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Posted: 5/11/2016 6:19:48 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They happened after, yes. I was refering to the Catholic /Protestant debates during the reformation. Thanks. I guess then it continues to this day. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 6:28:17 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not me. Or anyone who holds to the WCF Can a practicing homosexual, who trusted Christ as savior, go to heaven when he dies? |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 6:29:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. I guess then it continues to this day. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They happened after, yes. I was refering to the Catholic /Protestant debates during the reformation. Thanks. I guess then it continues to this day. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 7:22:38 PM EDT
[#4]
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So can one be saved by faith alone even if that faith is alone and without any works or evidence? Can a practicing homosexual, who trusted Christ as savior, go to heaven when he dies? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not me. Or anyone who holds to the WCF Can a practicing homosexual, who trusted Christ as savior, go to heaven when he dies? Anyone who trust in Christ will be saved. I have said that from the start. No works required. Can a practicing Satanist who continues to worship Satan go to heaven when they die if they claim they trust Jesus? I say they wouldn't trust in Christ unless they accepted that they were a sinner and felt repentance. I have no notions that once someone trust in Jesus the all sin stops. They continue to struggle. So if a practicing homosexual thinks they can continue to practice,will not feel remorse, doesn't care what the Bible says, I doubt they have found the Jesus of the bible. But I'm not the one sending them to hell. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 7:22:53 PM EDT
[#5]
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I hope you realize that is basically the story of the Thief on the Cross. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Here is a summary of how it seems you feel the gospel works.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm38xVMa5Ic
Sorry if many disagree with you. It's no wonder that that doctrine is mocked by other faiths "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work." So you do pretty much agree with the whole premise of that cartoon? 
To many, being a Christian means much more than that, and I think you will find a good many mainstream Christians will disagree with you on your view, that it is that easy to receive the grace of Christ. It doesn't say anything about the thief being saved. It said today, he would be with Christ in Paradise. Yet since Christ didn't go to heaven after he died, (John tells us 3 days later that he had not ascended to his father.) You are making a very large unbased assumption that the thief was saved. Peter tells us that Christ taught the spirits in prison. There are various interpretations of the original words used for paradise and prison. It is just as likely Christ was teaching the thief after his death. He didn't tell him he was saved. He just said they would be somewhere together. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 7:29:11 PM EDT
[#6]
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4 For Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to EVERYONE who BELIEVES Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And therein lies the problem. You consider obeying the commandments as work. it is not. Grace It is a free gift. If we show our love for Christ by simply living as he taught. The gift is there for us. You talk about context, but ignore the biggest clue of all. Christs own words. Have you ever possibly considered for a moment that James 2 doesn't contradict Romans 4, but that Romans 4 is in contradiction with James 2? Of course if you have two options when you see that contradiction 1. Obey Christ's commandments, to be justified to receive his grace unto salvation. OR 2. Do whatever the heck you want, say a few words, and all is good in the end The natural carnal man is going to do all he can to perform scriptural gymnastics to justify the "easy" way. he will come up with all sorts of graphs and videos to try and justify his position so that he can do as little as possible and hope that Grace will abound. But If you look at the two in the context of Christ's words, the answer becomes so clear a 3 year old could understand it.: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. and If ye love me, keep my commandments. You look at it with that context, it becomes clear what the proper route is. It's sad that some see Christ's words and say as you have that it is a sin to follow them. That truly is anti-Christ. First, not only are keeping the commandments "work" per what I already posted: Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH APART FROM THE DEEDS OF THE LAW. So yes, following the commandments (the Law) is work, since it is something you accomplish. You also misunderstand what grace is, since grace and work are mutually exclusive, as I've already quoted to you from Romans 11:6 and Ephesians 2:8-9. You want to quote out-of-context scripture, then ignore scripture that contradicts your assertions. How are we required to follow the commandments to get grace when the Bible says that grace has nothing to do with works? Ephesians 2:8-9: For by GRACE you HAVE been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT of God, 9 NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast. BTW John 14, which you are trying to quote, is Jesus talking to the Apostles (sans Judas), and discipling them, not telling them how to be saved. You have no clue what "anti-christ" is. "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son." -1 John 2:22. So now you are arguing that the apostles have different rules or commandments then we do?  So they must follow the commandments to show their love for God, but if we do it, it is a sin?
You could just as easily apply that same line of reasoning to the verse in Ephesians. The people at that time believed they could earn salvation through works and we're giving instructions specific to them. That does not mean you should base your whole view of Salvation on what they were told. Or while doing your scriptural gymnastics, are you just selectively choosing which verses you feel apply to you and which ones don't? Now that's DOUBLESPEAK. I guess you feel for us, it is just the first and greatest suggestion. Show me anywhere in the red scripture above where it says that good works are not needed. It only states good works don't save you, which is true. Maybe you assume some people get the idea that if they do 100 good works and 99 bad ones, they think they earn their way into heaven. That is what that scripture applies to. It does not say, by grace you are saved, so do whatever the hell you want. As I have stated many times, no matter how much good we do, we will all still sin. That does not mean we shouldn't try. Those works though, the ones Christ commands us to do, justify us to receive grace as it says in Romans. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say not to obey the commandments. Many places it talks about how we will be judged by our works. Romans tells us we are justified by our works and not faith alone. Anti-Christ has multiple meanings. In its simplest form, it means against Christ. If you are saying it is a sin to obey his words and follow his commandments, then you are against him. You have said in the past that some people worship a "different Jesus" than you. The more I hear you speak, I agree. I believe in the Jesus of the Bible that tells people to Love God by obeying his commandments, do good things, and help others. I guess you believe in a Jesus that says it's a sin to do those things. So I guess the devils are saved too then. Right? 9Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe. I guess Judas is saved too. He believed, gave up all he had, did miracles in Christ's name. Or is that a different standard? You profess the example of a quick statement like that cartoon I showed will earn you salvation, but giving up all you have and serving Christ for a time is not enough. Ultimate doublespeak. Christ told Judas along with the others: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. At least I guess we can both agree that works will not save us. We just disagree whether doing what Christ taught is important. Let's just leave it at you believe it is a sin to do your best to follow Christ's teachings and keep his commandments, and others believe it is important to obey the COMMANDMENTS that Christ taught as a way of showing our love for God. Hopefully it works out for you. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 7:44:26 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone who trust in Christ will be saved. I have said that from the start. No works required. Can a practicing Satanist who continues to worship Satan go to heaven when they die if they claim they trust Jesus? I say they wouldn't trust in Christ unless they accepted that they were a sinner and felt repentance. I have no notions that once someone trust in Jesus the all sin stops. They continue to struggle. So if a practicing homosexual thinks they can continue to practice,will not feel remorse, doesn't care what the Bible says, I doubt they have found the Jesus of the bible. But I'm not the one sending them to hell. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Not me. Or anyone who holds to the WCF Can a practicing homosexual, who trusted Christ as savior, go to heaven when he dies? Anyone who trust in Christ will be saved. I have said that from the start. No works required. Can a practicing Satanist who continues to worship Satan go to heaven when they die if they claim they trust Jesus? I say they wouldn't trust in Christ unless they accepted that they were a sinner and felt repentance. I have no notions that once someone trust in Jesus the all sin stops. They continue to struggle. So if a practicing homosexual thinks they can continue to practice,will not feel remorse, doesn't care what the Bible says, I doubt they have found the Jesus of the bible. But I'm not the one sending them to hell. And if performance has an effect on salvation, then it's salvation-by-works. Either it's by faith or it's by works, there's no middle ground. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 7:51:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It doesn't say anything about the thief being saved. It said today, he would be with Christ in Paradise. Yet since Christ didn't go to heaven after he died, (John tells us 3 days later that he had not ascended to his father.) You are making a very large unbased assumption that the thief was saved. Peter tells us that Christ taught the spirits in prison. There are various interpretations of the original words used for paradise and prison. It is just as likely Christ was teaching the thief after his death. He didn't tell him he was saved. He just said they would be somewhere together. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Here is a summary of how it seems you feel the gospel works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm38xVMa5IcSorry if many disagree with you. It's no wonder that that doctrine is mocked by other faiths "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work." So you do pretty much agree with the whole premise of that cartoon? To many, being a Christian means much more than that, and I think you will find a good many mainstream Christians will disagree with you on your view, that it is that easy to receive the grace of Christ. It doesn't say anything about the thief being saved. It said today, he would be with Christ in Paradise. Yet since Christ didn't go to heaven after he died, (John tells us 3 days later that he had not ascended to his father.) You are making a very large unbased assumption that the thief was saved. Peter tells us that Christ taught the spirits in prison. There are various interpretations of the original words used for paradise and prison. It is just as likely Christ was teaching the thief after his death. He didn't tell him he was saved. He just said they would be somewhere together. 12 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.
