Fyeguy,

It's been a nice little conversation, but I have more than proven that:
1. There is nothing solid about any of the several theories on human reproduction. They are all based on guesses, as are all the theories dealing with evolution.
2. According to the definition of "faith", you have faith. Faith in human scientists. Atheists claim to not have faith, but this has proven other wise.
3. You only listen to "subject matter experts" that hold your view of things. There are many other "subject matter experts" that disagree with your "subject matter experts".

True science is good and beneficial. Science that can be tested, that is. Evolution cannot be tested or is there any proof of it.
Evolutionary biochemist Franklin Harold said this:
"Of all the unsolved mysteries remaining in science, the most consequential may be the origin of life...a stubborn problem with no solution in sight. There is, indeed, a large and growing literature of books and articles devoted to this subject, many with theories to propound.... What makes the origin of life so intractable? The object is to discover what transpired in the exceedingly remote past, under circumstances that one can hardly imagine.... It bears repeating that we know very little for certain, and that it is seldom possible to formulate hypotheses that can be falsified by experiment; the opinions of scholars are, therefore, colored by personal beliefs about what should have happened, and even about what is meant by “life” (2001, pp. 235,236,239, emp. added)."

Franklin also said this:
"Life arose here on earth from inanimate matter, by some kind of evolutionary process, about four billion years ago. This is not a statement of demonstrable fact, but an assumption almost universally shared by specialists as well as scientists in general (p. 236)."

The question was with regard to a purely materialistic universe such as ours with no consideration of gods, spirits, etc., and specific to that world view.  In its restated form: how would you explain to an entity who comes from outside human culture (including religions) what you derive purpose and values from, and why you bother with "honor" or "integrity", particularly in light of the very likely long view that the universe itself appears to be a fire burning to ash where no life or consciousness is possible.  

I invite you to reread from that perspective, and it should become obvious why I at the continual re-introduction and criticism of gods and religion. If it helps or pleases you, imagine for the sake of argument the entity is some sort of extraterrestrial entity descended from some sort of cuttlefish like species that developed on another world, which is having difficulty understanding human culture and morality.

I am asking to learn the philisophical underpinnings that support the values mentioned for the purely materialistic, without diversions into disapproval over gods or assertions about arguments that aren't being made.

In what i have already written I have already mentioned some of the arguments such an entity might pose to appeals to local or general norms of your species as the source of your meaning, purpose, or as reasons for your values.

Not that you have to answer this question, but as you've said and shown, it's hard to get a good answer from atheists on this one, and in my experience they tend to get distracted and wander off on "why people don't need gods to be moral" tangents.  I'm asking in the broadest perspective, why be "moral" at all except out of personal tatse or for convenience (vis-a-vis not being acosted by your fellow species members)?

Thanks for keeping it civil.


Using that logic all scientific theories can be diminished to 'best guesses'. Gravitational theory is just a 'best guess' as to how these forces work in the universe. Again, get your scientific terminology from scientists, not clergymen.


Confidence in SME's on the subject does not equal faith that Jesus will save my soul. They are very different things. I have faith in all kinds of things, none of those things are supernatural.


The overwhelming majority of evolutionary biologists accept evolution. You must know better than the people that spend their lives studying the evidence.

Personal taste, convenience, limiting harm to others, along with doing our best to be as far along as possible on the continuum of well-being for conscious creatures. Those are all good starts.

You still have yet to propose your understanding of why we bother (or at least if you did it was lost on me in your needlessly verbose post). In any case I get the impression that you're just going to keep answering my points with non-stop 'why?'s'. If that's the case, please spare us both.

Watch this video. Or read the transcript. Then if you still need more knowledge, you can check out his blog.

At this point, I think we have both stated our positions clearly, we're now starting to just go in circles. It really all comes down to the evidence we have. I don't expect you to understand my evidence because it is through personal experiences. Perhaps one day you will have the evidence that I, and many here in this religion forum, already have. I'm not trying to be condescending here, just stating my view and experience on how these spiritual things work.

