Marks of the Church

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Marks of the Church (Page 1 of 3)

Posted: 9/11/2014 10:19:24 AM EDT

Multiple posts, stay tuned. Cut and paste job but well done.

What
can we know
about Christ's Church from Scripture? Was it a non-hierarchical,
egalitarian, laid-back non-institution whose leaders talked about
success, wealth, and health before stepping back to let a choir
director lead people in song? Or was it quite otherwise?

From
Scripture, we can see that the Church:

is one, unified	Matthew 12:25, 16:18, John 10:16, John 17:20-23, Acts 4:32, Romans 12:5, Romans 16:17, 1 Corinthians 1:10-13, Corinthians 3:3-4, Corinthians 10:17, Corinthians 11:18-19, Corinthians 12:12-27, Corinthians 14:33, 2 Corinthians 12:20, Ephesians 4:3-6, Philippians 1:27, 2:2-3, 1 Timothy 6:3-5, Titus 3:9-10, James 3:16, 2 Peter 2:1
is holy, but not all who belong to it will be saved	Matthew 7:21–23, Ephesians 5:25–27, Revelation 19:7–8
is universal (ie, "katholikos" in Greek, or "Catholic")	Matthew 28:19–20, Revelation 5:9–10
is Apostolic	Matthew 16:18-19, Matthew 9:6-8, John 20:21-23, Acts 5:5, Ephesians 2:19–20
is hierarchical and has bishops (episkopos), priests (presbyteros or "elders"), and deacons (diakonos)	Acts 1:20, Acts 15:2-6, Acts 20:28, Acts 21:18, Philippians 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:1-2, 1 Timothy 5:17, Titus 1:7, Hebrews 11:2, 1 Peter 5:1, 1 Peter 2:25,
is the Pillar and Ground of Truth	1 Timothy 3:15
is the "light of the world", visible, cannot be hid	Matthew 5:14
was founded by Christ through Peter, whom He made the Church's earthly father, and the Gates of Hell cannot prevail against it	Matthew 16:18-19 (see also page on Peter as "The Rock" for evidence of Peter's authority among the Apostles)

Posted: 9/11/2014 10:20:51 AM EDT

[#1]

We
can see that the early Church's priests and bishops:

were sent and commissioned by Jesus	Mark 6:7, John 15:5, John 20:21, Romans 10:15, 2 Corinthians 5:20
were ordained and acted as representatives of Jesus	Mark 3:14, Luke 10:16, John 13:20, Acts 14:23, Acts 16:4, 1 Timothy 2:7, 1 Timothy 4:14, 1 Timothy 5:23, Titus 1:5
had the authority to bind or to loose ("to forbid" and "to permit" with reference to interpretation of the law, and "to condemn" or "to acquit")	Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18, Luke 24:47, John 20:21-23, James 5:15, Acts 5:2-11, 1 Corinthians 5:3-13, 2 Corinthians 2:5-11, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 1 Timothy 1:18-20, Titus 3:10
had the authority to perform Baptisms and offer the Eucharist	Matthew 28:19, Luke 22:19, Acts 2:38-41, Acts 2:42, Acts 2:46, Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 10:16
referred to themselves as "fathers" and thought of themselves as "fathers"	1 Corinthians 4:14-15, 1 Thessalonians 2:11, 1 Timothy 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 John 2:13, Philemon 1:10 (Compare KJV with NIV)
offer pure sacrices and incense	Malachi 1:10-11
annointed the sick	Matthew 10:1, Luke 9:1-2, Luke 9:6, James 5:13-15
performed exorcisms	Matthew 10:1, Mark 3:15, Luke 9:1
extolled celibacy for those called to it (note that in the beginnings of the Church, many of the Apostles, such as Peter, the first Bishop of Rome, were already married before beginning their ministry, but they abstained from marital relations after ordination; the Eastern Catholic Churches permit married priests -- not Bishops -- but in the early Church, they were expected to abstain from marital relations with their wives)	Matthew 19:12, 1 Corinthians 7:7-9, 1 Corinthians 7:20, 1 Corinthians 7:25-38

Posted: 9/11/2014 10:21:31 AM EDT

[#2]

What
can we learn about the early Church from extra-Scriptural sources? To
all who think the early Christians got together to sing "Rock of
Ages", hold hands, have a piece of mere bread once a year "in
memory of Christ," and just generally indulge in a feel-good,
non-hierarchical, totally egalitarian "fellowship" with
each other, here are a few writings to ponder. Do these words of St.
Cyprian of Carthage (baptized ca. A.D. 246) this sound like a
non-hierarchical, get-together-to-fellowship kind of Church?:

You
have written also, that on my account the Church has now a portion of
herself in a state of dispersion, although the whole people of the
Church are collected, and united, and joined to itself in an
undivided concord: they alone have remained without, who even, if
they had been within, would have had to be cast out. Nor does the
Lord, the protector of His people, and their guardian, suffer the
wheat to be snatched from His floor; but the chaff alone can be
separated from the Church, since also the apostle says, "For
what if some of them have departed from the faith? shall their
unbelief make the faith of God of none effect? God forbid; for God is
true, but every man a liar." And the Lord also in the Gospel,
when disciples forsook Him as He spoke, turning to the twelve, said,
"Will ye also go away?" then Peter answered Him, "Lord,
to whom shall we go? Thou hast the word of eternal life; and we
believe, and are sure, that Thou art the Son of the living God."
Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built, teaching and
showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and
arrogant multitude of those who will not hear and obey may depart,
yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church
who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to
its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the
Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the
bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter
themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God's priests,
and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church,
which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed
connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with
one another.

In
the 1st century, St. Ignatius, Peter's appointee to the Antiochian
bishopric, addressed his letter to the Roman Church like this:

...to
the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most
High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church
which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all
things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which
also presides in the place of the report of the Romans, worthy of
God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of
praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed
holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from
the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son
of the Father: to those who are united, both according to the flesh
and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled
inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every
strange taint, I wish abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus
Christ our God.

In
his letter to the Smyraean Church he wrote:

Let
no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let
that be deemed a proper Eucharist [the Catholic word for
"Communion"], which is administered either by the bishop,
or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall
appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as,
wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not
lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a
love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing
to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

In
his letter to the Ephesians:

[Speaking
of Bishops] For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the
house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent
him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop
even as we would upon the Lord Himself. And indeed Onesimus [see
Colossians 4:8-10 and Philemon 1:10] himself greatly commends your
good order in God, that ye all live according to the truth, and that
no sect has any dwelling-place among you. Nor, indeed, do ye hearken
to any one rather than to Jesus Christ speaking in truth.

