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Link Posted: 8/10/2015 11:30:56 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:
Wow.  Thank you all for taking the time to respond.  My unbelief often feels like a disease that flares up and is never truly cured, but I've never felt like that meant that my unbelief was my true core faith.  Sometimes, just being honest with my feelings openly helps me re-frame my perspective, and this thread has surely done that.

Over the weekend, I was sharing some thoughts with my wife and it really does seem like I'm reaping the fruits of having a very small view of God.  The Church is well meaning, but by giving flimsy explanations and trite responses to real, difficult, and painful questions, they make God very small.  It's as if He really isn't big enough to answer life's deepest pains and questions.  

I've been trying to open my mind up to a MUCH bigger view of the God of the universe and to the evidence surrounding Christ, and it helps alot.

One other thing that has helped is to confess that I am secretly angry with God that I am getting older and many of life's possibilities have passed me by.  I feel trapped in my life, and wonder why God hasn't given me more of the things that other people have.  Nobody has to tell me how wrong that is, but I need to admit it and ask for forgiveness.  It's pretty easy to question his existence when he is not doing what you think he should for you.
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OP He has you where you are supposed to be right don't fight it.
Open your heart and your mind and live every moment trying to honor Him.
He may have you right here right now to get someone else's attention. I know I have some of the same struggles and reading your
post helped me knowing I'm not alone in these thoughts.
Link Posted: 8/11/2015 12:18:59 AM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
Wow.  Thank you all for taking the time to respond.  My unbelief often feels like a disease that flares up and is never truly cured, but I've never felt like that meant that my unbelief was my true core faith.  Sometimes, just being honest with my feelings openly helps me re-frame my perspective, and this thread has surely done that.

Over the weekend, I was sharing some thoughts with my wife and it really does seem like I'm reaping the fruits of having a very small view of God.  The Church is well meaning, but by giving flimsy explanations and trite responses to real, difficult, and painful questions, they make God very small.  It's as if He really isn't big enough to answer life's deepest pains and questions.  

I've been trying to open my mind up to a MUCH bigger view of the God of the universe and to the evidence surrounding Christ, and it helps alot.

One other thing that has helped is to confess that I am secretly angry with God that I am getting older and many of life's possibilities have passed me by.  I feel trapped in my life, and wonder why God hasn't given me more of the things that other people have.  Nobody has to tell me how wrong that is, but I need to admit it and ask for forgiveness.  It's pretty easy to question his existence when he is not doing what you think he should for you.
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One thing to think about... what is it you are asking God for that he does not seem to give?  In recent years the two greatest gifts he's given me is a random and improbable chance to be put under, spend two days in the hospital, and grumble through weeks of recovery to donate marrow to save a boy I don't even know and have never met, and, to be that lifeline and crutch to a man lost his wife and home and is sleeping in the woods and streams, and finally to bring him back amongst other people.

He is constantly moving things about, moving those who listen for him and wait for his bidding to act on his behalf.  For me it started small and doubtfully but today is such a daily aspect of life I have to shake my head when my colleagues tsk at belief in God and say they couldn't "lie to themselves" and believe in God... I would be lying to myself if I didn't believe, trust, and act as he directs.

I'll be happy to answer any question you might have about science vs. God should they ever come up for you, and how I carry both with me.  Just send me an IM.

Just remember Jesus is your king.  He rescued you and paid a great price for you that you may be free of eternal death.  He is not an idle king however, and he has work for each of us each day.  Are you looking for the work he would do around you, and putting your hand to it as he would do?  Are you living that part of the life he gives, or is much of it passing you by?  

I am what I am because I wish to be faithful to my king and do for others what he himself would do were he now present.  He will return, but for now I am here to tend his holdings as my gifts provide.  He has added to me things I have not deserved, he may take them away and I will love him just the same.  

I pray he makes his presence felt, and I pray you find that specific way he is calling to you.  The way he calls me is distinct from the way he calls to others.  May you find his call and know him as personally as I do.

God Bless.
Link Posted: 8/14/2015 6:50:34 PM EDT
[#3]
You're going to get a lot of Christian based reasoning and verses from the Bible here.  There were too many things in the Bible that I couldn't accept as the truth.  I do believe the verse,"Seek and you shall find."  I've found my own faith and my own personal relationship with my creator.  I wish you well on your journey.
Link Posted: 8/15/2015 9:32:15 PM EDT
[#4]
Good stuff from Colin Smith.

Enjoying Christ

Link Posted: 8/15/2015 9:36:59 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
Know the feeling.

It is hard to give up on the things that were comforting and made you feel good for a long, long time.  I know the disappointment of finding only unsatisfying answers and explanations for things within your faith. I know the feeling of wanting to believe.

