By their fruits you shall know them.

+1 paris-dakar

Amen!

Agree.  That's the rule, though there may be exceptions...

If you read this scripture in context of Matthew 7:15-20 which starts this off, Jesus is talking about false prophets.  Born again Christians are not perfect just forgiven.  No matter what our past which the world judges us by, God doesn't if we have accepted His Son.  We are forgiven.  Sometimes born again Christians don't escape man's justice or the consequences of their actions which outwardly might not be seen as good fruits because you start where you are and go forward no matter where that starting point is with our walk with the Lord.   As Christians, we have to be careful not to start judging someone's fruits because we are not to judge anyone.  Someone who calls himself a prophet is a different story though because they are spiritual leaders.

No, it's not. Also, I see in your post a pattern that I've seen repeated countless times. You have chosen to rely on a "what if" question and have made absolutely no mention of what God actually teaches in His inspired word, the Bible.

Read Hebrews 11 and show me where it says of any of the patriarchs, "By faith So-and-So did no works, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Next, read James 2, come back here, and post what the scripture there says about "faith only".

Out of curiosity, have you ever heard James 2 preached? In teaching a number of people who grew up being taught the doctrine you're defending here, I have found that everybody--and I mean that very literally--that I taught about passages like Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3-11, James 2, 1 Peter 3:21, etc. had never been taught those verses. They had never, ever heard them in years of teaching at their churches. They had no idea that they even existed in the Bible. It's very interesting and disturbing to me that people who claim to be shepherds simply omit a pretty sizable amount of scripture so that their flock will never question the doctrines they teach.

Agreed. There is only one way. Ephesians 4 tells us that there is only one faith, and only one baptism.

You're a pastor, so do you ever preach James 2? How can you tell people that we are saved by "faith only" when the apostle James wrote "not by faith only" in James 2:24?

How do you say from the pulpit "You do not need to be baptized to be saved" when Jesus Himself said EXACTLY the opposite in Mark 16:16?

How can you teach that "baptism does not save us" when the apostle Peter wrote EXACTLY the opposite in 1 Peter 3:21?

I've heard all kinds of arguments against specific scriptures like these and, without fail, they all end up being variants on one of three things:




When I chose to be baptized, I did so for several reasons:



I had absolutely NO understanding that my baptism was "an outward sign of an inward change" or anything remotely related to that.

You're a pastor, so tell me this: would my baptism count if I wanted to join your church? If so, why? If not, why?

James chapter 2. You need to study it more. It's speaking of intellectual agreement of facts. Not true faith in Jesus. Regarding baptism being necessary for salvation.
Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Faith in Christ without baptism was enough for him. Jesus didn't tell him sorry it's too late you missed your chance to be baptized and be justified through works.

1Peter and Mark 16 speak of baptism of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is merely symbolic.

1 Peter 3:21 New International Version (NIV)
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Mark 16:15-16
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Notice Jesus doesn't repeat baptism - He only repeats 'believe' because without one, the other doesn't happen. See the parallel in Ephesians?

Ephesians 1:13-14
In whom [speaking of Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So I guess when Christ said that unless a man is born again of WATER and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God, that He was wrong?

Hint: Christ is not limited by the Sacraments. He can save a ham sandwich if He so chooses...

The classic thief-on-the-cross argument, which completely fails to recognize that Jesus had all authority to forgive sins. That worked out nicely for the thief on the cross, but we don't have the luxury of the Word incarnate dwelling among us these days. Plus, Christ had not yet died for anyone's sins. The thief could not have been baptized into Christ's death as Christ was, at that point, still alive.

What about the questions I asked?

Sigh. Same arguments I hear every time.

Every.

Single.

Time.

Why did Jesus need to repeat baptism? If you don't believe, there's not much point in anything else. If you think it's all cool to say "Oh, yeah! Jesus is my Lord!" but then teach that we don't have to do what He said, well, OK. How can you say that the Ephesians passage is "parallel"? How do you define "parallel passage"?

I, however, will choose to live in obedience to the One whom I call Lord.

Won't be the last either. Bible doesn't change.

