User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/21/2016 5:53:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Find a new pastor. Living a good life and believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior is what counts. Is going to church important, sure, but only because you get to hear the Word of God more and it will help you live a better life.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/21/2016 6:07:35 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Find a new pastor. Living a good life and believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior is what counts. Is going to church important, sure, but only because you get to hear the Word of God more and it will help you live a better life. The Enemy and his minions believe in Jesus Christ. Would you say that they're going to Heaven?? Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as your Savior is what gets you into Heaven, yes?? "Living a good life"?? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/21/2016 6:39:54 PM EDT
[#3]
What if you were stranded on an island for the rest of your life alone? Are you damned then because there is no church? What about people right after Christ? Wasn't a church everywhere then. Heb 13:17 tells that we should go to Church and submit to the elders..but it's not a requirement.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/21/2016 7:18:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Enemy and his minions believe in Jesus Christ. Would you say that they're going to Heaven?? Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as your Savior is what gets you into Heaven, yes?? "Living a good life"?? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Find a new pastor. Living a good life and believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior is what counts. Is going to church important, sure, but only because you get to hear the Word of God more and it will help you live a better life. The Enemy and his minions believe in Jesus Christ. Would you say that they're going to Heaven?? Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as your Savior is what gets you into Heaven, yes?? "Living a good life"?? Deeds good or bad do not gain us heaven. Easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than a rich man To enter the gates of heaven. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/21/2016 7:48:48 PM EDT
[#5]
Going to church will not get you into Heaven.
Going to church will not keep you out of Hell. In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, both Lazarus and Abraham are said to be in Heaven. Neither one went to church. Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." He said nothing about church attendance as a prerequisite to salvation. Most believers will seek out a fellowship of believers, and I believe that all believers would benefit from such a fellowship. Going to church and being at least theoretically accountable to fellow believers makes it more likely for me to avoid sin. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/21/2016 9:24:46 PM EDT
[#6]
The church is what is in your heart not a building. You go to a building to be with like minded people but going there gets you no "points".
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/21/2016 10:05:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Enemy and his minions believe in Jesus Christ. Would you say that they're going to Heaven?? Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as your Savior is what gets you into Heaven, yes?? "Living a good life"?? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Find a new pastor. Living a good life and believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior is what counts. Is going to church important, sure, but only because you get to hear the Word of God more and it will help you live a better life. The Enemy and his minions believe in Jesus Christ. Would you say that they're going to Heaven?? Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as your Savior is what gets you into Heaven, yes?? "Living a good life"?? I know Jesus as my savior. That's what Jesus said it takes to be in Heaven. The guy in this artical is saying that's not enough. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/21/2016 10:36:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know Jesus as my savior. That's what Jesus said it takes to be in Heaven. The guy in this artical is saying that's not enough. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Find a new pastor. Living a good life and believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior is what counts. Is going to church important, sure, but only because you get to hear the Word of God more and it will help you live a better life. The Enemy and his minions believe in Jesus Christ. Would you say that they're going to Heaven?? Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as your Savior is what gets you into Heaven, yes?? "Living a good life"?? I know Jesus as my savior. That's what Jesus said it takes to be in Heaven. The guy in this artical is saying that's not enough. The guy in the article is saying that the Church (which is the whole body of believers in Heaven and Earth) is the same thing as a church (the building at 4th and Main where the Methodists gather at 10 AM every Sunday). The Good News of salvation is simple, and is not contained in that article. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 8:45:40 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Going to church will not get you into Heaven. Going to church will not keep you out of Hell. In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, both Lazarus and Abraham are said to be in Heaven. Neither one went to church. Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." He said nothing about church attendance as a prerequisite to salvation. Most believers will seek out a fellowship of believers, and I believe that all believers would benefit from such a fellowship. Going to church and being at least theoretically accountable to fellow believers makes it more likely for me to avoid sin. This |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 9:51:21 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Deeds good or bad do not gain us heaven. Easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than a rich man To enter the gates of heaven. In the verses preceding what you paraphrased, above, when the young man who kept the commandments asked what else he needed to do to get to heaven, Jesus commanded him to perform three deeds: 1.) Sell everything you have 2.) Give to the poor 3.) Come follow Me (i.e. join my community/Church) Faith demands works. Works are an expression of and serve to build our faith. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 10:26:50 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: The pastor at the church I attend said that if you are not a active member of a church you are not going to heaven. What do you think Scripture says about this?https://www.crossroadschristian.org/blogs/blog/117658885-if-you-don-t-go-to-church-can-you-still-go-to-heaven#.Vz8zox8OS44.facebook |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 10:46:04 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The guy in the article is saying that the Church (which is the whole body of believers in Heaven and Earth) is the same thing as a church (the building at 4th and Main where the Methodists gather at 10 AM every Sunday). The Good News of salvation is simple, and is not contained in that article. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Find a new pastor. Living a good life and believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior is what counts. Is going to church important, sure, but only because you get to hear the Word of God more and it will help you live a better life. The Enemy and his minions believe in Jesus Christ. Would you say that they're going to Heaven?? Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as your Savior is what gets you into Heaven, yes?? "Living a good life"?? I know Jesus as my savior. That's what Jesus said it takes to be in Heaven. The guy in this artical is saying that's not enough. The guy in the article is saying that the Church (which is the whole body of believers in Heaven and Earth) is the same thing as a church (the building at 4th and Main where the Methodists gather at 10 AM every Sunday). The Good News of salvation is simple, and is not contained in that article. Do you have an opinion as to what the authors motivation is for writing this? Anyone else? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 1:59:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the verses preceding what you paraphrased, above, when the young man who kept the commandments asked what else he needed to do to get to heaven, Jesus commanded him to perform three deeds: 1.) Sell everything you have 2.) Give to the poor 3.) Come follow Me (i.e. join my community/Church) Faith demands works. Works are an expression of and serve to build our faith. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Deeds good or bad do not gain us heaven. Easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than a rich man To enter the gates of heaven. In the verses preceding what you paraphrased, above, when the young man who kept the commandments asked what else he needed to do to get to heaven, Jesus commanded him to perform three deeds: 1.) Sell everything you have 2.) Give to the poor 3.) Come follow Me (i.e. join my community/Church) Faith demands works. Works are an expression of and serve to build our faith. Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through FAITH in Jesus Christ, to all and ON ALL WHO BELIEVE. For there is no difference; 23 FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD, 24 being JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the JUSTIFIER OF THE ONE WHO HAS FAITH IN JESUS. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but BY THE LAW OF FAITH. 28 Therefore we conclude that A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH APART FROM THE DEEDS OF THE LAW. Also in Galatians: Galatians 3:10: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith.” 12 YET THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH, but "the man who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit THROUGH FAITH. And IF faith demanded works, then Paul couldn't write this: Romans 4:2 For IF Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, the wages are NOT COUNTED AS GRACE but as debt. 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK BUT BELIEVES ON HIM who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness APART from works. Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, THROUGH the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. And before you type "James 2!" Read this. <o:p></o:p> |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 2:05:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: The pastor at the church I attend said that if you are not a active member of a church you are not going to heaven. What do you think Scripture says about this?https://www.crossroadschristian.org/blogs/blog/117658885-if-you-don-t-go-to-church-can-you-still-go-to-heaven#.Vz8zox8OS44.facebook Run from this church; they don't understand the gospel (the Bible does teach eternal security, they cite Hebrews 6:4-8 as a proof that it does not, but that's out-of-context, see John 10:27-29 and Ephesians 1:13-14) ETA: one of the churches on this map might be a better choice. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 2:46:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryIt's not about earning salvation. If your faith doesn't change you and you aren't driven into action, you don't have faith to begin with. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 3:01:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have an opinion as to what the authors motivation is for writing this? Anyone else? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Find a new pastor. Living a good life and believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior is what counts. Is going to church important, sure, but only because you get to hear the Word of God more and it will help you live a better life. The Enemy and his minions believe in Jesus Christ. Would you say that they're going to Heaven?? Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as your Savior is what gets you into Heaven, yes?? "Living a good life"?? I know Jesus as my savior. That's what Jesus said it takes to be in Heaven. The guy in this artical is saying that's not enough. The guy in the article is saying that the Church (which is the whole body of believers in Heaven and Earth) is the same thing as a church (the building at 4th and Main where the Methodists gather at 10 AM every Sunday). The Good News of salvation is simple, and is not contained in that article. Do you have an opinion as to what the authors motivation is for writing this? Anyone else? On its face, the purpose is to bring more people to church. The stated motive is to increase the number of people who will go to Heaven. I suspect that the actual motive is to bring more people to the author's church, for the consequent benefits to the institution and the author. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 3:34:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not about earning salvation. If your faith doesn't change you and you aren't driven into action, you don't have faith to begin with. Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not about earning salvation. If your faith doesn't change you and you aren't driven into action, you don't have faith to begin with. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 3:37:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which is saying that if you don't work, you don't have faith, which is to say you don't have salvation. So yes, it's saying you must work to have salvation, which is to say you must earn it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's not about earning salvation. If your faith doesn't change you and you aren't driven into action, you don't have faith to begin with. No, it's saying if your faith does not manifest itself and result in real change, you don't have faith. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 3:48:56 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, it's saying if your faith does not manifest itself and result in real change, you don't have faith. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's not about earning salvation. If your faith doesn't change you and you aren't driven into action, you don't have faith to begin with. No, it's saying if your faith does not manifest itself and result in real change, you don't have faith. And you already made a case for works being a part of faith, which the Bible contradicts. Works can help faith grow, but faith without works is still faith, see James 2:26. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 4:38:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which is saying that if you don't work, you don't have faith, which is to say you don't have salvation. So yes, it's saying you must work to have salvation, which is to say you must earn it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's not about earning salvation. If your faith doesn't change you and you aren't driven into action, you don't have faith to begin with. It is saying that salvation produces works, not that works produce salvation. If I demonstrated that all Republicans own guns, you would presumably draw the insupportable conclusion that one must own a gun to be a Republican. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 5:55:57 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is saying that salvation produces works, not that works produce salvation. If I demonstrated that all Republicans own guns, you would presumably draw the insupportable conclusion that one must own a gun to be a Republican. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's not about earning salvation. If your faith doesn't change you and you aren't driven into action, you don't have faith to begin with. It is saying that salvation produces works, not that works produce salvation. If I demonstrated that all Republicans own guns, you would presumably draw the insupportable conclusion that one must own a gun to be a Republican. Again, if salvation automatically produces works, then how can Paul write Romans 4:2-8, 1 Corinthians 3:15, and Ephesians 2:8-9? How could James write his letter encouraging "brethren" to work? The issue isn't that people work after they have faith, it's what people say when people who say they have faith don't produce their idea of what works are necessary. Not trying to argue, but there's a lot of bad, unbiblical doctrine being thrown around by some very popular people. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 7:05:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know Jesus as my savior. That's what Jesus said it takes to be in Heaven. The guy in this artical is saying that's not enough. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Find a new pastor. Living a good life and believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior is what counts. Is going to church important, sure, but only because you get to hear the Word of God more and it will help you live a better life. The Enemy and his minions believe in Jesus Christ. Would you say that they're going to Heaven?? Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as your Savior is what gets you into Heaven, yes?? "Living a good life"?? I know Jesus as my savior. That's what Jesus said it takes to be in Heaven. The guy in this artical is saying that's not enough. Well the Bible says he's wrong. You know what's right, you posted it above. Where'd you get that information? Where'd that pastor get his? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 7:06:37 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The guy in the article is saying that the Church (which is the whole body of believers in Heaven and Earth) is the same thing as a church (the building at 4th and Main where the Methodists gather at 10 AM every Sunday). The Good News of salvation is simple, and is not contained in that article. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Find a new pastor. Living a good life and believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior is what counts. Is going to church important, sure, but only because you get to hear the Word of God more and it will help you live a better life. The Enemy and his minions believe in Jesus Christ. Would you say that they're going to Heaven?? Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as your Savior is what gets you into Heaven, yes?? "Living a good life"?? I know Jesus as my savior. That's what Jesus said it takes to be in Heaven. The guy in this artical is saying that's not enough. The guy in the article is saying that the Church (which is the whole body of believers in Heaven and Earth) is the same thing as a church (the building at 4th and Main where the Methodists gather at 10 AM every Sunday). The Good News of salvation is simple, and is not contained in that article. Nicely put! |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 9:13:48 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah that article is bunk. None of the verses he cites says that going to church or being a member of one, according to their rules, is a requirement for eternal life; that's mixing grace and works, which the Bible says is impossible (Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9). Now the church isn't a group of people that meet every Sunday in a building that have by-laws and requirements for membership; it's all those who believe in Christ and have been baptized by the Holy Spirit and have been born again. Run from this church; they don't understand the gospel (the Bible does teach eternal security, they cite Hebrews 6:4-8 as a proof that it does not, but that's out-of-context, see John 10:27-29 and Ephesians 1:13-14) ETA: one of the churches on this map might be a better choice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The pastor at the church I attend said that if you are not a active member of a church you are not going to heaven. What do you think Scripture says about this?https://www.crossroadschristian.org/blogs/blog/117658885-if-you-don-t-go-to-church-can-you-still-go-to-heaven#.Vz8zox8OS44.facebook Run from this church; they don't understand the gospel (the Bible does teach eternal security, they cite Hebrews 6:4-8 as a proof that it does not, but that's out-of-context, see John 10:27-29 and Ephesians 1:13-14) ETA: one of the churches on this map might be a better choice. Thank you. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/22/2016 10:34:24 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is saying John 6:64 is in reference to Judas, who produced works so well that the other disciples didn't suspect it was him that would betray Christ (Matthew 26:21-22). If stealing from the colection is your idea of producing works so well, I can see why you don't like works. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/23/2016 6:26:38 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If stealing from the colection is your idea of producing works so well, I can see why you don't like works. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It is saying John 6:64 is in reference to Judas, who produced works so well that the other disciples didn't suspect it was him that would betray Christ (Matthew 26:21-22). If stealing from the colection is your idea of producing works so well, I can see why you don't like works. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/24/2016 8:38:04 AM EDT
[#27]
As a Catholic it is part of the Big 10. Specifically number 1 and number 3.