While
Scripture is evidence enough for the marks of Christ's Church, we can
see in the writings of Ignatius -- written in the first century,
within 67 years of Christ's resurrection, by a close friend
and appointee of the Apostle Peter and friend of Polycarp -- that the
early Church had a very Catholic interpretation of Scripture:

the
Church was Divinely established as a visible society, the salvation
of souls is its end, and those who separate themselves from it cut
themselves off from God (Epistle to the Philadelphians)

the
hierarchy of the Church was instituted by Christ (Epistles to the
Philadelphians and the Ephesians)

the
threefold character of the hierarchy (Epistle to the Magnesians)

the
order of the episcopacy superior by Divine authority to that of the
priesthood (Epistles to the Magnesians, Smyraenians, and the
Trallians)

the
importance of unity of the Church (Epistles to the Trallians,
Philadelphians, and the Magnesians)

emphasis
on the holiness of the Church (Epistles to the Smyraeans, Ephesians,
Magnesians, Trallians, and Romans)

the
catholicity of the Church (Letter to the Smyraeans)

the
infallibility of the Church (Epistles to the Philadelphians and the
Ephesians)

the
doctrine of the Eucharist -- i.e., belief in Transsubstantiation or
the Real Presence of Christ in Communion (Epistle to the Smyraeans)

the
Incarnation (Epistle to the Ephesians)

the
supernatural virtue of virgnity (Epistle to Polycarp)

the
religious character of matrimony (Epistle to Polycarp)

the
value of united prayer (Epistle to the Ephesians)

the
primacy of the Chair of Peter (Epistle to the Romans, introduction)

a
dencouncing of the (later Protestant) doctrine of private judgement
in matters of religion (Epistle to the Philadelphians)¹

St.
Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, born between A.D. 115 and 125 (or between
130 and 142, the date is unclear though it is certain that he met
Bishop Polycarp (d. 155) at Smyrna) wrote in his Adversus
Haereses
Book III Ch. IV about sorting Truth from heresy:

Since
therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth
among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the
apostles, like a rich man depositing his money in a bank, lodged in
her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that
every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For
she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On
this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the
thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay
hold of the tradition of the truth.

Which
Church was he talking about? The Church built by Christ on the rock
of Peter:

Since,
however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to
reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion
all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing,
by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in
unauthorized meetings; we do this, I say, by indicating that
tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very
ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome
by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also by
pointing out the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time
by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of
necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account
of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere,
inasmuch as the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously
by those faithful men who exist everywhere" (ibid.,
Book 3, Ch 2, 2).

I
challenge Protestants to plunge themselves into early Church history!
Read the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Cyril
of Jerusalem, Irenaeus, Polycarp, St. Augustine, etc... They are rich
with Catholic doctrine -- and the earliest evidence we have for what
the Church was like in its earliest days!

Posted: 9/11/2014 10:23:34 AM EDT

[#3]

Relevant Scripture

Matthew
7:21-23

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my
Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord,
Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast
out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will
I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity.

Matthew 9:8

But when the multitudes saw
it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power
unto men.

Matthew 12:25

And Jesus knew their
thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is
brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself
shall not stand:

Matthew 16:18

And I say also unto
thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew
18:17

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church;
and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you
would a pagan or a tax collector.

Matthew. 28:19–20

Go
ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to
observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am
with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John
10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them
also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be
one fold, and one shepherd.

John 17:20-23

Neither
pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me
through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in
me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world
may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest
me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in
them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that
the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as
thou hast loved me.

John 20:21-23

Then said Jesus
to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so
send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith
unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit,
they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they
are retained.

Acts 4:32

And the multitude of them
that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of
them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but
they had all things common.

Romans 12:5

So we,
being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of
another.

Romans 16:17

Now I beseech you, brethren,
mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine
which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1 Corinthians
1:10-13

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no
divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the
same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me
of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that
there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of
you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of
Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye
baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Corinthians 3:3-4

For
ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and
strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while
one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not
carnal?

1 Corinthians 4:14-15

I write not these
things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye
have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many
fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
[NIV: I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear
children. Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you
do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father
through the gospel]

1 Corinthians 10:17

For we being
many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that
one bread.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19

For first of all,
when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions
among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies
among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among
you.

1 Corinthians 12:12-27

For as the body is one,
and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being
many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all
baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be
bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For
the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because
I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the
body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of
the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an
eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were
the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in
the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member,
where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body.
And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor
again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more
those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are
necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less
honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our
uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts
have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given
more abundant honour to that part which lacked. That there should be
no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care
one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members
suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice
with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1
Corinthians 14:33

For God is not the author of confusion, but
of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

2 Corinthians
12:20

For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such
as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not:
lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings,
whisperings, swellings, tumults:

Ephesians 2:19-20

Now
therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow
citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built
upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ
himself being the chief corner stone;

Ephesians
4:3-6

Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond
of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in
one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God
and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you
all.

Ephesians 5:25–27

Husbands, love your wives,
even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That
he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the
word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not
having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be
holy and without blemish.

Philippians 1:27

Only let
your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that
whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your
affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving
together for the faith of the gospel;

Philippians
2:2-3

Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same
love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through
strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other
better than themselves.

1 Thessalonians 2:11

As ye
know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a
father doth his children

1 Timothy 6:3-5

If any man
teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words
of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to
godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions
and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil
surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and
destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such
withdraw thyself.

Titus 3:9-10

But avoid foolish
questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the
law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick
after the first and second admonition reject;

James
3:16

For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and
every evil work.

2 Peter 2:1

But there were false
prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers
among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying
the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift
destruction.

Revelation 5:9–10

And they sung a
new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the
seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by
thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign
on the earth.

Revelation 19:7-8

Let us be glad and
rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is
come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted
that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the
fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Posted: 9/11/2014 11:47:30 AM EDT

[#4]

I believe it was Matthew who said " As far me and my house we shall serve the Lord". I agree.

Posted: 9/11/2014 4:24:49 PM EDT

[#5]

I think that was Joshua. Is your contention that the RCC does not serve the Lord? I am missing the point of your comment.

Posted: 9/11/2014 5:38:55 PM EDT

[#6]

The church was started on the day of Pentecost when the Father sent down the promised gift of the Holy Spirit.
After the disciples recieved this gift They "spoke in new tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance" Acts 2:1-13.

They performed miraculous gifts of healing, Acts 3:1-10.
Peter, who denied the Lord now had the courage to preach to the very people that crucified Jesus.
His street preaching ministry caused 3000 to accept the Lord. Acts 2:14-40.

The original church was what some would call "Pentecostal" because the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today, not just something that happened back then.
This still takes place among many beleivers who accept the Lord.

However sad to say, does not take place in the catholic church if it ever did at all. and not just catholics but many others who call themselves Christians.

Posted: 9/11/2014 9:25:15 PM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:

This still takes place among many beleivers who accept the Lord.

However sad to say, does not take place in the catholic church if it ever did at all.

View Quote

Based upon?

Posted: 9/11/2014 9:29:13 PM EDT

[#8]

I have seen miracles in the Catholic Church. My uncle was miraculously cured of cancer - tumor the size of an orange...day of the operation he asked for another x-ray (after praying to various saints to join him in praying to Our Lord for a cure) and they discovered.... no tumor, at all. Gone. Gone in 1 week from last check to being in the gurney ready for surgery.

I've seen other miracles of healing in the Catholic Church and atmospheric wonders or "coincidences" too.

Gifts of the spirit? Yep. Tongues, prophecy.... yep, there are Charismatic Catholics.

How about martyrs for the faith? This past year alone over 100,000 Catholics have been killed for their faith across Africa, Middle East and Asia. But let 1 Muslim get killed in Gaza and we all hear about it on the nightly news. Let one western hedon get his feelings HURT and we're all supposed to have a collective freak out. But 100,000 civilians killed for not renouncing their faith in Jesus as Lord? Total news blackout.

