Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Site Notices
Page / 8
Next Page Arrow Left
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 6:01:58 PM EDT
[#1]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


You've confuse discipleship with salvation, you're assuming they're the same thing, and that's why you're telling me that, "Obeying the commandments WILL NOT earn you salvation, but not obeying them, even if you profess to believe, will condemn you." Which is to say that we are saved by works even though we aren't saved by works. It's inherently contradictory.

Faith is simple trust. The issue isn't how big your faith is, it's who your faith is in; by saying you must perform to have faith, you've made yourself the object of faith; by believing in Christ's work alone despite any success or failure of your own, you've made Him the object of faith.




 
View Quote


And that is where you are inherently contradictory. You're telling me a man that gave up all of his possessions, followed Christ,  and performed miracles in his name, did not have a "simple trust".

You can actually sit there with a straight face and say someone that did all that did not have a "simple trust"? If so, then there is no reason in you.

You are willing to ignore reason, just so the rest of what you consider your gospel will fit. But if you use logic and reason it is pretty evident that someone would have had a great deal of faith at least at one point in order to do that.

You ignore logic and reason when the Bible says because of his transgression he fell because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion that you can't lose your salvation.  

If you use logic and reason it means that Judas'so works actually had an effect towards his salvation, but because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion, you're willing to ignore the logic and reason

Link Posted: 5/12/2016 6:09:49 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
As Romans 3 tells us, the commandments exist to convict us if sin, not to make us righteous. They show us the character of God and how we fall short.

  There is a difference between salvation and discipleship. Romans 8, Galatians 5, 2 Peter 1, and James 2 are about service and walking in the spirit, which we are given and the moment of belief in Christ, the Son of God, who is God in the flesh. God does bless those who walk in the Spirit, but you don't have the Spirit unless you are born again, and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which has nothing to do with man or his ceremonies, if you read the conversions in the Book of Acts).  

The Apostle correct believers because we can still sin, and we can still be carnal despite having been born again, this is because we retain the old carnal nature until we die, and the Apostles wanted to see people well rewarded in heaven.  

https://youtu.be/TyEbXr-RSUE



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
So answer this.  

If faith is all that is needed, and you can't lose your salvation,  why does the Bible even have commandments in it, given by Christ.

Also,  why would it even be necessary for the apostles to correct and chastize those who are already believers.  

Most of the New Testament is simply the apostles telling those who already believed, that they needed to change.  If faith was all that mattered,  no other teachings or corrections were even necessary. They could have just focused on finding people who didn't believe yet.
As Romans 3 tells us, the commandments exist to convict us if sin, not to make us righteous. They show us the character of God and how we fall short.

  There is a difference between salvation and discipleship. Romans 8, Galatians 5, 2 Peter 1, and James 2 are about service and walking in the spirit, which we are given and the moment of belief in Christ, the Son of God, who is God in the flesh. God does bless those who walk in the Spirit, but you don't have the Spirit unless you are born again, and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which has nothing to do with man or his ceremonies, if you read the conversions in the Book of Acts).  

The Apostle correct believers because we can still sin, and we can still be carnal despite having been born again, this is because we retain the old carnal nature until we die, and the Apostles wanted to see people well rewarded in heaven.  

https://youtu.be/TyEbXr-RSUE





So you look at the Commandments from a glass-half-empty perspective. I see them as a glass-half-full, in that Christ is showing us what we can become if we obey his Commandments. That fits right in line with his commandment to" be therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect"

You see the commandants as something because we can't live perfectly, we don't even need to try.

I see them as something God told us to do because we love him and we should do all we can to obey them for that reason.


See, there you are again with your doublespeak. You claim all that is needed is a simple Trust. The disciples would have that, and if so would already have salvation according to you, thus there would be no need to correct them in their ways, it works don't matter.

So now you are saying works matter in order to get rewards in heaven? Obeying the Commandments will get you extra credit?

I guess if you have faith you go to heaven, but if you do good works, you go to a super heaven or something?
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 6:11:55 PM EDT
[#3]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
And that is where you are inherently contradictory. You're telling me a man that gave up all of his possessions, followed Christ,  and performed miracles in his name, did not have a "simple trust".



You can actually sit there with a straight face and say someone that did all that did not have a "simple trust"? If so, then there is no reason in you.



You are willing to ignore reason, just so the rest of what you consider your gospel will fit. But if you use logic and reason it is pretty evident that someone would have had a great deal of faith at least at one point in order to do that.



You ignore logic and reason when the Bible says because of his transgression he fell because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion that you can't lose your salvation.  



If you use logic and reason it means that Judas'so works actually had an effect towards his salvation, but because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion, you're willing to ignore the logic and reason



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:





You've confuse discipleship with salvation, you're assuming they're the same thing, and that's why you're telling me that, "Obeying the commandments WILL NOT earn you salvation, but not obeying them, even if you profess to believe, will condemn you." Which is to say that we are saved by works even though we aren't saved by works. It's inherently contradictory.



Faith is simple trust. The issue isn't how big your faith is, it's who your faith is in; by saying you must perform to have faith, you've made yourself the object of faith; by believing in Christ's work alone despite any success or failure of your own, you've made Him the object of faith.
 




And that is where you are inherently contradictory. You're telling me a man that gave up all of his possessions, followed Christ,  and performed miracles in his name, did not have a "simple trust".



You can actually sit there with a straight face and say someone that did all that did not have a "simple trust"? If so, then there is no reason in you.



You are willing to ignore reason, just so the rest of what you consider your gospel will fit. But if you use logic and reason it is pretty evident that someone would have had a great deal of faith at least at one point in order to do that.



You ignore logic and reason when the Bible says because of his transgression he fell because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion that you can't lose your salvation.  



If you use logic and reason it means that Judas'so works actually had an effect towards his salvation, but because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion, you're willing to ignore the logic and reason



I'm basing Judas' lack of faith on what is stated in the Bible; you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with God's word.



And that's because you HAVE to believe that Judas' works got him somewhere, because you want to believe your own works can get you somewhere too. That's why you have to appeal to "logic and reason", yet God said,

"8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9).



And:



18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (1 Corinthians 1)
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 6:19:34 PM EDT
[#4]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
See, there you are again with your doublespeak. You claim all that is needed is a simple Trust. The disciples would have that, and if so would already have salvation according to you, thus there would be no need to correct them in their ways, it works don't matter.





So now you are saying works matter in order to get rewards in heaven? Obeying the Commandments will get you extra credit?





I guess if you have faith you go to heaven, but if you do good works, you go to a super heaven or something?


View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





Quoted:




Quoted:


So answer this.  





If faith is all that is needed, and you can't lose your salvation,  why does the Bible even have commandments in it, given by Christ.





Also,  why would it even be necessary for the apostles to correct and chastize those who are already believers.  





Most of the New Testament is simply the apostles telling those who already believed, that they needed to change.  If faith was all that mattered,  no other teachings or corrections were even necessary. They could have just focused on finding people who didn't believe yet.


As Romans 3 tells us, the commandments exist to convict us if sin, not to make us righteous. They show us the character of God and how we fall short.





  There is a difference between salvation and discipleship. Romans 8, Galatians 5, 2 Peter 1, and James 2 are about service and walking in the spirit, which we are given and the moment of belief in Christ, the Son of God, who is God in the flesh. God does bless those who walk in the Spirit, but you don't have the Spirit unless you are born again, and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which has nothing to do with man or his ceremonies, if you read the conversions in the Book of Acts).  





The Apostle correct believers because we can still sin, and we can still be carnal despite having been born again, this is because we retain the old carnal nature until we die, and the Apostles wanted to see people well rewarded in heaven.  





https://youtu.be/TyEbXr-RSUE






See, there you are again with your doublespeak. You claim all that is needed is a simple Trust. The disciples would have that, and if so would already have salvation according to you, thus there would be no need to correct them in their ways, it works don't matter.





So now you are saying works matter in order to get rewards in heaven? Obeying the Commandments will get you extra credit?





I guess if you have faith you go to heaven, but if you do good works, you go to a super heaven or something?





Again, you equate simple trust with works, and discipleship with salvation. Believers already have salvation (by faith alone), but they are still discipled, which is work. However one does not equal the other.





As for rewards:





Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.





Matthew 5:11-12 "Blessed are you when men cast insults at you, and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me. Rejoice, and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”





Matthew 6:1-6 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. When therefore you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you. And when you pray, you are not to be as the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners, in order to be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will repay you.”





Matthew 6:16-18 "And whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance in order to be seen fasting by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you fast, anoint your head, and wash your face so that you may not be seen fasting by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you.”








Matthew 6:20 "But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal…”





And don't pretend that I don't know that you actually believe you get super-special VIP heaven if you do all that the Mormon church requires of you.





My reward will be the approval if Christ, and maybe the joy in meeting someone who is there because God planted a seed through me. These are rewards that moth and rust don't destroy.




 








 
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 6:24:18 PM EDT
[#5]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm basing Judas' lack of faith on what is stated in the Bible; you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with God's word.

And that's because you HAVE to believe that Judas' works got him somewhere, because you want to believe your own works can get you somewhere too. That's why you have to appeal to "logic and reason", yet God said,
"8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9).

And:

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (1 Corinthians 1)
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


You've confuse discipleship with salvation, you're assuming they're the same thing, and that's why you're telling me that, "Obeying the commandments WILL NOT earn you salvation, but not obeying them, even if you profess to believe, will condemn you." Which is to say that we are saved by works even though we aren't saved by works. It's inherently contradictory.

Faith is simple trust. The issue isn't how big your faith is, it's who your faith is in; by saying you must perform to have faith, you've made yourself the object of faith; by believing in Christ's work alone despite any success or failure of your own, you've made Him the object of faith.




 


And that is where you are inherently contradictory. You're telling me a man that gave up all of his possessions, followed Christ,  and performed miracles in his name, did not have a "simple trust".

You can actually sit there with a straight face and say someone that did all that did not have a "simple trust"? If so, then there is no reason in you.

You are willing to ignore reason, just so the rest of what you consider your gospel will fit. But if you use logic and reason it is pretty evident that someone would have had a great deal of faith at least at one point in order to do that.

You ignore logic and reason when the Bible says because of his transgression he fell because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion that you can't lose your salvation.  

If you use logic and reason it means that Judas'so works actually had an effect towards his salvation, but because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion, you're willing to ignore the logic and reason

I'm basing Judas' lack of faith on what is stated in the Bible; you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with God's word.

And that's because you HAVE to believe that Judas' works got him somewhere, because you want to believe your own works can get you somewhere too. That's why you have to appeal to "logic and reason", yet God said,
"8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9).

And:

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (1 Corinthians 1)


I'm not arguing with God's word, I'm arguing with your interpretation of it. I've already shown where you've added words to fit your preconceived notions. People change their beliefs in things all the time. His actions when he was chosen to be an apostle, demonstrate his faith and belief." show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."  He showed his faith by giving up all he had and following Christ.

He lost that belief along the way though, and thus the scripture is accurate when it says he did not believe. It does not say he never believed.

Thus my interpretation of that, in line with the scripture that says because of his transgression, he fell, is potentially just as right, and would mean that works are important,even if they don't earn you salvation.
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 6:46:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


And don't pretend that I don't know that you actually believe you get super-special VIP heaven if you do all that the Mormon church Christ requires of you.




 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So answer this.  

If faith is all that is needed, and you can't lose your salvation,  why does the Bible even have commandments in it, given by Christ.

Also,  why would it even be necessary for the apostles to correct and chastize those who are already believers.  

Most of the New Testament is simply the apostles telling those who already believed, that they needed to change.  If faith was all that mattered,  no other teachings or corrections were even necessary. They could have just focused on finding people who didn't believe yet.
As Romans 3 tells us, the commandments exist to convict us if sin, not to make us righteous. They show us the character of God and how we fall short.

  There is a difference between salvation and discipleship. Romans 8, Galatians 5, 2 Peter 1, and James 2 are about service and walking in the spirit, which we are given and the moment of belief in Christ, the Son of God, who is God in the flesh. God does bless those who walk in the Spirit, but you don't have the Spirit unless you are born again, and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which has nothing to do with man or his ceremonies, if you read the conversions in the Book of Acts).  

The Apostle correct believers because we can still sin, and we can still be carnal despite having been born again, this is because we retain the old carnal nature until we die, and the Apostles wanted to see people well rewarded in heaven.  

https://youtu.be/TyEbXr-RSUE





See, there you are again with your doublespeak. You claim all that is needed is a simple Trust. The disciples would have that, and if so would already have salvation according to you, thus there would be no need to correct them in their ways, it works don't matter.

So now you are saying works matter in order to get rewards in heaven? Obeying the Commandments will get you extra credit?

I guess if you have faith you go to heaven, but if you do good works, you go to a super heaven or something?


And don't pretend that I don't know that you actually believe you get super-special VIP heaven if you do all that the Mormon church Christ requires of you.




 


It's not any more special then the third heaven mentioned in the Bible.
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 6:49:03 PM EDT
[#7]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not arguing with God's word, I'm arguing with your interpretation of it. I've already shown where you've added words to fit your preconceived notions. People change their beliefs in things all the time. His actions when he was chosen to be an apostle, demonstrate his faith and belief. He lost that belief along the way though, and thus the scripture is accurate when it says he did not believe. It does not say he never believed.



Thus my interpretation of that, in line with the scripture that says because of his transgression, he fell, is potentially just as right, and would mean that works are important,even if they don't earn you salvation.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:





You've confuse discipleship with salvation, you're assuming they're the same thing, and that's why you're telling me that, "Obeying the commandments WILL NOT earn you salvation, but not obeying them, even if you profess to believe, will condemn you." Which is to say that we are saved by works even though we aren't saved by works. It's inherently contradictory.



Faith is simple trust. The issue isn't how big your faith is, it's who your faith is in; by saying you must perform to have faith, you've made yourself the object of faith; by believing in Christ's work alone despite any success or failure of your own, you've made Him the object of faith.
 




And that is where you are inherently contradictory. You're telling me a man that gave up all of his possessions, followed Christ,  and performed miracles in his name, did not have a "simple trust".



You can actually sit there with a straight face and say someone that did all that did not have a "simple trust"? If so, then there is no reason in you.



You are willing to ignore reason, just so the rest of what you consider your gospel will fit. But if you use logic and reason it is pretty evident that someone would have had a great deal of faith at least at one point in order to do that.



You ignore logic and reason when the Bible says because of his transgression he fell because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion that you can't lose your salvation.  



If you use logic and reason it means that Judas'so works actually had an effect towards his salvation, but because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion, you're willing to ignore the logic and reason



I'm basing Judas' lack of faith on what is stated in the Bible; you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with God's word.



And that's because you HAVE to believe that Judas' works got him somewhere, because you want to believe your own works can get you somewhere too. That's why you have to appeal to "logic and reason", yet God said,

"8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9).



