I would too.

Man was born into sin and has a sin nature, God cannot accept anything that man does in his flesh. Just ask Cain.
When a man or woman is truly Born Again or Baptized into Christ. (Not water baptized) Rom 6:3-5 When your in Christ, then God does works in your heart which changes the outer man.
There will be a noticable change in a person " when God does His works in you." 1Peter 4:1-16

But you can't also judge a person's salvation by a standard they don't have to meet to be saved in the first place.

 

Argument for the sake of argument.



I cannot think of a situation where a person truly experiences Jesus Christ through faith, but chooses to live in the squalor of sin.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15:
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
In fact the bible is replete with examples. Again, Solomon worshiped demon gods who demanded child sacrifice. Samson slept wit prostitutes and heathen for 20 years while being a judge of Israel. Abraham sinned with Hagar. Then you have the Corinthians, and the Galatians, and 5 out of 7 churches in Revelation 2-3. Then you have Peter, who denied the Lord three times.
Even Paul admits he practiced sin:
Romans 7:19 "For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice." And this is a good translation, and it's in present tense.
Again, it goes back to 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Thus EVERY Christian is still a sinner, because we retain the sinful nature Paul talks about in Romans 7 and Galatians 5, until it dies and the nature we were born again with goes on to glory.  
 

I agree. I usually teach a class for the college at a local prison each semester. One of the privileges inmates can earn is going to chapel. You can tell the difference in the attitude and life they live from those that fake they're "new belief" so they can have something to do besides stay in a cell or dorm. Those that have truly changed and accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior always have that smile of contentment vs. those that lie about it.

Based on your preconception that salvation demands a change. Fact is, no one but God can know because it is by God's grace that someone is saved; it is not by the believer meeting a set of conditions.



In pretending that we can accurately "fruit inspect", we do what Paul said not to do in Romans 10:



6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, "‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

BTW the four perversions of grace:

Salvation is a change. And in that environment you can see it. Remember your talking about hardened criminals not everyday jokers that think they can give the church 10% and be saved while living a lie outside of the church. Which is fairly common with denominations that preach that once you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior you get a free pass. It is our daily actions, and accepting Jesus as our Savior, that point us in the right direction. God, and His son Jesus Christ, make the decision who gets into heaven; not you or I, or anyone else.

So..."by works you are saved". My Bible says the opposite:




 

I'm not gonna quote, but I'm refering to that chart.  That is not the definition of perseverance of the Saints, if it is refering to the T in tulip.  If something else nevermind.

YChapter XVII

Of the Perseverance of the Saints

I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

The chart addresses the practical application of these doctrines. In practical Calvinism, if someone 'falls hard', they failed to persevere, and thus they were never saved; therefore, you have Calvinists doing the same thing as Arminians, and effectively working for salvation, while denying they can work for salvation (like Arminians). It's logically inconsistent and not supported by in-context scripture.  
 

Why do you misinterpret what people say? Your logic basically says that a person can believe in Jesus as their Savior and be a lying, cheating, murderer, spouse cheating, bank robbing, child molesting piece of trash, and still go to heaven. You and I must have different Gods. I will say that I believe a person can do all those things, then "find" Jesus and live a good life after that and go to heaven. Which to me means they have been forgiven for their actions just not their beliefs.

He never said you were saved because of your works.   Works won't save you,  but not doing good works will condemn you.  

1st and greatest commandment:  LOVE GOD

How do we obey that commandment:   "IF YE LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS".  

We must obey the commandments to the best of our ability as Christ tells us to.  His telling us to "BE YE THEREFORE PERFECT" was not just a suggestion.   We should do all we can to obey his commandments.  

We do that out of love for God,  not to earn salvation.  Even if we obey the commandments, the best we can,  we will all still fall and sin.  No one will be worthy of Gods presence. no matter how much good or bad we have done, we will all be damned without Christ. That is where the grace comes in.  Only through the grace of Christ, can he overcome those sins for us and save us.  

So yes,  I agree 100% with you in relation to Ephesians:
Ephesians 2:8 For by GRACE you HAVE been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

It is by Grace we are saved. It is not our works that save us.    Nothing we do will save us, but that which we don't do will condemn us.



The problem is, you ignore the other 99% of the Bible that tells us that we must obey the commandments,  and repent of our sins.  You sound like the people Paul was talking to when in Romans he said:"Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid."

You ignore the parts that talk about Christ judging us according to what we have done, not what we believed.