And why use John 3 as a proof-text when it recounts an event years before the crucifixion? |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 7:57:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So I guess the devils are saved too then. Right? 9Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe. I guess Judas is saved too. He believed, gave up all he had, did miracles in Christ's name. Or is that a different standard? You profess the example of a quick statement like that cartoon I showed will earn you salvation, but giving up all you have and serving Christ for a time is not enough. Ultimate doublespeak. Christ told Judas along with the others: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. At least I guess we can both agree that works will not save us. We just disagree whether doing what Christ taught is important. Let's just leave it at you believe it is a sin to do your best to follow Christ's teachings and keep his commandments, and others believe it is important to obey the COMMANDMENTS that Christ taught as a way of showing our love for God. Hopefully it works out for you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: And therein lies the problem. You consider obeying the commandments as work. it is not. Grace It is a free gift. If we show our love for Christ by simply living as he taught. The gift is there for us. You talk about context, but ignore the biggest clue of all. Christs own words. Have you ever possibly considered for a moment that James 2 doesn't contradict Romans 4, but that Romans 4 is in contradiction with James 2? Of course if you have two options when you see that contradiction 1. Obey Christ's commandments, to be justified to receive his grace unto salvation. OR 2. Do whatever the heck you want, say a few words, and all is good in the end The natural carnal man is going to do all he can to perform scriptural gymnastics to justify the "easy" way. he will come up with all sorts of graphs and videos to try and justify his position so that he can do as little as possible and hope that Grace will abound. But If you look at the two in the context of Christ's words, the answer becomes so clear a 3 year old could understand it.: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. and If ye love me, keep my commandments. You look at it with that context, it becomes clear what the proper route is. It's sad that some see Christ's words and say as you have that it is a sin to follow them. That truly is anti-Christ. First, not only are keeping the commandments "work" per what I already posted: Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH APART FROM THE DEEDS OF THE LAW. So yes, following the commandments (the Law) is work, since it is something you accomplish. You also misunderstand what grace is, since grace and work are mutually exclusive, as I've already quoted to you from Romans 11:6 and Ephesians 2:8-9. You want to quote out-of-context scripture, then ignore scripture that contradicts your assertions. How are we required to follow the commandments to get grace when the Bible says that grace has nothing to do with works? Ephesians 2:8-9: For by GRACE you HAVE been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT of God, 9 NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast. BTW John 14, which you are trying to quote, is Jesus talking to the Apostles (sans Judas), and discipling them, not telling them how to be saved. You have no clue what "anti-christ" is. "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son." -1 John 2:22. So now you are arguing that the apostles have different rules or commandments then we do? So they must follow the commandments to show their love for God, but if we do it, it is a sin?You could just as easily apply that same line of reasoning to the verse in Ephesians. The people at that time believed they could earn salvation through works and we're giving instructions specific to them. That does not mean you should base your whole view of Salvation on what they were told. Or while doing your scriptural gymnastics, are you just selectively choosing which verses you feel apply to you and which ones don't? Now that's DOUBLESPEAK. I guess you feel for us, it is just the first and greatest suggestion. Show me anywhere in the red scripture above where it says that good works are not needed. It only states good works don't save you, which is true. Maybe you assume some people get the idea that if they do 100 good works and 99 bad ones, they think they earn their way into heaven. That is what that scripture applies to. It does not say, by grace you are saved, so do whatever the hell you want. As I have stated many times, no matter how much good we do, we will all still sin. That does not mean we shouldn't try. Those works though, the ones Christ commands us to do, justify us to receive grace as it says in Romans. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say not to obey the commandments. Many places it talks about how we will be judged by our works. Romans tells us we are justified by our works and not faith alone. Anti-Christ has multiple meanings. In its simplest form, it means against Christ. If you are saying it is a sin to obey his words and follow his commandments, then you are against him. You have said in the past that some people worship a "different Jesus" than you. The more I hear you speak, I agree. I believe in the Jesus of the Bible that tells people to Love God by obeying his commandments, do good things, and help others. I guess you believe in a Jesus that says it's a sin to do those things. So I guess the devils are saved too then. Right? 9Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe. I guess Judas is saved too. He believed, gave up all he had, did miracles in Christ's name. Or is that a different standard? You profess the example of a quick statement like that cartoon I showed will earn you salvation, but giving up all you have and serving Christ for a time is not enough. Ultimate doublespeak. Christ told Judas along with the others: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. At least I guess we can both agree that works will not save us. We just disagree whether doing what Christ taught is important. Let's just leave it at you believe it is a sin to do your best to follow Christ's teachings and keep his commandments, and others believe it is important to obey the COMMANDMENTS that Christ taught as a way of showing our love for God. Hopefully it works out for you. BTW if you read John 6:64, you see that Judas DID NOT believe: 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. You are making statements that show you don't actually read the Bible for what it actually says. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 8:02:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except Paul equated Paradise with the "third heaven" where he was caught up in 2 Corinthians 12: 12 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. And why use John 3 as a proof-text when it recounts an event years before the crucifixion? Well, I guess the Father doesn't live in the third heaven then, because that is not where Christ went. As I said, it comes down to interpretation of the words used for paradise. You can say with the thief was saved, but it is just pure speculation. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 8:12:46 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you cut out scripture and deflect to a verse I already showed that you quote out-of-context. The "demons believe" is a reference to showing faith by actions to unbelievers, not salvation, or again, you've contradicted Romans 4. BTW if you read John 6:64, you see that Judas DID NOT believe: 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. You are making statements that show you don't actually read the Bible for what it actually says. Christ wasn't even talking to his apostles when he said that. In verse 67 he then adressess his apostles: 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. He may not have believed later, but he believed enough at one point to give up all he had to do work in the Savior name. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 9:50:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, I guess the Father doesn't live in the third heaven then, because that is not where Christ went. As I said, it comes down to interpretation of the words used for paradise. You can say with the thief was saved, but it is just pure speculation. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Except Paul equated Paradise with the "third heaven" where he was caught up in 2 Corinthians 12: 12 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. And why use John 3 as a proof-text when it recounts an event years before the crucifixion? Well, I guess the Father doesn't live in the third heaven then, because that is not where Christ went. As I said, it comes down to interpretation of the words used for paradise. You can say with the thief was saved, but it is just pure speculation. But you can't accept that because it means that all your work to earn your way to Paradise is for naught when a dirty Thief got in for free (it is a free gift after all). |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 9:52:51 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Christ wasn't even talking to his apostles when he said that. In verse 67 he then adressess his apostles: 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. He may not have believed later, but he believed enough at one point to give up all he had to do work in the Savior name. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So you cut out scripture and deflect to a verse I already showed that you quote out-of-context. The "demons believe" is a reference to showing faith by actions to unbelievers, not salvation, or again, you've contradicted Romans 4. BTW if you read John 6:64, you see that Judas DID NOT believe: 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. You are making statements that show you don't actually read the Bible for what it actually says. Christ wasn't even talking to his apostles when he said that. In verse 67 he then adressess his apostles: 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. He may not have believed later, but he believed enough at one point to give up all he had to do work in the Savior name. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 10:13:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't say "claim", I said they "trusted Christ". And if performance has an effect on salvation, then it's salvation-by-works. Either it's by faith or it's by works, there's no middle ground. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not me. Or anyone who holds to the WCF Can a practicing homosexual, who trusted Christ as savior, go to heaven when he dies? Anyone who trust in Christ will be saved. I have said that from the start. No works required. Can a practicing Satanist who continues to worship Satan go to heaven when they die if they claim they trust Jesus? I say they wouldn't trust in Christ unless they accepted that they were a sinner and felt repentance. I have no notions that once someone trust in Jesus the all sin stops. They continue to struggle. So if a practicing homosexual thinks they can continue to practice,will not feel remorse, doesn't care what the Bible says, I doubt they have found the Jesus of the bible. But I'm not the one sending them to hell. And if performance has an effect on salvation, then it's salvation-by-works. Either it's by faith or it's by works, there's no middle ground. You are right ...my bad..I will try to be precise...once again...if you trust in Jesus you will be saved. Not just trust that He is Jesus, but that He died for You. That you can't earn your way in, that you are a worthless sinner and the ONLY way is if He atoned for your sin on the cross. Then you will be saved. If you screw up late, you are still saved.