I think we all run the risk of epistemological bubbles - only reading the same sources and so getting a myopic view of reality. If all your news about Christianity is negative, doom and gloom, decline and destruction, you'll begin to feel like the Last of the Mohicans. But if you read more extensively you'll realize that for every bad news story there are 10 good news stories not widely disseminated.

For every high profile defection, there are 100 quiet conversions. Within the past month a friend of mine who was formerly a Pentecostal became Catholic and another friend who was a life long Baptist also became Catholic. One white, one black.

We're always on the brink of the abyss. We're always teetering on the brink of being buried by the world, flesh and devil. The 'institutional' Church always seems teetering on the brink of apostasy....and yet....and yet there's always saints rising up from nowhere to pull everything back together.

There's always a Mother Angelica rising up and founding an EWTN when the bishops failed to found Catholic tv. Or there are lay men and women rising up when others fail. I have met Protestants who suddenly felt the call and became Catholic in the literal 'nick' of time and went on to rescue whole Catholic parishes from collapse.... it's as though the Holy Spirit looks out over humanity and if He can't find any humble and willing Catholic to rescue the Church, He'll whistle up non-Catholics and do the wonders through them.

This thing, this "kingdom" this business of being disciples of the Lord Jesus is much, MUCH bigger than meets the eye guys. Much bigger. If our enemies are principalities and powers, what are our allies?

Posted: 9/11/2014 10:52:22 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:

The church was started on the day of Pentecost when the Father sent down the promised gift of the Holy Spirit.

After the disciples recieved this gift They "spoke in new tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance" Acts 2:1-13.

They performed miraculous gifts of healing, Acts 3:1-10.

Peter, who denied the Lord now had the courage to preach to the very people that crucified Jesus.

His street preaching ministry caused 3000 to accept the Lord. Acts 2:14-40.

The original church was what some would call "Pentecostal" because the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today, not just something that happened back then.

This still takes place among many beleivers who accept the Lord.

However sad to say, does not take place in the catholic church if it ever did at all. and not just catholics but many others who call themselves Christians.

View Quote

The original Church was what some would call 'Catholic' because they believed in the authority of the apostles, the real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, confession of sins, baptismal regeneration and liturgical uniformity among other things.

Posted: 9/12/2014 6:57:15 AM EDT

[#10]

Excellent read.

Thanks Twire!

Posted: 9/12/2014 5:28:14 PM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:
I have seen miracles in the Catholic Church. My uncle was miraculously cured of cancer - tumor the size of an orange...day of the operation he asked for another x-ray (after praying to various saints to join him in praying to Our Lord for a cure) and they discovered.... no tumor, at all. Gone. Gone in 1 week from last check to being in the gurney ready for surgery.

I've seen other miracles of healing in the Catholic Church and atmospheric wonders or "coincidences" too.

Gifts of the spirit? Yep. Tongues, prophecy.... yep, there are Charismatic Catholics.

How about martyrs for the faith? This past year alone over 100,000 Catholics have been killed for their faith across Africa, Middle East and Asia. But let 1 Muslim get killed in Gaza and we all hear about it on the nightly news. Let one western hedon get his feelings HURT and we're all supposed to have a collective freak out. But 100,000 civilians killed for not renouncing their faith in Jesus as Lord? Total news blackout.

I think we all run the risk of epistemological bubbles - only reading the same sources and so getting a myopic view of reality. If all your news about Christianity is negative, doom and gloom, decline and destruction, you'll begin to feel like the Last of the Mohicans. But if you read more extensively you'll realize that for every bad news story there are 10 good news stories not widely disseminated.

For every high profile defection, there are 100 quiet conversions. Within the past month a friend of mine who was formerly a Pentecostal became Catholic and another friend who was a life long Baptist also became Catholic. One white, one black.

We're always on the brink of the abyss. We're always teetering on the brink of being buried by the world, flesh and devil. The 'institutional' Church always seems teetering on the brink of apostasy....and yet....and yet there's always saints rising up from nowhere to pull everything back together.

There's always a Mother Angelica rising up and founding an EWTN when the bishops failed to found Catholic tv. Or there are lay men and women rising up when others fail. I have met Protestants who suddenly felt the call and became Catholic in the literal 'nick' of time and went on to rescue whole Catholic parishes from collapse.... it's as though the Holy Spirit looks out over humanity and if He can't find any humble and willing Catholic to rescue the Church, He'll whistle up non-Catholics and do the wonders through them.

This thing, this "kingdom" this business of being disciples of the Lord Jesus is much, MUCH bigger than meets the eye guys. Much bigger. If our enemies are principalities and powers, what are our allies?

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Great news about your uncle, how come this only happens with catholics on this forum? I grew up in the catholic church, went to catholic grade school.
How come when I tell a catholic that Jesus set me free of a nicotine addiction, alcohol, sexual immorality many other things I am told by my catholic family members that I joined a cult?
Or the guy at work who has a 6" crucifix hanging on his neck in the open, tells me I'm "loco"?

Youre friend was not a Born Again Holy Spirit filled Christian. Being Born Again and catholicism do not go together. There are people that attend my church and if they died they would go straight to hell. They may come to church because there parents make them or they like to listen to the Pastor but yet never act on the Word they hear.

Posted: 9/12/2014 6:16:31 PM EDT

[#12]

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Excellent read.
Thanks Twire!

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Quoted:
Excellent read.
Thanks Twire!

+1

I love these threads simply because they give lie to the (incessantly repeated) claim that Catholicism 'isn't Biblical'.

Quoted:
Youre friend was not a Born Again Holy Spirit filled Christian.Being Born Again and catholicism do not go together. There are people that attend my church and if they died they would go straight to hell. They may come to church because there parents make them or they like to listen to the Pastor but yet never act on the Word they hear.

That is a shockingly ugly and presumptuous statement to make. Grammar aside, I have real difficulty believing a true Christian would say something like that.

Posted: 9/12/2014 6:18:57 PM EDT

[#13]

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The original Church was what some would call 'Catholic' because they believed in the authority of the apostles, the real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, confession of sins, baptismal regeneration and liturgical uniformity among other things.

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The church was started on the day of Pentecost when the Father sent down the promised gift of the Holy Spirit.
After the disciples recieved this gift They "spoke in new tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance" Acts 2:1-13.

They performed miraculous gifts of healing, Acts 3:1-10.
Peter, who denied the Lord now had the courage to preach to the very people that crucified Jesus.
His street preaching ministry caused 3000 to accept the Lord. Acts 2:14-40.

The original church was what some would call "Pentecostal" because the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today, not just something that happened back then.
This still takes place among many beleivers who accept the Lord.

However sad to say, does not take place in the catholic church if it ever did at all. and not just catholics but many others who call themselves Christians.

The original Church was what some would call 'Catholic' because they believed in the authority of the apostles, the real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, confession of sins, baptismal regeneration and liturgical uniformity among other things.

Since you say the real presence of Jesus is in the Eucharist, tell us what happens to you when you eat it?

Also can you tell us more about baptismal regeneration?

Posted: 9/12/2014 6:21:36 PM EDT

[#14]

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Since you say the real presence of Jesus is in the Eucharist, tell us what happens to you when you eat it?