Has anyone asked OP which god he's referring to yet? Zeus? Allah? Darth Vader?

Don't bother, it's very likely that you (like me) are too dense to comprehend the evidence presented.

If only we had all the answers like most in this sub-forum...
I had more to say, but I'd likely get empty answers since nobody here can:
1) Prove existense
2) Prove God created the stars, and DNA sequencing, etc as mentioned here
3) Prove he did any of the things that people claim he did.

If some people don't need "proof" and they can't believe without actually knowing, then good for them. Not for me though. I came to observe the answers OP gets, and I suspect that he, like myself, will continue to be driven away from religion because of those "answers"..

Did you really take what I said offensive?  I said I wasn't trying to be condescending. I then explained that MY evidence is through personal experiences, which I don't expect you to understand. I didn't give you any examples of evidence for you to not comprehend. I can't demonstrate my experiences for you to comprehend/understand, therefore I can't and don't expect you to.

Unlike you, I never did any insulting, I just layed out my case as I see it. Remember the bible thumping and getting the definition of theory from a source other than my pastor comments?  But, by all means, play the victim of the mean Christian guy.

These two seem reasonable: "Personal taste, convenience"

Now if said cuttlefish asks "why" to these: "limiting harm to others, along with doing our best to be as far along as possible on the continuum of well-being for conscious creatures.", You're just going to ask him to "spare you"?  Fair enough, but suppose he thinks those things foolish and decides you might be more delicious than you are informative?  Is it not then just a question of might and capability to impose your will to live over his desire to eat you?  Suppose he's adapted to eating the small intelligent hominids of his world as his primary food source.  Are you going to fault him for failing to live up to your morals of "limiting harm" and "well-being for conscious creatures"?

In the end, isn't the purely material world really just personal taste, convenience, and the ability to apply force individually or in groups?   And again have you no statement as to what puropose or value there is to any of it when in the universe we observe we have every confidence that there is no material consciousness that can ultimately survive to judge?  

Personally I found none, until it found me that is.

Stand down ledslngr, I just complimented you not two posts ago for being civil.

I guess I'm going to grow old waiting to hear what that is?

I've already told you about him.  Anyone here who knows him will tell you about him.  As I recall you're not interested to know him so I don't foresee any point reviewing that here.  Take it up with him if you really want to know him.  If you're serious about it, he'll come around.

This thread was all about OP finding some sort of increased meaning and satisfaction in "shrugging off" God.  Having explored that myself and finding nothing of any merit, I wanted to see if someone had something to contribute I didn't already know, but I've seen nothing to refute the claim that the alternative is anything but pointless anthropocentric warm fuzzy feelings of hope and delusions of meaning in the face of a clear picture that a purely material universe with attributes like ours has no ultimate universal values, meaning, or purpose to offer.  

In parting I'll revisit one of the concepts you seemed to have problems with earlier, which is the idea of building a morality on something other than direct fear of God and punishment.  I'd like to recommend you take a read through Locke's 2nd treatise on Government, or Bastiat's "The Law".  Both of them elaborate nicely on viewing life as a gift from God (As opposed to just a rather complex arrangement of matter that entropy uses on it's way to increase), and because it is a gift from something other than one's self, it necessarily creates certain rights and responsibilities.  These ideas are the foundations of classical liberal philosophy and the ideals which were the primary influence to the founding of the United States.  I don't think you'll find that any of those were founded on some overarching fear of eternal punishment, but rather, on a natural and proper reaction to the gift of life that we have had bestowed upon us, and how we ought to react to each other being co-equal creations of the same God granted the same Gift.   I think these works give adequate claim and description to an alternative framework than the one you suggest.

I certainly take no issue with someone saying they have not seen anything that persuades them that there is a God and therefore do not conduct their life as though there is one.  I certainly do not say people can't act nicely toward each other without any God.   Yet I do hold that without some eternal consciousness to place or take meaning from the whole of the universe, all of that is ultimately meaningless given the universe as we understand it.  Dawkins spoke of a "God delusion".  I find a "meaning" delusion possessing most people who cast off faith only to swap for it some new faith in "humanity" or "the universe" or other transitory or vague and insubstantial things.  I would still be convinced of it today if God hadn't directly acted on an in my life.  Once I had experienced him directly however, I realized that everything had to change, and that everything has meaning.  