That said, you have to realize that wanting something to be true, and it actually being true are two different things, and you need to be intellectually honest with yourself when you go out looking for "truth" or else you'll end right back where you are when your shotty justifications only placate you temporarily (yep, ask me how I know).

Millions of people have gone through the processes you are describing, and all the fears and doubts you are having are completely normal.

About the best thing you can do is try to find online other people who've lost their religion and see how they respond to similar doubts and questions that you have in your mind. Why do this? Well, its to ensure you explore both sides of the fence. If you pretend like losing your religion isn't an option, and ignore it, you'll keep getting blindsided by doubt.  Better to hear the non-believer side and decide that it is not very compelling than to pretend it doesn't exist.

And no, I'm not talking about people who spend their time attacking religion, I'm talking about people who answer questions that they themselves had as a deconverting believer.  They'll at least give you their perspective.

Also, don't let anyone tell you that if you are doubting now you never were truly a believer.  Those people don't have a clue.

In the end, be honest with yourself, and make sure whatever you end up believing, that it is supported with solid reasoning.  If not, you'll end up back at this same point in 10 years saying "wow, how did I ever think that was a good idea?"  
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Jesus (John 14)
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
Link Posted: 8/18/2015 4:18:49 PM EDT
[#6]
For me it was finding out that no matter how hard I try to be a "good christian", it isn't working, I had to get to that point where it is clear that it is futile, that you have nothing to offer God on your own, and that as a vile sinner, unless God does something supernatural, you can never be saved and are certainly headed to hell. Took me 3 days of crying out to God for him to answer, but once he does, there is no question. It is terrifying seeing preachers hand out assurance of salvation when people are having trouble with their faith. Proper advice would be cry out to GOD and don't stop until he answers.
Link Posted: 8/18/2015 6:11:01 PM EDT
[#7]


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Quoted:



For me it was finding out that no matter how hard I try to be a "good christian", it isn't working, I had to get to that point where it is clear that it is futile, that you have nothing to offer God on your own, and that as a vile sinner, unless God does something supernatural, you can never be saved and are certainly headed to hell. Took me 3 days of crying out to God for him to answer, but once he does, there is no question. It is terrifying seeing preachers hand out assurance of salvation when people are having trouble with their faith. Proper advice would be cry out to GOD and don't stop until he answers.
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Yeah the teacher of the soteriology (study of salvation) class I'm taking says something similar. Too many preachers are afraid to talk repentance, and too many trying to make converts rather than disciples. Too many evangelicals don't know the  what sola fide is all about (myself included).


 
Link Posted: 8/20/2015 10:14:25 AM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
For me it was finding out that no matter how hard I try to be a "good christian", it isn't working, I had to get to that point where it is clear that it is futile, that you have nothing to offer God on your own, and that as a vile sinner, unless God does something supernatural, you can never be saved and are certainly headed to hell. Took me 3 days of crying out to God for him to answer, but once he does, there is no question. It is terrifying seeing preachers hand out assurance of salvation when people are having trouble with their faith. Proper advice would be cry out to GOD and don't stop until he answers.
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This is definitely part of my journey.  I default to trying to earn it or feeling like I don't deserve it.  To be totally FREE in Christ is the most beautiful thought to me, and yet I struggle to grasp it largely because so much of what I've heard preached my whole life (by men with largely good intentions) is focused on our behaviors and not on our freedom.  The church is afraid that if we feel free, we won't behave...hell, that's what I'm afraid of too...that if I'm free, I'll end up doing things that keep me out of heaven.  See my point?  

And yet, I feel most free, and most alive, and most joyful, when I'm just living life and trusting the results to God instead of trying to manipulate situations for whatever outcome I think is best.  

Lastly, I want to say that I have a VERY strong sense that God is quite real and loving and just, I do struggle with the historocity of Jesus and the accuracy of the Bible.  Not saying I don't believe, just really struggling.  The one guy that has helped me most is Dr. Gary Habermas who defines doubt not as a lack of faith but as a lack of CERTAINTY...perfectly put.

Still crying out...
Link Posted: 8/20/2015 10:45:53 AM EDT
[#9]
Disclaimer: I am Catholic.

Sabot42, have your explored Catholicism?  You may find it is what you are looking for.  Your questions and difficulties are not bad, they are a natural part of the human intellect.  You seem to have a good perspective on seeking the truth, I would nudge you to examine the Catholic Church with that same level of scrutiny.

Like Science?  We do too: http://www.casinapioiv.va/content/accademia/en.html

A great (and entertaining) source is Catholic Answers.  They have a show, Catholic Answers Live, which is entertaining and informative.  Some of my favorites are when they only allow non-Catholic callers (podcast link).