And:



18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (1 Corinthians 1)




I'm not arguing with God's word, I'm arguing with your interpretation of it. I've already shown where you've added words to fit your preconceived notions. People change their beliefs in things all the time. His actions when he was chosen to be an apostle, demonstrate his faith and belief. He lost that belief along the way though, and thus the scripture is accurate when it says he did not believe. It does not say he never believed.



Thus my interpretation of that, in line with the scripture that says because of his transgression, he fell, is potentially just as right, and would mean that works are important,even if they don't earn you salvation.
Which is an interpretation, because it not only says Judas did not believe, it doesn't say he ever did, and that works don't save so you can't say that Judas' works were evidence of faith.  



And in asserting this you are contradicting Jesus himself:

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; neither shall ANYONE snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and NO ONE is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”



So either Judas believed and was saved despite his betrayal, which is not supported by the Bible, or he didn't believe like the Bible does say, and thus not saved. You are basically arguing from silence on Judas.



As for the bolded part, we are still saved despite not having ANY works (Romans 4:5-6).



Link Posted: 5/12/2016 6:50:04 PM EDT
[#8]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It's not any more special then the third heaven mentioned in the Bible.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

So answer this.  



If faith is all that is needed, and you can't lose your salvation,  why does the Bible even have commandments in it, given by Christ.



Also,  why would it even be necessary for the apostles to correct and chastize those who are already believers.  



Most of the New Testament is simply the apostles telling those who already believed, that they needed to change.  If faith was all that mattered,  no other teachings or corrections were even necessary. They could have just focused on finding people who didn't believe yet.

As Romans 3 tells us, the commandments exist to convict us if sin, not to make us righteous. They show us the character of God and how we fall short.



  There is a difference between salvation and discipleship. Romans 8, Galatians 5, 2 Peter 1, and James 2 are about service and walking in the spirit, which we are given and the moment of belief in Christ, the Son of God, who is God in the flesh. God does bless those who walk in the Spirit, but you don't have the Spirit unless you are born again, and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which has nothing to do with man or his ceremonies, if you read the conversions in the Book of Acts).  



The Apostle correct believers because we can still sin, and we can still be carnal despite having been born again, this is because we retain the old carnal nature until we die, and the Apostles wanted to see people well rewarded in heaven.  



https://youtu.be/TyEbXr-RSUE




See, there you are again with your doublespeak. You claim all that is needed is a simple Trust. The disciples would have that, and if so would already have salvation according to you, thus there would be no need to correct them in their ways, it works don't matter.



So now you are saying works matter in order to get rewards in heaven? Obeying the Commandments will get you extra credit?



I guess if you have faith you go to heaven, but if you do good works, you go to a super heaven or something?





And don't pretend that I don't know that you actually believe you get super-special VIP heaven if you do all that the Mormon church Christ requires of you.
 




It's not any more special then the third heaven mentioned in the Bible.
You mean Paradise, that the Thief on the Cross went to solely on the basis of faith?

 
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 6:53:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You mean Paradise, that the Thief on the Cross went to solely on the basis of faith?  
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


It's not any more special then the third heaven mentioned in the Bible.
You mean Paradise, that the Thief on the Cross went to solely on the basis of faith?  


That's not where he went according to the Bible.  Unless the 3rd heaven is a place where the father doesn't dwell.

Again you are interpreting based on your pre-conceived notions.
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 6:57:44 PM EDT
[#10]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That's not where he went according to the Bible.  Unless the 3rd heaven is a place where the father doesn't dwell.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:





It's not any more special then the third heaven mentioned in the Bible.
You mean Paradise, that the Thief on the Cross went to solely on the basis of faith?  




That's not where he went according to the Bible.  Unless the 3rd heaven is a place where the father doesn't dwell.

Again, Paul says it is, and he checked for himself in 2 Corinthians 12.



The only way you can really reconcile Christ not going to the Father, yet the Thief still being with Him that day (which ended at sundown in Jewish culture) in Paradise/Third Heaven/throne of God, is to accept that Christ and the Father are the same.




Link Posted: 5/12/2016 7:25:01 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Again, Paul says it is, and he checked for himself in 2 Corinthians 12.

The only way you can really reconcile Christ not going to the Father, yet the Thief still being with Him that day (which ended at sundown in Jewish culture) in Paradise/Third Heaven/throne of God, is to accept that Christ and the Father are the same.


View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


It's not any more special then the third heaven mentioned in the Bible.
You mean Paradise, that the Thief on the Cross went to solely on the basis of faith?  


That's not where he went according to the Bible.  Unless the 3rd heaven is a place where the father doesn't dwell.
Again, Paul says it is, and he checked for himself in 2 Corinthians 12.

The only way you can really reconcile Christ not going to the Father, yet the Thief still being with Him that day (which ended at sundown in Jewish culture) in Paradise/Third Heaven/throne of God, is to accept that Christ and the Father are the same.





You are assuming he is talking about the same place based on your pre-conceived notions.  There are many, even other mainstream Christians that view them as different places.   The Garden of Edan is also referenced as paradise.  

It makes more sense that they are different places, and that they are separate Beings, and that Christ doesn't have a split personality, and that he actually hadn't ascended to his father yet.  




This thread should be titled "The gospel of Christ according to M-1975".

There are 30,000 other different interpretations of the Bible, and they are just as valid as yours.
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 7:28:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Again, Paul says it is, and he checked for himself in 2 Corinthians 12.

The only way you can really reconcile Christ not going to the Father, yet the Thief still being with Him that day (which ended at sundown in Jewish culture) in Paradise/Third Heaven/throne of God, is to accept that Christ and the Father are the same.


View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


It's not any more special then the third heaven mentioned in the Bible.
You mean Paradise, that the Thief on the Cross went to solely on the basis of faith?  


That's not where he went according to the Bible.  Unless the 3rd heaven is a place where the father doesn't dwell.
Again, Paul says it is, and he checked for himself in 2 Corinthians 12.

The only way you can really reconcile Christ not going to the Father, yet the Thief still being with Him that day (which ended at sundown in Jewish culture) in Paradise/Third Heaven/throne of God, is to accept that Christ and the Father are the same.




Ummm..... no.

You reconcile it by reading what Christ said.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise"


Christ gave the thief his judgment that day, that he would be resurrected and be with Christ. The thief didn't have to wait until the resurrection at the last trumpet to know his judgment.
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 7:43:10 PM EDT
[#13]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Ummm..... no.



You reconcile it by reading what Christ said.




Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise"
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:



Again, Paul says it is, and he checked for himself in 2 Corinthians 12.



The only way you can really reconcile Christ not going to the Father, yet the Thief still being with Him that day (which ended at sundown in Jewish culture) in Paradise/Third Heaven/throne of God, is to accept that Christ and the Father are the same.









Ummm..... no.



You reconcile it by reading what Christ said.




Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise"




Christ gave the thief his judgment that day, that he would be resurrected and be with Christ. The thief didn't have to wait until the resurrection at the last trumpet to know his judgment.
Except Christ said "today you will be with me in Paradise" not "in 2000+ years you'll be with me in Paradise"
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 7:52:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Christ gave the thief his judgment that day, that he would be resurrected and be with Christ. The thief didn't have to wait until the resurrection at the last trumpet to know his judgment.
Except Christ said "today you will be with me in Paradise" not "in 2000+ years you'll be with me in Paradise"
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Again, Paul says it is, and he checked for himself in 2 Corinthians 12.

The only way you can really reconcile Christ not going to the Father, yet the Thief still being with Him that day (which ended at sundown in Jewish culture) in Paradise/Third Heaven/throne of God, is to accept that Christ and the Father are the same.




Ummm..... no.

You reconcile it by reading what Christ said.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise"


Christ gave the thief his judgment that day, that he would be resurrected and be with Christ. The thief didn't have to wait until the resurrection at the last trumpet to know his judgment.
Except Christ said "today you will be with me in Paradise" not "in 2000+ years you'll be with me in Paradise"



Different places.

http://biblehub.com/greek/3857.htm

3857. paradeisos


Thief on cross:

3. that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43



Third heaven where father dwells:

4. an upper region in the heavens: 2 Corinthians 12:4



Looks like they are separate beings and Christ actually hadn't ascended to his father, and the thief may not have actually obtained salvation at that point.
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 8:08:40 PM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 8:11:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Except Christ said "today you will be with me in Paradise" not "in 2000+ years you'll be with me in Paradise"
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Again, Paul says it is, and he checked for himself in 2 Corinthians 12.

The only way you can really reconcile Christ not going to the Father, yet the Thief still being with Him that day (which ended at sundown in Jewish culture) in Paradise/Third Heaven/throne of God, is to accept that Christ and the Father are the same.




Ummm..... no.

You reconcile it by reading what Christ said.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise"

Christ gave the thief his judgment that day, that he would be resurrected and be with Christ. The thief didn't have to wait until the resurrection at the last trumpet to know his judgment.

Except Christ said "today you will be with me in Paradise" not "in 2000+ years you'll be with me in Paradise"


Wow. That's some pretty brazen text chopping you did there. If you don't like some of Christ's words, just chop them right out of a sentence to suit your doctrine.
Link Posted: 5/12/2016 8:56:08 PM EDT
[#17]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Different places.



http://biblehub.com/greek/3857.htm



3857. paradeisos





Thief on cross:



3. that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43
Third heaven where father dwells:



4. an upper region in the heavens: 2 Corinthians 12:4
Looks like they are separate beings and Christ actually hadn't ascended to his father, and the thief may not have actually obtained salvation at that point.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:



Again, Paul says it is, and he checked for himself in 2 Corinthians 12.



The only way you can really reconcile Christ not going to the Father, yet the Thief still being with Him that day (which ended at sundown in Jewish culture) in Paradise/Third Heaven/throne of God, is to accept that Christ and the Father are the same.









Ummm..... no.



You reconcile it by reading what Christ said.



Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise"




Christ gave the thief his judgment that day, that he would be resurrected and be with Christ. The thief didn't have to wait until the resurrection at the last trumpet to know his judgment.

Except Christ said "today you will be with me in Paradise" not "in 2000+ years you'll be with me in Paradise"






Different places.



http://biblehub.com/greek/3857.htm



3857. paradeisos





Thief on cross:



3. that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43
Third heaven where father dwells:



4. an upper region in the heavens: 2 Corinthians 12:4
Looks like they are separate beings and Christ actually hadn't ascended to his father, and the thief may not have actually obtained salvation at that point.


Except Paul equates the two in 2 Corinthians, if you read the context:

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 





Link Posted: 5/12/2016 9:21:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Except Paul equates the two in 2 Corinthians, if you read the context:
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.  



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Again, Paul says it is, and he checked for himself in 2 Corinthians 12.

The only way you can really reconcile Christ not going to the Father, yet the Thief still being with Him that day (which ended at sundown in Jewish culture) in Paradise/Third Heaven/throne of God, is to accept that Christ and the Father are the same.




Ummm..... no.

You reconcile it by reading what Christ said.

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise"


Christ gave the thief his judgment that day, that he would be resurrected and be with Christ. The thief didn't have to wait until the resurrection at the last trumpet to know his judgment.
Except Christ said "today you will be with me in Paradise" not "in 2000+ years you'll be with me in Paradise"



Different places.

http://biblehub.com/greek/3857.htm

3857. paradeisos


Thief on cross:

3. that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43



Third heaven where father dwells:

4. an upper region in the heavens: 2 Corinthians 12:4



Looks like they are separate beings and Christ actually hadn't ascended to his father, and the thief may not have actually obtained salvation at that point.

Except Paul equates the two in 2 Corinthians, if you read the context:
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.  







He didn't equate the two. He simply was talking about the second  definition of paradise, as the dictionary page shows.

Paradise as used with the thief on the cross, applies to the first definition.


Different places. Just like today and English, words can have multiple meanings.

Sorry if it doesn't fit your preconceived notion.

I trust those that know the language and put the dictionary together, over someone doing scriptural  gymnastics to try to make versus fit his preconceived idea of doctrine.

Try to humble yourself and look at it from the possibility that they may be two different places and that your interpretation may be wrong.
Link Posted: 5/13/2016 6:38:20 AM EDT
[#19]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:






He didn't equate the two. He simply was talking about the second  definition of paradise, as the dictionary page shows.



Paradise as used with the thief on the cross, applies to the first definition.





Different places. Just like today and English, words can have multiple meanings.



Sorry if it doesn't fit your preconceived notion.



I trust those that know the language and put the dictionary together, over someone doing scriptural  gymnastics to try to make versus fit his preconceived idea of doctrine.



Try to humble yourself and look at it from the possibility that they may be two different places and that your interpretation may be wrong.
View Quote
As soon as you humble yourself and look at the possibility that your wrong too, on this, the eternal nature of Christ, and salvation by faith alone in Christ alone.



 
Link Posted: 5/13/2016 7:19:51 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
As soon as you humble yourself and look at the possibility that your wrong too, on this, the eternal nature of Christ, and salvation by faith alone in Christ alone.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


He didn't equate the two. He simply was talking about the second  definition of paradise, as the dictionary page shows.

Paradise as used with the thief on the cross, applies to the first definition.


Different places. Just like today and English, words can have multiple meanings.

Sorry if it doesn't fit your preconceived notion.

I trust those that know the language and put the dictionary together, over someone doing scriptural  gymnastics to try to make versus fit his preconceived idea of doctrine.

Try to humble yourself and look at it from the possibility that they may be two different places and that your interpretation may be wrong.
As soon as you humble yourself and look at the possibility that your wrong too, on this, the eternal nature of Christ, and salvation by faith alone in Christ alone.
 



I have looked at that possibility several times throughout my life, and that is why I believe as I do.  Sure it is much "easier" and pleasing to the natural man, that one can live however they want, and get a "get out of jail free card" when they die, but  reading Christ's words in the Bible, tells me that there is more to life than that, and he expects more from us in the way we live our lives.

I have heard throughout my life the example of the thief on the cross as proof you can be saved by faith alone, and that it doesn't matter how you live your life.  With that very questionable example as the proof of concept,   I wasn't left with much confidence in that doctrine.  Seeing other disagreements in basic doctrines between different churches, also made me question those doctrines.  Doctrines such as if your child died before being baptized,  they were damned. Seeing how you don't believe baptism is even necessary,  is another example of the differences.  It is essentially two different interpretations of the same Book.  If baptism is necessary,  and you are wrong,  then many Christians are going to be in trouble. Seeing the chaos of different beliefs, left me realizing that something was  wrong.

So I have looked at both sides, and know what I have chosen, has the answers I have seeked for.
Link Posted: 5/13/2016 7:15:46 PM EDT
[#21]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have looked at that possibility several times throughout my life, and that is why I believe as I do.  Sure it is much "easier" and pleasing to the natural man, that one can live however they want, and get a "get out of jail free card" when they die, but  reading Christ's words in the Bible, tells me that there is more to life than that, and he expects more from us in the way we live our lives.