( but God will let you know you are screwing up). I do not believe that just reading a prayer will save you. It is a changing experience. In order to accept what Christ did for you, you must accept that you are a sinner and are in direct rebellion to God. Then you must want to change, or you wouldn't be accepting Jesus. Notice I didn't say you must cease all sin. No one can do that. Once you receive Christ..( I'm using accept and receive intchangably to be PC). You are saved. Done. I believe that someone who has Christ inside them will show signs of it. Not a requirement..I mean they may get hit by a bus right away. They are already saved..can't lose that. But show me a Christian and I will show you something that they have done that is a good work. And by good I mean in Gods view. I don't believe a non Christian can do anything pleasing to God. Can they do nice things for me? Sure. But we are supposed to do everything to glorify God. And if they aren't saved, no matter what they do is not good in Gods eyes. OTOH, someone who is a Christian, who holds the door for someone, is glorifying God. Not saving himself. The works are because we are saved. And only possible because of God. So can a professing Christian be a practicing homosexual? Yes. Can a professing Christian swear? Have an affair? Steal? Yes. Will a Christian feel remorse for their sin? Yes. If not, God has hardened your heart..and that's not a good place to be. Are there lots of people who say they are Christians and blatantly sin , feel no remorse and at judgement Jesus will say " I never knew you"? Yes there will be. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 10:32:47 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are right ...my bad..I will try to be precise...once again...if you trust in Jesus you will be saved. Not just trust that He is Jesus, but that He died for You. That you can't earn your way in, that you are a worthless sinner and the ONLY way is if He atoned for your sin on the cross. Then you will be saved. If you screw up late, you are still saved.( but God will let you know you are screwing up). I do not believe that just reading a prayer will save you. It is a changing experience. In order to accept what Christ did for you, you must accept that you are a sinner and are in direct rebellion to God. Then you must want to change, or you wouldn't be accepting Jesus. Notice I didn't say you must cease all sin. No one can do that. Once you receive Christ..( I'm using accept and receive intchangably to be PC). You are saved. Done. I believe that someone who has Christ inside them will show signs of it. Not a requirement..I mean they may get hit by a bus right away. They are already saved..can't lose that. But show me a Christian and I will show you something that they have done that is a good work. And by good I mean in Gods view. I don't believe a non Christian can do anything pleasing to God. Can they do nice things for me? Sure. But we are supposed to do everything to glorify God. And if they aren't saved, no matter what they do is not good in Gods eyes. OTOH, someone who is a Christian, who holds the door for someone, is glorifying God. Not saving himself. The works are because we are saved. And only possible because of God. So can a professing Christian be a practicing homosexual? Yes. Can a professing Christian swear? Have an affair? Steal? Yes. Will a Christian feel remorse for their sin? Yes. If not, God has hardened your heart..and that's not a good place to be. Are there lots of people who say they are Christians and blatantly sin , feel no remorse and at judgement Jesus will say " I never knew you"? Yes there will be. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I didn't say "claim", I said they "trusted Christ". And if performance has an effect on salvation, then it's salvation-by-works. Either it's by faith or it's by works, there's no middle ground. You are right ...my bad..I will try to be precise...once again...if you trust in Jesus you will be saved. Not just trust that He is Jesus, but that He died for You. That you can't earn your way in, that you are a worthless sinner and the ONLY way is if He atoned for your sin on the cross. Then you will be saved. If you screw up late, you are still saved.( but God will let you know you are screwing up). I do not believe that just reading a prayer will save you. It is a changing experience. In order to accept what Christ did for you, you must accept that you are a sinner and are in direct rebellion to God. Then you must want to change, or you wouldn't be accepting Jesus. Notice I didn't say you must cease all sin. No one can do that. Once you receive Christ..( I'm using accept and receive intchangably to be PC). You are saved. Done. I believe that someone who has Christ inside them will show signs of it. Not a requirement..I mean they may get hit by a bus right away. They are already saved..can't lose that. But show me a Christian and I will show you something that they have done that is a good work. And by good I mean in Gods view. I don't believe a non Christian can do anything pleasing to God. Can they do nice things for me? Sure. But we are supposed to do everything to glorify God. And if they aren't saved, no matter what they do is not good in Gods eyes. OTOH, someone who is a Christian, who holds the door for someone, is glorifying God. Not saving himself. The works are because we are saved. And only possible because of God. So can a professing Christian be a practicing homosexual? Yes. Can a professing Christian swear? Have an affair? Steal? Yes. Will a Christian feel remorse for their sin? Yes. If not, God has hardened your heart..and that's not a good place to be. Are there lots of people who say they are Christians and blatantly sin , feel no remorse and at judgement Jesus will say " I never knew you"? Yes there will be. Now as far as a prayer, remember that there is someone in the gospel of Luke that was pronounced saved (by faith) who never said a word. However, people have been saved with a prayer, which essentially is what the Thief on the Cross did. It's God that saves, by His grace, given through faith, not words. I can agree there. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 8:23:47 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well if Christ went to Paradise, and Paradise is another word for the "third heaven" (which we consider just "heaven" the first heaven being the sky, and the second is space) according to Paul, then Christ went to heaven. Thus the Thief is saved. But you can't accept that because it means that all your work to earn your way to Paradise is for naught when a dirty Thief got in for free (it is a free gift after all). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Except Paul equated Paradise with the "third heaven" where he was caught up in 2 Corinthians 12: 12 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. And why use John 3 as a proof-text when it recounts an event years before the crucifixion? Well, I guess the Father doesn't live in the third heaven then, because that is not where Christ went. As I said, it comes down to interpretation of the words used for paradise. You can say with the thief was saved, but it is just pure speculation. But you can't accept that because it means that all your work to earn your way to Paradise is for naught when a dirty Thief got in for free (it is a free gift after all). The problem with your line of reasoning lies in John 20: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 3 days after he died, He had still not been to heaven, so obviously this "paradise" is somewhere else. So again, you are purely speculating he was saved. And show me where I ever said you can "earn your way" to salvation. I have said at least a dozen times in this thread that you can't earn your way to salvation through works. You just can't seem to comprehend the fact that some people happen to love God, and obey his commandments out of love for him as Jesus taught, not to "earn something". Maybe loving God is a foreign concept to you. I guess God told us how to show our love for him, and you said doing that is a sin, so maybe? Show me one place in the Bible where it says not to follow the commandments, or that following them is a sin? There are some that say thinking you can earn salvation through your works is a sin, but that is not what we are talking about. We already both agree that you can't earn you salvation. Show where it says you shouldn't do good works. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 8:30:14 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Simon Peter wasn't Judas, and Scripture does not say Judas believed later on; you're reading that into the text because otherwise, it means that faith and works aren't synonymous or have a direct relationship - even though I showed you Scripture that says that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So you cut out scripture and deflect to a verse I already showed that you quote out-of-context. The "demons believe" is a reference to showing faith by actions to unbelievers, not salvation, or again, you've contradicted Romans 4. BTW if you read John 6:64, you see that Judas DID NOT believe: 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. You are making statements that show you don't actually read the Bible for what it actually says. Christ wasn't even talking to his apostles when he said that. In verse 67 he then adressess his apostles: 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. He may not have believed later, but he believed enough at one point to give up all he had to do work in the Savior name. Yet Simon Peter answered "WE believe" not "I". This is where your line of reasoning for saved by faith alone is complete hypocrisy. You have stated, this is sufficient for salvation: 
Yet, a man (Judas) who gives up all he has to follow Christ, suffers with him at times, has enough faith to perform miracles in his name, did not have enough faith to be saved. Judas at one point showed far more faith then 99% of Christians ever will. Go ask a random Christian, to give up all their possessions to serve the Lord for free and see how well you are received. The only difference is in his works. A choice he made. So either more then faith is required, or Judas lost his salvation due to an evil work. Even the Bible says it was due to his sin that he FELL. You can't fall from somewhere you haven't been. Acts 1: 25. That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. The Bible tells of others who apparently lost Salvation due to choices or works they did: In 1 Timothy 5 it tells of Christians that are damned because they turned to Satan and cast off their first faith: 11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. 15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. I am not alone in the thought that you can lose your salvation based on evil works you do. Other mainstream Christians believe that also: http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/IsOnceSavedAlwaysSavedABibleDoctrine.html http://www.centervilleroad.com/articles/apostasy.html http://www.heart-talks.com/fall02.html Even Catholics point to Judas as an example of how salvation can be lost do to evil works. The same Catholics who you feel were so inspired to provide us with the Bible, but not inspired enough to apparently understand it, and thus the need for your version of the gospel. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 2:43:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Enjoying the last few pages.