How truly intelligent can a person be about such things?
I find some of these particular type arguments very interesting and compelling.
However, as the one who is purely sensual or given to exact truths and through examinations according to the methods employed then let the buyer of these things beware!
If you do not know a great deal or everything that there may be available or to be known according to any subject or matter, then absolute and pure logic dictates to go with the winning scenario every time.
And this is not merely a, "Pascal's Wager," type argument being presented here, but a genuine, logical, and a reasonable one.
We all as human beings like to put labels on just about everything!
But imagine in your own holy of holies, what would it be like if you ever really did consider yourself to be a follower of Jesus Christ?
What would I have to change about my life?
What would God expect from me?
What would my friends think and then say about my change?
Could I really do this or not?

Now, you may say or solemnly state that there is no God or any real knowledge of God and this is certainly your prerogative for you to do so.
Nobody here is trying to persuade you otherwise.
We do not have that kind of power physically or mentally to do that.
But, how is it that a person maybe such as yourself can make such assertions without first making all of the real evidence available first.
It is my opinion here, the truth is, is that you have not searched enough to make these claims of yours near enough binding and valid as it seems that the better judgment according to your current theory about life has become somewhat clouded by arrogance and pretty much is now totally amounted to only what other animals see and sensually experience only which coupled with secular science still seems ridiculous and somewhat incomplete by its teachings to me.
The shoe was conceptualized and made for the foot, not the foot for the shoe.
There must be a broader view than man from monkey and primordial soup boiling in an ancient pond of scum for your self reliance in another man's work to be valid enough to prove over a greater being than he or she is.
Yes?
Don't disappoint me now.
You are intelligent enough to do better than this right?
This is about intellect and reason.
There are certain levels of promotion and advancement which pertains to everyone concerning just about anything.
Yes?.

OK, I'll play along. Let's say I decide that despite all evidence to the contrary, there is a god and I want to serve him. Exactly which flavor should I choose? From which one of the 20 or so major religions should I pick? I'm guessing this crowd will point me to one of the ones with Jesus. OK, great, Christianity it is!  But which flavor of christianity? There are many hundreds of choices, many following widely different interpretations of widely different translations of the bible. All stretching the meaning to fit their particular dogma. Not to mention differences in moral teachings.

The way I understand it, most Christian denominations teach that those who follow any other faith are doomed. Even among the many other 'christian' faiths. Quite a pickle. Quite a task to pick the one true one from hundreds, and very very high stakes if I should choose wrongly. Not to mention the nagging doubt I might have that Islam or Hinduism might be the right path.

This very site, full of members with so many things in common (mostly men, interested in firearms, generally conservative views, overwhelmingly christian), you can barely find a single Christian that doesn't think that the other Christians are full of crap. Evidence.

And this is a serious question. Which exact denomination do you believe is the way, the truth, and the light? I would like to know more about your specific belief system.


My goal every single day is to learn more about as many things as I can. Please present evidence and I will gladly look at it.

Disclaimer: If that evidence has anything to do with the way you feel about your deity then it is not evidence.


So if both of us look at the evidence around us, and you decide to believe in a deity and I do not, then the only possible answer is that I am ignorant and arrogant? Remarkable.


I really wish you could keep the insults to a minimum. Your conclusions have  nothing to do with intellect or reasoning.

Oh but they do have reason and intellect behind them.
If it were not so I really doubt that you would still be here asking questions and at least have some desire for dialog along these lines.
Actually, I have been quite respectful to you and I think some of the real issues here between us are more about attitude and mindset circumstances more than anything else that might see here that could possibly be holding either one of us up concerning a genuine and amicable understanding for the both of us..
And I say this in love but, please don't try to play stupid with me about some of the things which you have asked.
Because in these things I also can become a little ticked at you also my friend.
Some of your questions here precede your intentions at playing hard to get.
There is only One, not  20 or 30 guy?