I'm glad to talk over PMs if you are interested or have any other questions.
Link Posted: 8/25/2015 9:52:25 AM EDT
[#10]
No, you arent.............I have dealt with those issues alot recently. My wife and I lost a baby 5 years ago, and ever since it seems as though I became stuck in the mire...............it's a hard row to hoe, I can assure you. I know I am not where I need to be, and earnestly ask Him for help everyday...........but I do know He will hear you

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Wow...I thought I was the only one that felt that way.
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Link Posted: 8/25/2015 2:43:38 PM EDT
[#11]

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Quoted:


For me it was finding out that no matter how hard I try to be a "good christian", it isn't working, I had to get to that point where it is clear that it is futile, that you have nothing to offer God on your own, and that as a vile sinner, unless God does something supernatural, you can never be saved and are certainly headed to hell. Took me 3 days of crying out to God for him to answer, but once he does, there is no question. It is terrifying seeing preachers hand out assurance of salvation when people are having trouble with their faith. Proper advice would be cry out to GOD and don't stop until he answers.
View Quote
I disagree. We have plenty of offer to God. But what we offer does not 'win' salvation. We are truly all sinners, but being a sinner is a flaw in human character manifested in the poor exercise of free will. I do not believe in the 'total depravity of man' because we cannot be created in the image and likelness of God and not contain at least some 'good.'



 
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 7:45:29 AM EDT
[#12]
This is just my experience OP.

Similar background, raised in the church, grew up, fell away, redirected back a while ago.  I'm a firm believer that unless people experience or encounter God in some way that makes a mark in their life they will fall away as one can only go to a building so often singing hymns, listening, socializing, etc. before their heart wanders as the core of the individual doesn't experience what the bible says they will or they believe they should.

Problem is most times I find people are waiting on God where in a twist, God is waiting on us.  You're always as close as you want to be, is my motto.  In college I got more desperate and instead of just reading, I would meditate on the word and many times just spend a few hours alone listening to worship music pursuing his presence.  Soon I experienced his presence in what I can only explain as a lightning fire sensation and would stay with me from that day on every time the holy spirit's presence manifested in me when pursuing him, or when it was pursuing me.  I would receive dreams where it was evident he was speaking to me through them, even had one that replayed a scene that occurred through the day earlier showing me the person I talked to was an angel.

Eventually that in itself wasn't enough.  I fasted on two separate occasions during two years for over 30 days on just water, broth, coffee and tea; no food.  I experienced visions and short visitations over that time.  Most would pass that off as malnutrition but I wasn't working out or doing any physical labor of the sort during this time.  My job is mostly occupied in a cubicle in front of a computer; I would meditate during my time at lunch, come home, pray, meditate, read and then sleep.  I only encountered and experienced such during alone time by sitting down and meditating on Christ.  Joy, peace, love, all of that was experienced in ways I cannot explain.  Struggles were cast aside and stayed away for virtually the rest of the year as his peace stayed on me.  

I've fasted before in my youth, but my heart wasn't in the right place for fasting.  That time, it was an act of desperation, wanting to be closer to him at whatever the cost.  I didn't have weight loss, or food concern in my mind and was focused on him 100% which was key.  I didn't fast for the sake of fasting and just go about my day; I pursued him tirelessly, daily.  Many people make it a yearly routine.  Personally, I believe your heart has to be in the right place as it's about relationship with him, not routine.

I have since then yet to do so again, which was roughly 4 years ago but it changed me permanently from that day on.  Aside from that, I'm a firm believer as in the days of old, God speaks to us differently in many ways.  Some times it's through other people regardless of their beliefs, age, gender, etc.  "My sheep hear my voice" sticks with me.  Doesn't mean he speaks audibly although many claim to have heard him in such.  To me it means he speaks to us in a way that we recognize his voice in everything when he does so, so long you're alert, listening.  For me it's through other people; many times through dreams which are mostly symbolic in nature, and circumstances.

Where I'm going with this is if I never pursued God those years ago I would had fallen back aside again.  Even if my actions today are not as much as back then, my heart, soul and thoughts are daily on him, listening, looking, learning.   We should be like a sponge, allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us daily, humbling us, growing and slowly, very slowly it seems, learning from our foolishness.  

Those experiences during that time which to me seemed like supernatural encounters are my anchors in this life where no man will sway me only because I've experienced them when pursuing the father in hunger.  When I struggle through sin and life in general, I can look back and remember those times with things I've seen, experienced and continue to do so knowing it was real.  Those days of fasting and after were the best times spiritually of my life being at peace.

It comes down to how you approach him in your heart's intent.  Question is, how hungry are you and what are you going to do about it?  How far will you go?  Are you willing to give up?  These are the things you need to ask yourself.

