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Posted: 4/20/2016 8:50:44 AM EDT
[#1]
I've only been around this site a couple of years but it's amazing how many atheist there are these days. I remember the first one I met was back in the 70's in college. He seemed like such an angry little person. They still seem that way now. I guess with Catholics being the largest and oldest form of organized Christianity they need to dump their selfish beliefs on us. Sad for sure but I for one will pray for them none the less. It also amazes me that they believe owning a "black rifle" makes them a big bad man that doesn't need God. I guess that I still believe in God, guns, glory, the American flag, freedom, mom, treating a lady like a lady, and apple pie is what made this country great and will keep it great.
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Posted: 4/20/2016 8:55:24 AM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 4/20/2016 8:58:05 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree ! |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 9:03:00 AM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 4/20/2016 9:43:56 AM EDT
[#5]
Twire, I'll start with one question. How does a person get in to heaven ?
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Posted: 4/20/2016 9:52:08 AM EDT
[#6]
Before we get to far, I would like to say my goal here is not Catholic bashing, but to educate on the gospel.
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Posted: 4/20/2016 9:52:27 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Twire, I'll start with one question. How does a person get in to heaven ? From the CCC: 1023 "Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ." So, basically, it starts with the belief in Christ's life, death, and resurrection and all that, plus doing what he told us to do (like any friend would) ETA: For those that don't know: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/index.cfm |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 10:09:43 AM EDT
[#8]
Callout thread, IBTL.
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Posted: 4/20/2016 10:17:35 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From the CCC: 1023 "Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ." So, basically, it starts with the belief in Christ's life, death, and resurrection and all that, plus doing what he told us to do (like any friend would) ETA: For those that don't know: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/index.cfm Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Twire, I'll start with one question. How does a person get in to heaven ? From the CCC: 1023 "Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ." So, basically, it starts with the belief in Christ's life, death, and resurrection and all that, plus doing what he told us to do (like any friend would) ETA: For those that don't know: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/index.cfm Agreed. Good post op. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 10:24:45 AM EDT
[#10]
Is faith in Christ a requirement to get in God's grace?
I ask because I am not clear on this in the RCC. I have heard some of the RCC say that some Muslims etc will be in heaven because they seek God. Or use the terminology that if Christ said someone's coming to heaven then they go whether or not they believed in him. No I do not think that came from official RCC Doctrine but I have heard it Catholics say that so what I am asking is what is the official view on this |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 10:24:45 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Twire, I'll start with one question. How does a person get in to heaven ? himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16). 1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: "Lord, let me never be parted from you." If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God "desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him "all things are possible" (Mt 19:26). |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 10:35:59 AM EDT
[#13]
I appreciate the time you took to reply. Let me be more blunt. Not to question you but because this issue has come up on Mini internet threads. Can someone get to heaven even if they do not believe that Jesus was the son of God incarnate and and put their faith in his work?
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Posted: 4/20/2016 10:52:25 AM EDT
[#14]
The short answer is "yes" but the odds are greatly against it. One would have to have invincible ignorance such that they are completely without knowledge of Christ through no fault of their own and have lived exemplary lives such that they never violated their conscience & natural law with regard to extreme matters (grave sins).
To turn the tables a little, simply believing that Jesus was the Son of God incarnate and having faith in His work is not a enough to save you either. You must cooperate with His grace and, as Christ said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." St. Paul, when writing to Christian communities, gives a whole laundry list of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God due to certain sins. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 10:56:53 AM EDT
[#15]
Thank you for your answer
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Posted: 4/20/2016 11:00:16 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I appreciate the time you took to reply. Let me be more blunt. Not to question you but because this issue has come up on Mini internet threads. Can someone get to heaven even if they do not believe that Jesus was the son of God incarnate and and put their faith in his work? 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."33 |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 11:27:35 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Callout thread, IBTL. No need for this to get locked. It's not meant to be a flame fest. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 11:33:36 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From the CCC: 1023 "Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ." So, basically, it starts with the belief in Christ's life, death, and resurrection and all that, plus doing what he told us to do (like any friend would) ETA: For those that don't know: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/index.cfm Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Twire, I'll start with one question. How does a person get in to heaven ? From the CCC: 1023 "Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ." So, basically, it starts with the belief in Christ's life, death, and resurrection and all that, plus doing what he told us to do (like any friend would) ETA: For those that don't know: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/index.cfm Can you define the what It is to "die in God's grace and friendship"? |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 12:07:52 PM EDT
[#19]
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God.
