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Posted: 9/15/2016 10:20:00 AM EDT
[#1]
some say there is not free will, all actions good or evil are in Gods plan for mankind's salvation, pointing the way to him thru The Christ..
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Posted: 9/15/2016 10:40:16 AM EDT
[#2]
We live in a world corrupted by sin. God is omniscient and knows the beginning to the end. But in his love, we have free will. Even the angels had free will otherwise satan would not have been able to draw 1/3 of them from heaven. This world is also under satans dominion for now. Otherwise he would not have been able to offer it up to Jesus while he was in the wilderness. We can choose evil or goodness. I don't believe people who claim they had no choice but to sin. I believe that one day we will see that God's plan has been perfect. We try to make God into what we think he should be which is wrong.
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Posted: 9/15/2016 10:40:22 AM EDT
[#3]
The Earth is Satan and the fallen angel's domain. When Satan tempted Christ, he offered him all the kingdoms of the Earth, because they were his to offer. Bad stuff happens here, which is why we should want to be saved and under Jesus' protection. As a nation who has turned from God, I think things are going to be getting a lot worse for us.
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Posted: 9/15/2016 10:41:47 AM EDT
[#4]
I would recommend The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis.
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Posted: 9/15/2016 11:13:02 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We live in a world corrupted by sin. God is omniscient and knows the beginning to the end. But in his love, we have free will. Even the angels had free will otherwise satan would not have been able to draw 1/3 of them from heaven. This world is also under satans dominion for now. Otherwise he would not have been able to offer it up to Jesus while he was in the wilderness. We can choose evil or goodness. I don't believe people who claim they had no choice but to sin. I believe that one day we will see that God's plan has been perfect. We try to make God into what we think he should be which is wrong. The earth isn't under Satan. Mat 28:18. Jesus said ALL authority on heaven and on Earth has been given to Him. Care to show me whe He gave it up? That isn't to say demons and other beings aren't here at work. But Satan doesn't rule the Earth. |
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Posted: 9/15/2016 12:17:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The earth isn't under Satan. Mat 28:18. Jesus said ALL authority on heaven and on Earth has been given to Him. Care to show me whe He gave it up? That isn't to say demons and other beings aren't here at work. But Satan doesn't rule the Earth. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We live in a world corrupted by sin. God is omniscient and knows the beginning to the end. But in his love, we have free will. Even the angels had free will otherwise satan would not have been able to draw 1/3 of them from heaven. This world is also under satans dominion for now. Otherwise he would not have been able to offer it up to Jesus while he was in the wilderness. We can choose evil or goodness. I don't believe people who claim they had no choice but to sin. I believe that one day we will see that God's plan has been perfect. We try to make God into what we think he should be which is wrong. The earth isn't under Satan. Mat 28:18. Jesus said ALL authority on heaven and on Earth has been given to Him. Care to show me whe He gave it up? That isn't to say demons and other beings aren't here at work. But Satan doesn't rule the Earth. From Matthew chapter 4 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. How could he have offered them to Jesus if God did not allow him to have rule over this world. We are told numerous times in the NT that Satan is the prince of this world. I'm not saying he has control of believers, but he surely has a stronghold on unbelievers. Satan only has what God has let him have. in 2 Corinthians 4: 4 He is refereed to as the God of this world. I'm not saying he has ultimate authority over this world, but I am saying he has a lot of control over events and people which are designed to draw men from belief in the one true God. He is a deceiver and manipulator. |
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Posted: 9/15/2016 12:50:16 PM EDT
[#7]
MrKasab, I'm in pretty much the same place as you. I sit at a divide, unable/unwilling to not believe and at the same time unable to believe. Christians often say that God is in control and he has a plan. Do they really consider children being raped and dismembered to be part of that plan? It must be at least God's plan to allow that evil to exist. Since everything in the world is so intertwined where does his good plan end? Those evil people were shaped by events that took place years before their birth ( that were not necessarily evil), events that it would seem were part of the master plan.
Maybe it's all just our flawed perception of God. I don't know, I just don't know.......... |
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Posted: 9/15/2016 12:57:28 PM EDT
[#8]
He is referred to as "god " of this world. Not God. I can offer you The White House if I want. Doesn't mean I have the authority to give it to you. Satan is the god to unbelievers. But in the Bible , like in Job for instance, he had to have permission from God to do things. Mat 12v28-29 say that the Kingdom of God is at hand. And that the strong man is bound. Two choices here. Jesus is bound, or Satan. I believe that Jesus is ruling right now, seated at the right hand of His Father. Psalm 110:1 says" the Lord says to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemy's a footstool for your feet" bit of trivia here...that is the most quoted verse in the bible....