You shall have no other God's before me, Keep HOLY the Sabbath day; For Catholics that is Sunday in celebration of the resurrection. It fulfills the three precepts of the CCC and really is not an option. The first precept ("You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor") requires the faithful to sanctify the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord as well as the principal liturgical feasts honoring the Mysteries of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints; in the first place, by participating in the Eucharistic celebration, in which the Christian community is gathered, and by resting from those works and activities which could impede such a sanctification of these days. The second precept ("You shall confess your sins at least once a year") ensures preparation for the Eucharist by the reception of the sacrament of reconciliation, which continues Baptism's work of conversion and forgiveness. The third precept ("You shall receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the Easter season") guarantees as a minimum the reception of the Lord's Body and Blood in connection with the Paschal feasts, the origin and center of the Christian liturgy. (CCC 2042) The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass." "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day.” The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin. (CCC. 2180 and 2181) As a faith community we share in formation to know, love and server the Lord. In part by attending mass. It's not about getting something out of it. It's about consciously giving the first fruits of each week to God and recognizing his divinity. That being said... are there pew warmers. Those who go and as soon as they leave forget they are Christian. Yes. Do sinners go to mass? Indeed!!! Who needs to be their more than a sinner. Can we judge? No. Only The Divine Heart knows our efforts to keep His commands. Will ya BURN if you don't go. I DON'T KNOW. But as our Lord said in the desert... Luke 4: 12. Do not put your Lord Our God to the test. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/24/2016 10:03:23 AM EDT
[#28]
I didn't see that the pastor actually said that not attending church equaled out to not being saved. He seemed to be encouraging being in a church family, and the reasons for that, which I agree with. Again I may have missed it, but I didn't see where he said it
However, I think this is bunk Don’t let the devil or anyone else try to convince you to divert and devote your time, talents and treasures anyplace else other than the church. That’s not only an infernal mistake, it’s an eternal one. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/24/2016 10:10:11 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't see that the pastor actually said that not attending church equaled out to not being saved. He seemed to be encouraging being in a church family, and the reasons for that, which I agree with. Again I may have missed it, but I didn't see where he said it However, I think this is bunk Don’t let the devil or anyone else try to convince you to divert and devote your time, talents and treasures anyplace else other than the church. That’s not only an infernal mistake, it’s an eternal one. Re read the last paragraph. He said if you are not a active member of a church you are not going to Heaven. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/24/2016 10:58:58 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Re read the last paragraph. He said if you are not a active member of a church you are not going to Heaven. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I didn't see that the pastor actually said that not attending church equaled out to not being saved. He seemed to be encouraging being in a church family, and the reasons for that, which I agree with. Again I may have missed it, but I didn't see where he said it However, I think this is bunk Don’t let the devil or anyone else try to convince you to divert and devote your time, talents and treasures anyplace else other than the church. That’s not only an infernal mistake, it’s an eternal one. Re read the last paragraph. He said if you are not a active member of a church you are not going to Heaven. And if he's preached that, I'd confront him about the teaching or just go somewhere else. It's not the Gospel. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/13/2016 1:44:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: John 6:64 is in reference to Judas, who produced works so well that the other disciples didn't suspect it was him that would betray Christ (Matthew 26:21-22).
The case of Judas is certainly interesting from the perspective of sola fide and once saved, always saved. Judas clearly had faith. When the synoptics mention Jesus sending out the apostles two by two, they worked miracles, which required faith. The gospels don't say "all the disciples except Judas worked miracles", so Judas clearly had faith enough to work miracles. Sola fide, check. Once saved, always saved... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/13/2016 4:57:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The case of Judas is certainly interesting from the perspective of sola fide and once saved, always saved. Judas clearly had faith. When the synoptics mention Jesus sending out the apostles two by two, they worked miracles, which required faith. The gospels don't say "all the disciples except Judas worked miracles", so Judas clearly had faith enough to work miracles. Sola fide, check. Once saved, always saved... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: John 6:64 is in reference to Judas, who produced works so well that the other disciples didn't suspect it was him that would betray Christ (Matthew 26:21-22).