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Posted: 5/12/2016 2:59:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The problem with your line of reasoning lies in John 20: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 3 days after he died, He had still not been to heaven, so obviously this "paradise" is somewhere else. So again, you are purely speculating he was saved. And show me where I ever said you can "earn your way" to salvation. I have said at least a dozen times in this thread that you can't earn your way to salvation through works. You just can't seem to comprehend the fact that some people happen to love God, and obey his commandments out of love for him as Jesus taught, not to "earn something". Maybe loving God is a foreign concept to you. I guess God told us how to show our love for him, and you said doing that is a sin, so maybe? Show me one place in the Bible where it says not to follow the commandments, or that following them is a sin? There are some that say thinking you can earn salvation through your works is a sin, but that is not what we are talking about. We already both agree that you can't earn you salvation. Show where it says you shouldn't do good works. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Except Paul equated Paradise with the "third heaven" where he was caught up in 2 Corinthians 12: 12 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. And why use John 3 as a proof-text when it recounts an event years before the crucifixion? Well, I guess the Father doesn't live in the third heaven then, because that is not where Christ went. As I said, it comes down to interpretation of the words used for paradise. You can say with the thief was saved, but it is just pure speculation. But you can't accept that because it means that all your work to earn your way to Paradise is for naught when a dirty Thief got in for free (it is a free gift after all). The problem with your line of reasoning lies in John 20: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 3 days after he died, He had still not been to heaven, so obviously this "paradise" is somewhere else. So again, you are purely speculating he was saved. And show me where I ever said you can "earn your way" to salvation. I have said at least a dozen times in this thread that you can't earn your way to salvation through works. You just can't seem to comprehend the fact that some people happen to love God, and obey his commandments out of love for him as Jesus taught, not to "earn something". Maybe loving God is a foreign concept to you. I guess God told us how to show our love for him, and you said doing that is a sin, so maybe? Show me one place in the Bible where it says not to follow the commandments, or that following them is a sin? There are some that say thinking you can earn salvation through your works is a sin, but that is not what we are talking about. We already both agree that you can't earn you salvation. Show where it says you shouldn't do good works.  The issue isn't following the commandments, it's the necessity of doing so for eternal life, which is only on the basis of faith (trust) alone in Christ's work alone.
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Posted: 5/12/2016 3:00:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yet Simon Peter answered "WE believe" not "I". This is where your line of reasoning for saved by faith alone is complete hypocrisy. You have stated, this is sufficient for salvation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm38xVMa5IcYet, a man (Judas) who gives up all he has to follow Christ, suffers with him at times, has enough faith to perform miracles in his name, did not have enough faith to be saved. Judas at one point showed far more faith then 99% of Christians ever will. Go ask a random Christian, to give up all their possessions to serve the Lord for free and see how well you are received. The only difference is in his works. A choice he made. So either more then faith is required, or Judas lost his salvation due to an evil work. Even the Bible says it was due to his sin that he FELL. You can't fall from somewhere you haven't been. Acts 1: 25. That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. The Bible tells of others who apparently lost Salvation due to choices or works they did: In 1 Timothy 5 it tells of Christians that are damned because they turned to Satan and cast off their first faith: 11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. 15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. I am not alone in the thought that you can lose your salvation based on evil works you do. Other mainstream Christians believe that also: http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/IsOnceSavedAlwaysSavedABibleDoctrine.html http://www.centervilleroad.com/articles/apostasy.html http://www.heart-talks.com/fall02.html Even Catholics point to Judas as an example of how salvation can be lost do to evil works. The same Catholics who you feel were so inspired to provide us with the Bible, but not inspired enough to apparently understand it, and thus the need for your version of the gospel. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So you cut out scripture and deflect to a verse I already showed that you quote out-of-context. The "demons believe" is a reference to showing faith by actions to unbelievers, not salvation, or again, you've contradicted Romans 4. BTW if you read John 6:64, you see that Judas DID NOT believe: 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. You are making statements that show you don't actually read the Bible for what it actually says. Christ wasn't even talking to his apostles when he said that. In verse 67 he then adressess his apostles: 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. He may not have believed later, but he believed enough at one point to give up all he had to do work in the Savior name. Yet Simon Peter answered "WE believe" not "I". This is where your line of reasoning for saved by faith alone is complete hypocrisy. You have stated, this is sufficient for salvation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm38xVMa5IcYet, a man (Judas) who gives up all he has to follow Christ, suffers with him at times, has enough faith to perform miracles in his name, did not have enough faith to be saved. Judas at one point showed far more faith then 99% of Christians ever will. Go ask a random Christian, to give up all their possessions to serve the Lord for free and see how well you are received. The only difference is in his works. A choice he made. So either more then faith is required, or Judas lost his salvation due to an evil work. Even the Bible says it was due to his sin that he FELL. You can't fall from somewhere you haven't been. Acts 1: 25. That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. The Bible tells of others who apparently lost Salvation due to choices or works they did: In 1 Timothy 5 it tells of Christians that are damned because they turned to Satan and cast off their first faith: 11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. 15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. I am not alone in the thought that you can lose your salvation based on evil works you do. Other mainstream Christians believe that also: http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/IsOnceSavedAlwaysSavedABibleDoctrine.html http://www.centervilleroad.com/articles/apostasy.html http://www.heart-talks.com/fall02.html Even Catholics point to Judas as an example of how salvation can be lost do to evil works. The same Catholics who you feel were so inspired to provide us with the Bible, but not inspired enough to apparently understand it, and thus the need for your version of the gospel. Again you are reading your own preconceptions into the text. Does he say they lost salvation? No. Again read John 10:27-29, and 2 Timothy 2:13. And it doesn't matter what a church says, or how popular a belief is, it matters what the Bible says. The irony is that you'll ignore those people you are trying to use to refute me when they refute Mormonism. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 3:08:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Enjoying the last few pages. He's just trying to discredit me because I've shown where the LDS is in error in past threads. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 3:49:19 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Exractr thinks Catholics are heretics also, being Mormon. He's just trying to discredit me because I've shown where the LDS is in error in past threads. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Enjoying the last few pages. He's just trying to discredit me because I've shown where the LDS is in error in past threads. Hubris. You have it. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 3:49:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exractr thinks Catholics are heretics also, being Mormon. He's just trying to discredit me because I've shown where the LDS is in error in past threads. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Enjoying the last few pages. He's just trying to discredit me because I've shown where the LDS is in error in past threads. You haven't shown any errors. I think you are just bitter about all the glaring hypocrisys I pointed out in relation to your own thoughts. I never said Catholics are heretics. I just pointed out the irony that you feel they were so inspired to bring about the Bible and there is no way that there are any errors in it, even while they were murdering people for even looking at it's pages, yet they were not inspired enough to understand it, so it was necessary for the world to start up 30,000 different Christian churches to correct them. You apparently feel parts of the Catholic doctrine is heresy, or you would be part of it. The other real irony is those that you praise for supposedly bringing forth a 100% pure Bible, would consider you a heretic for your current beliefs. So were they right before they were wrong, or were they wrong all along? |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 3:55:16 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Peter knew Judas' heart better than Christ did? Again you are reading your own preconceptions into the text. Does he say they lost salvation? No. Again read John 10:27-29, and 2 Timothy 2:13. And it doesn't matter what a church says, or how popular a belief is, it matters what the Bible says. The irony is that you'll ignore those people you are trying to use to refute me when they refute Mormonism. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So you cut out scripture and deflect to a verse I already showed that you quote out-of-context. The "demons believe" is a reference to showing faith by actions to unbelievers, not salvation, or again, you've contradicted Romans 4. BTW if you read John 6:64, you see that Judas DID NOT believe: 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. You are making statements that show you don't actually read the Bible for what it actually says. Christ wasn't even talking to his apostles when he said that. In verse 67 he then adressess his apostles: 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. He may not have believed later, but he believed enough at one point to give up all he had to do work in the Savior name. Yet Simon Peter answered "WE believe" not "I". This is where your line of reasoning for saved by faith alone is complete hypocrisy. You have stated, this is sufficient for salvation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm38xVMa5Ic
Yet, a man (Judas) who gives up all he has to follow Christ, suffers with him at times, has enough faith to perform miracles in his name, did not have enough faith to be saved. Judas at one point showed far more faith then 99% of Christians ever will. Go ask a random Christian, to give up all their possessions to serve the Lord for free and see how well you are received. The only difference is in his works. A choice he made. So either more then faith is required, or Judas lost his salvation due to an evil work. Even the Bible says it was due to his sin that he FELL. You can't fall from somewhere you haven't been. Acts 1: 25. That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. The Bible tells of others who apparently lost Salvation due to choices or works they did: In 1 Timothy 5 it tells of Christians that are damned because they turned to Satan and cast off their first faith: 11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. 15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. I am not alone in the thought that you can lose your salvation based on evil works you do. Other mainstream Christians believe that also: http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/IsOnceSavedAlwaysSavedABibleDoctrine.html http://www.centervilleroad.com/articles/apostasy.html http://www.heart-talks.com/fall02.html Even Catholics point to Judas as an example of how salvation can be lost do to evil works. The same Catholics who you feel were so inspired to provide us with the Bible, but not inspired enough to apparently understand it, and thus the need for your version of the gospel. Again you are reading your own preconceptions into the text. Does he say they lost salvation? No. Again read John 10:27-29, and 2 Timothy 2:13. And it doesn't matter what a church says, or how popular a belief is, it matters what the Bible says. The irony is that you'll ignore those people you are trying to use to refute me when they refute Mormonism. So what did Judas fall from? Are you saying I am doing what you did in relation to the thief on the cross? You reading in your own preconceptions into the text? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Those people I quoted, are quoting from the Bible. That is the issue. You have your interpretation, other people have theirs. You have claimed in the past that the Bible is so pure, clear, and easy to understand, yet a 3 year old can see otherwise. This is no "small" issue in doctrine either. Many Christians believe you can lose your salvation if you sin. You say you can't. Both back up their side from the Bible, and both sides make an argument based from scripture. You may not agree with their interpretation because you think you can justify your view from scripture. The problem is the other side can justify their position from scripture also, and thus they disagree with your view. These views cannot both be correct as they are in direct contradiction. It seems that depending on which one is right, alot of "Christians" who think they are saved, possibly could be getting screwed in the end. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 4:20:54 PM EDT
[#25]
Man you gotta love these so called Christian threads.