It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 12:45:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you define the what It is to "die in God's grace and friendship"? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Twire, I'll start with one question. How does a person get in to heaven ? From the CCC: 1023 "Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ." So, basically, it starts with the belief in Christ's life, death, and resurrection and all that, plus doing what he told us to do (like any friend would) ETA: For those that don't know: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/index.cfm Can you define the what It is to "die in God's grace and friendship"? Besides 1997 as quoted by TWIRE, it's basically you believe in Christ (see the Nicene Creed) and do the things he tells you to do as a friend would (also part of the belief part). The Catechism probably puts it better. There's a lot of good stuff in there. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 12:47:59 PM EDT
[#21]
According to the Bible, Heaven comes to Earth, the New Jerusalem. It also states that no one has ascended to Heaven, but the One who descended from Heaven.
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Posted: 4/20/2016 12:52:19 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've only been around this site a couple of years but it's amazing how many atheist there are these days. I remember the first one I met was back in the 70's in college. He seemed like such an angry little person. They still seem that way now. I guess with Catholics being the largest and oldest form of organized Christianity they need to dump their selfish beliefs on us. Sad for sure but I for one will pray for them none the less. It also amazes me that they believe owning a "black rifle" makes them a big bad man that doesn't need God. I guess that I still believe in God, guns, glory, the American flag, freedom, mom, treating a lady like a lady, and apple pie is what made this country great and will keep it great. I think you're confusing Agnostics for Atheists. We are far larger in numbers and not as crazy 
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Posted: 4/20/2016 12:52:56 PM EDT
[#23]
I'm not asking this to argue, I want clarification ..is the Nicene creed and the Appostles creed incomplete? I would say that most protestants would hold to these as being complete. If they didn't I would have to question their doctrine. But you said in addition to them. When was the addition added? Why would a creed of the church leave something out?
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Posted: 4/20/2016 1:05:54 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not asking this to argue, I want clarification ..is the Nicene creed and the Appostles creed incomplete? I would say that most protestants would hold to these as being complete. If they didn't I would have to question their doctrine. But you said in addition to them. When was the addition added? Why would a creed of the church leave something out? Who said "in addition to"? The RCC wouldn't consider the Nicene, the Apostles, or the Athanasian Creed incomplete. We say the Nicene Creed in Mass every Sunday. As the USCCB says, "Catholic belief is succinctly expressed in the profession of faith or credo called the Nicene Creed". |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 1:15:32 PM EDT
[#25]
I was referring to where you said believe in Christ ( as seen in the Creed). and...
Maybe I misinterpreted. That's why I asked. And yes I fully hold to those creeds. No argument there. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 1:22:34 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think you're confusing Agnostics for Atheists. We are far larger in numbers and not as crazy Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've only been around this site a couple of years but it's amazing how many atheist there are these days. I remember the first one I met was back in the 70's in college. He seemed like such an angry little person. They still seem that way now. I guess with Catholics being the largest and oldest form of organized Christianity they need to dump their selfish beliefs on us. Sad for sure but I for one will pray for them none the less. It also amazes me that they believe owning a "black rifle" makes them a big bad man that doesn't need God. I guess that I still believe in God, guns, glory, the American flag, freedom, mom, treating a lady like a lady, and apple pie is what made this country great and will keep it great. I think you're confusing Agnostics for Atheists. We are far larger in numbers and not as crazy |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 1:27:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not asking this to argue, I want clarification ..is the Nicene creed and the Appostles creed incomplete? I would say that most protestants would hold to these as being complete. If they didn't I would have to question their doctrine. But you said in addition to them. When was the addition added? Why would a creed of the church leave something out? |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 1:29:22 PM EDT
[#28]
Yep. That's dumb.