I am a firm believer in very few make it very far experiencing what many like to claim only existed back in the bible days with the supernatural experiences only because very few are willing to pay the cost.
Link Posted: 8/28/2015 3:00:58 PM EDT
[#13]
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From what I know of Craig, his arguments only hold up with people who haven't examined them very well.

Can't say anything about Wallace. Never heard of him.

Point being, OP, whenever anyone gives you a source, check into it. Then try to find well reasoned opposition (no, not the "this person is stupid" opposition), and decide for yourself which seems more reasonable.
 
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Quoted:
Good theological and intellectual arguments hold up well no matter the audience.

I recommend William Lane Craig and J Warner Wallace. Both have excellent books and podcasts.
From what I know of Craig, his arguments only hold up with people who haven't examined them very well.

Can't say anything about Wallace. Never heard of him.

Point being, OP, whenever anyone gives you a source, check into it. Then try to find well reasoned opposition (no, not the "this person is stupid" opposition), and decide for yourself which seems more reasonable.
 


That part in bold is actually, good advice.


ETA:

The Bereans, (inhabitants of the city of Berea), heard the Gospel preached by the Apostles.

But afterwards, they went and checked their Old Testament Scriptures (sources that they considered trustworthy), to make sure that what they were being told was actually true.

These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
Acts 17:11
Link Posted: 8/28/2015 3:04:03 PM EDT
[#14]
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Yes.

I'm not biased in that I have a conclusion I'm trying to prove, rather, I've already heard the arguments long ago, and have thus, already determined based on a fair examination of the facts on which explanation I find more reasonable.
 
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Quoted:

I want the OP to make up his mind by a fair examination of the facts.

If the OP was anything like me during my deconversion, he won't be satisfied by simply reading a one sided apologetic that claims to answer all the questions. If he's curious, and intellectually honest, he'll also want to hear the rebuttal to it, and then decide for himself what makes sense and what doesn't.

I don't care what he ultimately is swayed by. I just want to make sure he doesn't fall into the trap of only looking at what he wants to believe at the moment only to end up in the exact same position 5 years from now when he learns the argument he pinned his hat on is also not very logical (which, coincidentally this is what happened to me, as I went from a catholic, to just a bible believing christian, to a deist, to a non-believer.)


He should not fall into the trap of "you must either believe this, or that, and that is terrible and horrible and bad, so your only choice is to believe this".  That's a logical fallacy when trying to convince yourself what is true and what is false.


 
Problem is, have you really made up your mind by a fair examination of the facts? We've been around and around on this in GD, and you are a very biased guy. Hence responding to facts with rhetoric in regards to the higher suicide attempts.


 




Yes.

I'm not biased in that I have a conclusion I'm trying to prove, rather, I've already heard the arguments long ago, and have thus, already determined based on a fair examination of the facts on which explanation I find more reasonable.
 


Interesting.  Me too.

And I believe in Christ.
Link Posted: 8/28/2015 3:11:20 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
Wow.  Thank you all for taking the time to respond.  My unbelief often feels like a disease that flares up and is never truly cured, but I've never felt like that meant that my unbelief was my true core faith.  Sometimes, just being honest with my feelings openly helps me re-frame my perspective, and this thread has surely done that.

Over the weekend, I was sharing some thoughts with my wife and it really does seem like I'm reaping the fruits of having a very small view of God.  The Church is well meaning, but by giving flimsy explanations and trite responses to real, difficult, and painful questions, they make God very small.  It's as if He really isn't big enough to answer life's deepest pains and questions.  

I've been trying to open my mind up to a MUCH bigger view of the God of the universe and to the evidence surrounding Christ, and it helps alot.

One other thing that has helped is to confess that I am secretly angry with God that I am getting older and many of life's possibilities have passed me by.  I feel trapped in my life, and wonder why God hasn't given me more of the things that other people have.  Nobody has to tell me how wrong that is, but I need to admit it and ask for forgiveness.  It's pretty easy to question his existence when he is not doing what you think he should for you.
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OP, this life isn't worth getting disappointed or angry over.

If, you live to be 120 years old; How much is that, measured against Eternity.  Infinity divided by 120 years would equal virtually zero, nothing.
God is preparing you for eternity.


In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
John 14:2-3
Link Posted: 8/28/2015 6:10:03 PM EDT
[#16]
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I feel trapped in my life, and wonder why God hasn't given me more of the things that other people have.  
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I feel trapped in my life, and wonder why God hasn't given me more of the things that other people have.  



I am the true vine,* and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes* so that it bears more fruit.


Heard an interesting sermon on the above (John 15:2) a few weeks back.  Point being that God will take away things in your life that keep you from Him - pruning.  Sermon went on to talk about how pruning feels to the vine.  Someone is cutting part of it away - it sucks, but it's necessary to bear more fruit.  Pretty much the opposite of the prosperity gospel, but really eye opening.
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