I have heard throughout my life the example of the thief on the cross as proof you can be saved by faith alone, and that it doesn't matter how you live your life.  With that very questionable example as the proof of concept,   I wasn't left with much confidence in that doctrine.  Seeing other disagreements in basic doctrines between different churches, also made me question those doctrines.  Doctrines such as if your child died before being baptized,  they were damned. Seeing how you don't believe baptism is even necessary,  is another example of the differences.  It is essentially two different interpretations of the same Book.  If baptism is necessary,  and you are wrong,  then many Christians are going to be in trouble. Seeing the chaos of different beliefs, left me realizing that something was  wrong.



So I have looked at both sides, and know what I have chosen, has the answers I have seeked for.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:





He didn't equate the two. He simply was talking about the second  definition of paradise, as the dictionary page shows.



Paradise as used with the thief on the cross, applies to the first definition.





Different places. Just like today and English, words can have multiple meanings.



Sorry if it doesn't fit your preconceived notion.



I trust those that know the language and put the dictionary together, over someone doing scriptural  gymnastics to try to make versus fit his preconceived idea of doctrine.



Try to humble yourself and look at it from the possibility that they may be two different places and that your interpretation may be wrong.
As soon as you humble yourself and look at the possibility that your wrong too, on this, the eternal nature of Christ, and salvation by faith alone in Christ alone.

 






I have looked at that possibility several times throughout my life, and that is why I believe as I do.  Sure it is much "easier" and pleasing to the natural man, that one can live however they want, and get a "get out of jail free card" when they die, but  reading Christ's words in the Bible, tells me that there is more to life than that, and he expects more from us in the way we live our lives.



I have heard throughout my life the example of the thief on the cross as proof you can be saved by faith alone, and that it doesn't matter how you live your life.  With that very questionable example as the proof of concept,   I wasn't left with much confidence in that doctrine.  Seeing other disagreements in basic doctrines between different churches, also made me question those doctrines.  Doctrines such as if your child died before being baptized,  they were damned. Seeing how you don't believe baptism is even necessary,  is another example of the differences.  It is essentially two different interpretations of the same Book.  If baptism is necessary,  and you are wrong,  then many Christians are going to be in trouble. Seeing the chaos of different beliefs, left me realizing that something was  wrong.



So I have looked at both sides, and know what I have chosen, has the answers I have seeked for.

Well Christ says that those who don't trust in Him are condemned already: "He who BELIEVES in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)



If you trust that a so-called clean life gets you to heaven, then you're not trusting Christ.



That clean life is a lie, everyone sins, and unless your perfect you aren't getting into heaven. Christ is the ultimate "get out of jail free card", and that's why the only hope we have is to put all of our trust in Him.





Link Posted: 5/13/2016 7:32:52 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Well Christ says that those who don't trust in Him are condemned already: "He who BELIEVES in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

If you trust that a so-called clean life gets you to heaven, then you're not trusting Christ.

That clean life is a lie, everyone sins, and unless your perfect you aren't getting into heaven. Christ is the ultimate "get out of jail free card", and that's why the only hope we have is to put all of our trust in Him.


View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


He didn't equate the two. He simply was talking about the second  definition of paradise, as the dictionary page shows.

Paradise as used with the thief on the cross, applies to the first definition.


Different places. Just like today and English, words can have multiple meanings.

Sorry if it doesn't fit your preconceived notion.

I trust those that know the language and put the dictionary together, over someone doing scriptural  gymnastics to try to make versus fit his preconceived idea of doctrine.

Try to humble yourself and look at it from the possibility that they may be two different places and that your interpretation may be wrong.
As soon as you humble yourself and look at the possibility that your wrong too, on this, the eternal nature of Christ, and salvation by faith alone in Christ alone.
 



I have looked at that possibility several times throughout my life, and that is why I believe as I do.  Sure it is much "easier" and pleasing to the natural man, that one can live however they want, and get a "get out of jail free card" when they die, but  reading Christ's words in the Bible, tells me that there is more to life than that, and he expects more from us in the way we live our lives.

I have heard throughout my life the example of the thief on the cross as proof you can be saved by faith alone, and that it doesn't matter how you live your life.  With that very questionable example as the proof of concept,   I wasn't left with much confidence in that doctrine.  Seeing other disagreements in basic doctrines between different churches, also made me question those doctrines.  Doctrines such as if your child died before being baptized,  they were damned. Seeing how you don't believe baptism is even necessary,  is another example of the differences.  It is essentially two different interpretations of the same Book.  If baptism is necessary,  and you are wrong,  then many Christians are going to be in trouble. Seeing the chaos of different beliefs, left me realizing that something was  wrong.

So I have looked at both sides, and know what I have chosen, has the answers I have seeked for.
Well Christ says that those who don't trust in Him are condemned already: "He who BELIEVES in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

If you trust that a so-called clean life gets you to heaven, then you're not trusting Christ.

That clean life is a lie, everyone sins, and unless your perfect you aren't getting into heaven. Christ is the ultimate "get out of jail free card", and that's why the only hope we have is to put all of our trust in Him.




I never have and never will say a "clean life" gets you to heaven.  It doesn't because no one will live a clean life.  The idea that one can earn their way into heaven, is nothing more than one of your preconceived notions about what Mormons believe, that is simply flat out wrong.

I know I have sins, but I try my best to minimize them, and try to live my life according to the teachings of Christ in the Bible.   I know because of those sins, I am not worthy to return to God's Presence.   That Is why Father sent his only begotten Son, to atone for my mistakes, and your mistakes, and everyone's mistakes.
I know and believe that only through Christ can he overcome our sins for us, to allow us to return to God's presence.  I try not to just believe in Christ, but to know him, by doing what he has asked, and doing all I can to live as he did,  although I fall far short, but because I trust in him, I know he will make up the difference for me.

That is the gospel and Christ I believe in.

Link Posted: 5/14/2016 8:09:23 AM EDT
[#23]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I never have and never will say a "clean life" gets you to heaven.  It doesn't because no one will live a clean life.  The idea that one can earn their way into heaven, is nothing more than one of your preconceived notions about what Mormons believe, that is simply flat out wrong.



I know I have sins, but I try my best to minimize them, and try to live my life according to the teachings of Christ in the Bible.   I know because of those sins, I am not worthy to return to God's Presence.   That Is why Father sent his only begotten Son, to atone for my mistakes, and your mistakes, and everyone's mistakes.

I know and believe that only through Christ can he overcome our sins for us, to allow us to return to God's presence.  I try not to just believe in Christ, but to know him, by doing what he has asked, and doing all I can to live as he did,  although I fall far short, but because I trust in him, I know he will make up the difference for me.



That is the gospel and Christ I believe in.



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:





He didn't equate the two. He simply was talking about the second  definition of paradise, as the dictionary page shows.



Paradise as used with the thief on the cross, applies to the first definition.





Different places. Just like today and English, words can have multiple meanings.



Sorry if it doesn't fit your preconceived notion.



I trust those that know the language and put the dictionary together, over someone doing scriptural  gymnastics to try to make versus fit his preconceived idea of doctrine.



Try to humble yourself and look at it from the possibility that they may be two different places and that your interpretation may be wrong.
As soon as you humble yourself and look at the possibility that your wrong too, on this, the eternal nature of Christ, and salvation by faith alone in Christ alone.

 






I have looked at that possibility several times throughout my life, and that is why I believe as I do.  Sure it is much "easier" and pleasing to the natural man, that one can live however they want, and get a "get out of jail free card" when they die, but  reading Christ's words in the Bible, tells me that there is more to life than that, and he expects more from us in the way we live our lives.



I have heard throughout my life the example of the thief on the cross as proof you can be saved by faith alone, and that it doesn't matter how you live your life.  With that very questionable example as the proof of concept,   I wasn't left with much confidence in that doctrine.  Seeing other disagreements in basic doctrines between different churches, also made me question those doctrines.  Doctrines such as if your child died before being baptized,  they were damned. Seeing how you don't believe baptism is even necessary,  is another example of the differences.  It is essentially two different interpretations of the same Book.  If baptism is necessary,  and you are wrong,  then many Christians are going to be in trouble. Seeing the chaos of different beliefs, left me realizing that something was  wrong.



So I have looked at both sides, and know what I have chosen, has the answers I have seeked for.

Well Christ says that those who don't trust in Him are condemned already: "He who BELIEVES in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)



If you trust that a so-called clean life gets you to heaven, then you're not trusting Christ.



That clean life is a lie, everyone sins, and unless your perfect you aren't getting into heaven. Christ is the ultimate "get out of jail free card", and that's why the only hope we have is to put all of our trust in Him.









I never have and never will say a "clean life" gets you to heaven.  It doesn't because no one will live a clean life.  The idea that one can earn their way into heaven, is nothing more than one of your preconceived notions about what Mormons believe, that is simply flat out wrong.



I know I have sins, but I try my best to minimize them, and try to live my life according to the teachings of Christ in the Bible.   I know because of those sins, I am not worthy to return to God's Presence.   That Is why Father sent his only begotten Son, to atone for my mistakes, and your mistakes, and everyone's mistakes.

I know and believe that only through Christ can he overcome our sins for us, to allow us to return to God's presence.  I try not to just believe in Christ, but to know him, by doing what he has asked, and doing all I can to live as he did,  although I fall far short, but because I trust in him, I know he will make up the difference for me.



That is the gospel and Christ I believe in.



But you say the lack of one means that you won't, you ridicule the idea of a heinously sinful man being forgiven of his sins right before he dies. That's born out of a viewpoint that some personal merit is needed for salvation. Yet no one can say how much.



Christ doesn't "make up the difference", that's mixing grace and works which is logically impossible, which Paul pointed out in Roman 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."
 
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 9:57:25 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
But you say the lack of one means that you won't, you ridicule the idea of a heinously sinful man being forgiven of his sins right before he dies. That's born out of a viewpoint that some personal merit is needed for salvation. Yet no one can say how much.

Christ doesn't "make up the difference", that's mixing grace and works which is logically impossible, which Paul pointed out in Roman 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."



 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


I never have and never will say a "clean life" gets you to heaven.  It doesn't because no one will live a clean life.  The idea that one can earn their way into heaven, is nothing more than one of your preconceived notions about what Mormons believe, that is simply flat out wrong.

I know I have sins, but I try my best to minimize them, and try to live my life according to the teachings of Christ in the Bible.   I know because of those sins, I am not worthy to return to God's Presence.   That Is why Father sent his only begotten Son, to atone for my mistakes, and your mistakes, and everyone's mistakes.
I know and believe that only through Christ can he overcome our sins for us, to allow us to return to God's presence.  I try not to just believe in Christ, but to know him, by doing what he has asked, and doing all I can to live as he did,  although I fall far short, but because I trust in him, I know he will make up the difference for me.

That is the gospel and Christ I believe in.

But you say the lack of one means that you won't, you ridicule the idea of a heinously sinful man being forgiven of his sins right before he dies. That's born out of a viewpoint that some personal merit is needed for salvation. Yet no one can say how much.

Christ doesn't "make up the difference", that's mixing grace and works which is logically impossible, which Paul pointed out in Roman 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."



 



If a person knowingly sinned his whole life,  understanding the commandments, and knowingly disobeying them, with the plan of simply accepting Christ on his deathbed, and getting out of jail free,  then yes I believe they will be damned.      If a person has not known the gospel while living his sinful life,  discovers it,  has a change of heart, repents, and accepts Christ through baptism before he dies, then that is a different story.  I believe the Lord will hold us accountable for the knowledge we have of his plan, and the level to which we knowingly rebel.

Do you believe a change of heart is required?  

Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?
I know many pastors that will call people that do that saved, just because words were said.



There are many books that talk about how obedience or some works are necessary.

In Hebrews 5 we read:

9. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;




Paul mentions several times that sinners won't be saved:



In 1st Cor:  

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


In Galatians we read

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.




He tells the Ephesians, that even after they have become saints,  if they are unclean,covetous, or an idolater,  they will not receive an inheritance.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.



He tells the Phillipians:

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.



In Titus, we read:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;





An LDS scholar wrote an answer in relation to Romans 11:6

John A. Tvedtnes


In several of his epistles, Paul wrote that salvation came by grace, not works. For example, he wrote of Christ “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” He told the Romans that “if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” He asked his readers, “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

Was Paul teaching that good works were not the basis of salvation? If so, how are we to understand passages like Revelation 20:12-13, which say that God will judge men “according to their works”? The answer lies within Paul’s epistles to the Romans and the Galatians, in which he clearly explained what he means by “works.” He declared that “Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.” He also wrote,

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

From these passages, it clear that Paul was saying that salvation did not come by the “works of the law,” meaning the law of Moses, but by the higher law brought by Christ. He did not teach that good works in general were not necessary for salvation, only that the law of Moses “was added because of transgressions…Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.






It's also odd that if grace is all that is needed,  why did Christ never once mention that?   His whole life,  he never once mentioned that works were not important.

Christ's teachings:

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."




He upbraids many cities for their sins:

20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.




Other verses where Christ himself tells how living a good life is needed for salvation:


20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.



16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.



24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.



For Christ,  the DO was very important.    If only grace was needed,  I'm sure the master would have mentioned it.
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 10:59:13 AM EDT
[#25]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Read what I said again.  
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

Enjoying the last few pages.
Exractr thinks Catholics are heretics also, being Mormon.    



He's just trying to discredit me because I've shown where the LDS is in error in past threads.

So you want to start that all over again? Glad to know you are in the 'Catholics are heretics camp.'



Hubris. You have it.

 
Read what I said again.  
I did. Your first sentence could be taken one of two ways. Either you and I are heretics. Or you and he think I'm a heretic. Given past posts which condemned me to eternal damnation for being Catholic, I assumed you meant the latter.



 
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 12:36:59 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I did. Your first sentence could be taken one of two ways. Either you and I are heretics. Or you and he think I'm a heretic. Given past posts which condemned me to eternal damnation for being Catholic, I assumed you meant the latter.
 
View Quote


I don't think your a heratic.

I am simply pointing out the inconsistency of M-1975s argument.

He claims the early Catholic church was so inspired and divinely led to bring forth the Bible in purity, yet not inspired and divenly led enough to continue on. He disagrees with the Catholic interpretation, because he feels his is better or more correct.  Without the Catholic Church,  he wouldn't even have his Bible.

If one actually looks at it with reason and logic,   the only churches that have any legitimate claim to be the true Christian church are Catholics or Mormons.

Either the truth and authority given by the laying on of hands by Christ, continues on to this day through the Catholic church, or there was an apostasy after the apostles were killed off, and a restoration of the authority was needed  as I believe happened.

