Omniscient means all knowing...omnipotent means all powerful.  The omni words used to get me confused also

Its hard to beleive that you are using Aquinas to argue your point. And lets be clear; your point is that God is the cause of evil. Otherwise, we all agree.

Your quote is way out of context, as were your quotes from Romans. Did you ever read the first two chapters of Romans like I suggested? Or even consider the section of C.S Lewis's book that I posted? Have you considered the the Westminster confession sections you have been faced with (and your denomination likely upholds)?

Below is what Aquinas says about this issue; whether or not God is the cause or source of evil.

"I answer that, As appears from what was said (1), the evil which consists in the defect of action is always caused by the defect of the agent. But in God there is no defect, but the highest perfection, as was shown above (Question 4, Article 1). Hence, the evil which consists in defect of action, or which is caused by defect of the agent, is not reduced to God as to its cause."

You are not talking about the God of the Bible if you believe that he is "sovereign" (in the sense that he is actively taking control of every little thing) because there is no way to absolve him of that blight.

The question of why God allows evil is another question entirely, and its one that I think you have been confusing with the existence question this whole time.

Thank you.  I very well may be confusing the whole thing here.

Let me rewind and state clearly.

God did not invent evil.
Because God has the power to eliminate all evil and chooses not to He is the reason evil is permitted to exist.  Only He has that on/ off switch.
God does not commit evil.  That is impossible.
God allows evil to exist and uses it for His Glory whether we see it or not.

I have purposely not used the word responsible here.

Good thread. It likely won't convert any from one side to the other, but it will guide some that are still trying to feel their way through their beliefs.

I only started reading the Bible about five years ago. I've attended church all my life and before I picked up the Bible, I thought that I had a well rounded theology in place. I couldn't have been more wrong about that.

Reading the Bible caused my whole theological world to crumble apart. I was shocked to read verses that had never been taught on, nor addressed in any of the churches that I had ever attended. I never knew how much control of everything, everywhere, throughout all of time, God had always had.

* Not a sparrow falls from the sky apart from His will
* Every footstep is ordered by the Lord
* Belief is a gift from Him
* Repentance is a gift from Him
* When Saul commits suicide, it later says that it was the Lord who put him to death
* The Book of Life was written and complete before the foundation of the world
* He creates some vessels only for wrath, prepared beforehand for destruction
* He saved us and called us by His own grace before the ages began
* Those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified

And on, and on, and on, and on it goes. I see his exhaustive control of humanity and the universe jump off of every page now. Nothing escapes His able hand.

I'm not here to debate anyone or to sway any reader, I'm only giving my testimony. And I can only conclude that my own beliefs are flawed and incomplete, that I don't have it all figured out, nor interpreted correctly. I know I'm deceived somewhere, somehow. But I see the total sovereignty of God in everything now and nothing has a chance of compelling me to think otherwise.

Anyway...

Here's my analogy, or whatever it might be...

I've never smoked crack cocaine. It never really crossed my path in a way to lure me into a life-destroying addiction. Now, I'll ask myself, "why me?", what kept me from going down that path? My answer is, God. God kept me from ending up in the gutter from crack cocaine. He decided before I was ever made, that crack cocaine would not take me. It was His plan, or more correctly, crack cocaine was NOT in His plan for me. I give Him the credit. I say that He is responsible for keeping me away from that.

I will not take the glory for not smoking crack cocaine. To Him be all the glory. And therefore, I don't have 'free will'. My steps were ordered, every last one of them, by the Lord.

TULIP is what I was commenting on above. It's not exactly accurate.


 


ETA: God DID NOT create people to go to hell. Many of the scriptures used to support this, and other hyper-Calvinist  beliefs are taken out of context and co-text. The "elect" is from the Greek, "eklektos", which is always plural, it means the church! How would you reconcile the "elect" from the Calvinist view with a verse such as John 3:16 or 1 Timothy 2:3-6? They add meaning to the term that, if it was indeed there, would mean the bible contradicts itself, and is therefore uninspired. A rational reader would take another look at the text, context and co-text of those verse and come to the conclusion that it doesn't mean what they say it does.






 

This is well, and simply, said.
We like to think of "good" and "bad" as a fork in the road oftentimes. A choice; the path to the left or the path to the right.

However, righteous and evilness, theologically, are more akin to that of the nature of light {see: John 1}. We are either in the light or lack thereof. Evil is the lack of righteousness in God. To be evil, or do evil works, is to disobey God. We are given the (to whatever extent we can understand it -- Calvinists and Arminians differ, but I don't believe are mutually exclusive) choice of following or disobeying God's laws. All works are done for the ultimate glory of God. Our understanding is so small that we struggle to fully understand, which is why we are given simple instruction and grace through faith.

But are those that do those evil deeds predestined to do them?


It seems to me that this V says yes.


"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass".

Everything is predestined, but I believe the human mind has difficulty fully understanding this, and for good reason.

There are people who are predestined to be outside of the light, yes. Some in the Bible were even mentioned as being blinded to the light.

Does this mean we are puppets being manipulated? No.
Does this mean God is in control of the way things will play out, whether He is active or passive in specific instances? I believe, yes.

This has been a fascinating read. It has been interesting to view these concepts through the lens of my own faith. Here is what I believe:

1. God is our Heavenly Father.
2. He commanded us to be like Him because He knew we would be happy if we were.
3. He is God because given the choice between good and evil He chooses good...always.
4. Choice between good and evil is therefor central to our efforts to become like Him.
5. There is no choice possible between good and evil unless both good and evil exist.
6. If there is no choice possible, then we cannot become like Him, and cannot then be happy.
7. Evil is doing anything that is not God's will.
8. God gave us His will (commandments) starting with Adam and Eve who were innocent, and incapable in that state of becoming like God.
9. He gave Adam and Eve competing commandments: Multiply and Replenish the Earth, and do not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Which would give them the knowledge to procreate.
10. This compelled them to make a choice. They chose and fell.
11. Because they fell God provided a Savior to pay the price for their sins.
12. Because He did this, He is both just(price must be paid), and merciful (provided the means to pay it)

Did He know that some would choose evil? Of course. He knew we all would. All of us are in a debt that we can never repay. So who can be saved? Those who place their faith on the One who paid the price for our sins. Our advocate, the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are no competing commandments, only competing interpretations.
Procreation is a natural thing.

X2.
All living organisms exist to continue their species. We just have intelligent design to separate us from the beasts.