Isa 45:5 says "I am the lord there is no other, besides Me, there is no God" so the word god has to be used to mean something else. If you are a drug addict, the drugs are the god of your life. Same way if you are not a Christian, Satan is the god of your life. But Jesus is still the ruler of the world. |
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Posted: 9/15/2016 9:19:53 PM EDT
[#9]
OP, the answers you seek can be found.
You are blaming God. He is blameless. Read Psalm 18:30 |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 6:56:25 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Maybe a year ago, maybe less, within a month there were three news stories about babies being raped by grown men. Prior to this I always accepted that all things, no matter how bad, served some sort of purpose no matter how horrible. But when I saw these news stories I really couldn't wrap my head around this existing as part of God's plan. Prior when people would ask why a loving and all powerful god would allow such evil to happen I thought that if you accept that there is an all powerful god with the ability to stop evil, you have to accept the fact that maybe there was unspeakable evil that didn't happen because God stopped it before it happened. However, multiple babies being raped made me think, "If this is part of your plan, you really have to let me in on the details cause this is really fucked up." I get that we have free will, but it doesn't make sense within the context of an all powerful god. Free will isnt free will if it is known. I have trouble with the concept that everything we know is some huge cosmic accident, but in the same thought I have trouble accepting there is an all powerful and loving being overseeing us. I can accept the idea of an all powerful being(s) who no longer care about us, I can accept the idea of a less than perfect god (the gods of my ancestors seemed to have shortcomings), I can even accept the idea that we are just an alien petri dish. What I can no longer accept is that we live in a world where a child so young they cant even walk are raped while being overseen by a force that is all loving and all powerful. I post this not as an attack and not to troll, but because I really want an understanding. My struggle with faith isnt unique and I'm sure a few have already been through it before. The other day something really great happened and my first instinct was to thank God for it, then I wondered who I should really be thanking? I wish I had faith in a great god, I see it as a gift and am so thankful my son has it and likely my daughter too as she grows. We share a very similar mindset, if there is a god, I don't believe he cares about us at all. |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 7:48:55 AM EDT
[#11]
What is it about things that happen to children/babies that upset you so much? Because they're naive and innocent?
Do you feel the same disgust when mentally handicapped people are victims of violence? For that matter, where's all your sorrow for every innocent victim of violence? I don't think you believed in the first place. I don't think anyone who justifies their lack of belief because of "the children" is ever honest with themselves or others. |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 9:59:46 AM EDT
[#12]
Well for me it isn't just the children, they are just an easy example. There aren't enough pixels on this page to list all of the atrocities committed..
Perhaps it's easier to fault the OP and say he never believed than to explain how a God who loves humans can either plan or allow them to suffer at the hands of monsters. |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 10:08:53 AM EDT
[#13]
What about the fact that we all deserve to suffer and be punished, but thankfully God is so loving that He has a plan for saving me? And because of His Son, who knowing that He would suffer and be killed, chose to go through that so that I could spend eternity with Him? Even though I knowingly spit in His face and hated Him? Gotta consider that too.
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Posted: 9/16/2016 2:13:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Do those who accept Christ's sacrifice also deserve to die in heinous ways?
And those deaths were fore ordained before the world was formed even though God knew that they would love and worship him. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but I'd always assumed that the suffering and punishment we deserved was to be carried out in the next life. |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 2:15:25 PM EDT
[#15]
There's a reason Satan tempted Jesus before he went to the cross. He offered him the whole world if he would bow to him.
You can't offer what isn't yours. GOD is gracious and long suffering. Wishing none of his creations destruction. Evil will always exist. FYI, things like you described have been happening since the beginning of time. We just have the internet now to broadcast the info faster. Hope you find your faith because I would be lost without it. |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 2:33:42 PM EDT
[#16]
My tripping point is how a loving God, who knew everything that would ever happen from the beginning of time through the end, would create monsters like these. Let's assume they're hell-bound. Or, for arguments' sake, substitute in anyone who would be hell-bound.