You can't take a live branch from a dead tree.  IF the Catholic Church lost its way as so many protestants  claim, then how is a man supposed to restore that authority which comes from God. One cannot take that honor upon themselves, but must be called of God.

I personally believe all churches have truth in them, but personally believe  many plain and simple truths were lost between the time Christ and the apostles spoke their words, and they were recorded.  That is why there are now over 30,000 different Christian sects and over 100 Bible translations.  Because of the simple truths that were lost, many stumble, trying to understand the doctrine,  all claiming their interpretation is the correct one.

It doesn't make anyone a heratic if they are living according to the truths they have.  I believe every person who ever lived on the earth will have a chance to hear the fullness of the truth of Christ's gospel, and accept him as Lord, whether it be in this life or the next.  
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 4:41:13 PM EDT
[#27]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If a person knowingly sinned his whole life,  understanding the commandments, and knowingly disobeying them, with the plan of simply accepting Christ on his deathbed, and getting out of jail free,  then yes I believe they will be damned.      If a person has not known the gospel while living his sinful life,  discovers it,  has a change of heart, repents, and accepts Christ through baptism before he dies, then that is a different story.  I believe the Lord will hold us accountable for the knowledge we have of his plan, and the level to which we knowingly rebel.



Do you believe a change of heart is required?



Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?

I know many pastors that will call people that do that saved, just because words were said.



All sin is rebellion, and you already admitted you sin. So how much sin is permissible? And are you familiar with the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard? We all get paid the same whether we come in the morning or the evening.



And now you are again betraying what you said earlier about faith...and taking Christ at His word that WHOSOVER believes shall not perish bit have everlasting life.



There are many books that talk about how obedience or some works are necessary.



In Hebrews 5 we read:



9. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



And we obey by believing, see John 3:36, 5:40 and John 6:49.



Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." and  "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." By relying on what you do for your eternal status you in fact do not rely on Him; you are essentially saying "don't worry God, even though You say You died on the cross and gave me eternal life as a free gift, I don't believe you, so I'll just try to do it myself, because I'm better than those other sinners who believe what You said.





Paul mentions several times that sinners won't be saved:
In 1st Cor:  



9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Read the context starting at verse 1, this is about Christians taking each other to court to have their disputes resolved by people who are spiritually dead, just like they were (see verse 10). This has nothing to do with salvation.





In Galatians we read



19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,



20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,



21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



This passage is about those who are not saved walking in the flesh, because they have not been born again of the spirit. BTW the word for "do" in v.21 is actually the Greek word for practice (prasso, Strong's #4238), which is the same word in Romans 7:19.

Interesting how you ignored the verse before this, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law." i.e., born agaian.




He tells the Ephesians, that even after they have become saints,  if they are unclean,covetous, or an idolater,  they will not receive an inheritance.



3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;



4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.



5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

This is similar to the last two verse you quoted out-of-context. It means that people who are not in Christ (who have not received eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone) will not get into heaven.

Paul does exhort people to walk in the spirit, and avoid sin, but never in the context of salvation/justification, because those who he's writing to are already saved. It's in the context of discipleship/sanctification.


He tells the Phillipians:



12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.



This is in context of the persecution the Philippians were suffering, and "salvation here" is in reference to being delivered from that persecution, not salvation from God's judgement. If that were the case then Paul contradicts his own words in Romans 4:2-6, Ephesians 2:8-9 and elsewhere.



In Titus, we read:



11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,



12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;





Read Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, THROUGH the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Paul cannot be contradicting himself in the same letter! Yes we should live that way, but it isn't a matter of salvation, faith towards God, or a prerequisite towards faith.




An LDS scholar wrote an answer in relation to Romans 11:6



John A. Tvedtnes





In several of his epistles, Paul wrote that salvation came by grace, not works. For example, he wrote of Christ "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” He told the Romans that "if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” He asked his readers, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”



Was Paul teaching that good works were not the basis of salvation? If so, how are we to understand passages like Revelation 20:12-13, which say that God will judge men "according to their works”? The answer lies within Paul’s epistles to the Romans and the Galatians, in which he clearly explained what he means by "works.” He declared that "Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.” He also wrote,



We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.



From these passages, it clear that Paul was saying that salvation did not come by the "works of the law,” meaning the law of Moses, but by the higher law brought by Christ. He did not teach that good works in general were not necessary for salvation, only that the law of Moses "was added because of transgressions…Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.



You understand Revelation 20:12-13 as not a judgement of "heaven or no heaven" for believers, but a matter of those rewards for discipleship I was telling you about. And Paul's reasoning in Romans 11:6 is that works and grace are mutually exclusive. Your Mormon "scholar" then tries to use Romans 3 to attack the context of Romans 11! Yet he ignores how Paul transitioned from no justification by the law, to using Abraham as an example of one who was justified by faith before there was the law of Moses! Does this guy even read the context or is he just cherry-picking verses so people will keep tithing and the church can pay him?!
It's also odd that if grace is all that is needed,  why did Christ never once mention that?   His whole life,  he never once mentioned that works were not important.



Christ's teachings:



"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."



At that time in His ministry, He was announcing the time had come, they were to change their minds (repent) and welcome the Messiah, but they did not. It's not a salvation verse.





He upbraids many cities for their sins:



20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.





See last comment.



Other verses where Christ himself tells how living a good life is needed for salvation:





20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.



Which is ironic, because you're trying to teach the same thing the Pharisees did: that your outward righteousness reflects your inward reality, when in fact it does not. The only human that is righteous is Christ, and God gives us that righteousness by faith.



16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.



Yeah the Rich Young Ruler, who if you read the whole thing, was convinced of his own righteousness (he claimed to do all of the law, which was a lie). BTW Jesus told him to sell what he had and give to the poor; have you done this?  



24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Discipleship verse.



47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Discipleship. Yes we should listen to the wisdom of God, because as the Creator of the universe He has told us what will benefit us spiritually, but again, this isn't about justification before God, this is about wisdom.



21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.



Read the context. Starting in verse 15 he talks about false teachers and knowing them by their fruits (words), then in verse 21 He describes how those false teachers will come before Him and proclaim all their amazing works, which Christ will not deny, but instead will deny them on the basis of "I never KNEW YOU". BTW what's the will of the Father? ""And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40)



For Christ,  the DO was very important.    If only grace was needed,  I'm sure the master would have mentioned it. "For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)
View Quote
So much for saying we are saved by faith, now you're making the case for works.



Grace isn't some mystical "force" that lets us work for salvation. It simply means that God gives the free gift of salvation for all who believe out of His own desire to do so. You can't give someone a gift then demand payment later - then it is not a gift.

 
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 4:42:28 PM EDT
[#28]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





I did. Your first sentence could be taken one of two ways. Either you and I are heretics. Or you and he think I'm a heretic. Given past posts which condemned me to eternal damnation for being Catholic, I assumed you meant the latter.


 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





Quoted:




Quoted:




Quoted:





Exractr thinks Catholics are heretics also, being Mormon.    





He's just trying to discredit me because I've shown where the LDS is in error in past threads.


So you want to start that all over again? Glad to know you are in the 'Catholics are heretics camp.'





Hubris. You have it.


 
Read what I said again.  
I did. Your first sentence could be taken one of two ways. Either you and I are heretics. Or you and he think I'm a heretic. Given past posts which condemned me to eternal damnation for being Catholic, I assumed you meant the latter.


 
I wasn't suggesting the latter in that statement, just pointing out the fact that your dealing with someone who thinks you're just as wrong as I am.


 



Link Posted: 5/14/2016 4:46:32 PM EDT
[#29]



Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don't think your a heratic.
I am simply pointing out the inconsistency of M-1975s argument.
He claims the early Catholic church was so inspired and divinely led to bring forth the Bible in purity, yet not inspired and divenly led enough to continue on. He disagrees with the Catholic interpretation, because he feels his is better or more correct.  Without the Catholic Church,  he wouldn't even have his Bible.
If one actually looks at it with reason and logic,   the only churches that have any legitimate claim to be the true Christian church are Catholics or Mormons.
Either the truth and authority given by the laying on of hands by Christ, continues on to this day through the Catholic church, or there was an apostasy after the apostles were killed off, and a restoration of the authority was needed  as I believe happened.
You can't take a live branch from a dead tree.  IF the Catholic Church lost its way as so many protestants  claim, then how is a man supposed to restore that authority which comes from God. One cannot take that honor upon themselves, but must be called of God.
I personally believe all churches have truth in them, but personally believe  many plain and simple truths were lost between the time Christ and the apostles spoke their words, and they were recorded.  That is why there are now over 30,000 different Christian sects and over 100 Bible translations.  Because of the simple truths that were lost, many stumble, trying to understand the doctrine,  all claiming their interpretation is the correct one.
It doesn't make anyone a heratic if they are living according to the truths they have.  I believe every person who ever lived on the earth will have a chance to hear the fullness of the truth of Christ's gospel, and accept him as Lord, whether it be in this life or the next.  



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:



I did. Your first sentence could be taken one of two ways. Either you and I are heretics. Or you and he think I'm a heretic. Given past posts which condemned me to eternal damnation for being Catholic, I assumed you meant the latter.



 

I don't think your a heratic.
I am simply pointing out the inconsistency of M-1975s argument.
He claims the early Catholic church was so inspired and divinely led to bring forth the Bible in purity, yet not inspired and divenly led enough to continue on. He disagrees with the Catholic interpretation, because he feels his is better or more correct.  Without the Catholic Church,  he wouldn't even have his Bible.
If one actually looks at it with reason and logic,   the only churches that have any legitimate claim to be the true Christian church are Catholics or Mormons.
Either the truth and authority given by the laying on of hands by Christ, continues on to this day through the Catholic church, or there was an apostasy after the apostles were killed off, and a restoration of the authority was needed  as I believe happened.
You can't take a live branch from a dead tree.  IF the Catholic Church lost its way as so many protestants  claim, then how is a man supposed to restore that authority which comes from God. One cannot take that honor upon themselves, but must be called of God.
I personally believe all churches have truth in them, but personally believe  many plain and simple truths were lost between the time Christ and the apostles spoke their words, and they were recorded.  That is why there are now over 30,000 different Christian sects and over 100 Bible translations.  Because of the simple truths that were lost, many stumble, trying to understand the doctrine,  all claiming their interpretation is the correct one.
It doesn't make anyone a heratic if they are living according to the truths they have.  I believe every person who ever lived on the earth will have a chance to hear the fullness of the truth of Christ's gospel, and accept him as Lord, whether it be in this life or the next.  




"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'



- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811










"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God."



- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939










"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces..
. as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!



- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255










"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."










"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."










"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left."



- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41










"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."










"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain."



- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346










"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great" "The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned the great the mighty the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms."



- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109










"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power
, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven."





- Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85
But this is a different argument for a different thread. Just pointing out that Extractr either is speaking out of ignorance or deception.


 

 
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 6:12:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'
- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811


"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God."
- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939


"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!
- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255


"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."


"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."


"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left."
- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41


"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."


"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346


"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great" "The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned the great the mighty the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109


"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85


But this is a different argument for a different thread. Just pointing out that Extractr either is speaking out of ignorance or deception.
   
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I did. Your first sentence could be taken one of two ways. Either you and I are heretics. Or you and he think I'm a heretic. Given past posts which condemned me to eternal damnation for being Catholic, I assumed you meant the latter.
 


I don't think your a heratic.

I am simply pointing out the inconsistency of M-1975s argument.

He claims the early Catholic church was so inspired and divinely led to bring forth the Bible in purity, yet not inspired and divenly led enough to continue on. He disagrees with the Catholic interpretation, because he feels his is better or more correct.  Without the Catholic Church,  he wouldn't even have his Bible.

If one actually looks at it with reason and logic,   the only churches that have any legitimate claim to be the true Christian church are Catholics or Mormons.

Either the truth and authority given by the laying on of hands by Christ, continues on to this day through the Catholic church, or there was an apostasy after the apostles were killed off, and a restoration of the authority was needed  as I believe happened.

You can't take a live branch from a dead tree.  IF the Catholic Church lost its way as so many protestants  claim, then how is a man supposed to restore that authority which comes from God. One cannot take that honor upon themselves, but must be called of God.

I personally believe all churches have truth in them, but personally believe  many plain and simple truths were lost between the time Christ and the apostles spoke their words, and they were recorded.  That is why there are now over 30,000 different Christian sects and over 100 Bible translations.  Because of the simple truths that were lost, many stumble, trying to understand the doctrine,  all claiming their interpretation is the correct one.

It doesn't make anyone a heratic if they are living according to the truths they have.  I believe every person who ever lived on the earth will have a chance to hear the fullness of the truth of Christ's gospel, and accept him as Lord, whether it be in this life or the next.  
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'
- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811


"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God."
- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939


"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!
- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255


"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."


"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."


"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left."
- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41


"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."


"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346


"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great" "The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned the great the mighty the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109


"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85


But this is a different argument for a different thread. Just pointing out that Extractr either is speaking out of ignorance or deception.
   


So, let me get this straight. Joseph Smith appoints a Quorum of 12 and starts a new church because Catholics and Protestant's are heretics? Does this mean he appointed himself Jesus Christ and dismissed the original 12 Apostles and named for himself 12 new ones. By Websters definition of heretics he's the one that fits the bill.
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 8:57:27 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'
- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811


"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God."
- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939


"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!
- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255


"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."


"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."


"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left."
- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41


"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."


"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346


"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great" "The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned the great the mighty the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109


"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85


But this is a different argument for a different thread. Just pointing out that Extractr either is speaking out of ignorance or deception.
   
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I did. Your first sentence could be taken one of two ways. Either you and I are heretics. Or you and he think I'm a heretic. Given past posts which condemned me to eternal damnation for being Catholic, I assumed you meant the latter.
 


I don't think your a heratic.

I am simply pointing out the inconsistency of M-1975s argument.

He claims the early Catholic church was so inspired and divinely led to bring forth the Bible in purity, yet not inspired and divenly led enough to continue on. He disagrees with the Catholic interpretation, because he feels his is better or more correct.  Without the Catholic Church,  he wouldn't even have his Bible.

If one actually looks at it with reason and logic,   the only churches that have any legitimate claim to be the true Christian church are Catholics or Mormons.

Either the truth and authority given by the laying on of hands by Christ, continues on to this day through the Catholic church, or there was an apostasy after the apostles were killed off, and a restoration of the authority was needed  as I believe happened.

You can't take a live branch from a dead tree.  IF the Catholic Church lost its way as so many protestants  claim, then how is a man supposed to restore that authority which comes from God. One cannot take that honor upon themselves, but must be called of God.