The case of Judas is certainly interesting from the perspective of sola fide and once saved, always saved. Judas clearly had faith. When the synoptics mention Jesus sending out the apostles two by two, they worked miracles, which required faith. The gospels don't say "all the disciples except Judas worked miracles", so Judas clearly had faith enough to work miracles. Sola fide, check. Once saved, always saved... Faith was not a precursor to miracles. Didn't the magicians in Egypt also work miracles? When people say "we worked miracles in your name and Jesus replied, " I never knew you" not " that was when you had faith" He said Never. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/13/2016 5:44:14 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The case of Judas is certainly interesting from the perspective of sola fide and once saved, always saved. Judas clearly had faith. When the synoptics mention Jesus sending out the apostles two by two, they worked miracles, which required faith. The gospels don't say "all the disciples except Judas worked miracles", so Judas clearly had faith enough to work miracles. Sola fide, check. Once saved, always saved... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: John 6:64 is in reference to Judas, who produced works so well that the other disciples didn't suspect it was him that would betray Christ (Matthew 26:21-22). The case of Judas is certainly interesting from the perspective of sola fide and once saved, always saved. Judas clearly had faith. When the synoptics mention Jesus sending out the apostles two by two, they worked miracles, which required faith. The gospels don't say "all the disciples except Judas worked miracles", so Judas clearly had faith enough to work miracles. Sola fide, check. Once saved, always saved... |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/24/2016 4:14:42 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Define "real change"; be specific please. And you already made a case for works being a part of faith, which the Bible contradicts. Works can help faith grow, but faith without works is still faith, see James 2:26. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's not about earning salvation. If your faith doesn't change you and you aren't driven into action, you don't have faith to begin with. No, it's saying if your faith does not manifest itself and result in real change, you don't have faith. And you already made a case for works being a part of faith, which the Bible contradicts. Works can help faith grow, but faith without works is still faith, see James 2:26. Faith without works is dead.... Jesus paid the debt for our sin, and nothing we do merits God's grace. However, if we don't have good works that is an indication of a lack of faith. In other words, we don't really believe what we say we believe. If you want a specific example of a LACK of works, I would say continuing to live a sinful lifestyle. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/24/2016 6:10:51 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Faith without works is dead.... Jesus paid the debt for our sin, and nothing we do merits God's grace. However, if we don't have good works that is an indication of a lack of faith. In other words, we don't really believe what we say we believe. If you want a specific example of a LACK of works, I would say continuing to live a sinful lifestyle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: .Define "real change"; be specific please. And you already made a case for works being a part of faith, which the Bible contradicts. Works can help faith grow, but faith without works is still faith, see James 2:26. Faith without works is dead.... Jesus paid the debt for our sin, and nothing we do merits God's grace. However, if we don't have good works that is an indication of a lack of faith. In other words, we don't really believe what we say we believe. If you want a specific example of a LACK of works, I would say continuing to live a sinful lifestyle. Third, you're adding your own meaning to the word "dead" here. It means lifeless in this context, not false or nonexistent. Your meaning creates a inherent contradiction to Romans 4 above. Fourth, context defines the terms in the Bible, not the other way around. Words like "justified" and "saved" are not always in the context of justification before God, or salvation from eternal condemnation. Sometimes they mean justification before men, or salvation from temporal threats, as they do in James. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/27/2016 8:56:21 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Two huge problems for you: Romans 4:2-8 (especially verse 5) and Romans 11:6. Third, you're adding your own meaning to the word "dead" here. It means lifeless in this context, not false or nonexistent. Your meaning creates a inherent contradiction to Romans 4 above. Fourth, context defines the terms in the Bible, not the other way around. Words like "justified" and "saved" are not always in the context of justification before God, or salvation from eternal condemnation. Sometimes they mean justification before men, or salvation from temporal threats, as they do in James. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
