stain?  Is it your belief that those on earth who have accepted Jesus are perfect while on earth and any sins they commit are solely due to Satan?

Also, I never mentioned anything about suffering in purgatory. I said to assume it was an instantaneous purification. Purgatory isn't about forgiving sins, it's about purifying the soul from the effects of sin.
It seems unusual to me to claim that our souls are perfect on earth in spite of our fallen nature and actual sins. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. What soteriology do you identify with?

Here is some more food for thought. This verse talks about our participation in Christs suffering.

Colossians 1:24 "Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church."

We would both agree that there is nothing lacking in Christs afflictions. It is the individual's participation that is lacking. I see this as a parallel that might help answer the objection that Purgatory somehow denies the sufficiency of Christs Passion.  It's not that Christ
isn't enough to make us completely pure on earth (as is testified by the Saints), it's that we don't always allow Him to conform us to His vision of virtue and holiness.

Tagging because... clearly I wasn't paying attention in class. 

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and
scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

God Almighty is capable of chastisement. There is no discernment in this passage as to whether we are speaking of earthly or post mortem chastisement. Have you been scourged in your earthly life? Some no doubt have. I think we all feel
that way at times, but have we endured enough for God to call us sons.. But what about the spiritual realm? Does God chasten in the spiritual world? This passage would indicate that chastisement is necessary.

Following closely on the heels of the last passage we have this.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and
to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Note that heaven is populated with 'the church of the firstborn' and 'the spirits of just men made perfect.' So where and how were these just men made perfect? If they are saved and justified by their belief in Jesus Christ alone, there would
be no need to be 'made perfect.' So how are the souls of men who are just made pure? Is it not possible for this to indicate that some sort of 'perfecting' takes place after death. This passage dovetails nicely with the earlier passage from Corinthians in which men 'suffer loss; but
he himself shall be saved yet so as fire.' So that's twice Paul has made mention of this purification.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask and He shall give him life, for those who sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death. I do not say that he shall pray about it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death.

A sin not unto death. One sins and yet does not suffer eternal damnation.



1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, 19 by which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison, 20 who one time were disobedient,

I could see where a literalist approach to scripture might lead one to understand this passage to mean 'in prison' or 'in jail.' But it doesn't say people in prison, its not a reference to physical bondage. It is 'spirits in prison,' likely imprisoned by sin or self-will. The clear indication is that these
spirits had the stain of sin on their soul in the form of disobedience.

It would also be easy to consider this a reference to Jesus preaching to all sinners during his ministry. But the reference point in 3:18 is to His suffering and death.

These 'spirits in prison' (not people, not believers, but spirits) were not in heaven because those already in heaven would have no need of release. They were clearly not in hell, because there is no escape from eternal damnation. So where were they? Or more correctly, what state of existence were they in.



Rev 21: 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie, but only they that are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

It is simple to conclude that nothing short of absolute purity will enter heaven. We know that the saving work of Christ opened the gates of heaven by overcoming death, but our free will and human frailty still lead us astray. How many of us
will die in a state of perfect grace and purity? A perfect state that will allow us to enter the new Jerusalem? Few, I would think.

Revelation 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

This passage dovetails nicely with the entirety of the previous passage from Maccabees. I only posted a small portion
of the Maccabees earlier.



Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written
in the books.

Self explanatory in relation to the thread topic, I think.

Thanks for all the information. I get questions all the time about purgatory. It seems to be common sense to me but hard to explain. Now I have all the resources in one location.

It struck me that although we can see and read the Scripture easily enough, it is sometimes more difficult to discern what the early church believed and practiced, especially if we realize that the Bible is a product of our Church and not vice versa. The sacred deposit is most
certainly reflected vigorously in the scripture, but what did the church fathers say on this subject, in the time between pentecost and the standardization of the Canon of Scripture, when the oral tradition was the overwhelmingly greater portion of what was available for teaching and strengthening of the faith.

So a few insights. The first from Clement, whom many believe to be the author Hebrews.