I personally believe all churches have truth in them, but personally believe  many plain and simple truths were lost between the time Christ and the apostles spoke their words, and they were recorded.  That is why there are now over 30,000 different Christian sects and over 100 Bible translations.  Because of the simple truths that were lost, many stumble, trying to understand the doctrine,  all claiming their interpretation is the correct one.

It doesn't make anyone a heratic if they are living according to the truths they have.  I believe every person who ever lived on the earth will have a chance to hear the fullness of the truth of Christ's gospel, and accept him as Lord, whether it be in this life or the next.  
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'
- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811


"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God."
- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939


"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!
- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255


"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."


"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."


"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left."
- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41


"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."


"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346


"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great" "The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned the great the mighty the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109


"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85


But this is a different argument for a different thread. Just pointing out that Extractr either is speaking out of ignorance or deception.
   


Nice deflection there when the hypocrisy of your own view of Catholics is pointed out.


I see you are still just as dishonest as ever.   Knowingly still citing works that have been claimed as false doctrine by the church and disowned by the author.   Or citing third hand accounts of peoples personal opinions.   I see you also cherry picked views that seem to fit your hatred of the Mormon church.   I still wonder why you get so upset about people trying to live as Christ taught.  Maybe your parents didn't hug you enough.



Maybe you should have not let your bias be so evident and posted some statements showing the churches official position on other religions.


If you feel so strongly about the sources you used,  maybe you should have posted these comments as well.  Many of these also are direct firsthand sources. If you want the references for any specific quotes, let me know, and i will provide them.  I left them off otherwise the post would have been twice as long

Statements from Joseph Smith:


   "The Saints can testify whether I am willing to lay down my life for my brethren. If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a ‘Mormon.’ I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination; for the same principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter-day Saints would trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholics, or of any other denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves.”



“I have the most liberal sentiments, and feelings of charity towards all sects, parties, and denominations; and the rights and liberties of conscience, I hold most sacred and dear, and despise no man for differing with me in matters of opinion.”




“If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way.”





“All persons are entitled to their agency, for God has so ordained it. He has constituted mankind moral agents, and given them power to choose good or evil; to seek after that which is good, by pursuing the pathway of holiness in this life, which brings peace of mind, and joy in the Holy Ghost here, and a fulness of joy and happiness at His right hand hereafter; or to pursue an evil course, going on in sin and rebellion against God, thereby bringing condemnation to their souls in this world, and an eternal loss in the world to come. Since the God of heaven has left these things optional with every individual, we do not wish to deprive them of it. We only wish to act the part of a faithful watchman, agreeable to the word of the Lord to Ezekiel the prophet (Ezekiel chap. 33, verses 2, 3, 4, 5), and leave it for others to do as seemeth them good.”



“It is one of the first principles of my life, and one that I have cultivated from my childhood, having been taught it by my father, to allow every one the liberty of conscience. … In my feelings I am always ready to die for the protection of the weak and oppressed in their just rights.”



Meddle not with any man for his religion: all governments ought to permit every man to enjoy his religion unmolested. No man is authorized to take away life in consequence of difference of religion, which all laws and governments ought to tolerate and protect, right or wrong.”


“We will … cultivate peace and friendship with all, mind our own business, and come off with flying colors, respected, because, in respecting others, we respect ourselves.”


“Although I never feel to force my doctrine upon any person, I rejoice to see prejudice give way to truth, and the traditions of men dispersed by the pure principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”


“We ought always to be aware of those prejudices which sometimes so strangely present themselves, and are so congenial to human nature, against our friends, neighbors, and brethren of the world, who choose to differ from us in opinion and in matters of faith. Our religion is between us and our God. Their religion is between them and their God.”



“When we see virtuous qualities in men, we should always acknowledge them, let their understanding be what it may in relation to creeds and doctrine; for all men are, or ought to be free, possessing unalienable rights, and the high and noble qualifications of the laws of nature and of self-preservation, to think and act and say as they please, while they maintain a due respect to the rights and privileges of all other creatures, infringing upon none. This doctrine I do most heartily subscribe to and practice.”



“[A member of the Church] is to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all, wherever he finds them.”



“We deem it a just principle, and it is one the force of which we believe ought to be duly considered by every individual, that all men are created equal, and that all have the privilege of thinking for themselves upon all matters relative to conscience. Consequently, then, we are not disposed, had we the power, to deprive any one of exercising that free independence of mind which heaven has so graciously bestowed upon the human family as one of its choicest gifts.”


“The inquiry is frequently made of me, ‘Wherein do you differ from others in your religious views?’ In reality and essence, we do not differ so far in our religious views, but that we could all drink into one principle of love. One of the grand fundamental principles of ‘Mormonism’ is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.” “Have the Presbyterians any truth?” he asked on another occasion. “Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. . . . We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true ‘Mormons.’”  


In April 1843, Pelatiah Brown sought to silence certain critics of the LDS Church by stretching and twisting the meaning of passages from the book of Revelation to make his point. After Brother Brown had been disciplined for doing so, Joseph Smith said: “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latterday Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.”




“We wish it… to be distinctly understood,” he remarked,

that we claim no privilege but what we feel cheerfully disposed to share with our fellow citizens of every denomination, and every sentiment of religion; and therefore say, that so far from being restricted to our own faith, let all those who desire to locate themselves in this place, or the vicinity, come, and we will hail them as citizens and friends, and shall feel it not only a duty, but a privilege, to reciprocate the kindness we have received from the benevolent and kind-hearted citizens of the state of Illinois.





Joseph Smith speaking in direct relation to the burning of some Catholic churches in Boston:

The early settlers of Boston… who had fled from their mother country to avoid persecution and death, soon became so lost to principles of justice and religious liberty as to whip and hang the Baptist and the Quaker, who like themselves, had fled from tyranny to a land of freedom; and the fathers of Salem from 1692 to 1693, whipped, imprisoned, tortured, and hung many of their citizens for supposed witchcraft; and quite recently, — while boasting of her light and knowledge, of her laws and religion, as surpassed by none on earth, — has New England been guilty of burning a Catholic convent in the vicinity of Charleston, and of scattering the inmates to the four winds; yes, in sight of the very spot where the fire of American Independence was first kindled, where a monument is now erecting in memory of the battle of Bunker Hill, and the fate of immortal Warren, who bled, who died, on those sacred heights, to purchase religious liberty for his country — in sight of this very spot, have the religionists of the nineteenth century, demolished a noble brick edifice, hurling its inhabitants forth upon a cold, unfeeling world for protection and subsistence.

Well did the Savior say concerning such, “by their fruits you shall know them.” And if the wicked mob who destroyed the Charleston convent, and the cool, calculating religious

lookers on, who inspired their hearts with deeds of infamy, do not arise, and redress the wrong, and restore the injured four-fold, they in turn, will receive of the measure they have meted out till the just indignation of a righteous God is satisfied. When will man cease to war with man, and wrest from him his sacred rights of worshiping his God according as his conscience dictates? Holy Father, hasten the day.






Articles of Faith 1:11: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”



Joseph Fielding Smith on the Millennium:

   Some members of the Church have an erroneous idea that when the millennium comes all of the people are going to be swept off the earth except righteous members of the Church. That is not so. There will be millions of people, Catholics, Protestants, agnostics, Mohammedans, people of all classes, and of all beliefs, still permitted to remain upon the face of the earth, but they will be those who have lived clean lives, those who have been free from wickedness and corruption. All who belong, by virtue of their good lives, to the terrestrial order, as well as those who have kept the celestial law, will remain upon the face of the earth during the millennium. Eventually, however, the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters do the sea.




President George Albert Smith
“We have come not to take away from you the truth and virtue you possess. We have come not to find fault with you nor criticize you. We have not come here to berate you. . . . We . . . say to you: ‘Keep all the good that you have, and let us bring to you more good.’”





“God, the Father of us all,” Elder Ezra Taft Benson said, “uses the men of the earth, especially good men, to accomplish his purposes. It has been true in the past, it is true today, it will be true in the future.” Elder Benson then quoted the following from a conference address delivered by Elder Orson F. Whitney in 1928: “Perhaps the Lord needs such men on the outside of His Church to help it along. They are among its auxiliaries, and can do more good for the cause where the Lord has placed them, than anywhere else.” Now note this particularly poignant message: “God is using more than one people for the accomplishment of His great and marvelous work. The Latter-day Saints cannot do it all. It is too vast, too arduous for any one people.” Elder Whitney then pointed out that we have no warfare with other churches. “They are our partners in a certain sense.



Elder B. H. Roberts
All that makes for untruth, for unrighteousness constitutes the kingdom of evil—the church of the devil. All that makes for truth, for righteousness, is of God; it constitutes the kingdom of righteousness—the empire of Jehovah; and, in a certain sense at least, constitutes the Church of Christ. With the latter—the kingdom of righteousness—we have no warfare. On the contrary both the spirit of the Lord’s commandments to his servants and the dictates of right reason would suggest that we seek to enlarge this kingdom of righteousness both by recognizing such truths as it possesses and seeking the friendship and cooperation of the righteous men and women who constitute its membership.






Those are just a few.


it's also interesting to note, that if Mormons were so against other faiths,  why would they invite other ministers to speak in their churches?

Joseph  invited non-Mormon ministers to speak from Mormon pulpits in the city, a practice that continued under Brigham Young in the Latter-day Saint settlement of Salt Lake City. “President Young,” reported George Q. Cannon,

said he wanted the people to hear these men and their views. For years this was done. Prominent ministers were invited to speak to us. I remember Methodist bishops and others preaching to us… Why? Because we were willing to extend liberty to everybody.





And Moses Thatcher, a member of the Twelve in the period following Brigham Young, commented in 1882 that

The inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit have prompted the Presidency and Apostles of this Church to open meeting-houses and Tabernacles for ministers of various religious denominations to preach in; while our Elders were being persecuted, hunted and sometimes whipped by members of these same denominations




B.H. Roberts, referred in 1907 to the close personal friendship that had existed between the late Erastus Snow, a member of the Church’s governing Council of the Twelve Apostles, and Bishop Lawrence Scanlon of the Catholic Church. Said Roberts:

That friendship should be an object lesson to all the people of our state, that it is possible, notwithstanding we hold different views…in relation to religion…to dwell together as fellow citizens of our common country, without enmity or bitterness.15

All of this, and more, was a direct legacy of the teaching and example of Joseph Smith. “Friendship,” he taught,

is one of the grand fundamental principles of “Mormonism”; [it is designed] to revolutionize and civilize the world, and cause wars and contentions to cease and men to become friends and brothers.










So,  that should give one a better idea of Mormon's views in relation to other faiths.
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 9:02:00 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


So, let me get this straight. Joseph Smith appoints a Quorum of 12 and starts a new church because Catholics and Protestant's are heretics? Does this mean he appointed himself Jesus Christ and dismissed the original 12 Apostles and named for himself 12 new ones. By Websters definition of heretics he's the one that fits the bill.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I did. Your first sentence could be taken one of two ways. Either you and I are heretics. Or you and he think I'm a heretic. Given past posts which condemned me to eternal damnation for being Catholic, I assumed you meant the latter.
 


I don't think your a heratic.

I am simply pointing out the inconsistency of M-1975s argument.

He claims the early Catholic church was so inspired and divinely led to bring forth the Bible in purity, yet not inspired and divenly led enough to continue on. He disagrees with the Catholic interpretation, because he feels his is better or more correct.  Without the Catholic Church,  he wouldn't even have his Bible.

If one actually looks at it with reason and logic,   the only churches that have any legitimate claim to be the true Christian church are Catholics or Mormons.

Either the truth and authority given by the laying on of hands by Christ, continues on to this day through the Catholic church, or there was an apostasy after the apostles were killed off, and a restoration of the authority was needed  as I believe happened.

You can't take a live branch from a dead tree.  IF the Catholic Church lost its way as so many protestants  claim, then how is a man supposed to restore that authority which comes from God. One cannot take that honor upon themselves, but must be called of God.

I personally believe all churches have truth in them, but personally believe  many plain and simple truths were lost between the time Christ and the apostles spoke their words, and they were recorded.  That is why there are now over 30,000 different Christian sects and over 100 Bible translations.  Because of the simple truths that were lost, many stumble, trying to understand the doctrine,  all claiming their interpretation is the correct one.

It doesn't make anyone a heratic if they are living according to the truths they have.  I believe every person who ever lived on the earth will have a chance to hear the fullness of the truth of Christ's gospel, and accept him as Lord, whether it be in this life or the next.  
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'
- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811


"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God."
- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939


"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!
- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255


"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."


"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."


"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left."
- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41


"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."


"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346


"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great" "The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned the great the mighty the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109


"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85


But this is a different argument for a different thread. Just pointing out that Extractr either is speaking out of ignorance or deception.
   


So, let me get this straight. Joseph Smith appoints a Quorum of 12 and starts a new church because Catholics and Protestant's are heretics? Does this mean he appointed himself Jesus Christ and dismissed the original 12 Apostles and named for himself 12 new ones. By Websters definition of heretics he's the one that fits the bill.



Nope,  see previous post about Mormons views towards other religions.   Mormon's don't dismiss anything of Christs church.   It is Christ's restored church.  Christ has once again called apostles in these days to teach his gospel to the world.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 1:33:19 AM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So much for saying we are saved by faith, now you're making the case for works.

Grace isn't some mystical "force" that lets us work for salvation. It simply means that God gives the free gift of salvation for all who believe out of His own desire to do so. You can't give someone a gift then demand payment later - then it is not a gift.  
You don't "work for salvation". you work out of love for God.  As you show your love for him,  he blesses you with the gift of grace.   I'm sorry if you see obeying the commandments as a hard chore or some form of payment to God.  I see obeying them as a joy that brings more peace, happiness, and blessings to your life.  

A verse from the Book of Mormon that talks about the blessings from obedience.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?




View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:



If a person knowingly sinned his whole life,  understanding the commandments, and knowingly disobeying them, with the plan of simply accepting Christ on his deathbed, and getting out of jail free,  then yes I believe they will be damned.      If a person has not known the gospel while living his sinful life,  discovers it,  has a change of heart, repents, and accepts Christ through baptism before he dies, then that is a different story.  I believe the Lord will hold us accountable for the knowledge we have of his plan, and the level to which we knowingly rebel.

Do you believe a change of heart is required?

Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?
I know many pastors that will call people that do that saved, just because words were said.

All sin is rebellion, and you already admitted you sin. So how much sin is permissible? And are you familiar with the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard? We all get paid the same whether we come in the morning or the evening.

And now you are again betraying what you said earlier about faith...and taking Christ at His word that WHOSOVER believes shall not perish bit have everlasting life.

Which would be contradictory to his words when he said:"if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Perhaps both are important?



There are many books that talk about how obedience or some works are necessary.

