Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am o jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of then that hate me; and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.' Exod 20: 4-6.

This is an honest question because I have seen pictures of Jesus in Catholic and Baptist churches.  What is God referring to when he says do not make an image of anything that is in heaven?   Since Jesus is in Heaven, I'd say he is included.  I'm not buying into the the picture is of the man, not God, because I believe he was truly 100% man and 100% God.  I can't separate these.  There is no...none..zilch ..description of his physical likeness in the Bible.  So we don't know if he was tall, short, heavy, skinny etc.  though I'm pretty sure he wasn't white with a trimmed brown beard and blue eye.  

So...why am I reading wrong here?

OP,

There is some interesting history here. Your reading of that commandment isn't new, and many have struggled over this through the centuries.

My take on it is, when God took human form in Jesus, people on earth could see him. Therefore, to make a picture of Jesus isn't doing anything that God hasn't already shown the world.  Graven images refer to False gods. I'm going through the OT and God commands all kinds of images to be made, and clearly God can't be in opposition to himself.

Here is a good place to start reading on the subject.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm

Honest question. Is Jealousy a sin? Does that mean it's ok for God to be Jealous but not us? I don't get it.
 

You're not reading anything wrong. Our Father's Commandments are everlasting, whether man is obedient to them or chooses not to be.

OP,

OP check your definition of heaven. What is meant here is "the heavens" or the sky/space/etc. It was common for people to have images of stars, the sun, the moon, etc.

So you are saying it is ok to make images of Jesus and God, but we can't make images of the moon and stars and birds..and fish in the sea?  If so when did this change, because one of  the first symbols of Christianity was a fish.

Again..you may very we'll be correct, I just want to hear where you get this.

Here is my interpretation:

This is one of those passages that MUST be read as a group; you can't pull it out of context.

He is breaking the problem down.

You know how certain groups will venerate objects? Like statues of Mary, or little plastic Jesuses?

He appears to be saying, 'don't do that.' Don't doodle a picture or cast a big golden calf or whatever, then worship it.

But I could be wrong....

I believe you're trying to demonstrate an apparent Biblical contradiction, but in the off chance you aren't, here's my interpretation:

The original words were written in one language, and then were translated into others. Because of this, transliterational errors crept in. (Thou shalt not kill MURDER) is a prime example.

In this case, I believe there to be a difference between jealousy and covetous. I think jealousy is righteous, and desire or covetness is sin.

I agree.  I have seen people take an image of Jesus, Mary etc, and use it as an item of worship...not that they intended to it just evolves into that...I can't pray unless I am holding my whatever....I think this is what God is trying to prevent.  Also...99% of pictures of Jesus are a white good looking guy.  How do   Chinese or Africans etc take to being told of the gospel the first time and someone pulls out a picture of surfer dude Jesus and says this is God?  If it were me I'd think they were a little full of themselves.  And it would hurt your cause.

There is a difference between having an image of something and USING/BOWING DOWN TO a graven image. I don't think having a painting or statue of an icthus is a problem, however, if you were to use that as a point of worship, then that is an issue. What did Jesus specifically say when regarding the commandments? "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and treat your neighbor as yourself." I am not fond of churches that have giant crosses or crucifixes posted at the front of the chapel as if that is somehow of spiritual power with which we might connect with God. That is dangerous. The veil to the Holy of Holies was torn when Christ was sacrificed for our sin, so that now our bodies are the Temple of the Lord. Once we have faith in Christ we can commune with God directly. No image or statue is of any benefit.

Don't have false gods.

Also,it depends on how you split the Commandments....

What about these scriptures that say no man can ever see God and live?
God told Moses “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.” Exodus 33:20
and John 1:18 "no man has seen God at any time" and he then goes on to say that Jesus has seen God and is able to describe him and reflect his qualities.

The images you are reading about in the OT that God commands the Israelites to adorn the temple with is completely different. If the Israelites starting worshiping these images or using them as some kind of worship aid, then they would be committing idolatry. Nothing in or on the temple was to be bowed to, prayed through or worshiped. Just like the Ark was used by God to do all kinds of things, but if the Israelites tried to worship it, touch it or even look at it, they were to be put to death.
People want to justify all their idol worship today with the use of statues, symbols (the cross), venerating images..etc by trying to claim that since God commanded the Israelites to carve images into the temple or other things, that it must be ok to turn a painting or symbol today into an idol/worship aid.
Again, the Israelites were in no way to venerate any kind of image or turn anything God commanded them to make into an idol

The "10 commandments" could be accurately described as three statements and seven instructions.  Below is an amplification of the Hebrew for text of the statements (commandments 1-3):

Names / Shemowth / Exodus 20:1-7
1-3
And God conveyed all of these words, providing perspective in our presence, saying: "I am Yahowah, your God, Who relationally brought you out and delivered you from the realm of the crucible of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You will not exist with other gods in proximity of My presence.