 II Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that everyone may receive a reward of the deeds done in the body; things according to what he hath done, whether good or bad.

 Matthew 12:31 And again I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.





Trying to say that our actions and obeying the commandments are not important is ANTI-CHRIST.   As you are trying to teach the exact opposite of what Christ himself taught.

 

If you think the Bible is 99% following the law to be saved, you haven't read much of it, which is shown by your comment about what anti-Christ is, which the Bible states is anyone that denies that Jesus is the Christ. Most of it is how we CAN'T be justified by the Law, since no man can keep it.



I guess Paul was antichrist according to you:












 

The tax collector showed repentance.  That is not what saved him, his faith did, but he did show it.  How do you know the tax collector was still a tax collector?  In his repentance he may have changed his ways.  Don't add to the Bible.

Did Jesus say he stopped tax collecting? No. Therefore assuming otherwise is in fact adding to scripture.  

 

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:21-22

So reason trying to keep the law is sinful is that God (and our own consciences) has already declared that we are sinners. So there is nothing wrong with the law other than our inability to keep it, which makes it sinful for us to try to keep it when God has made a way to justify us by faith.

I didn't say he stopped either.  I said you don't know he continued.  OR that he was a dishonest tax collector...maybe he was an honest tax collector who was confessing of his sin of breaking the Sabbath...I am betting he was a dishonest tax collector and had been greedy and stolen, but I don't know for sure..

Negative.  Trying to keep the law is not sinfull.  Trying to keep the law in order to earn salvation is sinful.  The law is a reflection of Gods holiness. ( the moral and civil law) if I try not to commit adultery, that is not sinfull.  If I think I must never commit adultery so I can get to heaven, that is sinful.

I don't know why you keep pushing that we are claiming we are saved or justified by following the "law"    We have never claimed that and never will.    The doctrine of "saved by works"  is not something I or any church I know of is professing.   It is an inaccurate idea created by people like you trying to slander others beliefs.

The gospel is much more simple then you are making it out to be.    Christ himself taught the greatest commandment is to LOVE GOD, and we do that by keeping his commandments.    We are not keeping the commandments to earn salvation.  We do it out of love for God.   Teaching that his commandments don't matter is ANTI-CHRIST.

Maybe there are people out there that follow the commandments for other reasons,  but in the end, it will profiteth them nothing.  

God does expect us to keep his commandments though, the best we can, and the Bible is very clear that we will be judged by our works whether good or evil.    As I said several times, the good we do will not earn us salvation,  but the sins we commit will condemn us, unless we repent of them and allow Christ to cleanse us through his grace.

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.



So yes,  we are not justified by the law,  but we are justified by our works.   They do matter.  Those that claim to be "saved" in this life yet continue in sin, assuming that grace will abound, are going to have an eye-opener at judgement day.




The gospel of Christ is this.  

1.Love God
2.Show that love by following his commandments the best one is able.
3. Have faith in Christ that his grace will overcome your mistakes and sins,where you fall short.

Simple as that.  If one does those things,  they will have no need to worry.

Or you can try and justify #2 away like you do in an anti-Christ like fashion, with all sorts of graphs and videos, and  scriptural spin.    

Christ's words are very simple and easy to understand, even for a 3 year old:  "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Yet most in Christiandom think that they must be "good people" to be saved, have "genuine faith", keep the commandments and/or do good works to not lose salvation, etc.

 

I guess if you are obeying the commandments or being a good person for the sole reason that you think you must do it or you will not be saved, then it is for the wrong reason.  I guess that is what happens with all the hell fire and damnation style preaching we see going on in many Christian churches.    People obey out of fear.


The other option is teaching people to obey the commandments simply out of love for God.    The same reason Abraham was willing to obey when the Lord commanded.  Not out of fear,  but of Love for God.  That is the type of obedience the Lord expects.

 

So again, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. If we are saved by faith (trust) alone then it means that faith saves even if it's alone...otherwise it's not faith alone.



 

NO it is not double speak.      By your definition then,  the Bible is full of contradictions and double speak.   Christ himself told us to obey his commandments.   The bible says we are justified by our works,  yet you say we are not.  



You are not saved by your works.  Only Christ's grace can save you.   But for us to accept that grace,  he expects us live our lives in a certain manner.     "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"   Then by grace ye are saved.

Our following the commandments out of love for him is us reaching out and accepting the free gift of grace he offers.      Those that ignore the commandments and choose sin,  fail to reach out and grasp the free gift offered them.  