In Hebrews 5 we read:

9. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And we obey by believing, see John 3:36, 5:40 and John 6:49.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." and  "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." By relying on what you do for your eternal status you in fact do not rely on Him; you are essentially saying "don't worry God, even though You say You died on the cross and gave me eternal life as a free gift, I don't believe you, so I'll just try to do it myself, because I'm better than those other sinners who believe what You said.

Again adding your own words and interpretation in.  

If only belief was necessary, he would have said:   he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that believe in him


That is not what he said though was it.   but a little word or two added to change the meaning and boom, suddenly it fits what you want it to fit.    Did you ever consider that Christ is telling you that obeying the commandments is needed also?   HE didn't mince his words.  He was pretty clear.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Paul mentions several times that sinners won't be saved:



In 1st Cor:  

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Read the context starting at verse 1, this is about Christians taking each other to court to have their disputes resolved by people who are spiritually dead, just like they were (see verse 10). This has nothing to do with salvation.

I guess salvation doesn't involve inheriting the kingdom of God then,  huh?   If  works didn't matter,  he simply would have said "the unbelievers shall not inherit the kingdom of God."  He didn't specify that it only applied to non-believers either.  Those that commit those sins,  will not be saved.



In Galatians we read

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This passage is about those who are not saved walking in the flesh, because they have not been born again of the spirit. BTW the word for "do" in v.21 is actually the Greek word for practice (prasso, Strong's #4238), which is the same word in Romans 7:19.
Interesting how you ignored the verse before this, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law." i.e., born agaian.


Same as before.  If only believing mattered,  he wouldn't have needed to spell out the sins that will cause one to be damned if they commit.


He tells the Ephesians, that even after they have become saints,  if they are unclean,covetous, or an idolater,  they will not receive an inheritance.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
This is similar to the last two verse you quoted out-of-context. It means that people who are not in Christ (who have not received eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone) will not get into heaven.
Paul does exhort people to walk in the spirit, and avoid sin, but never in the context of salvation/justification, because those who he's writing to are already saved. It's in the context of discipleship/sanctification.


Same as the last two.  He does not say no unclean "non-believer", or a covetous "non-believer".  He is telling them, if they do those things,  they will not be saved.  Look at the rest of the chapter.  He goes more in depth of works that they should be doing.




He tells the Phillipians:

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

This is in context of the persecution the Philippians were suffering, and "salvation here" is in reference to being delivered from that persecution, not salvation from God's judgement. If that were the case then Paul contradicts his own words in Romans 4:2-6, Ephesians 2:8-9 and elsewhere.


Or your interpretation is wrong, and the other verses are contradictory.  Funny how words mean the same to you (paradise)when you need them to fit your doctrine,  but they must have different meanings (salvation)when they dont.    


In Titus, we read:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


Read Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, THROUGH the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Paul cannot be contradicting himself in the same letter! Yes we should live that way, but it isn't a matter of salvation, faith towards God, or a prerequisite towards faith.


He is not contradicting himself.   He is saying that both faith and works are important.  You can do those things and still have grace apply the same.

An LDS scholar wrote an answer in relation to Romans 11:6

John A. Tvedtnes


In several of his epistles, Paul wrote that salvation came by grace, not works. For example, he wrote of Christ "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” He told the Romans that "if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” He asked his readers, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

Was Paul teaching that good works were not the basis of salvation? If so, how are we to understand passages like Revelation 20:12-13, which say that God will judge men "according to their works”? The answer lies within Paul’s epistles to the Romans and the Galatians, in which he clearly explained what he means by "works.” He declared that "Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.” He also wrote,

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

From these passages, it clear that Paul was saying that salvation did not come by the "works of the law,” meaning the law of Moses, but by the higher law brought by Christ. He did not teach that good works in general were not necessary for salvation, only that the law of Moses "was added because of transgressions…Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

You understand Revelation 20:12-13 as not a judgement of "heaven or no heaven" for believers, but a matter of those rewards for discipleship I was telling you about. And Paul's reasoning in Romans 11:6 is that works and grace are mutually exclusive. Your Mormon "scholar" then tries to use Romans 3 to attack the context of Romans 11! Yet he ignores how Paul transitioned from no justification by the law, to using Abraham as an example of one who was justified by faith before there was the law of Moses! Does this guy even read the context or is he just cherry-picking verses so people will keep tithing and the church can pay him?!

Wow, adding words again?  I guess if you must make the scriptures fit the preconceived doctrine instead, just say, "oh, that judgement is only for rewards".  Problem is, it doesn't say that.  It simply says:"and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ....and they were judged every man according to their works"  It doesn't talk about rewards, but damnation and hell fire.




It's also odd that if grace is all that is needed,  why did Christ never once mention that?   His whole life,  he never once mentioned that works were not important.

Christ's teachings:

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

At that time in His ministry, He was announcing the time had come, they were to change their minds (repent) and welcome the Messiah, but they did not. It's not a salvation verse.

Yea, just disregard Christ's words,  they aren't important.  It is at the very heart of salvation.



He upbraids many cities for their sins:

20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Sound like their evil works, not a lack of belief is what is going to doom and condemn them.



See last comment.

Other verses where Christ himself tells how living a good life is needed for salvation:


20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Which is ironic, because you're trying to teach the same thing the Pharisees did: that your outward righteousness reflects your inward reality, when in fact it does not. The only human that is righteous is Christ, and God gives us that righteousness by faith.

No I am not proclaiming that.  I am proclaiming Christ expects us to show our love for him and be righteous, or we will not enter his kingdom.  Christs words are very clear and easy to understand.   It's funny how you like to complicate them.


16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Yeah the Rich Young Ruler, who if you read the whole thing, was convinced of his own righteousness (he claimed to do all of the law, which was a lie). BTW Jesus told him to sell what he had and give to the poor; have you done this?  

Isn't that kind of what Judas did?   Gave up everything?



24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Discipleship verse.

Again, your interpretation.



47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
Discipleship. Yes we should listen to the wisdom of God, because as the Creator of the universe He has told us what will benefit us spiritually, but again, this isn't about justification before God, this is about wisdom.
Again, your interpretation.


21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Read the context. Starting in verse 15 he talks about false teachers and knowing them by their fruits (words), then in verse 21 He describes how those false teachers will come before Him and proclaim all their amazing works, which Christ will not deny, but instead will deny them on the basis of "I never KNEW YOU". BTW what's the will of the Father? ""And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40)


Actually in context, it sounds exactly like the doctrine you are trying to claim as gospel.  Saying that "Lord, Lord" is all that is needed for salvation.  and then continuing in sin hoping that grace will abound.  I think the Lord was warning the true believers about people just like you with the doctrine your preaching.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What is the will of the father.  He made it pretty clear.  1.Love God by  keeping his commandments.





For Christ,  the DO was very important.    If only grace was needed,  I'm sure the master would have mentioned it. "For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)
So much for saying we are saved by faith, now you're making the case for works.

Grace isn't some mystical "force" that lets us work for salvation. It simply means that God gives the free gift of salvation for all who believe out of His own desire to do so. You can't give someone a gift then demand payment later - then it is not a gift.  
You don't "work for salvation". you work out of love for God.  As you show your love for him,  he blesses you with the gift of grace.   I'm sorry if you see obeying the commandments as a hard chore or some form of payment to God.  I see obeying them as a joy that brings more peace, happiness, and blessings to your life.  

A verse from the Book of Mormon that talks about the blessings from obedience.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?








Nice of you to dodge the question:


Do you believe a change of heart is required?

Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?
I know many pastors that will call people that do that saved, just because words were said.





When you look at it from your interpretation(which is all it is) add a few words here or there to make things coherent,  I guess you can make the scriptures say anything you want.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 8:14:25 AM EDT
[#34]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nope,  see previous post about Mormons views towards other religions.   Mormon's don't dismiss anything of Christs church.   It is Christ's restored church.  Christ has once again called apostles in these days to teach his gospel to the world.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

I did. Your first sentence could be taken one of two ways. Either you and I are heretics. Or you and he think I'm a heretic. Given past posts which condemned me to eternal damnation for being Catholic, I assumed you meant the latter.

 




I don't think your a heratic.



I am simply pointing out the inconsistency of M-1975s argument.



He claims the early Catholic church was so inspired and divinely led to bring forth the Bible in purity, yet not inspired and divenly led enough to continue on. He disagrees with the Catholic interpretation, because he feels his is better or more correct.  Without the Catholic Church,  he wouldn't even have his Bible.



If one actually looks at it with reason and logic,   the only churches that have any legitimate claim to be the true Christian church are Catholics or Mormons.



Either the truth and authority given by the laying on of hands by Christ, continues on to this day through the Catholic church, or there was an apostasy after the apostles were killed off, and a restoration of the authority was needed  as I believe happened.



You can't take a live branch from a dead tree.  IF the Catholic Church lost its way as so many protestants  claim, then how is a man supposed to restore that authority which comes from God. One cannot take that honor upon themselves, but must be called of God.



I personally believe all churches have truth in them, but personally believe  many plain and simple truths were lost between the time Christ and the apostles spoke their words, and they were recorded.  That is why there are now over 30,000 different Christian sects and over 100 Bible translations.  Because of the simple truths that were lost, many stumble, trying to understand the doctrine,  all claiming their interpretation is the correct one.



It doesn't make anyone a heratic if they are living according to the truths they have.  I believe every person who ever lived on the earth will have a chance to hear the fullness of the truth of Christ's gospel, and accept him as Lord, whether it be in this life or the next.  

"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'

- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811





"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God."

- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939





"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!

- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255





"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."





"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."





"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left."

- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41





"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."





"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain."

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346





"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great" "The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned the great the mighty the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms."

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109





"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven."

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85





But this is a different argument for a different thread. Just pointing out that Extractr either is speaking out of ignorance or deception.

   




So, let me get this straight. Joseph Smith appoints a Quorum of 12 and starts a new church because Catholics and Protestant's are heretics? Does this mean he appointed himself Jesus Christ and dismissed the original 12 Apostles and named for himself 12 new ones. By Websters definition of heretics he's the one that fits the bill.






Nope,  see previous post about Mormons views towards other religions.   Mormon's don't dismiss anything of Christs church.   It is Christ's restored church.  Christ has once again called apostles in these days to teach his gospel to the world.

So are you an apostle?Do your words carry more weight than those quoted above?

 
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 8:25:38 AM EDT
[#35]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nice of you to dodge the question:
Do you believe a change of heart is required?





Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?


I know many pastors that will call people that do that saved, just because words were said.
When you look at it from your interpretation(which is all it is) add a few words here or there to make things coherent,  I guess you can make the scriptures say anything you want.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





Quoted:




Quoted:
If a person knowingly sinned his whole life,  understanding the commandments, and knowingly disobeying them, with the plan of simply accepting Christ on his deathbed, and getting out of jail free,  then yes I believe they will be damned.      If a person has not known the gospel while living his sinful life,  discovers it,  has a change of heart, repents, and accepts Christ through baptism before he dies, then that is a different story.  I believe the Lord will hold us accountable for the knowledge we have of his plan, and the level to which we knowingly rebel.





Do you believe a change of heart is required?





Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?


I know many pastors that will call people that do that saved, just because words were said.





All sin is rebellion, and you already admitted you sin. So how much sin is permissible? And are you familiar with the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard? We all get paid the same whether we come in the morning or the evening.





And now you are again betraying what you said earlier about faith...and taking Christ at His word that WHOSOVER believes shall not perish bit have everlasting life.





Which would be contradictory to his words when he said:"if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."





Perhaps both are important?



There are many books that talk about how obedience or some works are necessary.





In Hebrews 5 we read:





9. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;





And we obey by believing, see John 3:36, 5:40 and John 6:49.





Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." and  "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." By relying on what you do for your eternal status you in fact do not rely on Him; you are essentially saying "don't worry God, even though You say You died on the cross and gave me eternal life as a free gift, I don't believe you, so I'll just try to do it myself, because I'm better than those other sinners who believe what You said.





Again adding your own words and interpretation in.  





If only belief was necessary, he would have said:   he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that believe in him
That is not what he said though was it.   but a little word or two added to change the meaning and boom, suddenly it fits what you want it to fit.    Did you ever consider that Christ is telling you that obeying the commandments is needed also?   HE didn't mince his words.  He was pretty clear.





Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


15If ye love me, keep my commandments.








Paul mentions several times that sinners won't be saved:
In 1st Cor:  





9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Read the context starting at verse 1, this is about Christians taking each other to court to have their disputes resolved by people who are spiritually dead, just like they were (see verse 10). This has nothing to do with salvation.





I guess salvation doesn't involve inheriting the kingdom of God then,  huh?   If  works didn't matter,  he simply would have said "the unbelievers shall not inherit the kingdom of God."  He didn't specify that it only applied to non-believers either.  Those that commit those sins,  will not be saved.



In Galatians we read





19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,





20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,





21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.





This passage is about those who are not saved walking in the flesh, because they have not been born again of the spirit. BTW the word for "do" in v.21 is actually the Greek word for practice (prasso, Strong's #4238), which is the same word in Romans 7:19.


Interesting how you ignored the verse before this, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law." i.e., born agaian.






Same as before.  If only believing mattered,  he wouldn't have needed to spell out the sins that will cause one to be damned if they commit.
He tells the Ephesians, that even after they have become saints,  if they are unclean,covetous, or an idolater,  they will not receive an inheritance.





3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;





4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.





5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


This is similar to the last two verse you quoted out-of-context. It means that people who are not in Christ (who have not received eternal life by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone) will not get into heaven.


Paul does exhort people to walk in the spirit, and avoid sin, but never in the context of salvation/justification, because those who he's writing to are already saved. It's in the context of discipleship/sanctification.






Same as the last two.  He does not say no unclean "non-believer", or a covetous "non-believer".  He is telling them, if they do those things,  they will not be saved.  Look at the rest of the chapter.  He goes more in depth of works that they should be doing.

He tells the Phillipians:





12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.





This is in context of the persecution the Philippians were suffering, and "salvation here" is in reference to being delivered from that persecution, not salvation from God's judgement. If that were the case then Paul contradicts his own words in Romans 4:2-6, Ephesians 2:8-9 and elsewhere.








Or your interpretation is wrong, and the other verses are contradictory.  Funny how words mean the same to you (paradise)when you need them to fit your doctrine,  but they must have different meanings (salvation)when they dont.    
In Titus, we read:





11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,





12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Read Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, THROUGH the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Paul cannot be contradicting himself in the same letter! Yes we should live that way, but it isn't a matter of salvation, faith towards God, or a prerequisite towards faith.






He is not contradicting himself.   He is saying that both faith and works are important.  You can do those things and still have grace apply the same.





An LDS scholar wrote an answer in relation to Romans 11:6





John A. Tvedtnes
In several of his epistles, Paul wrote that salvation came by grace, not works. For example, he wrote of Christ "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” He told the Romans that "if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” He asked his readers, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”





Was Paul teaching that good works were not the basis of salvation? If so, how are we to understand passages like Revelation 20:12-13, which say that God will judge men "according to their works”? The answer lies within Paul’s epistles to the Romans and the Galatians, in which he clearly explained what he means by "works.” He declared that "Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.” He also wrote,





We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.