People come in and post recommending living a good life and helping others as Christ taught, not to earn salvation, but simply out of a love for God, and they are chastised by the OP, told that they are wrong and are essentially sinning by living or recommending that others live that way. 
Christianity at it's finest. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 4:38:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you want to start that all over again? Glad to know you are in the 'Catholics are heretics camp.' Hubris. You have it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Enjoying the last few pages. He's just trying to discredit me because I've shown where the LDS is in error in past threads. Hubris. You have it. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 4:39:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You haven't shown any errors. I think you are just bitter about all the glaring hypocrisys I pointed out in relation to your own thoughts. I never said Catholics are heretics. I just pointed out the irony that you feel they were so inspired to bring about the Bible and there is no way that there are any errors in it, even while they were murdering people for even looking at it's pages, yet they were not inspired enough to understand it, so it was necessary for the world to start up 30,000 different Christian churches to correct them. You apparently feel parts of the Catholic doctrine is heresy, or you would be part of it. The other real irony is those that you praise for supposedly bringing forth a 100% pure Bible, would consider you a heretic for your current beliefs. So were they right before they were wrong, or were they wrong all along? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Enjoying the last few pages. He's just trying to discredit me because I've shown where the LDS is in error in past threads. You haven't shown any errors. I think you are just bitter about all the glaring hypocrisys I pointed out in relation to your own thoughts. I never said Catholics are heretics. I just pointed out the irony that you feel they were so inspired to bring about the Bible and there is no way that there are any errors in it, even while they were murdering people for even looking at it's pages, yet they were not inspired enough to understand it, so it was necessary for the world to start up 30,000 different Christian churches to correct them. You apparently feel parts of the Catholic doctrine is heresy, or you would be part of it. The other real irony is those that you praise for supposedly bringing forth a 100% pure Bible, would consider you a heretic for your current beliefs. So were they right before they were wrong, or were they wrong all along? You think all the churches were wrong before Joseph Smith came around. Why are you judging me by standards you don't keep yourself? |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 4:45:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what did Judas fall from? Are you saying I am doing what you did in relation to the thief on the cross? You reading in your own preconceptions into the text? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Those people I quoted, are quoting from the Bible. That is the issue. You have your interpretation, other people have theirs. You have claimed in the past that the Bible is so pure, clear, and easy to understand, yet a 3 year old can see otherwise. This is no "small" issue in doctrine either. Many Christians believe you can lose your salvation if you sin. You say you can't. Both back up their side from the Bible, and both sides make an argument based from scripture. You may not agree with their interpretation because you think you can justify your view from scripture. The problem is the other side can justify their position from scripture also, and thus they disagree with your view. These views cannot both be correct as they are in direct contradiction. It seems that depending on which one is right, alot of "Christians" who think they are saved, possibly could be getting screwed in the end. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Peter knew Judas' heart better than Christ did? Again you are reading your own preconceptions into the text. Does he say they lost salvation? No. Again read John 10:27-29, and 2 Timothy 2:13. And it doesn't matter what a church says, or how popular a belief is, it matters what the Bible says. The irony is that you'll ignore those people you are trying to use to refute me when they refute Mormonism. So what did Judas fall from? Are you saying I am doing what you did in relation to the thief on the cross? You reading in your own preconceptions into the text? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Those people I quoted, are quoting from the Bible. That is the issue. You have your interpretation, other people have theirs. You have claimed in the past that the Bible is so pure, clear, and easy to understand, yet a 3 year old can see otherwise. This is no "small" issue in doctrine either. Many Christians believe you can lose your salvation if you sin. You say you can't. Both back up their side from the Bible, and both sides make an argument based from scripture. You may not agree with their interpretation because you think you can justify your view from scripture. The problem is the other side can justify their position from scripture also, and thus they disagree with your view. These views cannot both be correct as they are in direct contradiction. It seems that depending on which one is right, alot of "Christians" who think they are saved, possibly could be getting screwed in the end. There are no contradictions in the Bible, it is you that is contradicting it. The Gospel isn't that hard. Remember Matthew 18:3, "the faith of little children"? |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 4:46:24 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Man you gotta love these so called Christian threads. People come in and post recommending living a good life and helping others as Christ taught, not to earn salvation, but simply out of a love for God, and they are chastised by the OP, told that they are wrong and are essentially sinning by living or recommending that others live that way. Christianity at it's finest. I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 4:59:47 PM EDT
[#30]
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I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Man you gotta love these so called Christian threads. People come in and post recommending living a good life and helping others as Christ taught, not to earn salvation, but simply out of a love for God, and they are chastised by the OP, told that they are wrong and are essentially sinning by living or recommending that others live that way.