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Posted: 4/20/2016 1:36:32 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was referring to where you said believe in Christ ( as seen in the Creed). and... Maybe I misinterpreted. That's why I asked. And yes I fully hold to those creeds. No argument there. I think you did misinterpret. No worries. The creeds are the faith distilled down to it's most basic elements. Of course, you then expand on each of those parts. In fact, a big part of the Catechism is just that. If you look at Section 1, Part 2, the Chapters and Paragraphs are just each piece of the creed expanded upon. But there's really nothing "to add" to them. I dunno why we don't use the Athanasian Creed (except in EF) anymore. It's probably mean or something. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 1:41:21 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, I don't think he was confused at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've only been around this site a couple of years but it's amazing how many atheist there are these days. I remember the first one I met was back in the 70's in college. He seemed like such an angry little person. They still seem that way now. I guess with Catholics being the largest and oldest form of organized Christianity they need to dump their selfish beliefs on us. Sad for sure but I for one will pray for them none the less. It also amazes me that they believe owning a "black rifle" makes them a big bad man that doesn't need God. I guess that I still believe in God, guns, glory, the American flag, freedom, mom, treating a lady like a lady, and apple pie is what made this country great and will keep it great. I think you're confusing Agnostics for Atheists. We are far larger in numbers and not as crazy He must be, because there are very few Atheists here. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 2:06:24 PM EDT
[#31]
I'm a Muslim atheist... I don't believe the Muslim god exists....
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Posted: 4/20/2016 2:39:15 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16). Quote HistoryQuoted:
183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16). Quoted:
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church. I was curious so I used the concordance on the Vatican CCC to look up the word "baptism". This is just a few of the things I found - 14 Those who belong to Christ through faith and Baptism must confess their baptismal faith before men. 172 Through the centuries, in so many languages, cultures, peoples and nations, the Church has constantly confessed this one faith, received from the one Lord, transmitted by one Baptism, and grounded in the conviction that all people have only one God and Father.58 St. Irenaeus of Lyons, a witness of this faith, declared: 249 From the beginning, the revealed truth of the Holy Trinity has been at the very root of the Church's living faith, principally by means of Baptism. 804 One enters into the People of God by faith and Baptism. 977 Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."519 Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life." 978 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them.... Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil " 980 It is through the sacrament of Penance that the baptized can be reconciled with God and with the Church: Penance has rightly been called by the holy Fathers "a laborious kind of baptism." This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn. 1228 Hence Baptism is a bath of water in which the "imperishable seed" of the Word of God produces its life-giving effect.32 St. Augustine says of Baptism: "The word is brought to the material element, and it becomes a sacrament." 2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy. So if I read these right, it states that one must be baptized and the basis for this Mark16:16? |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 2:56:59 PM EDT
[#33]
One must be baptized.
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Posted: 4/20/2016 3:02:04 PM EDT
[#34]
100% of the time must?
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Posted: 4/20/2016 3:22:34 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
100% of the time must? First, can you guys please quote the post your responding too. It keeps things clear. Anyway, by and large. As a priest recently said, God's laws and sacraments are granted to us for our benefit, not His. There's also baptism by blood. As in, if you're martyred for your faith and haven't been baptized, that's good enough. There's also intention. For example, if you were in the car driving to your baptism and some drunk jerk came out of nowhere and hit you and you died we kinda figure that God, in his infinity mercy, isn't going to greet you at judgement and say, "Awe, sorry buddy, guess you should have had more situational awareness." and ship you off to hell. I mean, the Good Thief wasn't baptized by water, or using the words at all. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 3:40:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: First, can you guys please quote the post your responding too. It keeps things clear. Anyway, by and large. As a priest recently said, God's laws and sacraments are granted to us for our benefit, not His. There's also baptism by blood. As in, if you're martyred for your faith and haven't been baptized, that's good enough. There's also intention. For example, if you were in the car driving to your baptism and some drunk jerk came out of nowhere and hit you and you died we kinda figure that God, in his infinity mercy, isn't going to greet you at judgement and say, "Awe, sorry buddy, guess you should have had more situational awareness." and ship you off to hell. I mean, the Good Thief wasn't baptized by water, or using the words at all. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 100% of the time must? First, can you guys please quote the post your responding too. It keeps things clear. Anyway, by and large. As a priest recently said, God's laws and sacraments are granted to us for our benefit, not His. There's also baptism by blood. As in, if you're martyred for your faith and haven't been baptized, that's good enough. There's also intention. For example, if you were in the car driving to your baptism and some drunk jerk came out of nowhere and hit you and you died we kinda figure that God, in his infinity mercy, isn't going to greet you at judgement and say, "Awe, sorry buddy, guess you should have had more situational awareness." and ship you off to hell. I mean, the Good Thief wasn't baptized by water, or using the words at all. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 6:14:04 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One must be baptized. Quote HistoryQuoted:
One must be baptized. So Mark 16:16 being the basis for this. The only problem with mark 16:16 is tha the whole of Mark 16:9-20 is not in the oldest manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark. That means it was added later by someone else and outside the RCC it is not accepted as scripture. If we look into scripture, there is one and only one requirement for salvation; faith alone - if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9 | ESV “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 | ESV Adding things to the gospel creates a different gospel, one that is not the inspired word of God - You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.