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Since you (seemingly) deny the True Presence, tell us why St Paul lied when he described the Eucharist Celebration in the oldest of the New Testament writings (1 Corinthians)?

Posted: 9/12/2014 6:36:06 PM EDT

[#15]

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I believe it was Matthew who said " As far me and my house we shall serve the Lord". I agree.

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I believe it was Matthew who said " As far me and my house we shall serve the Lord". I agree.

Quoted:
I think that was Joshua. Is your contention that the RCC does not serve the Lord? I am missing the point of your comment.

artman said naught about the RCC. I am missing the point of your comment.

Posted: 9/12/2014 6:43:31 PM EDT

[#16]

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Quoted:

Since you (seemingly) deny the True Presence, tell us why St Paul lied when he described the Eucharist Celebration in the oldest of the New Testament writings (1 Corinthians)?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Since you say the real presence of Jesus is in the Eucharist, tell us what happens to you when you eat it?

Since you (seemingly) deny the True Presence, tell us why St Paul lied when he described the Eucharist Celebration in the oldest of the New Testament writings (1 Corinthians)?

I have several versions of the Bible, and not a single one of them contains the word eucharist. !st Corinthians does speak of Passover though.

1Co 5:6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
1Co 5:7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Posted: 9/12/2014 6:50:41 PM EDT

[#17]

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Quoted:

+1

I love these threads simply because they give lie to the (incessantly repeated) claim that Catholicism 'isn't Biblical'.

That is a shockingly ugly and presumptuous statement to make. Grammar aside, I have real difficulty believing a true Christian would say something like that.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Excellent read.
Thanks Twire!

+1

I love these threads simply because they give lie to the (incessantly repeated) claim that Catholicism 'isn't Biblical'.

Quoted:
Youre friend was not a Born Again Holy Spirit filled Christian.Being Born Again and catholicism do not go together. There are people that attend my church and if they died they would go straight to hell. They may come to church because there parents make them or they like to listen to the Pastor but yet never act on the Word they hear.

That is a shockingly ugly and presumptuous statement to make. Grammar aside, I have real difficulty believing a true Christian would say something like that.

So you read the Bible? Then you must have read what Jesus said in John 3:3

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Not Born again? Then you are not going to heaven.

Posted: 9/12/2014 6:51:40 PM EDT

[#18]

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Quoted:

Since you (seemingly) deny the True Presence, tell us why St Paul lied when he described the Eucharist Celebration in the oldest of the New Testament writings (1 Corinthians)?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Since you say the real presence of Jesus is in the Eucharist, tell us what happens to you when you eat it?

Since you (seemingly) deny the True Presence, tell us why St Paul lied when he described the Eucharist Celebration in the oldest of the New Testament writings (1 Corinthians)?

Paul lied?? Please give me a chapter and verse?

Posted: 9/12/2014 7:56:22 PM EDT

[#19]

Funny, I've got a bible and nowhere does it have the word "Protestant" in it. Or the phrase "faith alone saves you".

Or "altar call".

Or the injunction to call a fellow lay man "pastor" or 'doctor' or 'reverend'.

Neither is the word "Trinity" in the bible. But the concept is. Just as the concept of 'altar call' or calling a leader "pastor".

So too, the word "Eucharist" is the Greek for "Thanksgiving" and is shorthand for what is said in the liturgical prayer during the 'breaking of the bread' which is very much in the Bible, Gospel of John and Luke and Acts and Paul's letters.

Early Christians 'broke bread' and Paul clearly states that if you don't acknowledge the Lord's body and blood in this, you are guilty of the Lord's body and blood.

So it goes.... Catholics who know their faith simply draw on more exegesis, more reflection on the meaning of the scripture than our Protestant brothers whose religious history typically goes back only about 2-3 generations as they reinvent their theology every 100 years or so.

This is why 100 years ago NO Protestant church taught that contraception was OK and now pretty much all do.
50 years ago NO Protestant church taught that open homosexuality was O and now recent surveys show well over 30% do.

When one's doctrine is ultimately decided on the personal level, one gets chaos like this.

I say this not with triumph or a feeling of smug superiority but with grief. The vast majority of my kin are Protestant. My family tree was Protestant since the time of Luther until my Grandfather's day when he converted to Catholicism (as was disowned such that growing up we never knew any cousins). Lots of good folk suffering and dying for lack of clear faith.

Most surveys show that Baptists and other Protestants have a HIGHER rate of attrition than Catholics. If you are a Protestant you are more likely to abandon your particular group than the typical Catholic is to leave Catholicism. Unfortunately many Protestants are leaving for atheism either overtly or practical and that's the shame.

Posted: 9/12/2014 8:47:08 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
Funny, I've got a bible and nowhere does it have the word "Protestant" in it. Or the phrase "faith alone saves you".

Or "altar call".

Or the injunction to call a fellow lay man "pastor" or 'doctor' or 'reverend'.

Neither is the word "Trinity" in the bible. But the concept is. Just as the concept of 'altar call' or calling a leader "pastor".

So too, the word "Eucharist" is the Greek for "Thanksgiving" and is shorthand for what is said in the liturgical prayer during the 'breaking of the bread' which is very much in the Bible, Gospel of John and Luke and Acts and Paul's letters.

Early Christians 'broke bread' and Paul clearly states that if you don't acknowledge the Lord's body and blood in this, you are guilty of the Lord's body and blood.

So it goes.... Catholics who know their faith simply draw on more exegesis, more reflection on the meaning of the scripture than our Protestant brothers whose religious history typically goes back only about 2-3 generations as they reinvent their theology every 100 years or so.

This is why 100 years ago NO Protestant church taught that contraception was OK and now pretty much all do.
50 years ago NO Protestant church taught that open homosexuality was O and now recent surveys show well over 30% do.

When one's doctrine is ultimately decided on the personal level, one gets chaos like this.

I say this not with triumph or a feeling of smug superiority but with grief. The vast majority of my kin are Protestant. My family tree was Protestant since the time of Luther until my Grandfather's day when he converted to Catholicism (as was disowned such that growing up we never knew any cousins). Lots of good folk suffering and dying for lack of clear faith.

Most surveys show that Baptists and other Protestants have a HIGHER rate of attrition than Catholics. If you are a Protestant you are more likely to abandon your particular group than the typical Catholic is to leave Catholicism. Unfortunately many Protestants are leaving for atheism either overtly or practical and that's the shame.

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There are numerous Scriptures about being saved by Faith in Jesus Christ. I will use 2 that Jesus said.

John 3:16-21 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God

Also John 6:28-29
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

I dont base my Faith on popular opinion or what the latest poll says. But on the work that Jesus did on the cross when He died for me.
And I beleive that the Bible is the Word of God and was written by Born Again Christians as the Holy Spirit led them to write.

Posted: 9/13/2014 12:17:40 AM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:
Funny, I've got a bible and nowhere does it have the word "Protestant" in it. Or the phrase "faith alone saves you".

Or "altar call".

Or the injunction to call a fellow lay man "pastor" or 'doctor' or 'reverend'.

Neither is the word "Trinity" in the bible. But the concept is. Just as the concept of 'altar call' or calling a leader "pastor".