God knew that a billion years ago. Yeah, yeah, "free will" and all that. But He knew way back then where their free will would lead them at the end, ultimately to eternal punishment. I would never have a child, KNOWING 100% that the child would be endlessly and excruciatingly tortured for all eternity. God knew. He knew a long, long time before they were born. He created them anyways. Why. Not much love for them, it seems. |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 2:33:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do those who accept Christ's sacrifice also deserve to die in heinous ways? And those deaths were fore ordained before the world was formed even though God knew that they would love and worship him. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but I'd always assumed that the suffering and punishment we deserved was to be carried out in the next life. Yes they do. And it is by the grace of God that we are able to be saved and be with Him. We all deserve hell. Christian and non Christian. Let me ask. Why do we not deserve hell? All but one of Jesus's disciples dies a horrible death. Many Christians were burned alive on post to light garden parties for Nero. What can you do to earn an easy life? Is the goal to die happy in your sleep or to glorify your creator? If I go out on skewered and on fire I only hope that I can be a witness to non believers that God is great. Now I have no wish to die that way, I'd rather die peacefully many years from now. But whenever it is, I hope I bear witness to the fact that God loves me. |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 3:42:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My tripping point is how a loving God, who knew everything that would ever happen from the beginning of time through the end, would create monsters like these. Let's assume they're hell-bound. Or, for arguments' sake, substitute in anyone who would be hell-bound. God knew that a billion years ago. Yeah, yeah, "free will" and all that. But He knew way back then where their free will would lead them at the end, ultimately to eternal punishment. I would never have a child, KNOWING 100% that the child would be endlessly and excruciatingly tortured for all eternity. God knew. He knew a long, long time before they were born. He created them anyways. Why. Not much love for them, it seems. |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 3:52:24 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure everyone goes to the lake of fire. All who are not saved go to hell, but more than one word is used for hell. I think some who are not saved go to the dung hill, eternal separation from God, physical and spiritual death. Others who are evil go to torture, the lake of fire. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My tripping point is how a loving God, who knew everything that would ever happen from the beginning of time through the end, would create monsters like these. Let's assume they're hell-bound. Or, for arguments' sake, substitute in anyone who would be hell-bound. God knew that a billion years ago. Yeah, yeah, "free will" and all that. But He knew way back then where their free will would lead them at the end, ultimately to eternal punishment. I would never have a child, KNOWING 100% that the child would be endlessly and excruciatingly tortured for all eternity. God knew. He knew a long, long time before they were born. He created them anyways. Why. Not much love for them, it seems. But still. He created them from nothing, which He didn't have to do, knowing before they existed that they were gonna be tossed in the dung pile or the lake of fire. It really doesn't change anything. |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 4:00:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But still. He created them from nothing, which He didn't have to do, knowing before they existed that they were gonna be tossed in the dung pile or the lake of fire. It really doesn't change anything. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: My tripping point is how a loving God, who knew everything that would ever happen from the beginning of time through the end, would create monsters like these. Let's assume they're hell-bound. Or, for arguments' sake, substitute in anyone who would be hell-bound. God knew that a billion years ago. Yeah, yeah, "free will" and all that. But He knew way back then where their free will would lead them at the end, ultimately to eternal punishment. I would never have a child, KNOWING 100% that the child would be endlessly and excruciatingly tortured for all eternity. God knew. He knew a long, long time before they were born. He created them anyways. Why. Not much love for them, it seems. But still. He created them from nothing, which He didn't have to do, knowing before they existed that they were gonna be tossed in the dung pile or the lake of fire. It really doesn't change anything. I think most people, if given the choice, would choose to live and die, rather than to have never existed. After all, pretty much everyone could end their physical existence today if they chose to, but very few will. |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 4:17:33 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My tripping point is how a loving God, who knew everything that would ever happen from the beginning of time through the end, would create monsters like these. Let's assume they're hell-bound. Or, for arguments' sake, substitute in anyone who would be hell-bound. God knew that a billion years ago. Yeah, yeah, "free will" and all that. But He knew way back then where their free will would lead them at the end, ultimately to eternal punishment. I would never have a child, KNOWING 100% that the child would be endlessly and excruciatingly tortured for all eternity. God knew. He knew a long, long time before they were born. He created them anyways. Why. Not much love for them, it seems. You are judging God. Is He supposed to suspend creation because He knows that people will be born who reject Him? He could have destroyed all mankind. There is great evil done on the earth by man. None of it is God's fault. There is a link below. Read it and explore the website. Hopefully it will lead you to understanding. http://www.gotquestions.org/God-create-doomed-people.html |
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Posted: 9/16/2016 7:02:43 PM EDT
[#22]
God gave us free will. We chose sin. What is God supposed to do when He sees that His creation has gone toxic?! If it were me, it would be like seeing something I made infested with maggots and I'd want to kill it with fire, because my love for my creation is far outweighed by my disgust by its corruption. God is better than that. He didn't just create us and say "have fun," he actually genuinely loves his creation. He loves us so much that he became one of us so that we can become pure and perfect again in eternity with Him. I once believed like you. God can change your heart if you ask Him.