.Define "real change"; be specific please. And you already made a case for works being a part of faith, which the Bible contradicts. Works can help faith grow, but faith without works is still faith, see James 2:26. Faith without works is dead.... Jesus paid the debt for our sin, and nothing we do merits God's grace. However, if we don't have good works that is an indication of a lack of faith. In other words, we don't really believe what we say we believe. If you want a specific example of a LACK of works, I would say continuing to live a sinful lifestyle. Third, you're adding your own meaning to the word "dead" here. It means lifeless in this context, not false or nonexistent. Your meaning creates a inherent contradiction to Romans 4 above. Fourth, context defines the terms in the Bible, not the other way around. Words like "justified" and "saved" are not always in the context of justification before God, or salvation from eternal condemnation. Sometimes they mean justification before men, or salvation from temporal threats, as they do in James. I don't see any issue with either one of those passages... Nothing I said in any way indicates that our "works" contribute to our justification. I agree 100% that we do not contribute to our justification, it is paid for 100% by Christ's work on our behalf. And I wasn't assigning my own meaning to "dead". Lifeless works just fine. Works do not create faith, but they ARE a product of faith. How do you explain James 2? Even outside the context of salvation, if someone says they believe something and then they live their lives in a way that completely contradicts that belief, wouldn't you say they don't really believe what they say? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/27/2016 9:38:54 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't see any issue with either one of those passages... Nothing I said in any way indicates that our "works" contribute to our justification. I agree 100% that we do not contribute to our justification, it is paid for 100% by Christ's work on our behalf. And I wasn't assigning my own meaning to "dead". Lifeless works just fine. Works do not create faith, but they ARE a product of faith. How do you explain James 2? Even outside the context of salvation, if someone says they believe something and then they live their lives in a way that completely contradicts that belief, wouldn't you say they don't really believe what they say? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Faith without works is dead.... Jesus paid the debt for our sin, and nothing we do merits God's grace. However, if we don't have good works that is an indication of a lack of faith. In other words, we don't really believe what we say we believe. If you want a specific example of a LACK of works, I would say continuing to live a sinful lifestyle. Third, you're adding your own meaning to the word "dead" here. It means lifeless in this context, not false or nonexistent. Your meaning creates a inherent contradiction to Romans 4 above. Fourth, context defines the terms in the Bible, not the other way around. Words like "justified" and "saved" are not always in the context of justification before God, or salvation from eternal condemnation. Sometimes they mean justification before men, or salvation from temporal threats, as they do in James. I don't see any issue with either one of those passages... Nothing I said in any way indicates that our "works" contribute to our justification. I agree 100% that we do not contribute to our justification, it is paid for 100% by Christ's work on our behalf. And I wasn't assigning my own meaning to "dead". Lifeless works just fine. Works do not create faith, but they ARE a product of faith. How do you explain James 2? Even outside the context of salvation, if someone says they believe something and then they live their lives in a way that completely contradicts that belief, wouldn't you say they don't really believe what they say? James is about being a servant of the Lord, and being an example; it has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. This gets into it more. The issue is 'fruit inspection', and the fact that people actually think they can judge someone else's salvation by standards that don't have to be met to be saved in the first place. It tends to betray that fruit inspector as someone who actually does believe that works are a necessity to be saved, which ironically, makes one wonder who they are trusting for salvation. The problem is that Christians can sin, (1 John 1:8, Romans 7:19) and we can live carnally (1 Cor. 3:1-3, Judges 16:1). The other issue is that you don't have to be a Christian to show love, joy, longsuffering, charity, honesty, etc. Judas is a good example, he didn't believe (John 6:64) but the apostles didn't suspect he would betray Christ (Matt 26:22). You can't even claim that a change indicates this, since even converts to Islam may change their habits. 2 Corinthians 11:13-14 even says that false prophets can act like apostles of Christ. Matthew 7:15-23 tells about false teachers who prophecy and drive out demons, yet are not saved (because they placed their faith in their works). So how can anyone claim that they can possibly know whether or not someone is saved? They can't. We can tell if what someone is doing is Godly or carnal, but we can't pretend to know the heart, and Paul cautioned against putting Christ on your level by doing so in Romans 10:6-7. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/27/2016 11:05:49 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
James isn't about works as a necessary (required) result of faith, which people use to claim that "no works = false faith", which inherently contradicts Romans 4:2-8 and the others I cited. James 2 wouldn't need to be written if works always followed faith, and logically, "faith without works is dead" is nonsense unless there is a such thing as "faith without works". James is about being a servant of the Lord, and being an example; it has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. This gets into it more. The issue is 'fruit inspection', and the fact that people actually think they can judge someone else's salvation by standards that don't have to be met to be saved in the first place. It tends to betray that fruit inspector as someone who actually does believe that works are a necessity to be saved, which ironically, makes one wonder who they are trusting for salvation. The problem is that Christians can sin, (1 John 1:8, Romans 7:19) and we can live carnally (1 Cor. 3:1-3, Judges 16:1). The other issue is that you don't have to be a Christian to show love, joy, longsuffering, charity, honesty, etc. Judas is a good example, he didn't believe (John 6:64) but the apostles didn't suspect he would betray Christ (Matt 26:22). You can't even claim that a change indicates this, since even converts to Islam may change their habits. 