So too, the word "Eucharist" is the Greek for "Thanksgiving" and is shorthand for what is said in the liturgical prayer during the 'breaking of the bread' which is very much in the Bible, Gospel of John and Luke and Acts and Paul's letters.

Early Christians 'broke bread' and Paul clearly states that if you don't acknowledge the Lord's body and blood in this, you are guilty of the Lord's body and blood.

So it goes.... Catholics who know their faith simply draw on more exegesis, more reflection on the meaning of the scripture than our Protestant brothers whose religious history typically goes back only about 2-3 generations as they reinvent their theology every 100 years or so.

This is why 100 years ago NO Protestant church taught that contraception was OK and now pretty much all do.
50 years ago NO Protestant church taught that open homosexuality was O and now recent surveys show well over 30% do.

When one's doctrine is ultimately decided on the personal level, one gets chaos like this.

I say this not with triumph or a feeling of smug superiority but with grief. The vast majority of my kin are Protestant. My family tree was Protestant since the time of Luther until my Grandfather's day when he converted to Catholicism (as was disowned such that growing up we never knew any cousins). Lots of good folk suffering and dying for lack of clear faith.

Most surveys show that Baptists and other Protestants have a HIGHER rate of attrition than Catholics. If you are a Protestant you are more likely to abandon your particular group than the typical Catholic is to leave Catholicism. Unfortunately many Protestants are leaving for atheism either overtly or practical and that's the shame.

View Quote

My Bibles don't have those words in them either, and I don't adhere to them. I sure don't know why you would attribute them to me. Why is it that if someone questions Catholicism, they receive some kind of automatic anti Protestant rant? If you don't know someone, how can you assign them with a religion?
Passover in Hebrew is PASACH, not eucharist, easter. ishtar or anything else. PASACH is the word also used for when a mother hen wraps her wings around her chicks, to protect them. Yeshua, misstransliterated Jesus, instructs His followers to observe PASACH, representing His Blood, shed on the tree for our sins. We are to eat unleavened bread on this Holy Day to remember the Children of Israel leaving Egypt in a hurry, before their bread had time to rise, not hot cross buns and pig.

I am guilty of His precious spilled Blood, and without that shed Blood, I'd be nothing more than walking dead.

Posted: 9/13/2014 8:07:20 AM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
Funny, I've got a bible and nowhere does it have the word "Protestant" in it. Or the phrase "faith alone saves you".

Or "altar call".

Or the injunction to call a fellow lay man "pastor" or 'doctor' or 'reverend'.

Neither is the word "Trinity" in the bible. But the concept is. Just as the concept of 'altar call' or calling a leader "pastor".

So too, the word "Eucharist" is the Greek for "Thanksgiving" and is shorthand for what is said in the liturgical prayer during the 'breaking of the bread' which is very much in the Bible, Gospel of John and Luke and Acts and Paul's letters.

Early Christians 'broke bread' and Paul clearly states that if you don't acknowledge the Lord's body and blood in this, you are guilty of the Lord's body and blood.

So it goes.... Catholics who know their faith simply draw on more exegesis, more reflection on the meaning of the scripture than our Protestant brothers whose religious history typically goes back only about 2-3 generations as they reinvent their theology every 100 years or so.

View Quote

This,

The whole 'That word never appears in the Bible!' argument is silly.

Posted: 9/13/2014 1:20:15 PM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:
Great news about your uncle, how come this only happens with catholics on this forum? I grew up in the catholic church, went to catholic grade school.

How come when I tell a catholic that Jesus set me free of a nicotine addiction, alcohol, sexual immorality many other things I am told by my catholic family members that I joined a cult?

Or the guy at work who has a 6" crucifix hanging on his neck in the open, tells me I'm "loco"?

Youre friend was not a Born Again Holy Spirit filled Christian. Being Born Again and catholicism do not go together. There are people that attend my church and if they died they would go straight to hell. They may come to church because there parents make them or they like to listen to the Pastor but yet never act on the Word they hear.

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I have seen miracles in the Catholic Church. My uncle was miraculously cured of cancer - tumor the size of an orange...day of the operation he asked for another x-ray (after praying to various saints to join him in praying to Our Lord for a cure) and they discovered.... no tumor, at all. Gone. Gone in 1 week from last check to being in the gurney ready for surgery.

I've seen other miracles of healing in the Catholic Church and atmospheric wonders or "coincidences" too.

Gifts of the spirit? Yep. Tongues, prophecy.... yep, there are Charismatic Catholics.

How about martyrs for the faith? This past year alone over 100,000 Catholics have been killed for their faith across Africa, Middle East and Asia. But let 1 Muslim get killed in Gaza and we all hear about it on the nightly news. Let one western hedon get his feelings HURT and we're all supposed to have a collective freak out. But 100,000 civilians killed for not renouncing their faith in Jesus as Lord? Total news blackout.

I think we all run the risk of epistemological bubbles - only reading the same sources and so getting a myopic view of reality. If all your news about Christianity is negative, doom and gloom, decline and destruction, you'll begin to feel like the Last of the Mohicans. But if you read more extensively you'll realize that for every bad news story there are 10 good news stories not widely disseminated.

For every high profile defection, there are 100 quiet conversions. Within the past month a friend of mine who was formerly a Pentecostal became Catholic and another friend who was a life long Baptist also became Catholic. One white, one black.

We're always on the brink of the abyss. We're always teetering on the brink of being buried by the world, flesh and devil. The 'institutional' Church always seems teetering on the brink of apostasy....and yet....and yet there's always saints rising up from nowhere to pull everything back together.

There's always a Mother Angelica rising up and founding an EWTN when the bishops failed to found Catholic tv. Or there are lay men and women rising up when others fail. I have met Protestants who suddenly felt the call and became Catholic in the literal 'nick' of time and went on to rescue whole Catholic parishes from collapse.... it's as though the Holy Spirit looks out over humanity and if He can't find any humble and willing Catholic to rescue the Church, He'll whistle up non-Catholics and do the wonders through them.

This thing, this "kingdom" this business of being disciples of the Lord Jesus is much, MUCH bigger than meets the eye guys. Much bigger. If our enemies are principalities and powers, what are our allies?

Great news about your uncle, how come this only happens with catholics on this forum? I grew up in the catholic church, went to catholic grade school.

How come when I tell a catholic that Jesus set me free of a nicotine addiction, alcohol, sexual immorality many other things I am told by my catholic family members that I joined a cult?

Or the guy at work who has a 6" crucifix hanging on his neck in the open, tells me I'm "loco"?

Youre friend was not a Born Again Holy Spirit filled Christian. Being Born Again and catholicism do not go together. There are people that attend my church and if they died they would go straight to hell. They may come to church because there parents make them or they like to listen to the Pastor but yet never act on the Word they hear.

The greatest opponents to the Catholic faith or faith in general usually come from faith. Please note that this is not unique to Catholics. I am in this with my son right now. Being BORN AGAIN.. if you mean re-baptized... doesn't wash away your Catholicism. A faith journey sometimes means walking away but born again?

*Didn't you just recommit to what was your birth right to begin with?

*Did you know that it was your inheritance... a gift?

*Did YOU truly seek Christ while you were Catholic?

*I am curious as to what challenge you faced that didn't align with your life in your faith?

* What parts don't you agree with specifically?