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Posted: 9/16/2016 9:25:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
God gave us free will. We chose sin. What is God supposed to do when He sees that His creation has gone toxic?! If it were me, it would be like seeing something I made infested with maggots and I'd want to kill it with fire, because my love for my creation is far outweighed by my disgust by its corruption. God is better than that. He didn't just create us and say "have fun," he actually genuinely loves his creation. He loves us so much that he became one of us so that we can become pure and perfect again in eternity with Him. I once believed like you. God can change your heart if you ask Him. Agree |
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Posted: 9/17/2016 9:29:32 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The earth isn't under Satan. Mat 28:18. Jesus said ALL authority on heaven and on Earth has been given to Him. Care to show me whe He gave it up? That isn't to say demons and other beings aren't here at work. But Satan doesn't rule the Earth. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
We live in a world corrupted by sin. God is omniscient and knows the beginning to the end. But in his love, we have free will. Even the angels had free will otherwise satan would not have been able to draw 1/3 of them from heaven. This world is also under satans dominion for now. Otherwise he would not have been able to offer it up to Jesus while he was in the wilderness. We can choose evil or goodness. I don't believe people who claim they had no choice but to sin. I believe that one day we will see that God's plan has been perfect. We try to make God into what we think he should be which is wrong. The earth isn't under Satan. Mat 28:18. Jesus said ALL authority on heaven and on Earth has been given to Him. Care to show me whe He gave it up? That isn't to say demons and other beings aren't here at work. But Satan doesn't rule the Earth. Had a nice Bible study about this last night. Satan has not been cast out of the Kingdom yet, but he travels to and from on his own accord. During Christ's 40 days of temptation Satan tells Jesus that if he throws himself off the cliff and his Gods angels save him that he will give Christ all the Kingdoms of the world. The great deciever does not run the roost yet but has authority over those that he does decieve. OP, you couldn't have had much faith in the Lord of you're giving up based on the actions of man. |
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Posted: 9/17/2016 9:43:33 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure everyone goes to the lake of fire. All who are not saved go to hell, but more than one word is used for hell. I think some who are not saved go to the dung hill, eternal separation from God, physical and spiritual death. Others who are evil go to torture, the lake of fire. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My tripping point is how a loving God, who knew everything that would ever happen from the beginning of time through the end, would create monsters like these. Let's assume they're hell-bound. Or, for arguments' sake, substitute in anyone who would be hell-bound. God knew that a billion years ago. Yeah, yeah, "free will" and all that. But He knew way back then where their free will would lead them at the end, ultimately to eternal punishment. I would never have a child, KNOWING 100% that the child would be endlessly and excruciatingly tortured for all eternity. God knew. He knew a long, long time before they were born. He created them anyways. Why. Not much love for them, it seems. I don't think that is accurate, either. Those who believe will be risen and given eternal life. Those who reject the Lord or take the Mark of the Beast will essentially be made extinct. They will be destroyed. I believe those that are ignorant that survive the second coming will live as man amongst the believers that shall be resurrected during the 1000 years of Christ's reign, and they will be given the choice to choose eternal life or damnation during that time. Hell is not a place of tourture, it is the destruction of the breath of life and being. Basically, it's an extinction so that they never liev again. Also, we won't ascend into Heaven until after the resurrection, and even then it will be only for a moment. I'm getting ready to go cut firewood for a while, but I'll be glad to share the notes and scripture that supports this idea later this evening. |
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Posted: 9/17/2016 10:12:57 AM EDT
[#26]
Find your faith, OP. This world and the seeming unfairness at times is but a blink of an eye to what is to come when we leave here.