Christianity at it's finest. I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. So it seems I remember Jesus saying "Go and sin no more". It must have been important to Him that we no longer sinned since we saw He was our Savior and that we had accepted Him as so? |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:05:19 PM EDT
[#31]
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The irony. You think all the churches were wrong before Joseph Smith came around. Why are you judging me by standards you don't keep yourself? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Enjoying the last few pages. He's just trying to discredit me because I've shown where the LDS is in error in past threads. You haven't shown any errors. I think you are just bitter about all the glaring hypocrisys I pointed out in relation to your own thoughts. I never said Catholics are heretics. I just pointed out the irony that you feel they were so inspired to bring about the Bible and there is no way that there are any errors in it, even while they were murdering people for even looking at it's pages, yet they were not inspired enough to understand it, so it was necessary for the world to start up 30,000 different Christian churches to correct them. You apparently feel parts of the Catholic doctrine is heresy, or you would be part of it. The other real irony is those that you praise for supposedly bringing forth a 100% pure Bible, would consider you a heretic for your current beliefs. So were they right before they were wrong, or were they wrong all along? You think all the churches were wrong before Joseph Smith came around. Why are you judging me by standards you don't keep yourself? What standards? I have freely and openly admitted that I feel the teachings in Bible has been somewhat corrupted and are not 100% the same as when they left Christ's and the Apostles mouths. Centuries of passing them down orally will do that to doctrine. It does contain God's truth, but like any other thing man has touched, is not as pure as it could be. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:06:28 PM EDT
[#32]
See, let's review:
One, the issue with sin is that we all fall short of God's glory, i.e. perfection (Romans 3:23). So it isn't about performance, it's about the nature of fallen man. Has any of you not sinned? Do you always follow the commandments in light of Matthew 5:20-30? Are you perfect as God is perfect? If you say yes, the Bible says you are a liar (1 John 1:8,10) Two, when we are saved we are given a new nature, but the old nature still resides until we die (Romans 7:14-8:1, 1 Corinthians 15:44-49, Galatians 5:17). So we still fall short of God's glory, but we are freed from the slavery of sin, though we can choose to sin. All of the epistles involve encouraging Christians to not follow after the flesh but follow after the spirit. Three, 1 John 1:8,10 tells us that we still sin. Romans 7:19 is where Paul admits he practices evil, James 2:10 says if we break one part of the law we break it all. So yelling at someone in traffic requires just as much grace as any other sin, before and after we are saved. Four, Paul repeatedly states that we are saved by faith (most notably in Romans 3:20-4:8). Jesus states we are saved by believing in Him repeatedly in John's gospel (John 3:14-18, 5:24, 6:28,37-40,47, 11:25, etc),which was "written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name." (John 20:31). Notice he says "in His name", and not anything else. Five, Salvation isn't about whether or not we deserve it by living a good life. It's about the grace of God given to us freely as a gift, and there's nothing we can do to deserve it. (Romans 4:5-8, Ephesians 2:8-9 compared to Romans 11:6, Galatians 2:16&21, Galatians 3:12). Six, Once we are saved, even we can't "unsave" ourselves (John 10:28, Ephesians 4:30, 1 Cor. 3:15, 2 Timothy 2:13) Seven, Saved Christians do get punished by temporal punishment from God if they sin willfully (Proverbs 15:10, Hebrews 12:5-11, Jeremiah 2:19). The worst case scenario would be by premature physical death (1 John 5:16-17, 1 Corinthians 11:30) but their eternal salvation remains intact and untouched (see point six). |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:10:50 PM EDT
[#33]
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Again, Jesus says "he that believes in Me has eternal life", (John 6:47), and in the same chapter, it says Judas never believed (again verse 64), so what "fell" means, isn't salvation-related, because he never believed to have salvation in the first place. There are no contradictions in the Bible, it is you that is contradicting it. The Gospel isn't that hard. Remember Matthew 18:3, "the faith of little children"? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Peter knew Judas' heart better than Christ did? Again you are reading your own preconceptions into the text. Does he say they lost salvation? No. Again read John 10:27-29, and 2 Timothy 2:13. And it doesn't matter what a church says, or how popular a belief is, it matters what the Bible says. The irony is that you'll ignore those people you are trying to use to refute me when they refute Mormonism. So what did Judas fall from? Are you saying I am doing what you did in relation to the thief on the cross? You reading in your own preconceptions into the text? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Those people I quoted, are quoting from the Bible. That is the issue. You have your interpretation, other people have theirs. You have claimed in the past that the Bible is so pure, clear, and easy to understand, yet a 3 year old can see otherwise. This is no "small" issue in doctrine either. Many Christians believe you can lose your salvation if you sin. You say you can't. Both back up their side from the Bible, and both sides make an argument based from scripture. You may not agree with their interpretation because you think you can justify your view from scripture. The problem is the other side can justify their position from scripture also, and thus they disagree with your view. These views cannot both be correct as they are in direct contradiction. It seems that depending on which one is right, alot of "Christians" who think they are saved, possibly could be getting screwed in the end. There are no contradictions in the Bible, it is you that is contradicting it. The Gospel isn't that hard. Remember Matthew 18:3, "the faith of little children"? Reading your preconceptions into verses again I see. It doesn't say he "never" believed. You are adding that in. He obviously did believe at one point if he was willing to give up all his possessions, follow Christ, and have faith enough to perform miracles in his name. You must be smoking something if you think someone would give up all he had, if he didn't have belief in what he was doing. He eventually loved money more then Christ and sinned. Thus by his works, fell. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:11:56 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So it seems I remember Jesus saying "Go and sin no more". It must have been important to Him that we no longer sinned since we saw He was our Savior and that we had accepted Him as so? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Man you gotta love these so called Christian threads. People come in and post recommending living a good life and helping others as Christ taught, not to earn salvation, but simply out of a love for God, and they are chastised by the OP, told that they are wrong and are essentially sinning by living or recommending that others live that way. Christianity at it's finest. I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. So it seems I remember Jesus saying "Go and sin no more". It must have been important to Him that we no longer sinned since we saw He was our Savior and that we had accepted Him as so? Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; "The poison of asps is under their lips”; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known.” 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God And: 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:13:59 PM EDT
[#35]
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I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Man you gotta love these so called Christian threads. People come in and post recommending living a good life and helping others as Christ taught, not to earn salvation, but simply out of a love for God, and they are chastised by the OP, told that they are wrong and are essentially sinning by living or recommending that others live that way.
Christianity at it's finest. I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. Jesus never taught that. He taught: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. and If ye love me, keep my commandments. So when I promote Jesus's own words, you say it is a sin to live that way.
I will stick with Christ's words. He is the master. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:18:06 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What standards? I have freely and openly admitted that I feel the teachings in Bible has been somewhat corrupted and are not 100% the same as when they left Christ's and the Apostles mouths. Centuries of passing them down orally will do that to doctrine. It does contain God's truth, but like any other thing man has touched, is not as pure as it could be. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Enjoying the last few pages. He's just trying to discredit me because I've shown where the LDS is in error in past threads. You haven't shown any errors. I think you are just bitter about all the glaring hypocrisys I pointed out in relation to your own thoughts. I never said Catholics are heretics. I just pointed out the irony that you feel they were so inspired to bring about the Bible and there is no way that there are any errors in it, even while they were murdering people for even looking at it's pages, yet they were not inspired enough to understand it, so it was necessary for the world to start up 30,000 different Christian churches to correct them. You apparently feel parts of the Catholic doctrine is heresy, or you would be part of it. The other real irony is those that you praise for supposedly bringing forth a 100% pure Bible, would consider you a heretic for your current beliefs. So were they right before they were wrong, or were they wrong all along? You think all the churches were wrong before Joseph Smith came around. Why are you judging me by standards you don't keep yourself? What standards? I have freely and openly admitted that I feel the teachings in Bible has been somewhat corrupted and are not 100% the same as when they left Christ's and the Apostles mouths. Centuries of passing them down orally will do that to doctrine. It does contain God's truth, but like any other thing man has touched, is not as pure as it could be. And the New Testament wasn't passed down orally for centuries. It was written down by the Apostles before their deaths. Even the harshest atheists textual critics (like Bart Ehrman) admit they don't have evidence to change anything substantive. Ehrman admits "we're just tinkering at this point". Yet you'll believe a book where there are no historical manuscripts based on the promises of a convicted con-man and his relatives. So why are you holding me to a higher standard than you hold yourself again? |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:19:11 PM EDT
[#37]
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You don't sin? Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; "The poison of asps is under their lips”; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known.” 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God And: 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Man you gotta love these so called Christian threads. People come in and post recommending living a good life and helping others as Christ taught, not to earn salvation, but simply out of a love for God, and they are chastised by the OP, told that they are wrong and are essentially sinning by living or recommending that others live that way.