Not sure I understand. Are you talking about living righteously (Titus 2:12) or obedience to get or maintain salvation (Lordship salvation)?

The way I look at obedience is to look at what Jesus said were the two greatest commandments.  The bible is filled with wisdom, knowledge and teachings on how to help us fulfill these two commandments.  We need the Holy Spirit if we are ever to be a victorious a Christian otherwise it doesn't work very well. Obedience out of love and not duty, understanding who we are in Christ (our authority) and the Grace that keeps us from condemnation are all part of this.  Living a holy righteous life can only be done through Jesus by understanding it is less of me and more of the one who created me, flowing through me.  It is freedom and nothing can compare to it on this earth.   "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.  This is the first and great commandment.  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."   Matthew 22:36-40 kjv

It's a daily choice and a daily battle to become less so He can become more. I choose life that is everlasting and rely on the promises in His Word to overcome the circumstances that come my way.  

The way it sounds to me is that you are trusting in your works along with Christ to save. You're putting your trust in your own righteousness and not totally on Christ.  Me on the other hand. I put my faith in Christ alone and the good works I do, living the way I do and following God's law is because I'm already saved and because of my faith in Jesus I have a desire to obey the Father and to do what is right. I don't do the things I do to get to heaven because as the Bible says our righteousness is as filthy rags.

Now I will say if you claim to believe in Christ but live like the devil and have no desire for the things of God. Then you may want to examine your heart to find out if you really believe because if you have a true belief you'll desire to do God's will.

...and therefore, when the Bible says to be baptized, I don't have to be baptized.

OK.

OK, here's an easier question that I actually need help with getting solved:

How do we fix the problem of so many people treating public prayer and/or handing out Bibles and talking about both like nuclear waste or worse than extreme porn?   I want to be able to get more people introduced to Christianity as it really is, not the horror tales and millions of misunderstandings and hundreds of liberal smears, but just like guns there's a horrible barrier of stereotypes and "I know a guy who" stories.

No, the Bible does not change, but the thief-on-the-cross argument is an utter failure to understand 1) the basic order of events presented in the Bible and 2) the authority given to Christ as recorded in the Bible.

Nobody ever addresses that, though. They just point fingers and say, "You're trusting in works" without even understanding what "trusting in works" really is.

And yes, I absolutely believe in obeying the gospel. Here's why:




Here's a good rule of thumb: if you have to rely on human reasoning and philosophy to convince me that the Bible really means B when the text says A, I know that you are simply trying to rationalize a doctrine that disagrees with the Bible.

For example:

* Just because Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" doesn't mean that you have to believe and be baptized to be saved.

* Just because Peter told the audience of the first gospel sermon to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins doesn't mean that baptism has anything to do with the remission of sins.

Etc.

For people with a controlling nature, it's the most uncomfortable thing to accept that they ultimately have no power to save themselves and it is only by the acceptance of grace.

Good question.

The Bible tells us that the world will reject the gospel as well as those who accept the gospel. Scripture also tells us that the way is narrow and few will enter. Most of the seed scattered by the sower does not bear fruit, and even that which does bear fruit bears different amounts.

We cannot "fix" the public's attitude--all we can do is teach what the Bible teaches and leave it up to those who hear to either accept it or reject it. There are so many people out there (and you can see a an almost constant, great example of this on this website) who *think* they know what the Bible says, but in fact have no idea. For example, plenty of people on this site (not necessarily in this forum) buy the argument that the Bible says to stone adulterers, therefore Christians must stone adulterers. That's the depth of biblical ignorance we deal with, and it's not limited to unbelievers.

One-on-one study of the Bible is the best solution to any of this, but understand that it is extraordinarily rare to find someone who claims belief in Christ who is willing to spend an hour studying the Bible. If you're a church goer, compare the number of people in Bible classes to the number of people in worship--in lots of churches, there's a big difference. Very sad, really.

Never mind.

It's the exact opposite of failure. Jesus was the first to die on Golgotha that day. The thief's belief, while still on the cross, baptized him into Christ's death. It is the purest example of by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone.

To suggest that Jesus would "call an audible" at the last minute and break the rules of salvation just might be the definition of someone not "obeying the gospel".