* When you read the bible is there nothing familiar about the scriptures you heard at mass?

*Did you attend mass?

* Do you understand what happens at mass?

* Is the teaching of the church? Was it a person or event that made you angry?

* Do you feel completely fulfilled where you practice your faith now and do you completely dismiss the Holy Eucharist?

* Do you believe that people who go to your church do not sin?

* Do you believe that you are allowed to sin now because of your new baptism?

* If that is the case then the people who will go to hell at your church don't they have the same privileged of redemption as you have through their rebirth?

* Do you completely agree with everything your new faith teaches and preaches?

*You said there are people who would go straight to hell? How do you know?

* Do you act on the words you hear.

* Is that exclusively towards non catholics or do you act on those words with all?

Asking to understand for my son and not to judge.

Posted: 9/13/2014 1:30:13 PM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:

This,

The whole 'That word never appears in the Bible!' argument is silly.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Funny, I've got a bible and nowhere does it have the word "Protestant" in it. Or the phrase "faith alone saves you".

Or "altar call".

Or the injunction to call a fellow lay man "pastor" or 'doctor' or 'reverend'.

Neither is the word "Trinity" in the bible. But the concept is. Just as the concept of 'altar call' or calling a leader "pastor".

So too, the word "Eucharist" is the Greek for "Thanksgiving" and is shorthand for what is said in the liturgical prayer during the 'breaking of the bread' which is very much in the Bible, Gospel of John and Luke and Acts and Paul's letters.

Early Christians 'broke bread' and Paul clearly states that if you don't acknowledge the Lord's body and blood in this, you are guilty of the Lord's body and blood.

So it goes.... Catholics who know their faith simply draw on more exegesis, more reflection on the meaning of the scripture than our Protestant brothers whose religious history typically goes back only about 2-3 generations as they reinvent their theology every 100 years or so.

This,

The whole 'That word never appears in the Bible!' argument is silly.

I guess it does, if you follow traditions of men, instead of the Bible.

Posted: 9/13/2014 1:40:22 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:

I guess it does, if you follow traditions of men, instead of the Bible.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
The whole 'That word never appears in the Bible!' argument is silly.

I guess it does, if you follow traditions of men, instead of the Bible.

LOL, did you even read the OP?

Posted: 9/13/2014 2:02:53 PM EDT

[#26]

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Quoted:

LOL, did you even read the OP?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
The whole 'That word never appears in the Bible!' argument is silly.

I guess it does, if you follow traditions of men, instead of the Bible.

LOL, did you even read the OP?

yes

Posted: 9/13/2014 2:35:17 PM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:

I guess it does, if you follow traditions of men, instead of the Bible.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Funny, I've got a bible and nowhere does it have the word "Protestant" in it. Or the phrase "faith alone saves you".

Or "altar call".

Or the injunction to call a fellow lay man "pastor" or 'doctor' or 'reverend'.

Neither is the word "Trinity" in the bible. But the concept is. Just as the concept of 'altar call' or calling a leader "pastor".

So too, the word "Eucharist" is the Greek for "Thanksgiving" and is shorthand for what is said in the liturgical prayer during the 'breaking of the bread' which is very much in the Bible, Gospel of John and Luke and Acts and Paul's letters.

Early Christians 'broke bread' and Paul clearly states that if you don't acknowledge the Lord's body and blood in this, you are guilty of the Lord's body and blood.

So it goes.... Catholics who know their faith simply draw on more exegesis, more reflection on the meaning of the scripture than our Protestant brothers whose religious history typically goes back only about 2-3 generations as they reinvent their theology every 100 years or so.

This,

The whole 'That word never appears in the Bible!' argument is silly.

I guess it does, if you follow traditions of men, instead of the Bible.

Posted: 9/13/2014 3:19:00 PM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Funny, I've got a bible and nowhere does it have the word "Protestant" in it. Or the phrase "faith alone saves you".

Or "altar call".

Or the injunction to call a fellow lay man "pastor" or 'doctor' or 'reverend'.

Neither is the word "Trinity" in the bible. But the concept is. Just as the concept of 'altar call' or calling a leader "pastor".

So too, the word "Eucharist" is the Greek for "Thanksgiving" and is shorthand for what is said in the liturgical prayer during the 'breaking of the bread' which is very much in the Bible, Gospel of John and Luke and Acts and Paul's letters.

Early Christians 'broke bread' and Paul clearly states that if you don't acknowledge the Lord's body and blood in this, you are guilty of the Lord's body and blood.

So it goes.... Catholics who know their faith simply draw on more exegesis, more reflection on the meaning of the scripture than our Protestant brothers whose religious history typically goes back only about 2-3 generations as they reinvent their theology every 100 years or so.

This,

The whole 'That word never appears in the Bible!' argument is silly.

I guess it does, if you follow traditions of men, instead of the Bible.

Yeah, that's a real intelligent reply. It reminds me of arguing with a liberal. You give them facts, and they come back with emotions, and even hatred.
We all have a choice. We can follow the Messiah, which even a child knows that this means to do as He does, the best we can, or we can follow pagans kike Constantine, who polluted sound Biblical teachings, by mixing them with Sun worship. The Messiah did not change Sabbath to the day of the Sun. He did not change our Father in Heaven's Holy Set Apart Days to pagan sun worshiper's days. He did not violate sound dietary teaching. As for me and my house, we will follow our Lord and Savior, Yeshua.

Posted: 9/13/2014 5:29:55 PM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
The greatest opponents to the Catholic faith or faith in general usually come from faith. Please note that this is not unique to Catholics. I am in this with my son right now. Being BORN AGAIN.. if you mean re-baptized... doesn't wash away your Catholicism. A faith journey sometimes means walking away but born again?
*Didn't you just recommit to what was your birth right to begin with?
*Did you know that it was your inheritance... a gift?
*Did YOU truly seek Christ while you were Catholic?
*I am curious as to what challenge you faced that didn't align with your life in your faith?
* What parts don't you agree with specifically?
* When you read the bible is there nothing familiar about the scriptures you heard at mass?
*Did you attend mass?
* Do you understand what happens at mass?
* Is the teaching of the church? Was it a person or event that made you angry?
* Do you feel completely fulfilled where you practice your faith now and do you completely dismiss the Holy Eucharist?
* Do you believe that people who go to your church do not sin?
* Do you believe that you are allowed to sin now because of your new baptism?
* If that is the case then the people who will go to hell at your church don't they have the same privileged of redemption as you have through their rebirth?
* Do you completely agree with everything your new faith teaches and preaches?
*You said there are people who would go straight to hell? How do you know?
* Do you act on the words you hear.
* Is that exclusively towards non catholics or do you act on those words with all?
Asking to understand for my son and not to judge.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
I have seen miracles in the Catholic Church. My uncle was miraculously cured of cancer - tumor the size of an orange...day of the operation he asked for another x-ray (after praying to various saints to join him in praying to Our Lord for a cure) and they discovered.... no tumor, at all. Gone. Gone in 1 week from last check to being in the gurney ready for surgery.

I've seen other miracles of healing in the Catholic Church and atmospheric wonders or "coincidences" too.

Gifts of the spirit? Yep. Tongues, prophecy.... yep, there are Charismatic Catholics.