I struggled for a long time with the holocaust, the rape and murder of innocent children, etc. I had always heard that "God will give you nothing that you cannot handle". Then I would think about how babies get raped and murdered and I would become furious with God and my faith would wane. Then it slowly dawned, the innocents suffer for a short time on the balcony of paradise, to spend an eternity in perfect peace and joy. |
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Posted: 9/17/2016 10:32:33 AM EDT
[#27]
Who says that evil is a part of God's plan? I don't think that is found anywhere. Seemed God's plan was for man to enjoy the earth without sin, but Adam chose to sin, thus sin is passed down to man now.
God gives man a free will, otherwise we'd all be robots. He could have done that, but being praised and glorified by a bunch of pre-programmed robots probably doesn't count for much. It is much more worth while in my mind for many to overcome his natural and evil nature to achieve something higher, and voluntarily choose to worship God. There is plenty of evil in the world. In fact, just as things tend to disorder, I think that man's nature state is evil. I don't think that man has a good nature from birth. Think about it. It is much harder to be "good" and sacrifice or help others, than the be selfish and only care about self. OP, there are lots of bad things in the world, lots of evil, lots of wickedness. A consequence of sin. I don't understand it all, nor pretend to. I would hope that you would reconsider your decision. I know it is a very personal one. A relationship with a personal God who died for the sins of the world does not mean that there will not be bad things that happen, or terrible events, too terrible for our minds to even think about why this would happen to a child, such as those events you mention. But it does mean that on a personal level, you have faith and hope for a future with Christ in some place that is without sin. Best wishes OP. |
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Posted: 9/17/2016 11:50:43 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Maybe a year ago, maybe less, within a month there were three news stories about babies being raped by grown men. Prior to this I always accepted that all things, no matter how bad, served some sort of purpose no matter how horrible. But when I saw these news stories I really couldn't wrap my head around this existing as part of God's plan. Prior when people would ask why a loving and all powerful god would allow such evil to happen I thought that if you accept that there is an all powerful god with the ability to stop evil, you have to accept the fact that maybe there was unspeakable evil that didn't happen because God stopped it before it happened. However, multiple babies being raped made me think, "If this is part of your plan, you really have to let me in on the details cause this is really fucked up." I get that we have free will, but it doesn't make sense within the context of an all powerful god. Free will isnt free will if it is known. I have trouble with the concept that everything we know is some huge cosmic accident, but in the same thought I have trouble accepting there is an all powerful and loving being overseeing us. I can accept the idea of an all powerful being(s) who no longer care about us, I can accept the idea of a less than perfect god (the gods of my ancestors seemed to have shortcomings), I can even accept the idea that we are just an alien petri dish. What I can no longer accept is that we live in a world where a child so young they cant even walk are raped while being overseen by a force that is all loving and all powerful. I post this not as an attack and not to troll, but because I really want an understanding. My struggle with faith isnt unique and I'm sure a few have already been through it before. The other day something really great happened and my first instinct was to thank God for it, then I wondered who I should really be thanking? I wish I had faith in a great god, I see it as a gift and am so thankful my son has it and likely my daughter too as she grows. So if we are free to choose Gods way, and follow what is asked of us, we are also free to choose our will or the be influence to choose another will. Its always going to be lesser than what God wants for us. Then there is the absolute opposite of this goodness and it is pure evil. It will always be defeated by God and the pure goodness of God. Reconciling our minds around things so horrifically selfish as the rape of babies, or other crimes are examples of just how bad evil is. Its not part of God's plan for these things to happen. And just like your question it has a hateful ripple affect on all who hear of it. We dumb down the real question. We have a loving God. We can't reconcile our minds to evil so we turn to the loving God and say.. what GIVES? The real question would be to take a HARD look at ourselves and ask what things we are doing that allows this kind of evil to prevail. What earthly environment is happening that creates MONSTERS from men. Well evil is the absence of a loving God. But evil never gets questioned or blamed. We have to blame someone else and an all loving God is an easy target. The seed of doubt spreads and people give up. We are weak. I truly believe that if it were not for the loving hand of Jesus Christ that God would have done away with us. But Christ walked among us, loving us only as only our creator and teacher could. But we STILL don't get it. Don't give up on God. We aren't wired to understand such horrific things as rape of a child or anyone for that matter, or random murders, or wars, or MAN MADE disgusting acts. Someone with an appetite for these things are far from God. |
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Posted: 9/18/2016 12:44:48 PM EDT
[#29]
I genuinely find it interesting the different angles that people have for believing/not believing in the biblical god presented.