Deuteronomy 4:2 | ESV Every word of God proves true;he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.6 Do not add to his words,lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6 | ESV |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 6:15:31 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think you're confusing Agnostics for Atheists. We are far larger in numbers and not as crazy Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've only been around this site a couple of years but it's amazing how many atheist there are these days. I remember the first one I met was back in the 70's in college. He seemed like such an angry little person. They still seem that way now. I guess with Catholics being the largest and oldest form of organized Christianity they need to dump their selfish beliefs on us. Sad for sure but I for one will pray for them none the less. It also amazes me that they believe owning a "black rifle" makes them a big bad man that doesn't need God. I guess that I still believe in God, guns, glory, the American flag, freedom, mom, treating a lady like a lady, and apple pie is what made this country great and will keep it great. I think you're confusing Agnostics for Atheists. We are far larger in numbers and not as crazy First of all, thanks for your reply, and it's not that I find people crazy or not it's that just don't understand how people can't believe in God. As far as Agnostics or atheist to me they're one and the same. Agnostics are basically fence sitters that don't to make a choice in public. Atheist have made that choice and have made it known. If being Agnostic means you need more proof let me ask you this. When you wake up in the morning and go outside do you have Faith in the sun coming up ? I'd say you did and before you reply with but I see it therefore I have Faith why don't you ask your favorite atheist if they put it there for you. Believing in a Higher Power is free, just like that sun coming up, you should try it sometime. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 6:16:24 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, I don't think he was confused at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've only been around this site a couple of years but it's amazing how many atheist there are these days. I remember the first one I met was back in the 70's in college. He seemed like such an angry little person. They still seem that way now. I guess with Catholics being the largest and oldest form of organized Christianity they need to dump their selfish beliefs on us. Sad for sure but I for one will pray for them none the less. It also amazes me that they believe owning a "black rifle" makes them a big bad man that doesn't need God. I guess that I still believe in God, guns, glory, the American flag, freedom, mom, treating a lady like a lady, and apple pie is what made this country great and will keep it great. I think you're confusing Agnostics for Atheists. We are far larger in numbers and not as crazy Thank you TWire and your right. No I was not confused at all. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 6:21:53 PM EDT
[#40]
Wanted to add this one too -
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 | ESV |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 6:22:34 PM EDT
[#41]
I'll pose another question, can one loose their salvation?
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Posted: 4/20/2016 7:34:18 PM EDT
[#42]
No offense AR15eric, but when you play the select-a-quote game to "prove" your point of view, it is really tiresome and not at all persuasive. I can provide scripture that goes against what you say. At the end of the day, Protestantism can only make sense if you ignore 15 centuries of Christian (and thus Catholic) belief that came before it.
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Posted: 4/20/2016 7:55:48 PM EDT
[#43]
These discussions always break down to a shouting match; we should at least find some common ground.
Can we all agree that at the very least, the 66 books of the Protestant Bible is the word of God? Can we all agree that the Bible does not contradict itself and is without error? Therefore whatever came after cannot contradict what is the Bible, correct? |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 8:20:16 PM EDT
[#44]
No one is shouting (or going ALL CAPS for that matter).
 ....it's just that cherry picking Scripture quotes proves nothing.