Clement of Alexandria

The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then
still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God's righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, "yet" etc.
(Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 [A.D. 150-215]).

Origen

If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and
precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain
without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire
consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).

Cyprian

It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by
long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

The underlying implication behind the logic of purgatory is this: Christ didn't pay for all sin, you have to pay for some yourself.

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

The bible teaches that Christ doesn't give us a new death, He gives us a new birth, and it is that new birth that is the promise of one's redemption. If there was a purgatory, then "it is finished" (which is a euphemism in Greek that means, "the debt is paid") is not truth. That has huge theological implications akin to saying that Jesus was not truly the Christ (Messiah), that takes away the sin of the world. 

Our new birth has no sin. It is the presence of the old birth where our sin comes from (Romans 7:14-8:1), and when the old birth dies, the new one goes to be with the Lord (1 Cor 15:44-50). 

You are pitting this verse against all the others that have been posted. Its a classic either/or Protestant delivery. If you believe that this verse negates all the others, please state why. And if so, state why your personal interpretation of these verses are more valid and more correct than that of the Catholic Church, Clement, Origen and Augustine among others.
Categorically false. Either/or. Again.

So you are saying that having been born again, you are now sinless? Your sin nature has been eliminated and you are no longer capable of sin. Is this your claim? I am curious because a Sunday school teacher at a Baptist Church I used to frequent once made this claim. I would like to know if you believe this as well.

John Chrysostom

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice [Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 (A.D. 392)).


Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome
sacrificial victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned .is worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of
assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf (Homilies on Philippians 3:9-10 [A.D. 402]).


Augustine

Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to
follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved
the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 [A.D. 421]).
             

All but denial of the Holy Spirit?

The fact that you have to defer to non-canonical sources doesn't help your case, it hurts it, as does your attack on Protestantism, which is simply trying to deflect from my point and not address it, then capping it off with an ad hominem. You've failed to persuade, so instead you attack people personally. This isn't my personal interpretation, this is what the Bible says. 
I didn't make that claim. I cited Romans 7. Let's take a look: 

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

I'm not saying that we don't sin after being born again, that idea is unbiblical also. What i said was, "our new birth has no sin." And that new birth (i.e. the born again one) is sinless and goes to be with the Lord when this old body dies (see again 1 Cor 15), until then we are in the same situation as Paul above in Romans 7, and Galatians 5. 

Would be curious as to your thoughts about the Lutheran perspective on Purgatory.

Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life


I'm Catholic... Not exactly the best example.


But having purgatory IMHO defeats the purpose of Christ paying for our sins.


Luke 23:43

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Did the criminal go to purgatory after he died?

I don't think so

There are plenty of scriptures in the Bible about Hell.

There are also scriptures about Heaven.

However, I've never read anything about purgatory.

^{Corinthians
11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ.12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—13the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and
the fire will test what sort of work each has done.
14If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward.15If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.}
Padre Pio was a stigmatist  and a mystic of the church.
His journal and letter to his spiritual advisor mentions the existence of purgatory.
Anyone who met Padre Pio believed that he had a direct connection with
the afterlife. When asked about a dead relative or friend, it was
fascinating the good Padre always had an answer.
Padre Pio said of Heaven: "Heaven is total joy, continuous joy. We will be constantly thanking God. It is
useless to try to figure out exactly what heaven is like, because we
can’t understand it. But when the veil of this life is taken off, we
will understand things in a different way." 

" . . . at night when I close my eyes the veil is lifted and I see paradise open up before me: and gladdened by this vision I sleep with a
smile of sweet beatitude on my lips and a perfectly tranquil
countenance . . . " 


"More souls of the dead from Purgatory than of the living climb this mountain to attend my Masses and seek my prayers."