You seem to have the mindset that obeying the commandments is like a job or something. it is not.  It comes down to simply how one chooses to live their life.  Those that love the Lord and choose to follow his commandments,  don't see what they are doing as "work".  it is simply living as Christ taught.    It is not a matter of "you have 100 sins and 101 good works, so you get to go to heaven".   Christ knows our hearts.  He sees if we are obeying out of love.  Those that love him and live as he asked,  will receive his free gift of grace unto salvation.

Ask the Bible on that one:

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"


You keep seeming to imply that I am claiming our works save us.  THEY DON'T.   That does not mean they are not important though like you seem to say.    No matter how anyone lives their lives,  they are still sinful and are damned without Christ.  

You seem to belief a simple lip acceptance of Christ is sufficient to receive his grace.   I could read the postcard a church sent me with the sinners prayer on it and "BOOM, I am saved".  

I believe Christ's own words:"If ye love me, keep my commandments."   I believe that by showing our love for him, by obeying his commandments, is how he blesses us with his grace.  It doesn't cost us anything.   Through our works and not faith only are we then justified to receive the gift of his grace.   The works don't save us,  Christ's grace does, AFTER we have justified ourselves  as James says.

I can't believe you're saying that following our Father's loving instructions, that He gave us for our benefit, is sin.
Did our Savior tell the woman accused of adultery, your sins are forgiven, go, and keep on sinning?
If your own son, out of love for you, and knowing that what you are telling him is right, obeys your wishes, would that be sin too?

Obedience leads to blessings.

Deut. 30:9 Then the Lord your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your cattle and in the produce of your ground, for the Lord will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers; 10 if you obey the Lord your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.

11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

One of these blessings of obedience is that He will show us more of His truth. Just think of how much more He would show you if you were obedient!

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.

Here is a summary of how it seems you feel the gospel works.





Sorry if many disagree with you.

It's no wonder that that doctrine is mocked by other faiths

The bolded part is a stellar example of doublespeak. You call it a "free gift" and deny it's by works, but if you don't work by following the commandments then you don't get that "free" gift you have to work for.





I don't think you understand how everyone breaks the commandments. Let me post the scripture again:





Matthew 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."





So have you ever taken that second look at a attractive woman? Ever fantasized about a woman that wasn't your wife? That's adultery according to Jesus. And have you ever hated someone? Matthew 5:21-22 says that's murder.





Ever though of yourself better or more righteous than someone else? That's pride. Luke 18:9-14, Matthew 23, Isaiah 14.





Ever wanted something that wasn't yours? That's covetousness.





That's the point, you CAN'T follow the Law. Sin is sin, according to James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."





Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. - Gal 3:21-22




 

I've already addressed James 2 several times in this thread. Read the context.



Justified to whom? Not to God, or else you have contradicted Romans 4:2-8:



2 For IF Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, the wages are NOT COUNTED AS GRACE but as debt. 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK BUT BELIEVES ON HIM who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness APART from works.



However, if you read the actual context, James 2:14-26 isn't about justification before God for eternal life, or again, it contradicts Romans 4:2-8. It's about service and justification of one's faith in the sight of men, as seen by the context given in verses 1-13. By "dead" he means useless, not "non-existent" or "false", see the analogy in verse 26. A body without a spirit is still a body, just as faith without works is still faith.

The issue is that I have read the Bible:





Let's review:





Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to EVERYONE who BELIEVES

 





Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, THROUGH the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.





Ephesians 2:8-9: For by GRACE you HAVE been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT of God, 9 NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast





Galatians 3:10: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith.” 12 YET THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH, but "the man who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit THROUGH FAITH.





Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; FOR THROUGH THE LAW COMES THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through FAITH in Jesus Christ, to all and ON ALL WHO BELIEVE. For there is no difference; 23 FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD, 24 being JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the JUSTIFIER OF THE ONE WHO HAS FAITH IN JESUS. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but BY THE LAW OF FAITH. 28 Therefore we conclude that A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH APART FROM THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.





Yet we have people claiming that if you don't follow the Law you aren't saved. The problem is that anyone who is honest with themselves in regards to their own failures knows they CAN'T follow the Law.




So where does sin come in? It effects the spiritual growth and discipleship of the believer. God chastens. However, we are talking about the Gospel and salvation here, the issue of sin in a Christian's life is one of sanctification, and does not effect their justification/salvation.