How about martyrs for the faith? This past year alone over 100,000 Catholics have been killed for their faith across Africa, Middle East and Asia. But let 1 Muslim get killed in Gaza and we all hear about it on the nightly news. Let one western hedon get his feelings HURT and we're all supposed to have a collective freak out. But 100,000 civilians killed for not renouncing their faith in Jesus as Lord? Total news blackout.

I think we all run the risk of epistemological bubbles - only reading the same sources and so getting a myopic view of reality. If all your news about Christianity is negative, doom and gloom, decline and destruction, you'll begin to feel like the Last of the Mohicans. But if you read more extensively you'll realize that for every bad news story there are 10 good news stories not widely disseminated.

For every high profile defection, there are 100 quiet conversions. Within the past month a friend of mine who was formerly a Pentecostal became Catholic and another friend who was a life long Baptist also became Catholic. One white, one black.

We're always on the brink of the abyss. We're always teetering on the brink of being buried by the world, flesh and devil. The 'institutional' Church always seems teetering on the brink of apostasy....and yet....and yet there's always saints rising up from nowhere to pull everything back together.

There's always a Mother Angelica rising up and founding an EWTN when the bishops failed to found Catholic tv. Or there are lay men and women rising up when others fail. I have met Protestants who suddenly felt the call and became Catholic in the literal 'nick' of time and went on to rescue whole Catholic parishes from collapse.... it's as though the Holy Spirit looks out over humanity and if He can't find any humble and willing Catholic to rescue the Church, He'll whistle up non-Catholics and do the wonders through them.

This thing, this "kingdom" this business of being disciples of the Lord Jesus is much, MUCH bigger than meets the eye guys. Much bigger. If our enemies are principalities and powers, what are our allies?

Great news about your uncle, how come this only happens with catholics on this forum? I grew up in the catholic church, went to catholic grade school.
How come when I tell a catholic that Jesus set me free of a nicotine addiction, alcohol, sexual immorality many other things I am told by my catholic family members that I joined a cult?
Or the guy at work who has a 6" crucifix hanging on his neck in the open, tells me I'm "loco"?

Youre friend was not a Born Again Holy Spirit filled Christian. Being Born Again and catholicism do not go together. There are people that attend my church and if they died they would go straight to hell. They may come to church because there parents make them or they like to listen to the Pastor but yet never act on the Word they hear.

The greatest opponents to the Catholic faith or faith in general usually come from faith. Please note that this is not unique to Catholics. I am in this with my son right now. Being BORN AGAIN.. if you mean re-baptized... doesn't wash away your Catholicism. A faith journey sometimes means walking away but born again?
*Didn't you just recommit to what was your birth right to begin with?
*Did you know that it was your inheritance... a gift?
*Did YOU truly seek Christ while you were Catholic?
*I am curious as to what challenge you faced that didn't align with your life in your faith?
* What parts don't you agree with specifically?
* When you read the bible is there nothing familiar about the scriptures you heard at mass?
*Did you attend mass?
* Do you understand what happens at mass?
* Is the teaching of the church? Was it a person or event that made you angry?
* Do you feel completely fulfilled where you practice your faith now and do you completely dismiss the Holy Eucharist?
* Do you believe that people who go to your church do not sin?
* Do you believe that you are allowed to sin now because of your new baptism?
* If that is the case then the people who will go to hell at your church don't they have the same privileged of redemption as you have through their rebirth?
* Do you completely agree with everything your new faith teaches and preaches?
*You said there are people who would go straight to hell? How do you know?
* Do you act on the words you hear.
* Is that exclusively towards non catholics or do you act on those words with all?
Asking to understand for my son and not to judge.

You asked a lot of questions and I will answer them but not all at once.
I did not say that you must be Born Again in order to go to heaven. Jesus did! I was just repeating his words. That is in Johns Gospel chapter 3.
1 Cor 6:9-11
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

With the exception of being a Homosexual, I was all of the above plus others not mentioned. But notice verse 11. But that is what you were! So that means you can get out of a sinfull life.

Jesus can get you out of a sinfull lifestyle, I am not the man I used to be. Does this mean I am sinless? absolutely not. I still can have unclean thoughts which is sin. But I dont act on them like I used to. And I can get angry and frustrated at work and act in a sinfull manner.
I was on my way to hell, but then I met Jesus and He saved me from it. This change did not come about by being a practicing catholic.

The indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit is a Gift from God and is not recieved from and ceremony, or a mans decision. John 1:12-13

Not sure what you are going thru with your son, if you would like a different perpective you can IM me.

Posted: 9/13/2014 11:57:06 PM EDT

[#30]

well, then we're both on the right path then - every Catholic who is fully conscious during Mass and prays the prayers rather than just says them will acknowledge his sin, accept responsibility for sin, ask God for mercy, call Jesus "Lord and savior", ask God for forgiveness, give forgiveness to everyone he can think of, and then receive Jesus' body and blood and thereby open his entire being to Jesus as disciple.

You can't get closer to Jesus in any other way - not in an altar call (that's what Catholic communion starts as...we all process to the altar), not in a euphoric 'sinners prayer' (that happens in the introductory rite of the Mass). Not in a 'born again' experience either - that happens during the beginning of the eucharistic liturgy. Only fully, consciously, freely accepting the very body and blood of Jesus into your body, blood and soul gets you to actual communion with Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Just as there are many called but few chosen, so too there are many Protestant and Catholics who have at one time or another accepted Jesus as Lord only to later turn away from Him for the sake of the world, flesh, and devil. So long as we're in the body, we're free and thus can sin and can unfortunately turn from the Lord as unwise virgins or bad servants.

So we must pray always not to be put to the test. We must avoid occasions of sin and seek 'occasions of grace'. That's why the Lord taught us the Our Father prayer... if the Gospel really taught a "once saved always saved" doctrine, the Lord's prayer wouldn't make much sense. Why worry about being put to the test if one can't fail?

But fail we can....so we must strive to remain in Jesus' love and in communion with the saints.

Speaking of the saints....many Protestants sneer at Catholics for "obeying traditions of men" as though they don't also obey traditions of men! Luther was a man. If you agree with him on anything, you are following some teaching that was handed down.....by men.....to your day.

If you accept the validity of the very Bible you are accepting the teaching of men because the 73 books of the Bible did not drop out of the sky, they were assembled and ratified AS DIVINELY INSPIRED in 381 at the Catholic council of Chalcedon in which a bunch of Catholic bishops, in an effort to safe guard the faith from the on-going Arian heresy, declared which books were the Word of God and which were just words of men (such as the Gospels of Peter, Thomas, etc.).

It was this group of Catholic bishops who decided Paul's letter to Philemon was inspired as well as Maccabees 1 and 2 etc.

And this group of bishops were alive 60 years after the great council of Nicea, in which we got the creed... by the 3rd century the Church had all the marks it does today. It didn't look or sound or feel or preach anything like what the Protestants who practically worship the book think about 'early christianity'.

The bible is a Catholic book. We wrote it, we assembled it, we ratified it, and we safeguarded it. If you are Christian at all, it's because the truth in the Bible came to you at great cost of martyrdom and saints from Catholics.

Seek as you might and you won't find anything in the Bible that contradicts what the Catholic Church is. That's an audacious claim but there it is.....