From these passages, it clear that Paul was saying that salvation did not come by the "works of the law,” meaning the law of Moses, but by the higher law brought by Christ. He did not teach that good works in general were not necessary for salvation, only that the law of Moses "was added because of transgressions…Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.





You understand Revelation 20:12-13 as not a judgement of "heaven or no heaven" for believers, but a matter of those rewards for discipleship I was telling you about. And Paul's reasoning in Romans 11:6 is that works and grace are mutually exclusive. Your Mormon "scholar" then tries to use Romans 3 to attack the context of Romans 11! Yet he ignores how Paul transitioned from no justification by the law, to using Abraham as an example of one who was justified by faith before there was the law of Moses! Does this guy even read the context or is he just cherry-picking verses so people will keep tithing and the church can pay him?!





Wow, adding words again?  I guess if you must make the scriptures fit the preconceived doctrine instead, just say, "oh, that judgement is only for rewards".  Problem is, it doesn't say that.  It simply says:"and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ....and they were judged every man according to their works"  It doesn't talk about rewards, but damnation and hell fire.






It's also odd that if grace is all that is needed,  why did Christ never once mention that?   His whole life,  he never once mentioned that works were not important.





Christ's teachings:





"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."





At that time in His ministry, He was announcing the time had come, they were to change their minds (repent) and welcome the Messiah, but they did not. It's not a salvation verse.





Yea, just disregard Christ's words,  they aren't important.  It is at the very heart of salvation.



He upbraids many cities for their sins:





20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:


21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.


22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.


23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.


24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.





Sound like their evil works, not a lack of belief is what is going to doom and condemn them.

See last comment.





Other verses where Christ himself tells how living a good life is needed for salvation:
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.





Which is ironic, because you're trying to teach the same thing the Pharisees did: that your outward righteousness reflects your inward reality, when in fact it does not. The only human that is righteous is Christ, and God gives us that righteousness by faith.





No I am not proclaiming that.  I am proclaiming Christ expects us to show our love for him and be righteous, or we will not enter his kingdom.  Christs words are very clear and easy to understand.   It's funny how you like to complicate them.
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?


17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.





Yeah the Rich Young Ruler, who if you read the whole thing, was convinced of his own righteousness (he claimed to do all of the law, which was a lie). BTW Jesus told him to sell what he had and give to the poor; have you done this?  





Isn't that kind of what Judas did?   Gave up everything?



24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Discipleship verse.





Again, your interpretation.
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:


49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


Discipleship. Yes we should listen to the wisdom of God, because as the Creator of the universe He has told us what will benefit us spiritually, but again, this isn't about justification before God, this is about wisdom.


Again, your interpretation.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.





Read the context. Starting in verse 15 he talks about false teachers and knowing them by their fruits (words), then in verse 21 He describes how those false teachers will come before Him and proclaim all their amazing works, which Christ will not deny, but instead will deny them on the basis of "I never KNEW YOU". BTW what's the will of the Father? ""And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40)








Actually in context, it sounds exactly like the doctrine you are trying to claim as gospel.  Saying that "Lord, Lord" is all that is needed for salvation.  and then continuing in sin hoping that grace will abound.  I think the Lord was warning the true believers about people just like you with the doctrine your preaching.





21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.





What is the will of the father.  He made it pretty clear.  1.Love God by  keeping his commandments.

For Christ,  the DO was very important.    If only grace was needed,  I'm sure the master would have mentioned it. "For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)
So much for saying we are saved by faith, now you're making the case for works.





Grace isn't some mystical "force" that lets us work for salvation. It simply means that God gives the free gift of salvation for all who believe out of His own desire to do so. You can't give someone a gift then demand payment later - then it is not a gift.  


You don't "work for salvation". you work out of love for God.  As you show your love for him,  he blesses you with the gift of grace.   I'm sorry if you see obeying the commandments as a hard chore or some form of payment to God.  I see obeying them as a joy that brings more peace, happiness, and blessings to your life.  





A verse from the Book of Mormon that talks about the blessings from obedience.





23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.





24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?




Nice of you to dodge the question:
Do you believe a change of heart is required?





Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?


I know many pastors that will call people that do that saved, just because words were said.
When you look at it from your interpretation(which is all it is) add a few words here or there to make things coherent,  I guess you can make the scriptures say anything you want.
Your responses to the individual scriptures ignore context of the verses, and ignore Christ's own words. You can't argue that these verses promote works in salvation when a) the contexts are not about salvation, and b) interpreting them as such would contradict very plain and clear verses teaching otherwise, such as Romans 3 and 4, 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3, Revelation 22:17, and that giant list of verses on faith alone I posted than you conveniently ignored.





As far a as change of heart, Christ said we must be born again, which is to receive the new nature and be born of the spirit. One can still follow after the old carnal nature, so you can't tell by looking or fruit inspecting. Again Judas did all those things to appear that he believed, but he didn't actually believe (again John 6:64). This is a basic teaching that many of the verses on condemnation of those walking on the flesh hinge on, because while our born again spirit will be with the Lord, the carnal flesh will perish. You can't make a coherent interpretation of verses like 1 John 3:4-10 without knowing about the two natures.





And my question on giving up what you own had nothing to do with Judas; I'm asking YOU if you have done what Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler to do, if indeed he was telling him how to be saved by faith and not challenging him to continue to try to be saved by his works (which he can't do). So...when's the garage sale?


 
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 8:30:24 AM EDT
[#36]
So since I gave you explanations to verses that you brought up, I think it's only fair that you explain how these verse do NOT support the idea that faith, and only faith (which in Greek means "trust") is required for eternal life:






Luke 7:48-50 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.







Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.







Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.







John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.







John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:







John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.







John 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.







John 3:15-18 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.







John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.







John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.







John 4:41-42 And many more believed because of his own word; And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.







John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.







John 5:45-47 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.  For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.  But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?







John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.







John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.







John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.







John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.







John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)







John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.







John 8:29-30 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him.







John 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.







John 10:24-26 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.







John 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.







John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?







John 11:41-42 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.







John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.







John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.







John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.







John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.







John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.







John 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.







John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.







John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.







Acts 3:16  And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.







Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.







Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.







Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.







Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.







Acts 9:42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.







Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.







Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.







Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?







Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.







Acts 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.







Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.







Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.







Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.







Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.







Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.







Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.







Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.







Acts 17:4-5 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.







Acts 17:11-12 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.







Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.







Acts 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:







Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.







Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.







Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.







Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.







Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.







Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.







Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:







Romans 3:25-28 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.







Romans 3:30  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.







Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.







Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.







Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.







Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:







Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.







Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,







Romans 4:23-24 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;







Romans 5:1-2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.







Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.







Romans 9:32-33 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.







Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.







Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)







Romans 10:8-10 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (Salvation here means deliverance from temporal threats or God’s chastening).







Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:






Romans 11:30-32 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.







Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.







1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.







2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.







Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.







Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.







Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?







Galatians 3:5-9 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.







Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.







Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.







Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.







Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.







Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.







Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.







Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,







Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,







Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:







Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,







Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;







Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:







1 Thessalonians 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.







1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:







1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.







2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.







2 Thessalonians 2:12-13 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:







2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.







1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.







1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.







1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.







1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.







2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.







2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.







Hebrews 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.







Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.







Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.







Hebrews 11:6-7 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.







Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.







James 2:2-3 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:







1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.







1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.







1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.







1 Peter 2:6-7 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,







1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.







1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?







1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.







1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.







Jude 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


 
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 10:09:47 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Nope,  see previous post about Mormons views towards other religions.   Mormon's don't dismiss anything of Christs church.   It is Christ's restored church.  Christ has once again called apostles in these days to teach his gospel to the world.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I did. Your first sentence could be taken one of two ways. Either you and I are heretics. Or you and he think I'm a heretic. Given past posts which condemned me to eternal damnation for being Catholic, I assumed you meant the latter.
 


I don't think your a heratic.

I am simply pointing out the inconsistency of M-1975s argument.

He claims the early Catholic church was so inspired and divinely led to bring forth the Bible in purity, yet not inspired and divenly led enough to continue on. He disagrees with the Catholic interpretation, because he feels his is better or more correct.  Without the Catholic Church,  he wouldn't even have his Bible.

If one actually looks at it with reason and logic,   the only churches that have any legitimate claim to be the true Christian church are Catholics or Mormons.

Either the truth and authority given by the laying on of hands by Christ, continues on to this day through the Catholic church, or there was an apostasy after the apostles were killed off, and a restoration of the authority was needed  as I believe happened.

You can't take a live branch from a dead tree.  IF the Catholic Church lost its way as so many protestants  claim, then how is a man supposed to restore that authority which comes from God. One cannot take that honor upon themselves, but must be called of God.

I personally believe all churches have truth in them, but personally believe  many plain and simple truths were lost between the time Christ and the apostles spoke their words, and they were recorded.  That is why there are now over 30,000 different Christian sects and over 100 Bible translations.  Because of the simple truths that were lost, many stumble, trying to understand the doctrine,  all claiming their interpretation is the correct one.

It doesn't make anyone a heratic if they are living according to the truths they have.  I believe every person who ever lived on the earth will have a chance to hear the fullness of the truth of Christ's gospel, and accept him as Lord, whether it be in this life or the next.  
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.'
- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811


"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God."
- Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939


"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!
- Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255


"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."


"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."


"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left."
- Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41


"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."


"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346


"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great" "The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned the great the mighty the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109


"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85


But this is a different argument for a different thread. Just pointing out that Extractr either is speaking out of ignorance or deception.
   


So, let me get this straight. Joseph Smith appoints a Quorum of 12 and starts a new church because Catholics and Protestant's are heretics? Does this mean he appointed himself Jesus Christ and dismissed the original 12 Apostles and named for himself 12 new ones. By Websters definition of heretics he's the one that fits the bill.



Nope,  see previous post about Mormons views towards other religions.   Mormon's don't dismiss anything of Christs church.   It is Christ's restored church.  Christ has once again called apostles in these days to teach his gospel to the world.

So Joseph Smith became the "new" Christ?
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 3:48:57 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

So Joseph Smith became the "new" Christ?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


Nope,  see previous post about Mormons views towards other religions.   Mormon's don't dismiss anything of Christs church.   It is Christ's restored church.  Christ has once again called apostles in these days to teach his gospel to the world.

So Joseph Smith became the "new" Christ?



No he was called to be a prophet,  just as Moses,Abraham, Noah or any other Bible Prophet.  He is no more then a man.  Christ is the head of the Church, and is who we worship. Christ has also called apostles in these days to serve as witnesses for him.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 4:00:14 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So are you an apostle?Do your words carry more weight than those quoted above?  
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


Nope,  see previous post about Mormons views towards other religions.   Mormon's don't dismiss anything of Christs church.   It is Christ's restored church.  Christ has once again called apostles in these days to teach his gospel to the world.
So are you an apostle?Do your words carry more weight than those quoted above?  



Well, they probably carry more weight then the author disowned source you cite, claimed as false doctrine by the church.


But i will let the words and actions of the prophets and apostles I quoted, speak for my churches true view of other faiths.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 5:59:36 PM EDT
[#40]
Its interesting to me that in posting a huge number of quotes, or Bible verses, with an accompanying question is rather disingenuous form of query. If someone responds to the question, the retort is usually, 'what about all the rest I posted?' Really a bogus technique IMO.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 8:28:45 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So since I gave you explanations to verses that you brought up, I think it's only fair that you explain how these verse do NOT support the idea that faith, and only faith (which in Greek means "trust") is required for eternal life:

Luke 7:48-50 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.


Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.


Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.


John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.


John 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


John 3:15-18 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.


John 4:41-42 And many more believed because of his own word; And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.


John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


John 5:45-47 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.  For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.  But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.


John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


John 8:29-30 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him.


John 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.


John 10:24-26 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


John 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.


John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


John 11:41-42 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.


John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.


John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.


John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.


John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.


John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


John 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.


John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Acts 3:16  And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.


Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.


Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.


Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.


Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.


Acts 9:42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.


Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.


Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?


Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.


Acts 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.


Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.


Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.


Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.


Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.


Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.


Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


Acts 17:4-5 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.


Acts 17:11-12 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.


Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.


Acts 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:


Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.


Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.


Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.


Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


Romans 3:25-28 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Romans 3:30  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.


Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:


Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.


Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


Romans 4:23-24 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;


Romans 5:1-2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.


Romans 9:32-33 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)


Romans 10:8-10 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (Salvation here means deliverance from temporal threats or God’s chastening).


Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


Romans 11:30-32 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.


1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


Galatians 3:5-9 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,


Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


1 Thessalonians 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.


1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:


1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


2 Thessalonians 2:12-13 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.


1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.


1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.


2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


Hebrews 4:2-3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


Hebrews 11:6-7 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.


James 2:2-3 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:


1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.


1 Peter 2:6-7 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,


1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Jude 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
 
View Quote




Because you are looking at the Bible with blinders on.   You are so focused on making sure the bible fits your preconceived doctrine,  that you are unable to look at something from a different viewpoint.


We both agree that faith and belief are important to be saved.   You share a few verses that say works won't save you, and have two ways to look at it.



1. Look at the rest of the Bible, see Christ's teachings about all the good he teaches we should do,  realize that even if we do good all our lives,  we will still sin, and fall short of God's glory, thus only by believing in Christ, can his grace overcome those sins and save us.


Or the complete opposite extreme view


2.   Because works won't buy us salvation,  it is a sin to try an do good things,  so we don't need to do absolutely anything except believe and Grace does the rest.



You claim that faith and works are contradictory.    They are not  The only way they are contradictory is if someone is doing good with the intent that they are trying to earn their salvation, and denying Christ in the process.



The entirety of the Bible, is God telling men through his prophets, Son, or apostles, over and over to repent of their sins and do good.  

In both examples I listed,  Grace is what brings the salvation.  It is a free gift in both situations, and without it, neither is saved.



God does expect us to live righteously.  but he doesn't expect us to be perfect.  That is why he sent his son,  to make up the difference when we err.



Link Posted: 5/15/2016 8:55:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Your responses to the individual scriptures ignore context of the verses, and ignore Christ's own words. You can't argue that these verses promote works in salvation when a) the contexts are not about salvation, and b) interpreting them as such would contradict very plain and clear verses teaching otherwise, such as Romans 3 and 4, 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3, Revelation 22:17, and that giant list of verses on faith alone I posted than you conveniently ignored.

As far a as change of heart, Christ said we must be born again, which is to receive the new nature and be born of the spirit. One can still follow after the old carnal nature, so you can't tell by looking or fruit inspecting. Again Judas did all those things to appear that he believed, but he didn't actually believe (again John 6:64). This is a basic teaching that many of the verses on condemnation of those walking on the flesh hinge on, because while our born again spirit will be with the Lord, the carnal flesh will perish. You can't make a coherent interpretation of verses like 1 John 3:4-10 without knowing about the two natures.