Christianity at it's finest. I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. So it seems I remember Jesus saying "Go and sin no more". It must have been important to Him that we no longer sinned since we saw He was our Savior and that we had accepted Him as so? Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; "The poison of asps is under their lips”; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known.” 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God And: 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. No one has ever said you won't have sin. That does not mean that you shouldn't try your hardest to live the commandments out of love for God. That is his greatest commandment, that you feel is a suggestion at best. Obeying the commandments WILL NOT earn you salvation, but not obeying them, even if you profess to believe, will condemn you. Just as happened to Judas. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:25:08 PM EDT
[#38]
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So you're trying to argue using a book you don't even believe. And the New Testament wasn't passed down orally for centuries. It was written down by the Apostles before their deaths. Even the harshest atheists textual critics (like Bart Ehrman) admit they don't have evidence to change anything substantive. Ehrman admits "we're just tinkering at this point". Yet you'll believe a book where there are no historical manuscripts based on the promises of a convicted con-man and his relatives. So why are you holding me to a higher standard than you hold yourself again? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What standards? I have freely and openly admitted that I feel the teachings in Bible has been somewhat corrupted and are not 100% the same as when they left Christ's and the Apostles mouths. Centuries of passing them down orally will do that to doctrine. It does contain God's truth, but like any other thing man has touched, is not as pure as it could be. So you're trying to argue using a book you don't even believe. And the New Testament wasn't passed down orally for centuries. It was written down by the Apostles before their deaths. Even the harshest atheists textual critics (like Bart Ehrman) admit they don't have evidence to change anything substantive. Ehrman admits "we're just tinkering at this point". Yet you'll believe a book where there are no historical manuscripts based on the promises of a convicted con-man and his relatives. So why are you holding me to a higher standard than you hold yourself again? Go back and look at my bold statement. I never said I don't believe in it. I just am smart enough to realize that when I see 30,000 different churches all professing different doctrine, and over 100 different English translations of the Bible, that something must have been corrupted in it to make it so difficult to understand and come to an agreement on. I believe God is a God of order and would have made his word plain and easy to understand. Due to errors of man though, we just look at the confusion that is Christianity today, and can plainly see, something was lost somewhere along the way. I believe in the Bible that we have, but believe God has also given us another witness of Christ's divinity to clarify the parts in the Bible that are lost or corrupted. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:25:15 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Reading your preconceptions into verses again I see. It doesn't say he "never" believed. You are adding that in. He obviously did believe at one point if he was willing to give up all his possessions, follow Christ, and have faith enough to perform miracles in his name. You must be smoking something if you think someone would give up all he had, if he didn't have belief in what he was doing. He eventually loved money more then Christ and sinned. Thus by his works, fell. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Again, Jesus says "he that believes in Me has eternal life", (John 6:47), and in the same chapter, it says Judas never believed (again verse 64), so what "fell" means, isn't salvation-related, because he never believed to have salvation in the first place. There are no contradictions in the Bible, it is you that is contradicting it. The Gospel isn't that hard. Remember Matthew 18:3, "the faith of little children"? Reading your preconceptions into verses again I see. It doesn't say he "never" believed. You are adding that in. He obviously did believe at one point if he was willing to give up all his possessions, follow Christ, and have faith enough to perform miracles in his name. You must be smoking something if you think someone would give up all he had, if he didn't have belief in what he was doing. He eventually loved money more then Christ and sinned. Thus by his works, fell. But you really, really have to prove Christ's promises in these verses wrong, because you can't bring yourself to believe in Christ alone: Luke 7:48-50 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. <o:p></o:p> Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. <o:p></o:p> Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. <o:p></o:p> John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. <o:p></o:p> John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: <o:p></o:p> John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. <o:p></o:p> John 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. <o:p></o:p> John 3:15-18 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. <o:p></o:p> John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. <o:p></o:p> John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did. <o:p></o:p> John 4:41-42 And many more believed because of his own word; And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. <o:p></o:p> John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. <o:p></o:p> John 5:45-47 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? <o:p></o:p> John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. <o:p></o:p> John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. <o:p></o:p> John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. <o:p></o:p> John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. <o:p></o:p> John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) <o:p></o:p> John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. <o:p></o:p> John 8:29-30 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him. <o:p></o:p> John 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. <o:p></o:p> John 10:24-26 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. <o:p></o:p> John 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him. <o:p></o:p> John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? <o:p></o:p> John 11:41-42 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. <o:p></o:p> John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. <o:p></o:p> John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. <o:p></o:p> John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. <o:p></o:p> John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. <o:p></o:p> John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. <o:p></o:p> John 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. <o:p></o:p> John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. <o:p></o:p> John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. <o:p></o:p> Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. <o:p></o:p> Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand. <o:p></o:p> Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. <o:p></o:p> Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. <o:p></o:p> Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. <o:p></o:p> Acts 9:42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord. <o:p></o:p> Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. <o:p></o:p> Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. <o:p></o:p> Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? <o:p></o:p> Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord. <o:p></o:p> Acts 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord. <o:p></o:p> Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. <o:p></o:p> Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed. <o:p></o:p> Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. <o:p></o:p> Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. <o:p></o:p> Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. <o:p></o:p> Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. <o:p></o:p> Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. <o:p></o:p> Acts 17:4-5 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. <o:p></o:p> Acts 17:11-12 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. <o:p></o:p> Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized. <o:p></o:p> Acts 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: <o:p></o:p> Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. <o:p></o:p> Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. <o:p></o:p> Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. <o:p></o:p> Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. <o:p></o:p> Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. <o:p></o:p> Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. <o:p></o:p> Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: <o:p></o:p> Romans 3:25-28 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. <o:p></o:p> Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. <o:p></o:p> Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. <o:p></o:p> Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. <o:p></o:p> Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. <o:p></o:p> Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: <o:p></o:p> Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. <o:p></o:p> Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, <o:p></o:p> Romans 4:23-24 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; <o:p></o:p> Romans 5:1-2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. <o:p></o:p> Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. <o:p></o:p> Romans 9:32-33 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. <o:p></o:p> Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. <o:p></o:p> Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) <o:p></o:p> Romans 10:8-10 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Salvation here means deliverance from temporal threats or God’s chastening) <o:p></o:p> Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: <o:p></o:p> Romans 11:30-32 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. <o:p></o:p> Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. <o:p></o:p> 1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. <o:p></o:p> 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. <o:p></o:p> Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. <o:p></o:p> Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. <o:p></o:p> Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? <o:p></o:p> Galatians 3:5-9 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. <o:p></o:p> Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. <o:p></o:p> Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. <o:p></o:p> Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. <o:p></o:p> Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. <o:p></o:p> Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. <o:p></o:p> Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. <o:p></o:p> Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, <o:p></o:p> Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, <o:p></o:p> Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: <o:p></o:p> Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, <o:p></o:p> Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; <o:p></o:p> Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: <o:p></o:p> 1 Thessalonians 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. <o:p></o:p> 1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: <o:p></o:p> 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. <o:p></o:p> 2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. <o:p></o:p> 2 Thessalonians 2:12-13 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: <o:p></o:p> 2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. <o:p></o:p> 1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. <o:p></o:p> 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. <o:p></o:p> 1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. <o:p></o:p> 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. <o:p></o:p> 2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. <o:p></o:p> 2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. <o:p></o:p> Hebrews 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. <o:p></o:p> Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. <o:p></o:p> Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. <o:p></o:p> Hebrews 11:6-7 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. <o:p></o:p> Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. <o:p></o:p> James 2:2-3 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: <o:p></o:p> 1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. <o:p></o:p> 1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. <o:p></o:p> 1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. <o:p></o:p> 1 Peter 2:6-7 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, <o:p></o:p> 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. <o:p></o:p> 1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? <o:p></o:p> 1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. <o:p></o:p> 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. <o:p></o:p> Jude 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. <o:p></o:p> |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:26:57 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus never taught that. He taught: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. and If ye love me, keep my commandments. So when I promote Jesus's own words, you say it is a sin to live that way. I will stick with Christ's words. He is the master. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Man you gotta love these so called Christian threads. People come in and post recommending living a good life and helping others as Christ taught, not to earn salvation, but simply out of a love for God, and they are chastised by the OP, told that they are wrong and are essentially sinning by living or recommending that others live that way. Christianity at it's finest. I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. Jesus never taught that. He taught: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. and If ye love me, keep my commandments. So when I promote Jesus's own words, you say it is a sin to live that way. I will stick with Christ's words. He is the master. Yes we should love the Lord, but salvation is only based on faith, as Christ taught. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:28:09 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No one has ever said you won't have sin. That does not mean that you shouldn't try your hardest to live the commandments out of love for God. That is his greatest commandment, that you feel is a suggestion at best. Obeying the commandments WILL NOT earn you salvation, but not obeying them, even if you profess to believe, will condemn you. Just as happened to Judas. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Man you gotta love these so called Christian threads. People come in and post recommending living a good life and helping others as Christ taught, not to earn salvation, but simply out of a love for God, and they are chastised by the OP, told that they are wrong and are essentially sinning by living or recommending that others live that way. Christianity at it's finest. I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. So it seems I remember Jesus saying "Go and sin no more". It must have been important to Him that we no longer sinned since we saw He was our Savior and that we had accepted Him as so? Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; "The poison of asps is under their lips”; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known.” 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God And: 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. No one has ever said you won't have sin. That does not mean that you shouldn't try your hardest to live the commandments out of love for God. That is his greatest commandment, that you feel is a suggestion at best. Obeying the commandments WILL NOT earn you salvation, but not obeying them, even if you profess to believe, will condemn you. Just as happened to Judas. And in response to Scripture that states you cannot follow the commandments, because they exist to show you that you are a sinner, not that you are a saint. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:28:15 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You don't sin? Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; "The poison of asps is under their lips”; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known.” 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God And: 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Man you gotta love these so called Christian threads. People come in and post recommending living a good life and helping others as Christ taught, not to earn salvation, but simply out of a love for God, and they are chastised by the OP, told that they are wrong and are essentially sinning by living or recommending that others live that way.