2 Corinthians 11:13-14 even says that false prophets can act like apostles of Christ. Matthew 7:15-23 tells about false teachers who prophecy and drive out demons, yet are not saved (because they placed their faith in their works). So how can anyone claim that they can possibly know whether or not someone is saved? They can't. We can tell if what someone is doing is Godly or carnal, but we can't pretend to know the heart, and Paul cautioned against putting Christ on your level by doing so in Romans 10:6-7. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Faith without works is dead.... Jesus paid the debt for our sin, and nothing we do merits God's grace. However, if we don't have good works that is an indication of a lack of faith. In other words, we don't really believe what we say we believe. If you want a specific example of a LACK of works, I would say continuing to live a sinful lifestyle. Third, you're adding your own meaning to the word "dead" here. It means lifeless in this context, not false or nonexistent. Your meaning creates a inherent contradiction to Romans 4 above. Fourth, context defines the terms in the Bible, not the other way around. Words like "justified" and "saved" are not always in the context of justification before God, or salvation from eternal condemnation. Sometimes they mean justification before men, or salvation from temporal threats, as they do in James. I don't see any issue with either one of those passages... Nothing I said in any way indicates that our "works" contribute to our justification. I agree 100% that we do not contribute to our justification, it is paid for 100% by Christ's work on our behalf. And I wasn't assigning my own meaning to "dead". Lifeless works just fine. Works do not create faith, but they ARE a product of faith. How do you explain James 2? Even outside the context of salvation, if someone says they believe something and then they live their lives in a way that completely contradicts that belief, wouldn't you say they don't really believe what they say? James is about being a servant of the Lord, and being an example; it has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. This gets into it more. The issue is 'fruit inspection', and the fact that people actually think they can judge someone else's salvation by standards that don't have to be met to be saved in the first place. It tends to betray that fruit inspector as someone who actually does believe that works are a necessity to be saved, which ironically, makes one wonder who they are trusting for salvation. The problem is that Christians can sin, (1 John 1:8, Romans 7:19) and we can live carnally (1 Cor. 3:1-3, Judges 16:1). The other issue is that you don't have to be a Christian to show love, joy, longsuffering, charity, honesty, etc. Judas is a good example, he didn't believe (John 6:64) but the apostles didn't suspect he would betray Christ (Matt 26:22). You can't even claim that a change indicates this, since even converts to Islam may change their habits. 2 Corinthians 11:13-14 even says that false prophets can act like apostles of Christ. Matthew 7:15-23 tells about false teachers who prophecy and drive out demons, yet are not saved (because they placed their faith in their works). So how can anyone claim that they can possibly know whether or not someone is saved? They can't. We can tell if what someone is doing is Godly or carnal, but we can't pretend to know the heart, and Paul cautioned against putting Christ on your level by doing so in Romans 10:6-7. I still don't see how Romans 4 contradicts what I said? Yes, you are justified by God through faith. You do not "earn" justification through good works. But that in no way implies that good works are not one of the results of your justification (or more specifically regeneration/ sanctification). It seems like you are taking the process out of the context of time. There is a chronological sequence to salvation. God graciously justifies us through the Sacrifice of His Son, we are given a new heart (regeneration) and then God continues to work in our lives (sanctification). The good works come after the first two, during the third. And those good works do not (and cannot) retroactively "earn" or "contribute" to the gracious forgiveness that already happened. However, a lack of good works can indicate that a person was never justified/regenerated to begin with. Look at Matthew 7. Jesus specifically tells us to judge "profits" by their fruit. And then in verse 21 "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven." What about Matthew 6? "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."? Are you saying that it doesn't matter how a person lives? Are you saying that a person can live as a reprobate for their entire life, but as long as they "have faith" they don't have any reason to be concerned about the state of their soul? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2016 8:30:32 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: James isn't about works as a necessary (required) result of faith, which people use to claim that "no works = false faith", which inherently contradicts Romans 4:2-8 and the others I cited. James 2 wouldn't need to be written if works always followed faith, and logically, "faith without works is dead" is nonsense unless there is a such thing as "faith without works". James is about being a servant of the Lord, and being an example; it has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. This gets into it more. The issue is 'fruit inspection', and the fact that people actually think they can judge someone else's salvation by standards that don't have to be met to be saved in the first place. It tends to betray that fruit inspector as someone who actually does believe that works are a necessity to be saved, which ironically, makes one wonder who they are trusting for salvation. The problem is that Christians can sin, (1 John 1:8, Romans 7:19) and we can live carnally (1 Cor. 3:1-3, Judges 16:1). The other issue is that you don't have to be a Christian to show love, joy, longsuffering, charity, honesty, etc. Judas is a good example, he didn't believe (John 6:64) but the apostles didn't suspect he would betray Christ (Matt 26:22). You can't even claim that a change indicates this, since even converts to Islam may change their habits. 