And my question on giving up what you own had nothing to do with Judas; I'm asking YOU if you have done what Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler to do, if indeed he was telling him how to be saved by faith and not challenging him to continue to try to be saved by his works (which he can't do). So...when's the garage sale?  
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


Nice of you to dodge the question:


Do you believe a change of heart is required?

Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?
I know many pastors that will call people that do that saved, just because words were said.





When you look at it from your interpretation(which is all it is) add a few words here or there to make things coherent,  I guess you can make the scriptures say anything you want.
Your responses to the individual scriptures ignore context of the verses, and ignore Christ's own words. You can't argue that these verses promote works in salvation when a) the contexts are not about salvation, and b) interpreting them as such would contradict very plain and clear verses teaching otherwise, such as Romans 3 and 4, 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3, Revelation 22:17, and that giant list of verses on faith alone I posted than you conveniently ignored.

As far a as change of heart, Christ said we must be born again, which is to receive the new nature and be born of the spirit. One can still follow after the old carnal nature, so you can't tell by looking or fruit inspecting. Again Judas did all those things to appear that he believed, but he didn't actually believe (again John 6:64). This is a basic teaching that many of the verses on condemnation of those walking on the flesh hinge on, because while our born again spirit will be with the Lord, the carnal flesh will perish. You can't make a coherent interpretation of verses like 1 John 3:4-10 without knowing about the two natures.

And my question on giving up what you own had nothing to do with Judas; I'm asking YOU if you have done what Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler to do, if indeed he was telling him how to be saved by faith and not challenging him to continue to try to be saved by his works (which he can't do). So...when's the garage sale?  





Interesting not one of those verses say "faith alone", or "only faith" is required.

Adding words again to make scriptures fit your doctrine.

I agree faith is required, but as  Christ teaches, Obeying his commandments is important also.


Maybe you need to reread John 6.   He was talking to the disciples when he said:"some of you that believe not",  not the apostles.  He turns and addresses the apostles a few verses later.


So,
Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?


It is a simple yes or no answer.   are you not sure enough in your doctrine to provide a yes or no answer?
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 9:19:30 PM EDT
[#43]




Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
 
Because you are looking at the Bible with blinders on.   You are so focused on making sure the bible fits your preconceived doctrine,  that you are unable to look at something from a different viewpoint.
We both agree that faith and belief are important to be saved.   You share a few verses that say works won't save you, and have two ways to look at it.
1. Look at the rest of the Bible, see Christ's teachings about all the good he teaches we should do,  realize that even if we do good all our lives,  we will still sin, and fall short of God's glory, thus only by believing in Christ, can his grace overcome those sins and save us.
Or the complete opposite extreme view
2.   Because works won't buy us salvation,  it is a sin to try an do good things,  so we don't need to do absolutely anything except believe and Grace does the rest.





You claim that faith and works are contradictory.
  They are not  The only way they are contradictory is if someone is doing good with the intent that they are trying to earn their salvation, and denying Christ in the process.
The entirety of the Bible, is God telling men through his prophets, Son, or apostles, over and over to repent of their sins and do good.  
In both examples I listed,  Grace is what brings the salvation.  It is a free gift in both situations, and without it, neither is saved.
God does expect us to live righteously.  but he doesn't expect us to be perfect.  That is why he sent his son,  to make up the difference when we err.
View Quote
No, the BIBLE states that grace and work are mutually exclusive. You can't claim to give someone a gift if you demand payment as a result, nor can you demand work and call it grace. That's the point of Romans 11:6. Christ does not "make up the difference", that's mixing grace and work, which Romans 11:6 denies is possible and Ephesians 2:8-9 says that it's all grace and not by work. So there is no "well grace brings salvation..but without works no one is saved" That's not Biblical, and by the logic of God it's an inherent contradiction, and doesn't even pass the common sense test.
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit - 1 Peter 3:18.








For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord - Romans 6:23
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:8-14
The Bible speaks of losing rewards due to lack of work, but not salvation, which is a free gift.






ETA: added the definition of "Godhead", which in Greek is defined as "the state of being God".



 
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 9:27:09 PM EDT
[#44]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Interesting not one of those verses say "faith alone", or "only faith" is required.





Adding words again to make scriptures fit your doctrine.





I agree faith is required, but as  Christ teaches, Obeying his commandments is important also.
Maybe you need to reread John 6.   He was talking to the disciples when he said:"some of you that believe not",  not the apostles.  He turns and addresses the apostles a few verses later.
So,


Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?
It is a simple yes or no answer.   are you not sure enough in your doctrine to provide a yes or no answer?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





Quoted:




Quoted:
Nice of you to dodge the question:
Do you believe a change of heart is required?





Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?


I know many pastors that will call people that do that saved, just because words were said.
When you look at it from your interpretation(which is all it is) add a few words here or there to make things coherent,  I guess you can make the scriptures say anything you want.
Your responses to the individual scriptures ignore context of the verses, and ignore Christ's own words. You can't argue that these verses promote works in salvation when a) the contexts are not about salvation, and b) interpreting them as such would contradict very plain and clear verses teaching otherwise, such as Romans 3 and 4, 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3, Revelation 22:17, and that giant list of verses on faith alone I posted than you conveniently ignored.





As far a as change of heart, Christ said we must be born again, which is to receive the new nature and be born of the spirit. One can still follow after the old carnal nature, so you can't tell by looking or fruit inspecting. Again Judas did all those things to appear that he believed, but he didn't actually believe (again John 6:64). This is a basic teaching that many of the verses on condemnation of those walking on the flesh hinge on, because while our born again spirit will be with the Lord, the carnal flesh will perish. You can't make a coherent interpretation of verses like 1 John 3:4-10 without knowing about the two natures.





And my question on giving up what you own had nothing to do with Judas; I'm asking YOU if you have done what Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler to do, if indeed he was telling him how to be saved by faith and not challenging him to continue to try to be saved by his works (which he can't do). So...when's the garage sale?  

Interesting not one of those verses say "faith alone", or "only faith" is required.





Adding words again to make scriptures fit your doctrine.





I agree faith is required, but as  Christ teaches, Obeying his commandments is important also.
Maybe you need to reread John 6.   He was talking to the disciples when he said:"some of you that believe not",  not the apostles.  He turns and addresses the apostles a few verses later.
So,


Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?
It is a simple yes or no answer.   are you not sure enough in your doctrine to provide a yes or no answer?
There is no fine print in these verses, they say things like "free gift" "grace" "not of works" "not of yourselves" and explain that one is justified before God by faith, but not by works of the law or works period, and can be justified even without any works. If that isn't faith alone I don't know what is - but the fact is that when it talks about salvation it only mentions faith...and nothing else, hence faith alone.





Salvation isn't via magical spell, God simply asks for our trust, i.e. faith, in the FINISHED work of Christ, as opposed to ourselves. BTW we have an example in Luke 7 of someone who was saved without ANY words.





As for John 6, You need to pay attention to what is being said instead of what you want it to say. It specifically mentions that the one who did not believe would betray Him, that would be Judas.





Is it so hard to place all your trust in Christ? As if He's got his fingers crossed behind His back?


 
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 9:29:35 PM EDT
[#45]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Its interesting to me that in posting a huge number of quotes, or Bible verses, with an accompanying question is rather disingenuous form of query. If someone responds to the question, the retort is usually, 'what about all the rest I posted?' Really a bogus technique IMO.
View Quote




 
I explained the verses he was misunderstanding; he can't do the same for me because they are plainly stated....interesting how the Holy Spirit wrote it that way.




The faith of little children you know...
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 10:37:18 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No, the BIBLE states that grace and work are mutually exclusive. You can't claim to give someone a gift if you demand payment as a result, nor can you demand work and call it grace. That's the point of Romans 11:6. Christ does not "make up the difference", that's mixing grace and work, which Romans 11:6 denies is possible and Ephesians 2:8-9 says that it's all grace and not by work. So there is no "well grace brings salvation..but without works no one is saved" That's not Biblical, and by the logic of God it's an inherent contradiction, and doesn't even pass the common sense test.

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit - 1 Peter 3:18.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord - Romans 6:23

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:8-14

The Bible speaks of losing rewards due to lack of work, but not salvation, which is a free gift.


ETA: added the definition of "Godhead", which in Greek is defined as "the state of being God".
 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

 



Because you are looking at the Bible with blinders on.   You are so focused on making sure the bible fits your preconceived doctrine,  that you are unable to look at something from a different viewpoint.


We both agree that faith and belief are important to be saved.   You share a few verses that say works won't save you, and have two ways to look at it.



1. Look at the rest of the Bible, see Christ's teachings about all the good he teaches we should do,  realize that even if we do good all our lives,  we will still sin, and fall short of God's glory, thus only by believing in Christ, can his grace overcome those sins and save us.


Or the complete opposite extreme view


2.   Because works won't buy us salvation,  it is a sin to try an do good things,  so we don't need to do absolutely anything except believe and Grace does the rest.



You claim that faith and works are contradictory.
  They are not  The only way they are contradictory is if someone is doing good with the intent that they are trying to earn their salvation, and denying Christ in the process.



The entirety of the Bible, is God telling men through his prophets, Son, or apostles, over and over to repent of their sins and do good.  

In both examples I listed,  Grace is what brings the salvation.  It is a free gift in both situations, and without it, neither is saved.



God does expect us to live righteously.  but he doesn't expect us to be perfect.  That is why he sent his son,  to make up the difference when we err.



No, the BIBLE states that grace and work are mutually exclusive. You can't claim to give someone a gift if you demand payment as a result, nor can you demand work and call it grace. That's the point of Romans 11:6. Christ does not "make up the difference", that's mixing grace and work, which Romans 11:6 denies is possible and Ephesians 2:8-9 says that it's all grace and not by work. So there is no "well grace brings salvation..but without works no one is saved" That's not Biblical, and by the logic of God it's an inherent contradiction, and doesn't even pass the common sense test.

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit - 1 Peter 3:18.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord - Romans 6:23

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:8-14

The Bible speaks of losing rewards due to lack of work, but not salvation, which is a free gift.


ETA: added the definition of "Godhead", which in Greek is defined as "the state of being God".
 


As I said, blinders on.  


You cannot let go of the idea that the only reason a person could possibly want to do good works is for "payment".    Until you realize there are other reasons people obey,  you are hopeless to understand.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 10:38:25 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

  I explained the verses he was misunderstanding; he can't do the same for me because they are plainly stated....interesting how the Holy Spirit wrote it that way.


The faith of little children you know...
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Its interesting to me that in posting a huge number of quotes, or Bible verses, with an accompanying question is rather disingenuous form of query. If someone responds to the question, the retort is usually, 'what about all the rest I posted?' Really a bogus technique IMO.

  I explained the verses he was misunderstanding; he can't do the same for me because they are plainly stated....interesting how the Holy Spirit wrote it that way.


The faith of little children you know...



So plainly stated, that you only need to add a couple words to fit your doctrine.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 10:47:59 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There is no fine print in these verses, they say things like "free gift" "grace" "not of works" "not of yourselves" and explain that one is justified before God by faith, but not by works of the law or works period, and can be justified even without any works. If that isn't faith alone I don't know what is - but the fact is that when it talks about salvation it only mentions faith...and nothing else, hence faith alone.

Salvation isn't via magical spell, God simply asks for our trust, i.e. faith, in the FINISHED work of Christ, as opposed to ourselves. BTW we have an example in Luke 7 of someone who was saved without ANY words.

As for John 6, You need to pay attention to what is being said instead of what you want it to say. It specifically mentions that the one who did not believe would betray Him, that would be Judas.

Is it so hard to place all your trust in Christ? As if He's got his fingers crossed behind His back?  
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


Nice of you to dodge the question:


Do you believe a change of heart is required?

Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?
I know many pastors that will call people that do that saved, just because words were said.





When you look at it from your interpretation(which is all it is) add a few words here or there to make things coherent,  I guess you can make the scriptures say anything you want.
Your responses to the individual scriptures ignore context of the verses, and ignore Christ's own words. You can't argue that these verses promote works in salvation when a) the contexts are not about salvation, and b) interpreting them as such would contradict very plain and clear verses teaching otherwise, such as Romans 3 and 4, 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3, Revelation 22:17, and that giant list of verses on faith alone I posted than you conveniently ignored.

As far a as change of heart, Christ said we must be born again, which is to receive the new nature and be born of the spirit. One can still follow after the old carnal nature, so you can't tell by looking or fruit inspecting. Again Judas did all those things to appear that he believed, but he didn't actually believe (again John 6:64). This is a basic teaching that many of the verses on condemnation of those walking on the flesh hinge on, because while our born again spirit will be with the Lord, the carnal flesh will perish. You can't make a coherent interpretation of verses like 1 John 3:4-10 without knowing about the two natures.

And my question on giving up what you own had nothing to do with Judas; I'm asking YOU if you have done what Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler to do, if indeed he was telling him how to be saved by faith and not challenging him to continue to try to be saved by his works (which he can't do). So...when's the garage sale?  





Interesting not one of those verses say "faith alone", or "only faith" is required.

Adding words again to make scriptures fit your doctrine.

I agree faith is required, but as  Christ teaches, Obeying his commandments is important also.


Maybe you need to reread John 6.   He was talking to the disciples when he said:"some of you that believe not",  not the apostles.  He turns and addresses the apostles a few verses later.


So,
Can a person be saved that simply says a few words, with no real intent, and continues sinning?


It is a simple yes or no answer.   are you not sure enough in your doctrine to provide a yes or no answer?
There is no fine print in these verses, they say things like "free gift" "grace" "not of works" "not of yourselves" and explain that one is justified before God by faith, but not by works of the law or works period, and can be justified even without any works. If that isn't faith alone I don't know what is - but the fact is that when it talks about salvation it only mentions faith...and nothing else, hence faith alone.

Salvation isn't via magical spell, God simply asks for our trust, i.e. faith, in the FINISHED work of Christ, as opposed to ourselves. BTW we have an example in Luke 7 of someone who was saved without ANY words.

As for John 6, You need to pay attention to what is being said instead of what you want it to say. It specifically mentions that the one who did not believe would betray Him, that would be Judas.

Is it so hard to place all your trust in Christ? As if He's got his fingers crossed behind His back?  



That is because the works DON'T get you salavation.  It does not mean the Lord does not expect you to obey his commandments.  No matter how many good works you do,  it is still the faith in Christ that saves you.  I guess you could say faith alone of you want.  

Sins that are unrepented for though, will condemn you.

Take the blinders off for a minute.


And you still seem too unsure of your own doctrine to answer a yes/no question.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 11:46:24 PM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 11:46:33 PM EDT
[#50]
See above.
Page / 8
Next Page Arrow Left
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top