It is true that Christians differ in their beliefs, and a very very very small few say that all the other Christian denominations are doomed except theirs. They are usually the loudest "hey everybody look at me" people, so they are the ones that are heard the most.

In all actuality, Christians differ on trivial doctrines for the most part. A Christian is someone that claims Jesus as Lord and Savior, that he was crucified for our sins, died, and was raised 3 days later. All Christians believe this, or they aren't Christians. Having different views on trivial doctrines does not disqualify someone from salvation and it certainly does not doom anyone.

Am I saying that its okay to believe whatever you want as a Christian and it will be okay, that God will overlook deliberate falsification of His Word?  Not at all.

Lets take the Protestant-Catholic conflict for example. We've had many debates here in the religion forum between the two. In my opinion, both sides bring a good bulk of information regarding their position on a subject but still end up coming to different conclusions. In my opinion this is not a deliberate falsification of His Word because the subject has been researched and debated extensively. Nonetheless, each side believes that they are correct and are not trying to alter the Word for personal gain.

No, I'm pretty sure this is a thread created by an atheist or at least an agnostic.


I'm asking questions that you can't answer, and that makes me stupid?


I'll ask again: Which exact denomination do you believe is the way, the truth, and the light?

Denomination of Jesus Christ, is the way, the truth, and the light. Everything else is just getting together. Problem with someone like yourself is you want video proof. It reminds of that Dave Chappelle skit where he says in order to convict R.Kelly he needs to see a video of him peeing on the girl, along with signatures, his grandma wearing a hat, yada, yada, yada. Somethings you just have to take faith into consideration.

fieguy, IM me and let me know what city or area that you live in so that I can research some of the ministries in your area and I'll get back to you with a short list of some of them that seem to have promise according to what I believe that we're looking for.
I"ll even make some phone calls if necessary.
And of coarse, it is understood by me that you are under no obligation here ok?

Kapeech?

Thanks,

Justin Case

Oh bummer, looks like you got that scripture wrong (Thanks SAE ).

And video would be pretty awesome. I mean, it's ubiquitous, wouldn't that be a great way for god to prove his existence once and for all? It's interesting that his active involvement with the world quickly dwindled with the advent of modern communications technologies.

So let me see if I have this straight: You have insider knowledge as to which exact christian denomination is the ONE that is true, and is superior in doctrine and understanding to all others, yet you can't even post it on a message board? Jesus strongly suggested that you spread the gospel didn't he? And why would we do this over IM? Just think of all the atheists and agnostics that are lurking and waiting for that one kernel of truth. This is a tremendous opportunity for you.

Hopefully your not withholding this great truth out of fear of what your fellow Christians might say. You know, those that follow a denomination that you believe will lead to their everlasting destruction. I'm sure that's not a factor.

Why don't you investigate this matter for yourself?
People are different as some churches will vary.
God certainly didn't put me here to endlessly cater to you.
God put me here for other reasons also.
You seem to me to just be playing some sort of game anyways.
Why don't you go and take a couple of test drives today?
You seem the type.

SAE

I know there aint no heaven and I pray there ain't no hell. I'm an agnostic. I would love it if somebody could prove it to me one way or the other.

because if we didn't the pole would only have yes votes.

Not to be condescending, but who do you pray to?

What proof would be good enough?

Gotcha. It's not for answers, it's to tell us we're wrong. I see.

   If you want to share your views unchallenged then a discussion forum may not be the right place.

I took that as some humor and that is all right?
Well then, now that all of the intros are out of the way, if you were serious about exploring your options so far as at least upgrading your education a little bit more about some spiritual  matters, then we'll see what we can do right?

Go to church as a kid or young adult?
What does the Christian Holy Bible mean to you.
Is there anything in it that you might agree with?
Disagree with?
Ever seen something occur or reoccur in your life that you still cannot fully explain now?
Ever felt like you had someone try to jam ''religion'' down your throat in the past?

