Our Catholic fathers

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Our Catholic fathers

Posted: 9/15/2016 4:04:54 PM EDT

At the abrupt conclusion of our last
discussion, two important discussion points, well... at least two,
lulz...were still hanging in the air. I would like to get back to
those subjects in a couple of new threads.

This first one involves a reference
made to 'our Catholic fathers.' And this description was agreed upon
by several folks stating that the Church fathers were Catholic. My
contention, unexpounded before the moderatus interuptus was that the
early Church was Catholic in belief, practice and worship.

Below I will post a few paragraphs from
Justin Martyrs Apologies as an example that Catholic thought was the
norm, the practice, and the worship style of the nascent church.

from THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN MARTYR

Administration of the Sacraments

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced
and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those
who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer
hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized
[illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may
be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works
also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so
that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation.

I divided this section into two
sections although the original is a single paragraph. This first
paragraph is interesting for a variety of points. I think it defines
a believer as one who has 'assented to out teaching' and has been
'baptized [illuminated].' Secondly, Justin speaks of 'prayers in
common.' I do not think this is a definitive reference to rote
prayer, but I do think it is indicative of form or format in the
practice of prayer and worship. Lastly, he echoes James by the words
'counted worthy... by our works.' Let's be clear. I don't think,
Catholicism does not think, that we are saved by works. But by
reference to the beginning of this subdivided paragraph, I believe
that our 'works' are one way that we have 'assented' to the teaching
of Christ. I think that is what Justin is referring to.

Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss.

We call this the Rite of Peace, usually
a handshake these days.

There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread
and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise
and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son
and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for
our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And
when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people
present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers
in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president
has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent,
those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to
partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the
thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry
away a portion.

This is a very brief exposition of what
is referred to as the Liturgy of the Eucharist in the Catholic mass.
A little more detail is provided in subsequent paragraphs.

Posted: 9/15/2016 4:08:29 PM EDT

[#1]

Of the Eucharist

And this food is called among us Eucharistia [the Eucharist],
of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that
the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the
washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and
who is so living as Christ has enjoined.

This section, as well, is a single
paragraph in the original document, but I have divided it for the
sake of discussion. The believer is defined further as one who
believes what he is taught by the Church, the inference being an
emphasis on oral/verbal teaching. No mention yet of scripture is made
here -- not due to lack of use but because it was only one part of the deposit
of faith, and frankly a lesser part if for no other reason than lack of availability of the written word and a codified canon. Justin quotes scripture extensively earlier in this
document, so it was in use. Then there is the specific mention of baptismal
regeneration for the remission of sins. Clearly, the early church
believed in this concept.

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these;
but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made
flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation,
so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the
prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by
transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who
was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them,
which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was
enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given
thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My
body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and
given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to
them alone.

So did the early church believe in
transubstantiation? Case closed.

Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of
Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a
cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites
of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

I believe there are several other
mentions of pagan imitators in the apologies.

Posted: 9/15/2016 4:13:24 PM EDT

[#2]

Weekly Worship of the Christians

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these
things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep
together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the
Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy
Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the
country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles
or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits;

I think this is a telling description
of what we now call the Liturgy of the Word. Every week, BeNotAfraid
posts the weekly readings for Catholic mass (old testament, new
testament, gospel). These same readings are used at EVERY mass
celebrated throughout the whole world on a given Sunday (Malachi
1:11, Didache 14). And note that in a period of time (circa 155 AD)
prior to the canon of scripture being established, there is no way to
reference a 'memoir' or 'writing' as scripture, ii.e there was no
'Bible' as we know it today...yet.

...then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally
instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

This is called a homily or sometimes
referred to as a sermon for you heathens out there!

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said,
when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and
the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings,
according to his ability,

Eucharistic prayer. I think Catholics sometimes get a lot of grief for the postures assumed during Mass. For the uninitiated, a simple explanation. To listen, we sit. To pray, we stand or kneel.

and the people assent, saying Amen;

the great 'Amen'

and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of
that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a
portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and
willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is
deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and
those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and
those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in
a word takes care of all who are in need.

Collection

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly,
because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in
the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour
on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day
before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of
Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles
and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted
to you also for your consideration.

So answers the question, why Sunday?

Posted: 9/15/2016 5:33:10 PM EDT

[#3]

Well, I'm glad to see this continued. Define Catholic.

I can see how the first part on the Eucharist can be taken as baptismal regeneration, but I can also see how that is not even definitive in that paragraph. I can't say for sure that he believed and was expressing that view. I'd have to see more of his writings. I take it as you must be a believer, be regenerate,and be baptized. Washing could mean with the Holy Spirit. Or he may mean baptismal regeneration. I just am not convinced by that one quote.

Good write up though.

Posted: 9/15/2016 6:28:03 PM EDT

[#4]

Christian baptism

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God
when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem
to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded
and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be
able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with
fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and
fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and
are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves
regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the
universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they
then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be
born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter
into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have
sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the
prophet, as I wrote above;
he thus speaks: "Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your
doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and
plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, saith the
Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like
wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But
if ye refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of
the Lord hath spoken it."

And
for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at
our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our
parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked
training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and
of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and
may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there
is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of
his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who
leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this
name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if
any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless
madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn
these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name
of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name
of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about
Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

Posted: 9/18/2016 7:10:59 PM EDT

[#5]

??tag to read

Posted: 9/18/2016 10:09:56 PM EDT

[#6]

I'm gonna take the baptism part and divert, because I want to establish a definition. Baptismal regeneration. What exactly does that mean? If someone baptized you you are saved? Like the Spanish did to Indians in the 1400s? That you must be baptized to get to heaven? That you get saved the moment you are baptized? I'm not looking to argue, just define what it means in the RCC. Because some Protestant groups believe in this too. And I'm not sure it's the same definition.

Posted: 9/27/2016 7:37:18 AM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:
I'm gonna take the baptism part and divert, because I want to establish a definition. Baptismal regeneration. What exactly does that mean? If someone baptized you you are saved? Like the Spanish did to Indians in the 1400s? That you must be baptized to get to heaven? That you get saved the moment you are baptized? I'm not looking to argue, just define what it means in the RCC. Because some Protestant groups believe in this too. And I'm not sure it's the same definition.

View Quote

Everything you need to know about Baptism is written here, and explains much better than I could if I tried to answer your questions.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Our Catholic fathers

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