4-6
"You shall not prepare or produce for yourself a carved image, or idol, or any visual representation of something which is in the heavens above, or which is on the earth below, or which is in the waters beneath the land. You are not to bow down and worship them or speak for them, and you are not to serve them or minister on their behalf. For indeed, I, Yahowah, your God, am a zealous and jealous God, Who is desirous of exclusivity in our relationship, reckoning the perversity and sin of twisting and distorting, of perverting and manipulating the way, by the fathers upon the children concerning the third and the fourth generations of those who are hostile to Me. But I will prepare, perform, and deliver unmerited and unfailing mercy, unearned favor, and undeserved kindness to thousands who love Me, and who closely observe, carefully examine, revere, and keep My teachings, instructions, and prescriptions for living.

7
"You are not to lift up, support, or advance, forgive or dignify, respect or tolerate, through the Name or reputation of Yahowah, your God, lifeless and worthless deceptions or devastating and destructive falsehoods. For indeed, Yahowah will not forgive or leave unpunished those who deceive, beguile, or delude, using clever trickery to mislead in association with His Name, to promote vain and ineffectual lies which lead to lifelessness and destruction, or devastating deceptions which nullify our existence, leading to emptiness."

Courtesy of:  http://www.blessyahowah.com/a/tsi.html

Jealousy is not always negative. God's jealousy is in the sense of, "solicitous or vigilant in maintaining or guarding something". That's a positive type of jealousy; He doesn't want us to be fooled by fake gods and led away from the good he has for us.  



 

There is a biblical progression that God allows us to "see". At the time of Moses... God appeared as a burning bush. With the coming of Christ/GOD... we as humanity, were allowed to see  the face of  God in a way that would not cause us to die!In fact the face of God as Christ allows us eternal life. Christ is the fulfillment of the Old testament.



A craven image is anything that we would worship above God. I would say the television and football alcohol, sexual addiction , anything that we would put first and foremost above God is the craven image. You worship that above all else.



Christ gave us this:

1. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with
   thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength;




2. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

 

+1



Jealously like temptation can be a good thing. You can be tempted to do good things or bad things. If you look at another who has overcome a sin and you say to yourself... I am jealous of that success... and then seek to improve yourself as a result... that is a good thing.



God is a jealous God. He created us he wants us to love Him.  There should be nothng between us and Him.

His jealousy is divine. Ours can be destructive if we chose to do so.



 

God also had them destroy the snake on a pole when they began to worship it.

Because people forgot that it was the gift of healing and named it a god Nehushtan.



They carried around the symbols of faith in the Ark of The Covenant.

The tablets that were scribed by God.

The first Torah written by Moses.

A jar of manna.



Symbols so sacred that they were kept behind a veil.



They were gifts from God.





 

I'm just saying that even something God gave them, they misused and worshiped instead of him.  Shows how easily things can go wrong.

Also in the ark, they carried golden hemroids.  I've always wondered who modeled them..and before someone says I'm being irreverent, please read your bible.  It is true.

I agree.

God created all things good. It's our misuse of them that becomes the issue.

I sometimes wonder what it would have  been if Adam and Eve had not sinned and been expelled.

That's why Moses's burial site had to be at an unknown exact location, so the children of Israel wouldn't be tempted to worship it.

Thanks for the insight gentlemen. My education is coming back to me - its been awhile.

Some random thoughts:

God talks in other places about idols and how people worship deaf and dead lumps of material and worship imagined gods who do not exist.  They are wasting their time worshiping something that can not help them and are distracted from having a relationship with the true God.

Even the ark of the covenant gets abused at one point where the children of Israel roll it out like a magical talisman with power of its own, yet God not having endorsed that particular battle, allows it to be captured and the Israelites routed.  (though were the adversaries took the ark, God sent misfortune on them)

The gist seems to be in not putting our faith in things of this world or the work of our hands or imagination, rather, to keep our faith focused on God.  I would point to paul here and his discussion of eating meat sacrificed to idols.  The meat is just meat and if not a distraction to an individual, is not sin.  If it is a distraction to an individual or is a distraction to others though, it can be a problem.

I would argue that there is a problem when physical objects are being abused like the ark was, that is, as magical talismans that have power of their own that humans merely need to wave around or wear without first and primarily being focused on God and his will.

Just my quick take