Thanks,

SAE

So people go to forums about things that they don't agree with for the sole purpose of challenging the people that do agree with them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GPI40zE0Hw

fieguy,
Alright jump in and let's take a little test drive brother!

That all said, SAE you've passive aggressively let your ass show. Why couldn't you have just said that you don't know whether God exists or that what you believe is fact? Why do you insist on arguing when you could have simply said, "Nobody knows for sure, but this is what I believe and what you believe is okay too"?

Can you honestly do your best to, at least on a discussion forum, tell me that you truly believe that the events in the Bible are true and that the reason you are going to heaven is because Jesus died for your sins and was reanimated from the dead three days later? If you can, then all this stupidity and non-intelligence you speak of towards other is actually reflecting on you.

I surly hope that nobody else takes offense to this. This is not a post bashing anyone's religion. I respect everyone's beliefs and choices regardless of what I think, so long as it doesn't affect me.

Was I referring to you in my former post?
I thought I was posting to someone else?
Oh well.

God exists.

IT ain't anything we can completely understand, but it is there.
Religion is just an old word for Guberment. It made rules and laws to protect it's self.

For me, science has never dis-proved a "god". But it does help us see further into it.

This is a discussion board. Everyone is involved who wants to be involved. I assume your, again, passive aggressive behavior means that you don't want to address me?




So you must also believe that a governing body doesn't need the opinion of the people and that they should be able to appoint themselves unchallenged? Do you honestly not like other people's opinions that much?




Great, but if you don't mind me asking, who bestowed the knowledge unto you in which you know for a fact that God exists. Serious question, and please don't say God did it..

----Ok, I will.

GOD DID IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're doing a great job, keep it up.

Thank You Brother!

Really?  Who said anything about a governing body?  You're way off base here.

Challenging ideas is a large part of any forum. Again, we can debate barrel length, caliber, gas vs. piston all day long, only when it comes to religion to people get the idea that these ideas are protected in some way.

And yes I understand this is the Religion forum, but I hope you understand that this is a thread started with:

It's a topic started by a skeptic, buck up and expect some skepticism.

Exactly. Thank you for proving my point.

I have. Extensively. How do you think I've come to my conclusions? I'm asking for your conclusions, but you won't share.


So god takes no active hand and all of these many hundreds of denominations have it right?


I'm asking questions that you can't/won't answer, all you've done recently is post one liners. Who's playing games?

This sub forum is full of ideas that need challenging, but most of the threads are not the place for me to share my views, and I let them be.

This is what baffles me right here!  Why even spend time on something you don't even care about?  Why challenge ideas that have no impact on you, or that affects you 0%?  You obviously spend a lot of time in this forum from what you just posted. Why?  

He'll exist in a foxhole situation NMFW

therefore yes.  Be good.

I could, but not in the way you have disingenuously put it.
And in this, you show yourself to be just another garden variety atheist with deluded and more obtuse statements as is the usual for some of us here.
Sorry if I'm not being "passive aggressive" enough for you there fella but there it is in all of its glory for ya.
Not much I know, but the best I can do for now.

Disingenuously? How  so? Is that not what happened? Is it not a large part of being a christian, or am I mistaken?

Now you're letting us down "fella". Deluded and obtuse? Please point out such statements and I'll clear anything up for you if that's what you need. How did I show you I'm an athiest?
Instead of trying to provoke a hostile conversation why not answer the questions and or respond to the comments. My religion is thirst for knowledge. This discussion is simply another opportunity for me to understand people's thinking on the subject, but instead you'd rather verbally attack someone in a smart ass way instead of actually sharing all this knowledge you think you have on the topic. If you're not going to provide anymore helpful info, then why are you continuing to post? You like to argue that you have answers, but you don't want to prove it?

Why have you gone from attempting to provide information, to trolling? How does that help us understand your reasoning? How can I level with you if you won't level with me..

Look whose trolling now.