"The souls in Purgatory pray for us, and their prayers are even more effective than ours, because they are accompanied by their
suffering. So, let's pray for them, and let's pray them to pray for us."
"You will be surprised to find in Paradise souls you never expected to be there."
"Most of the saved pass through Purgatory before arriving at the fullness of beatitude."
Gerardo De Caro had long conversations with Padre Pio in 1943. In his written notes, he testifies:
"Padre Pio had an exact knowledge of the state of a soul after death,
including the duration of the pain until it reached total purification."


Through the passion and death of Christ heaven which was closed due to Adam and Eve became open again. In order to enter heave we must be pure and perfect and that purification is through fire. Purgatory is a suffering that purifies. There is a difference between having your sins forgiven, and atoning for them to the point of purification. We will all be tested in fire.

Zacharia 13:9 mentioned it
And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will
say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
1 Peter 1-7
So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in
praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.....                        
And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore,
confirm, strengthen, and establish you.            


Forgive me if all these have been posted previously.

I'll respectively disagree that there is an additional test needed.   The New Testament is clear that Christ's death and Resurrection has paid in full for our sins, and no further payment or purification is required.  From some classic verses like John 3:16, to several of the Passion passages, and later the various Epistles proclaiming "Sola Gratia" in that it is by Grace we have been saved, not through our own works.  (Eph 2:8).  


Some additional FAQ material from the LCMS with some good scripture mentioning that immediately upon death, the soul enters either heaven or hell.


http://www.lcms.org/faqs/doctrine#die

TWIRE,

Interesting thread.  I enjoyed seeing your thought process as you make your case about the existence of Purgatory.

Question:  How do you interpret John 20:17?

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. KJV

I have always wondered where Jesus was during this time.  It seems to me that if a person buys into the notion of Purgatory that this verse is relevant to the thought process.

Bob-

I'm not TWIRE, but if I may offer a reply...


If you read all of John 20, we see it is the story of Christ appearing to Mary Magdalene on the first Easter Sunday.   Jesus was there, in the garden at the tomb after he had risen from the dead.  Later that day Christ appeared to the disciples.  It was some time after that that Christ finally ascends into Heaven and no longer appears on the Earth.

Note verse 30:



It clearly states Jesus was in the presence of his disciples...i.e. hear on Earth, and not in some in-between location, prior to his ascension.   And importantly, vs. 31 states once again that believing in Jesus is the key to eternal life.

Thank you jblomenberg16 for the thoughtful reply.  I should have phrased my question better.  Luke 23:42,43 "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise".

Back to John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God"."

So, Jesus was crucified on Friday.  He told the thief that they would be in paradise on that day.  On Sunday, Jesus told Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to his Father.   My question (hopefully better stated):  where was Jesus during the time between crucifixion and resurrection?

I bring this up on a thread regarding Purgatory because it seems relevant to the discussion.

Ah, thank you for clarifying, I mis-understood the question.  I'll do a little digging and gather my thoughts and reply.

After nearly three pages of scripture, my two posts exhibiting the beliefs of the early Church as written about by the Church fathers now qualifies as 'deferr[ing] to non-canonical documents.' That's rich. So your interpretation IS more valid than those of the Church fathers. I get it. I made no attack on protestantism in that last post.
In disagree with that interpretation. I've posted Paul in this thread already - since you seem intent on an either/or slant to your belief. Not an attack. A statement of fact.

You don't get to pick and choose. That's what they mean when the phrase 'cafeteria Catholic' is thrown about.

Luke 23 and the 'good thief' are not really even cogent to the argument for purgatory, but for the sake of discussion let's say the 'good thief' did not die in a state of forgiveness for grave or venial sin. He cannot enter heaven until he is pure. The scripture says so. After death consumes the human body, there is no linear measure of time so there is no 'length of time' associated with the process. Would he have been cleansed. Yes.

In my opinion, hanging next to Jesus Christ, making a profession of faith and forgiveness at the moment of death...well, I cannot imagine that a human could be anymore purified at that point.

Except for the last three pages of stuff. As with most posts, reading and understanding are two different processes and really neither has anything to do with posting your predetermined suppositions.

Tough one, I'll admit. And yes, it is relevant. I

https://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.