But no, I can't even really agree with your 3 propositions.....the Protestant Bible is the incomplete word of God.....by whose authority were several books removed that were accepted 10 centuries before (Councils of Hippo and Carthage if I remember correctly...) Sure the Bible does not contradict itself, but whose interpretation holds sway? If the Holy Spirit is leading everyone, we should all speak with one voice.....but there are now over 30,000 Protestant sects?!? The Church came before the Bible (who do you think put it together?) ....so again, who gets to determine what "contradicts" the Bible? Does the belief in the Trinity contradict the Bible? The Bible does not even use the term....Jehovah's Witnesses won't buy it.....so does it get adios'ed? Who has the authoritative interpretation? |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 8:29:51 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So Mark 16:16 being the basis for this. The only problem with mark 16:16 is tha the whole of Mark 16:9-20 is not in the oldest manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark. That means it was added later by someone else and outside the RCC it is not accepted as scripture. You do understand that the Catholic Church actually defined the canon of scripture just before 400 AD, largely because it is/was the only Church existent at the time and that for the first 400 years then the Church was Catholic in belief, practice and worship. There are evidences of Mark 16:9-20 in this earliest period, and its inclusion is clearly justified. But beyond that you need to go back and first explain why the Bible is the sole source of reference. Where in the Bible does it say that only the Bible is to be used? If we look into scripture, there is one and only one requirement for salvation; faith alone - Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. So Peter, the leader of the apostles, the one charged by Jesus Christ himself to 'Feed my sheep,' got it wrong? I think he was a little closer to the source than you. Adding things to the gospel creates a different gospel, one that is not the inspired word of God - As does subtracting things from the gospel, wouldn't you agree? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: One must be baptized. So Mark 16:16 being the basis for this. The only problem with mark 16:16 is tha the whole of Mark 16:9-20 is not in the oldest manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark. That means it was added later by someone else and outside the RCC it is not accepted as scripture. You do understand that the Catholic Church actually defined the canon of scripture just before 400 AD, largely because it is/was the only Church existent at the time and that for the first 400 years then the Church was Catholic in belief, practice and worship. There are evidences of Mark 16:9-20 in this earliest period, and its inclusion is clearly justified. But beyond that you need to go back and first explain why the Bible is the sole source of reference. Where in the Bible does it say that only the Bible is to be used? If we look into scripture, there is one and only one requirement for salvation; faith alone - if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9 | ESV "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 | ESV the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. So Peter, the leader of the apostles, the one charged by Jesus Christ himself to 'Feed my sheep,' got it wrong? I think he was a little closer to the source than you. Adding things to the gospel creates a different gospel, one that is not the inspired word of God - As does subtracting things from the gospel, wouldn't you agree? You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you. Deuteronomy 4:2 | ESV Every word of God proves true;he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.6 Do not add to his words,lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6 | ESV |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 8:35:55 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No one is shouting (or going ALL CAPS for that matter). ....it's just that cherry picking Scripture quotes proves nothing. But no, I can't even really agree with your 3 propositions.....the Protestant Bible is the incomplete word of God.....by whose authority were several books removed that were accepted 10 centuries before (Councils of Hippo and Carthage if I remember correctly...) Sure the Bible does not contradict itself, but whose interpretation holds sway? If the Holy Spirit is leading everyone, we should all speak with one voice.....but there are now over 30,000 Protestant sects?!? The Church came before the Bible (who do you think put it together?) ....so again, who gets to determine what "contradicts" the Bible? Does the belief in the Trinity contradict the Bible? The Bible does not even use the term....Jehovah's Witnesses won't buy it.....so does it get adios'ed? Who has the authoritative interpretation? And there is only "30,000 protestant sects" when one counts two Baptist churches in two different countries as two different denominations, which is how they've inflated that number. By the same token, there's hundreds of Catholic sects based on that alone. They also count every independent church as a new denomination, so the number is grossly inflated. It also ignores that not all Catholic churches and sects agree on everything and are exactly alike. So let's concern ourselves with what we can agree on. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 8:44:38 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're missing the point. If all someone had was, say, the Gospel of John we could still agree that it was the word of God, correct? And there is only "30,000 protestant sects" when one counts two Baptist churches in two different countries as two different denominations, which is how they've inflated that number. By the same token, there's hundreds of Catholic sects based on that alone. They also count every independent church as a new denomination, so the number is grossly inflated. It also ignores that not all Catholic churches and sects agree on everything and are exactly alike. So let's concern ourselves with what we can agree on. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: And there is only "30,000 protestant sects" when one counts two Baptist churches in two different countries as two different denominations, which is how they've inflated that number. By the same token, there's hundreds of Catholic sects based on that alone. They also count every independent church as a new denomination, so the number is grossly inflated. It also ignores that not all Catholic churches and sects agree on everything and are exactly alike. So let's concern ourselves with what we can agree on. That being said, I will posit and agree that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 9:00:11 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hog wash. There are NOT hundreds of Catholic sects. You can argue against the splintering of Christianity by divergent Protestant philosophies all you want, but it doesn't make it any less evident or true. That being said, I will posit and agree that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: And there is only "30,000 protestant sects" when one counts two Baptist churches in two different countries as two different denominations, which is how they've inflated that number. By the same token, there's hundreds of Catholic sects based on that alone. They also count every independent church as a new denomination, so the number is grossly inflated. It also ignores that not all Catholic churches and sects agree on everything and are exactly alike. So let's concern ourselves with what we can agree on. That being said, I will posit and agree that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Anyway. If the Bible is the inerrant word of God, then whatever contradicts it is not the word of God, correct? |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 9:07:30 PM EDT
[#49]
"So let's concern ourselves with what we can agree on."
To what end? So we can all have good "feels" about each other? Truth must be the objective. Not 30,000 sects?....OK, so whose right? Methodists? Baptists? JWs? Lutherans? Episcopalians? Anglicans? Iglesia Ni Christo? 7th Day Adventists? Presbyterians? Calvinists? They're all "Bible Believers" I am sure. Catholicism does not admit "sects".....you are either an orthodox Catholic or a heterodox one (outside the Church).....it is a knowable proposition through the catechism, it's not open to individual interpretation....Note there are different rites in Catholicism, but that goes to liturgical practices, not beliefs. PS - M1975 - did you read the title of this thread? "AR15erics list of Catholic offenses"..... I think you're preaching kumbaya to the wrong party here |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 9:29:28 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "So let's concern ourselves with what we can agree on." To what end? So we can all have good "feels" about each other? Truth must be the objective. Not 30,000 sects?....OK, so whose right? Methodists? Baptists? JWs? Lutherans? Episcopalians? Anglicans? Iglesia Ni Christo? 7th Day Adventists? Presbyterians? Calvinists? They're all "Bible Believers" I am sure. Catholicism does not admit "sects".....you are either an orthodox Catholic or a heterodox one (outside the Church).....it is a knowable proposition through the catechism, it's not open to individual interpretation....Note there are different rites in Catholicism, but that goes to liturgical practices, not beliefs. PS - M1975 - did you read the title of this thread? "AR15erics list of Catholic offenses"..... I think you're preaching kumbaya to the wrong party here Most denominations can agree to disagree on non-core doctrines. It's the core stuff that matters: Who was Christ (His nature), what did he do (the resurrection and the sufficiency of the cross), and what must happen for someone's sin to be atoned for (salvation)? So right there you can knock out the JWs, who deny the Trinity and the Deity of Christ, deny His bodily resurrection, and deny that one is saved by belief alone. The 7th Day Adventists make the same mistake as the Galatians did, so I won't get into that. Calvinists and Arminians are closer than they think. On practical terms they believe similar things, it's the how and the why that they differ on. The core issue within Protestantism is the same with Protestants and the RCC: that of truth as defined by the Bible. That's the whole basis of the Reformation. If the RCC contradicts the Bible, then it is the Bible that we must stick to and not any one church. I myself am non-denominational. I probably have more in common with John Cotton than John Calvin. But ultimately it isn't a church or denomination that saves. It's faith in Christ. I don't think the "one true church" is in a building or any one denomination, it's found in those nameless individuals in the pews who listened to the word of God when it was preached and believed. I think they stand a better chance at the judgement seat of God than many a priest or pastor. |
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