 

It's called grace, which means "unmerited favor". If you can merit it then it's not grace; see Romans 11:6:



"And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

And therein lies the problem.   You consider obeying the commandments as work.  it is not.  Grace It is a free gift.    If we show our love for Christ by simply living as he taught.  The gift is  there for us.  



You talk about context, but ignore the biggest clue of all.  Christs own words.  

Have you ever possibly considered for a moment that James 2 doesn't contradict Romans 4,  but that Romans 4 is in contradiction with James 2?


Of course if you have two options when you see that contradiction

1.   Obey Christ's commandments, to be justified to receive his grace unto salvation.  

OR

2.  Do whatever the heck you want, say a few words,  and all is good in the end

The natural carnal man is going to do all he can to perform scriptural gymnastics to justify the "easy" way. he will come up with all sorts of graphs and videos to try and justify his position so that he can do as little as possible and hope that Grace will abound.

But


If you look at the two in the context of Christ's words, the answer becomes so clear a 3 year old could understand it.:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
and
If ye love me, keep my commandments.


You look at it with that context,  it becomes clear what the proper route is.

It's sad that some see Christ's words and say as you have that it is a sin to follow them.   That truly is anti-Christ.

First, not only are keeping the commandments "work" per what I already posted:





Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH APART FROM THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.





So yes, following the commandments (the Law) is work, since it is something you accomplish.


 

I wonder if this is the same as Sunni and Shia fighting?

Well I don't explode, so....


 

I'm glad you don't. I guess it's just amazing to me that it seems the Reformation hasn't ended after 500 years.

So now you are arguing that the apostles have different rules or commandments then we do?   So they must follow the commandments to show their love for God,  but if we do it, it is a sin?

You could just as easily  apply that same line of reasoning to the verse in Ephesians. The people at that time believed they could earn salvation through works and we're giving instructions specific to them. That does not mean you should base your whole view of Salvation on what they were told.
Or while doing your scriptural gymnastics, are you just selectively choosing which verses you feel apply to you and which ones don't?

Now that's DOUBLESPEAK.

I guess you feel for us, it is just the first and greatest suggestion.






Show me anywhere in the red scripture above where it says that good works are not needed.     It only states  good works don't save you, which is true.   Maybe you assume some people get the idea that if they do 100 good works and 99 bad ones,  they think they earn their way into heaven.   That is what that scripture applies to.  

It does not say,  by grace you are saved, so do whatever the hell you want.  

As I have stated many times,  no matter how much good we do,  we will all still sin.  That does not mean we shouldn't try.

Those works though,  the ones Christ commands us to do,   justify us to receive grace as it says in Romans.


NOWHERE in the Bible does it say not to obey the commandments.   Many places it talks about how we will be judged by our works.  Romans tells us we are justified by our works and not faith alone.  




Anti-Christ has multiple meanings.  In its simplest form, it means against Christ.  If you are saying it is a sin to obey his words and follow his commandments,  then you are against him.


You have said in the past that some people worship a "different Jesus"  than you.   The more I hear you speak, I agree.

I believe in the Jesus of the Bible that tells people to Love God by obeying his commandments, do good things, and help others.  



I guess you believe in a Jesus that says it's a sin to do those things.

So you do pretty much agree with the whole premise of that cartoon?

To many, being a Christian means much more than that, and I think you will find a good many mainstream Christians will disagree with you on your view, that it is that easy to receive the grace of Christ.

The problem is flawed humans being flawed humans while denying just how deeply flawed humans are.

 

Dude I've been telling you that you worship a different Jesus since we got into discussions about religion. Your Jesus is a created being, the real Jesus is eternal.



Now it's apparent you have no understanding of what I'm saying: which is that Salvation by grace through faith alone means we are rescued from eternal condemnation (saved) by the unmerited favor of God (grace) by faith (trust) in Christ's work without any requirement of work on our own part.



And as I already quoted to you, the Bible says that our work, to include following the law, has no effect on grace or faith. In fact, as I already quoted to you, trying to make it so actually condemns the one doing it:

I hope you realize that is basically the story of the Thief on the Cross.





 

I think more Sandemanianism or Antinomianism debates.  Nothing to do with the Reformation.

But didn't both of those aspects develop from the split formed by the Reformation ?

They happened after, yes.  I was refering to the Catholic /Protestant debates during the reformation.

The irony is that Calvin was called an antinomian.



The issue is that people can't separate sanctification (discipleship) from salvation, they think salvation is dependent on sanctification in some way.

 

Not me. Or anyone who holds to the WCF