1 Corinthians 1:17

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Gospel and Baptism are separate things.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Acts 10:42-48

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

God doesn't give the holy spirit to people that aren't saved.  These people were already saves and had the holy spirit. Baptism wasn't necessary for their salvation. Lunch break is over. I'll post more later.

Do you deny that Jesus forgave the thief's sins on the spot before either one of them died?

A pattern I notice in this thread and in those like it is folks speaking lots of words, virtually none of which come from scripture, coupled with an unwillingness to have a two-way discussion in which both parties answer the others' questions. I asked you three questions above, none of which you answered. You seem to want me to believe what you say that the Bible says without me comparing your teaching to the Bible.

In this last post, you seem to be telling me that, when I say that Peter, preaching under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, commanded the Jews on the Day of Pentecost to be baptized for the remission of sins, I am not obeying the gospel. Is that correct? When I say that Jesus taught, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved," and teach that we have to believe and be baptized to be saved, are you telling me that I am guilty of not obeying the gospel?

In your interpretation, when Jesus says, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved," who will be saved?

Thank you for at least referring to scripture--I really appreciate that. I've got work to do but will reply when I have time.

Good luck with that, especially in today's liberal-dominated media market where all things remotely Christian are lambasted without mercy.

The Biblesays that by their works, ye shall know them. As such, the best advice I can offer is to live your life in a manner that gets noticed for being charitable, upright, etc. That alone will bring some people to your attention because they will notice you're not like everyone else.

The very last thing we need to be is loud or judgmental. We can explain what we believe without beating them over the heads for it. After all, the story of Christ is a very uplifting one.

By that same argument the Mother of God then would be free from sin before he was even born. Yes?



The only way to get out of that corner is to walk back through the paint.





 

Dang this character limit.

Anyway. Here's another verse to go with what I said about the Gentiles in acts 10:42-48 being saved and having the holy spirit without baptism.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The people in acts 10 had the spirit but were not baptized. If baptism is required to be saved and have the spirit then how did they have the spirit without baptism?

Romans 10:9-13

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Notice no mention of baptism in there in regards to salvation.

Now let's look at it from this perspective.  At my church we have a van ministry that picks up kids and teenagers.  Now for legal reasons if a child is saved we get a permission slip signed by the parent to allow us to baptize the kid or teenager or we do it if the parent is present. With the baptism being required for salvation belief,  if that kid were to die before their parent allowed them to be baptized God would have to tell them sorry your parents wouldn't let you get baptized so it's off to hell you go. I don't believe at all that God would do that to a teenager or child that's put their faith in Christ and who's lives and attitude totally changed after being saved.

Now for works being required. If works are required how do you know if you've obeyed God's law enough and done enough good works to be allowed in Heaven?

Galatians 5:1-5

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

I know that's true over the whole of the Earth's geography, but isn't it supposed to at least be better than average here in the USA?  Or is that just understanding it as it was 20-30 years ago when I was growing up?

Why must we concede that liberals dominate anything, media market or otherwise?  Are people really so stupid as to believe them?

Sorry - thought I was in GD

Sadly, YES.

Christians are a funny bunch, I admit. We sometimes judge others and not look at ourselves. I have done it myself. Is it right? No. Does it make me human,? Yes. Do I try to work on it? Yes. There is no other perfect person who has lived other than Jesus. He alone was the perfect sacrifice for the world, believe it or not. That is your choice. I choose to believe it and try to live my life accordingly, even though I sometimes stumble. That is why Jesus is there, to catch us when we fall. I always here people say, God helps those that help themselves and  that is biblically incorrect. Where is that written? As a Christian, we believe Jesus is God, not another God or in addition to the God the Father. In order to understand it easier, think of it like an egg. There are 3 parts-yolk, white and the shell. When you order eggs at a restaurant, do you say I want yolks and whites? No, you say I would like some eggs. That is like what God represents, 3 in 1.

As a Christian, we want others to know the joy we have and that is why I speak to people about my beliefs, not to condemn anyone. I know there are many people who sit on their high horse, but Jesus says He will know us by our works- as we want to do what He commands, not that we have to in order to be saved.