This picture has been a very primary role in comtemplating the existence of, or influence of, or manifestation of higher intelligence. So far, I find conflict with what may have 'created' this and what the bible represents. 
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Posted: 9/18/2016 8:36:18 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I genuinely find it interesting the different angles that people have for believing/not believing in the biblical god presented. This picture has been a very primary role in comtemplating the existence of, or influence of, or manifestation of higher intelligence. So far, I find conflict with what may have 'created' this and what the bible represents. http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/56539main_closer.jpg I believe the reason for your conflict is because you don't understand God as well as you think you do. I encourage you to not just read the bible but to study it. Then get on your knees and pray. God gives wisdom and understanding. There are many verses about it. http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Giving-Understanding He's given me everything I have. Including my life. He's saved me on more than one occasion. He's revealed things to me that only could come from Him. If you truly seek Him, you will find Him. Jeremiah 29:13 You shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart. |
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Posted: 9/20/2016 12:22:48 AM EDT
[#31]
OP, I have had many things challenge my faith, and I have heard of your struggles many times, and have shared in them. Please read the scriptures and find how much our sin breaks God's heart. Read Christ's warning to those who harm children:. "If anyone shall harm these little ones, it would be better that a millstone were tied around his neck and he be thrown at into the ocean" (my paraphrase). Our Lord is talking about hell here. Do you have the power to send someone to hell?
It sounds like sin breaks your heart as well. Would you give up your only son for crucifixion to fix the problem? Please don't make God your enemy. He will, eventually, make everything right. This fact is my raison d'etre. Otherwise, I would be tempted to make things right myself. 
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Posted: 9/20/2016 12:37:51 AM EDT
[#32]
Once you've seen what goes on behind the magicians curtain, the tricks no longer hold any wonder.
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Posted: 9/20/2016 12:51:00 AM EDT
[#33]
Op, if this is your first sticking point, you're not paying attention.
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Posted: 9/22/2016 12:03:11 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We share a very similar mindset, if there is a god, I don't believe he cares about us at all. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Maybe a year ago, maybe less, within a month there were three news stories about babies being raped by grown men. Prior to this I always accepted that all things, no matter how bad, served some sort of purpose no matter how horrible. But when I saw these news stories I really couldn't wrap my head around this existing as part of God's plan. Prior when people would ask why a loving and all powerful god would allow such evil to happen I thought that if you accept that there is an all powerful god with the ability to stop evil, you have to accept the fact that maybe there was unspeakable evil that didn't happen because God stopped it before it happened. However, multiple babies being raped made me think, "If this is part of your plan, you really have to let me in on the details cause this is really fucked up." I get that we have free will, but it doesn't make sense within the context of an all powerful god. Free will isnt free will if it is known. I have trouble with the concept that everything we know is some huge cosmic accident, but in the same thought I have trouble accepting there is an all powerful and loving being overseeing us. I can accept the idea of an all powerful being(s) who no longer care about us, I can accept the idea of a less than perfect god (the gods of my ancestors seemed to have shortcomings), I can even accept the idea that we are just an alien petri dish. What I can no longer accept is that we live in a world where a child so young they cant even walk are raped while being overseen by a force that is all loving and all powerful. I post this not as an attack and not to troll, but because I really want an understanding. My struggle with faith isnt unique and I'm sure a few have already been through it before. The other day something really great happened and my first instinct was to thank God for it, then I wondered who I should really be thanking? I wish I had faith in a great god, I see it as a gift and am so thankful my son has it and likely my daughter too as she grows. We share a very similar mindset, if there is a god, I don't believe he cares about us at all. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 2:29:23 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I genuinely find it interesting the different angles that people have for believing/not believing in the biblical god presented. This picture has been a very primary role in comtemplating the existence of, or influence of, or manifestation of higher intelligence. So far, I find conflict with what may have 'created' this and what the bible represents. http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/56539main_closer.jpg He's still the god of all that. If aliens would land here tomorrow I'd try to teach them about Jesus. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 9:22:10 AM EDT
[#36]
Read, "The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis.