2 Corinthians 11:13-14 even says that false prophets can act like apostles of Christ. Matthew 7:15-23 tells about false teachers who prophecy and drive out demons, yet are not saved (because they placed their faith in their works). So how can anyone claim that they can possibly know whether or not someone is saved? They can't. We can tell if what someone is doing is Godly or carnal, but we can't pretend to know the heart, and Paul cautioned against putting Christ on your level by doing so in Romans 10:6-7. I still don't see how Romans 4 contradicts what I said? Yes, you are justified by God through faith. You do not "earn" justification through good works. But that in no way implies that good works are not one of the results of your justification (or more specifically regeneration/ sanctification). It seems like you are taking the process out of the context of time. There is a chronological sequence to salvation. God graciously justifies us through the Sacrifice of His Son, we are given a new heart (regeneration) and then God continues to work in our lives (sanctification). The good works come after the first two, during the third. And those good works do not (and cannot) retroactively "earn" or "contribute" to the gracious forgiveness that already happened. However, a lack of good works can indicate that a person was never justified/regenerated to begin with. Look at Matthew 7. Jesus specifically tells us to judge "profits" by their fruit. And then in verse 21 "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven." What about Matthew 6? "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."? Are you saying that it doesn't matter how a person lives? Are you saying that a person can live as a reprobate for their entire life, but as long as they "have faith" they don't have any reason to be concerned about the state of their soul? Salvation is not a "process", and those who teach that are contradicting what Christ said in John 3:14-18, and He even used Numbers 21:6-9 as an analogy of how simple it really is. In Numbers, all the children of Israel had to do when bitten was to look at the pole and they were saved from death. That's it. There was no process, they didn't have to stare at it the rest of their lives or they would die. One look and it was God who saved them. And if someone trusts Christ and then lives like the Devil, and they die and wake up in heaven, it's by grace, isn't it? Remember that we all sin, (1 John 1:8, Romans 3:20-23) and whoever tries to be justified by the law (i.e. their own righteousness), yet stumbles at one point, is guilty of it all (James 2:10). And whoever lusts at a woman is guilty of adultery, and whoever hates his brother, murder (Matthew 5). So good luck trying to present yourself to God as more righteous on your own good deeds than the guy who lived like the Devil (who appears as an angel of light, btw). Matthew 7 is taken grossly out of context by false teachers who ignore the details because they must twist that section and it's logical implications. As I posted in another thread: Read the passage in context, which many (to include preachers) do not do: 15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ 24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.” 28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching; 29 for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes. So this passage is a warning about avoiding false prophets and teachers, and building your foundation on Christ. It is also a warning to those false teachers in v.21-23. Now as to the warning, pay attention to what is going on. What is the will of the Father? The clearest answer on this is in John 6:40: "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” So the will of the Father is that you believe in Christ. Those in v.22 where trying to persuade Christ on the basis of their rather impressive works of prophecy and demon-casting (which, if true, would actually be the work of God through them, and not their work). Jesus doesn't deny their works, He denies them on the basis of "I never KNEW you". "Those who practice lawlessness" isn't a reference to OT Law, it's a reference to the default state of man, as no one is justified (which means "declared innocent before a judge") before God by the Law (Romans 3:28, Galatians 2:16), and no one is justified by their works (Romans 4:2-8). We are only justified by grace through faith, that justification is not of ourselves, and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). So these false teachers believed and presumably (by the context) taught another gospel, which is not another (Galatians 1), which centered around their works and not Christ's work. It's actually teaching the opposite of what many are saying in the pulpit. And remember we have very famous and popular preachers teaching that you must make Jesus your Lord (Jesus is Lord, we don't make Him Lord), and do a list of works to have genuine faith (turn from sin, live a life of holiness, follow the law, etc). This is who this passage is talking about. As for Matthew 6, read Romans 4-5 again. Born-again believers aren't going to heaven because of our righteousness, we are going to heaven because of Christ's righteousness that He imputes to us. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/30/2016 3:02:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/30/2016 8:02:08 PM EDT
[#41]
The only requirement to go to heaven is to be "Born Again"
John 3:3 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/30/2016 10:52:21 PM EDT
[#42]
People confusing justification and sanctification again.
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