Christianity at it's finest. I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. So it seems I remember Jesus saying "Go and sin no more". It must have been important to Him that we no longer sinned since we saw He was our Savior and that we had accepted Him as so? Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; "The poison of asps is under their lips”; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known.” 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God And: 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. Of course I have sinned, and on occasion still do, but I always try and do what a good Christian would do and not sin. I also understand that this gift of being Saved is just that, a great Gift from God. He sacrificed his only Begotten Son so I and others may be saved which is incredible. But I don't now, nor ever will, believe that once I've accepted Jesus as my Savior, that I can go out and rape, rob, and murder at my will and then say "never mind" I'm off to heaven when I die. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:30:33 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So do you sin? Do you follow the commandments 100% of the time? Yes we should love the Lord, but salvation is only based on faith, as Christ taught. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Man you gotta love these so called Christian threads. People come in and post recommending living a good life and helping others as Christ taught, not to earn salvation, but simply out of a love for God, and they are chastised by the OP, told that they are wrong and are essentially sinning by living or recommending that others live that way.
Christianity at it's finest. I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. Jesus never taught that. He taught: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. and If ye love me, keep my commandments. So when I promote Jesus's own words, you say it is a sin to live that way.
I will stick with Christ's words. He is the master. Yes we should love the Lord, but salvation is only based on faith, as Christ taught. NO, and Christ doesn't expect us to live it 100% of the time, but as we can see from his commandments and own words, he expects us to try. Because we can't live perfectly, his grace will make up the difference and overcome those sins. You don't earn salvation, you are just living as Christ told you to, nut because he knows you can't do it perfectly, he is there to help you the rest of the way. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:30:39 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Go back and look at my bold statement. I never said I don't believe in it. I just am smart enough to realize that when I see 30,000 different churches all professing different doctrine, and over 100 different English translations of the Bible, that something must have been corrupted in it to make it so difficult to understand and come to an agreement on. I believe God is a God of order and would have made his word plain and easy to understand. Due to errors of man though, we just look at the confusion that is Christianity today, and can plainly see, something was lost somewhere along the way. I believe in the Bible that we have, but believe God has also given us another witness of Christ's divinity to clarify the parts in the Bible that are lost or corrupted. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: What standards? I have freely and openly admitted that I feel the teachings in Bible has been somewhat corrupted and are not 100% the same as when they left Christ's and the Apostles mouths. Centuries of passing them down orally will do that to doctrine. It does contain God's truth, but like any other thing man has touched, is not as pure as it could be. So you're trying to argue using a book you don't even believe. And the New Testament wasn't passed down orally for centuries. It was written down by the Apostles before their deaths. Even the harshest atheists textual critics (like Bart Ehrman) admit they don't have evidence to change anything substantive. Ehrman admits "we're just tinkering at this point". Yet you'll believe a book where there are no historical manuscripts based on the promises of a convicted con-man and his relatives. So why are you holding me to a higher standard than you hold yourself again? Go back and look at my bold statement. I never said I don't believe in it. I just am smart enough to realize that when I see 30,000 different churches all professing different doctrine, and over 100 different English translations of the Bible, that something must have been corrupted in it to make it so difficult to understand and come to an agreement on. I believe God is a God of order and would have made his word plain and easy to understand. Due to errors of man though, we just look at the confusion that is Christianity today, and can plainly see, something was lost somewhere along the way. I believe in the Bible that we have, but believe God has also given us another witness of Christ's divinity to clarify the parts in the Bible that are lost or corrupted. And apparently God isn't capable enough to guide the preservation of His word, which archaeology and textual criticism has shown He has been very good at. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:36:11 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of course I have sinned, and on occasion still do, but I always try and do what a good Christian would do and not sin. I also understand that this gift of being Saved is just that, a great Gift from God. He sacrificed his only Begotten Son so I and others may be saved which is incredible. But I don't now, nor ever will, believe that once I've accepted Jesus as my Savior, that I can go out and rape, rob, and murder at my will and then say "never mind" I'm off to heaven when I die. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Man you gotta love these so called Christian threads. People come in and post recommending living a good life and helping others as Christ taught, not to earn salvation, but simply out of a love for God, and they are chastised by the OP, told that they are wrong and are essentially sinning by living or recommending that others live that way. Christianity at it's finest. I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. So it seems I remember Jesus saying "Go and sin no more". It must have been important to Him that we no longer sinned since we saw He was our Savior and that we had accepted Him as so? Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; "The poison of asps is under their lips”; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known.” 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God And: 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. Of course I have sinned, and on occasion still do, but I always try and do what a good Christian would do and not sin. I also understand that this gift of being Saved is just that, a great Gift from God. He sacrificed his only Begotten Son so I and others may be saved which is incredible. But I don't now, nor ever will, believe that once I've accepted Jesus as my Savior, that I can go out and rape, rob, and murder at my will and then say "never mind" I'm off to heaven when I die. The fact is that Jesus was telling the Adulteress to stop sleeping around; not that she could actually sin no more in the absolute sense. Remember James 2:10: "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." So your failure to obey the law 100% means you haven't obeyed it. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:39:48 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NO, and Christ doesn't expect us to live it 100% of the time, but as we can see from his commandments and own words, he expects us to try. Because we can't live perfectly, his grace will make up the difference and overcome those sins. You don't earn salvation, you are just living as Christ told you to, nut because he knows you can't do it perfectly, he is there to help you the rest of the way. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Man you gotta love these so called Christian threads. People come in and post recommending living a good life and helping others as Christ taught, not to earn salvation, but simply out of a love for God, and they are chastised by the OP, told that they are wrong and are essentially sinning by living or recommending that others live that way. Christianity at it's finest. I'm simply saying salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. As Jesus taught. You seem to have a problem with this. Jesus never taught that. He taught: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. and If ye love me, keep my commandments. So when I promote Jesus's own words, you say it is a sin to live that way. I will stick with Christ's words. He is the master. Yes we should love the Lord, but salvation is only based on faith, as Christ taught. NO, and Christ doesn't expect us to live it 100% of the time, but as we can see from his commandments and own words, he expects us to try. Because we can't live perfectly, his grace will make up the difference and overcome those sins. You don't earn salvation, you are just living as Christ told you to, nut because he knows you can't do it perfectly, he is there to help you the rest of the way. Faith is simple trust. The issue isn't how big your faith is, it's who your faith is in; by saying you must perform to have faith, you've made yourself the object of faith; by believing in Christ's work alone despite any success or failure of your own, you've made Him the object of faith. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:42:21 PM EDT
[#47]
So answer this.
If faith is all that is needed, and you can't lose your salvation, why does the Bible even have commandments in it, given by Christ. Also, why would it even be necessary for the apostles to correct and chastize those who are already believers. Most of the New Testament is simply the apostles telling those who already believed, that they needed to change. If faith was all that mattered, no other teachings or corrections were even necessary. They could have just focused on finding people who didn't believe yet. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:54:26 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So answer this. If faith is all that is needed, and you can't lose your salvation, why does the Bible even have commandments in it, given by Christ. Also, why would it even be necessary for the apostles to correct and chastize those who are already believers. Most of the New Testament is simply the apostles telling those who already believed, that they needed to change. If faith was all that mattered, no other teachings or corrections were even necessary. They could have just focused on finding people who didn't believe yet. There is a difference between salvation and discipleship. Romans 8, Galatians 5, 2 Peter 1, and James 2 are about service and walking in the spirit, which we are given and the moment of belief in Christ, the Son of God, who is God in the flesh. God does bless those who walk in the Spirit, but you don't have the Spirit unless you are born again, and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which has nothing to do with man or his ceremonies, if you read the conversions in the Book of Acts). The Apostle correct believers because we can still sin, and we can still be carnal despite having been born again, this is because we retain the old carnal nature until we die, and the Apostles wanted to see people well rewarded in heaven. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:56:51 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:59:50 PM EDT
[#50]
Shorter version:
BTW I post this guy because he's the clearest communicator I've found, and he's got the Gospel right. |
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