ETA: OP, I was an atheist for about last 6 or 8 years and recently opened my heart and mind back up to God. One of my hang ups was exactly what you have stated. Here's what I got out of The Problem of Pain. The ultimate human sin, is Pride. I don't believe in the literal story of the fall as it's laid out in the bible, I think that's more of a parable. But the basic premise is that Eve and Adam decided for themselves that they knew better than God, and that Pride is what caused Man to turn from God and fall into sin. Think about it, every sin we commit essentially comes down to Pride. Whatever sin we commit goes against what God knows is good for us, but in our arrogance we do the opposite because we think we know better. Like the kid who who sticks a penny in the light socket despite being told not to by his parents. So all these children being maimed and butchered, that's not God's doing. It's man refusing to love one another the way God said to because they think they're justified in their actions for whatever reasons they tell themselves. God could come down and intervene, and stop it from happening. He has that power to work miracles, but he built this universe with certain rules to the game. It's like playing checkers with a kid, if you play by the rules as they're set, the kid will always lose. You can change the rules so you don't hurt the kids feelings and let him win, but then you aren't really playing the game right, and his victory is a hollow one. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 10:59:09 AM EDT
[#37]
God also has a "permissive will"....He allows things to happen because He has given us a free-will. That does not mean He wants or approves of evil actions, but He did desire "automatons" who were required to obey and worship Him. We live in a fallen world and we have fallen natures...this was not God's original desire since He created us perfectly and in paradise....you are seeing the consequences of Original Sin.
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Posted: 12/6/2016 6:11:10 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I genuinely find it interesting the different angles that people have for believing/not believing in the biblical god presented. This picture has been a very primary role in comtemplating the existence of, or influence of, or manifestation of higher intelligence. So far, I find conflict with what may have 'created' this and what the bible represents. http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/56539main_closer.jpg The Bible actually makes the most sense.  Digital Physics Argument for God's Existence |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 6:23:03 PM EDT
[#39]
OP didn't read his Bible when he "believed" before.
He must've missed the parts about infant sacrifice. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 6:41:57 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Maybe a year ago, maybe less, within a month there were three news stories about babies being raped by grown men. Prior to this I always accepted that all things, no matter how bad, served some sort of purpose no matter how horrible. But when I saw these news stories I really couldn't wrap my head around this existing as part of God's plan. Prior when people would ask why a loving and all powerful god would allow such evil to happen I thought that if you accept that there is an all powerful god with the ability to stop evil, you have to accept the fact that maybe there was unspeakable evil that didn't happen because God stopped it before it happened. However, multiple babies being raped made me think, "If this is part of your plan, you really have to let me in on the details cause this is really fucked up." I get that we have free will, but it doesn't make sense within the context of an all powerful god. Free will isnt free will if it is known. I have trouble with the concept that everything we know is some huge cosmic accident, but in the same thought I have trouble accepting there is an all powerful and loving being overseeing us. I can accept the idea of an all powerful being(s) who no longer care about us, I can accept the idea of a less than perfect god (the gods of my ancestors seemed to have shortcomings), I can even accept the idea that we are just an alien petri dish. What I can no longer accept is that we live in a world where a child so young they cant even walk are raped while being overseen by a force that is all loving and all powerful. I post this not as an attack and not to troll, but because I really want an understanding. My struggle with faith isnt unique and I'm sure a few have already been through it before. The other day something really great happened and my first instinct was to thank God for it, then I wondered who I should really be thanking? I wish I had faith in a great god, I see it as a gift and am so thankful my son has it and likely my daughter too as she grows. People are running from religion like never before. They are not against good morale behavior, they are against the hypocrisy. Christianity itself totally ignores the horrible things in the bible and most followers are fine with that. I am not, I found it did nothing for me after years of struggles. OP, really read the book and don't look back. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 6:49:56 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People are running from religion like never before. They are not against good morale behavior, they are against the hypocrisy. Christianity itself totally ignores the horrible things in the bible and most followers are fine with that. I am not, I found it did nothing for me after years of struggles. OP, really read the book and don't look back. Ok, out with it. Let's hear the typical anti-God arguments.... |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 8:35:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok, out with it. Let's hear the typical anti-God arguments.... Not in this forum. I posted using "active topics". I need to watch what forum that topics are in a bit more closely. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 8:42:20 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not in this forum. I posted using "active topics". I need to watch what forum that topics are in a bit more closely. Nonetheless you posted a false accusation. You always want to jump in religious threads and make only the God of the Bible out to be a moral monster. It's obvious it has less to do with God and more to do with you. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 8:50:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Maybe a year ago, maybe less, within a month there were three news stories about babies being raped by grown men. Prior to this I always accepted that all things, no matter how bad, served some sort of purpose no matter how horrible. But when I saw these news stories I really couldn't wrap my head around this existing as part of God's plan. Prior when people would ask why a loving and all powerful god would allow such evil to happen I thought that if you accept that there is an all powerful god with the ability to stop evil, you have to accept the fact that maybe there was unspeakable evil that didn't happen because God stopped it before it happened. However, multiple babies being raped made me think, "If this is part of your plan, you really have to let me in on the details cause this is really fucked up." I get that we have free will, but it doesn't make sense within the context of an all powerful god. Free will isnt free will if it is known. I have trouble with the concept that everything we know is some huge cosmic accident, but in the same thought I have trouble accepting there is an all powerful and loving being overseeing us. I can accept the idea of an all powerful being(s) who no longer care about us, I can accept the idea of a less than perfect god (the gods of my ancestors seemed to have shortcomings), I can even accept the idea that we are just an alien petri dish. What I can no longer accept is that we live in a world where a child so young they cant even walk are raped while being overseen by a force that is all loving and all powerful. I post this not as an attack and not to troll, but because I really want an understanding. My struggle with faith isnt unique and I'm sure a few have already been through it before. The other day something really great happened and my first instinct was to thank God for it, then I wondered who I should really be thanking? I wish I had faith in a great god, I see it as a gift and am so thankful my son has it and likely my daughter too as she grows. As for the problem of pain:  The Loud Absence: Where is God in Suffering? | John Lennox at Harvard Medical School |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 9:21:32 PM EDT
[#45]
We agree on this...however I'd choose The broccoli. I prefer it to ice cream.
I'm weird that way. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 9:39:50 PM EDT
[#46]
So, people do bad things to other people. I don't understand why it's allowed, but clearly it is. Free will, this is all a separating test that in the larger scheme means little, whatever.
FWIW, I was left in the crib alone as an infant to cry/scream/etc., and then through childhood and adolescence dealt with physical and emotional abuse -- bad stuff, burned with cigarettes (deliberate burns between the fingers are not easily seen), head through drywall, locked in the dark basement as a small child, beaten with hands, then belts, sticks, and finally boards that broke over me, mocked, belittled, taunted, threatened. The emotional stuff became a war in which I gave as good as I got, and the physical abuse stopped when I was big enough to stop it physically. Life was not great. I turned away from God at one point, but later as an adult came to belief for personal reasons (they are always personal). But I believe in God. I also a few years ago forgave the person responsible. Mental illness is a terrible thing. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 10:03:45 PM EDT
[#47]
I admire you, without knowing you for what you posted. 1 Peter, among others, deals with this. You are a greater person than many, and this shows by your faith and ability to forgive.
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Posted: 12/6/2016 11:10:58 PM EDT
[#48]
The problem is your understanding of the story behind the whole thing.
Adam and Eve were provided a good situation to live but were given rules to live within. Similar to us today: be a law abiding citizen and we get the freedoms and privileges of a United States citizen. Break the rules and you loose those rights and freedoms. In A&Es case they were kicked out of paradise and told they would have to make it on their own. The curse of the original sin is like your kid not obeying the rules at home so you kick them out to make it on their own. Somehow he/she will make it or break it under the harsh conditions of the real world yet will always remember how good they had it at home had they not screwed up. That is basically what God did and we have been on our own to govern ourselves eversince. And since man is far from perfect, many eveil things happen. In a nutshell, A&E chose to obey satan instead of God, so God said fine; get out and govern yourselves see how it works out for you. The curse of the original is we've been left to our own devices to realize we need God. Been governing ourselves for thousands of years so far and its been nothing but fail after fail. Whatever evils happen in this world is a direct result of mans doing and satans influence. Natural consequences so to speak. |
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Posted: 12/6/2016 11:26:12 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
some say there is not free will, all actions good or evil are in Gods plan for mankind's salvation, pointing the way to him thru The Christ.. 2 |
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Posted: 12/7/2016 9:23:14 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
some say there is not free will, all actions good or evil are in Gods plan for mankind's salvation, pointing the way to him thru The Christ.. 2 This is false. Without free will, we'd have never fallen in the first place. If there is no free will, we didn't fall. God would have had to have pushed us away and then came up with a plan for salvation. That is totally illogical. |
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