Christ talks about baptism in many verses, but it is not required for salvation as it is a work if it is done physically. It is meant to show others our  faith or our covenant with Jesus,  following Christ's teachings.  When you accept Him as Lord and Savior, He baptizes you with the Holy Spirit-Mathew 3:11. That is the baptism that saves. Let's take a  look at Nicodemus when he asked Jesus about being born again.  John 3:5 speaks of water and baptism, true, but you have to look at the next verse, (John 3:6), where Jesus explains when He talks about "that which is born of the  flesh is flesh and  that which is born of the  spirit is spirit". What did Paul say to the jailer about being saved-Acts 16:27-34. If baptism was part of salvation, why did Paul not state that. Was he mistaken? I would think not as he was very close to Jesus. Was there a different standard then and now? There could not be, as it would mean God changes His mind and the bible is ever changing, of which it does not.

The  thief on the cross is an excellent example of faith in salvation. We can't change one  standard/way of salvation  to another when it comes to the thief. No where in the bible does it say the thief was treated differently, he believed and was saved. If we add a work, which by a physical movement which water would be, then how does grace save us? If we add a work then what does Ephesians 2:8 and 9 mean? Is there a controversy? For example, what about prisoners in jail who have no access to a water baptism, are they allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven without the water baptism? Let's say they have access, but die prior to getting it, are they not saved because of a work?

Like others have said, only God knows your heart. Do not look at men for a reason to be comforted, look only to God. He is the only example we have.

No!
There has only been ONE that was free from sin.

By His own nature, yes.

Otherwise, no.

Absolutely not! But there seems to be some disagreement as to how that happened.

My 'call an audible' comment was meant to highlight how Jesus never changes and directed at this quote of yours:
What does that part highlighted in green mean exactly? You have been beating the drum of obedience=baptize with water. How could the gospel demand water baptism (according to you), then Jesus make an exception for one guy? Sorry, but a Nixonian "Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal" reply doesn't cut it.


No. I'm saying you're failing to recognize the mechanism (for lack of a better term) of salvation isn't something physical, the focus is always on the spiritual. Grace, forgiveness, belief, trust, etc...

1 Peter 3:21. Water baptism is symbolic of the spiritual. John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Miss that point, and you inadvertently accuse Jesus himself of not obeying the gospel with the thief on the cross. How could Jesus exercise "all authority" and forgive the man's sins? The only way is Mark 1:15 Repent and believe the gospel.

Clearly Jesus is incapable of violating His own word, so we must conclude that we are saved no differently than the thief on the cross.

Luke 23:39-42
Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? “And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

You seem to have casted a pretty broad stroke of the pen on Christians.

Not sure how you got that out of what was posted. Though I did chuckle a bit as I hit the 'Submit' button. All those solas... I'm gonna hear from TWIRE

You plant the seed and let God work. We don't save people, He does. It's not about us.
We live in a great time where even science is on the cusp of revealing Him. The problem is that many don't want to consider God, and will reject Him regardless of evidence, personal, scientific, or otherwise.
Look up the theories on simulated reality (here's one; read the comments too).
 

I have had multiple conversations with protestant fundamentalists in which they are 'saved' and therefore 'free from sin.'



So why would you deny that to the Mother of God? By the grace of God she conceived of the Holy Spirit, her act of obedience was solely base on faith. Faith and grace. Pretty simple formula.



 

She was freed from the law of sin and death, by her faith in the death, burial and resurrection of the Messiah.

I appreciate those who have offered their opinions and positions with kindness and love.  As for all the dissension among the many Christians who have different interpretations of the Bible and  feel the need to correct others with a different view I think I'll continue to stay out of organized religion and continue to pray and meditate daily, and to do my best with respect to being a decent, loving, human being and following the golden rule.

The thing you need to understand about the Bible is that it is written for people of different ages, cultures, socio-economic classes, education, outlooks and so on. We love to debate and argue the subject, but the one fact that cannot be denied is that God came down and made Himself a sacrifice to atone for the sins of man. Everything else is peripheral.



Myself, I don't like going to church; but that doesn't mean I cannot love God or connect with other believers.



I hope you find what you're looking for.