Nowhere do we see Jesus talking about 'once saved always saved' or 'loveless faith saves' or faithless love. Nowhere do we see Our Lord commanding people to write his words, print up a million copies, hand them out to individuals who will be infallibly guided to the truth on their own. Instead we see Him establishing a hierarchy, giving this hierarchy real authority to teach, to make disciples, to preach, to heal, to cast out, to bind or loosen. We see celibacy and vows of virginity. We see relics and even the shadow of the saints healing or casting out demons. We see the 7 sacraments. Belief in guardian angels....

The fact that of 1.4 billion Catholics there are untold millions who are egregious sinners proves nothing but that we're human. Finding sinners in this valley of tears is no great feat or proof. The thing to explain are the saints and martyrs, the mystics and wonder workers. Finding uneducated Catholics is easy... but to 'prove' something one needs to take on the well prepared Catholics, the ones that Catholics themselves point to as 'apologists' and experts... if you silence those guys, the Scott Hahns and Fr. Barrons of the world, then you've got something. But shooting down some regular lay Catholic who hasn't paid attention in Mass (the few times he goes) proves nothing.

I suspect that if you are sincere in following the Lord that you'll arrive to where I am eventually and we'll be in full communion. I also suspect that if you've made it this far, the Lord has done incredible things in your life for a reason known only to Him in His providence and that it is for a great work of salvation. That you won't slip into the back pew as a "Joe ordinary" convert to Catholicism but as a great dynamic soul who bring Jesus to untold thousands of people who are hungry and dying for lack of Christ.

Far from thinking non-Catholics are obstacles or enemies, I think those non-Catholic Christians who pay us the compliment of attention (even to refute or argue) are great allies and comrades in this final crusade.

Posted: 9/14/2014 12:11:20 PM EDT

[#31]

The greatest opponents to the Catholic faith or faith in general usually come from faith. Please note that this is not unique to Catholics. I am in this with my son right now. Being BORN AGAIN.. if you mean re-baptized... doesn't wash away your Catholicism. A faith journey sometimes means walking away but born again?

When I was a catholic the few times I heard the term "Born Again" it was usually referenced to degrade other people or imply that they are wrong in some way.
Imagine my shock when I read the Bible later in life and found out that Jesus said you"MUST" be Born again. John chapter 3.
And the way you asked the question tells me you do not have any idea what it means. But neither did Nicodemus whom Jesus said that to.
If you want to get a better undertanding of that, Dont ask me, Ask Jesus yourself. Read John chapter 3 and hear His words directly.

If any body wants to know what water baptism is for, then why dont they just ask John the baptist? After all John is the man whom God sent. John 1;6
Matthew 3:11 "I baptise with water for repentance." That is what water baptism is for. period! nothing else.
There are a lot of people who baptise infants and say a number of different reasons but they all imply that it makes you a Christian.

Only the Blood of Jesus can wash away the stain of original sin. Make you a child of God, and regenerate sinfull man.
John never said water baptism was for anything else but repentance . And anyone who baptises infants and says that original sin is washed away or this baby is now a Christian or any other reason is denying the cross of Christ.
if what they say is true then God would only have had to send John the Baptist. Christ died for nothing.
It is scriptural for people whom have come to beleive that Jesus is Lord and accept Him for who he said He was to get water baptised after they recieved Him, and then repent of sin.

Did my catholicism get washed away? I guess it did, I am no longer one.

Posted: 9/14/2014 12:21:08 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
well, then we're both on the right path then - every Catholic who is fully conscious during Mass and prays the prayers rather than just says them will acknowledge his sin, accept responsibility for sin, ask God for mercy, call Jesus "Lord and savior", ask God for forgiveness, give forgiveness to everyone he can think of, and then receive Jesus' body and blood and thereby open his entire being to Jesus as disciple.

You can't get closer to Jesus in any other way - not in an altar call (that's what Catholic communion starts as...we all process to the altar), not in a euphoric 'sinners prayer' (that happens in the introductory rite of the Mass). Not in a 'born again' experience either - that happens during the beginning of the eucharistic liturgy. Only fully, consciously, freely accepting the very body and blood of Jesus into your body, blood and soul gets you to actual communion with Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Just as there are many called but few chosen, so too there are many Protestant and Catholics who have at one time or another accepted Jesus as Lord only to later turn away from Him for the sake of the world, flesh, and devil. So long as we're in the body, we're free and thus can sin and can unfortunately turn from the Lord as unwise virgins or bad servants.

So we must pray always not to be put to the test. We must avoid occasions of sin and seek 'occasions of grace'. That's why the Lord taught us the Our Father prayer... if the Gospel really taught a "once saved always saved" doctrine, the Lord's prayer wouldn't make much sense. Why worry about being put to the test if one can't fail?

But fail we can....so we must strive to remain in Jesus' love and in communion with the saints.

Speaking of the saints....many Protestants sneer at Catholics for "obeying traditions of men" as though they don't also obey traditions of men! Luther was a man. If you agree with him on anything, you are following some teaching that was handed down.....by men.....to your day.

If you accept the validity of the very Bible you are accepting the teaching of men because the 73 books of the Bible did not drop out of the sky, they were assembled and ratified AS DIVINELY INSPIRED in 381 at the Catholic council of Chalcedon in which a bunch of Catholic bishops, in an effort to safe guard the faith from the on-going Arian heresy, declared which books were the Word of God and which were just words of men (such as the Gospels of Peter, Thomas, etc.).

It was this group of Catholic bishops who decided Paul's letter to Philemon was inspired as well as Maccabees 1 and 2 etc.

And this group of bishops were alive 60 years after the great council of Nicea, in which we got the creed... by the 3rd century the Church had all the marks it does today. It didn't look or sound or feel or preach anything like what the Protestants who practically worship the book think about 'early christianity'.

The bible is a Catholic book. We wrote it, we assembled it, we ratified it, and we safeguarded it. If you are Christian at all, it's because the truth in the Bible came to you at great cost of martyrdom and saints from Catholics.

Seek as you might and you won't find anything in the Bible that contradicts what the Catholic Church is. That's an audacious claim but there it is.....

Nowhere do we see Jesus talking about 'once saved always saved' or 'loveless faith saves' or faithless love. Nowhere do we see Our Lord commanding people to write his words, print up a million copies, hand them out to individuals who will be infallibly guided to the truth on their own. Instead we see Him establishing a hierarchy, giving this hierarchy real authority to teach, to make disciples, to preach, to heal, to cast out, to bind or loosen. We see celibacy and vows of virginity. We see relics and even the shadow of the saints healing or casting out demons. We see the 7 sacraments. Belief in guardian angels....

The fact that of 1.4 billion Catholics there are untold millions who are egregious sinners proves nothing but that we're human. Finding sinners in this valley of tears is no great feat or proof. The thing to explain are the saints and martyrs, the mystics and wonder workers. Finding uneducated Catholics is easy... but to 'prove' something one needs to take on the well prepared Catholics, the ones that Catholics themselves point to as 'apologists' and experts... if you silence those guys, the Scott Hahns and Fr. Barrons of the world, then you've got something. But shooting down some regular lay Catholic who hasn't paid attention in Mass (the few times he goes) proves nothing.

I suspect that if you are sincere in following the Lord that you'll arrive to where I am eventually and we'll be in full communion. I also suspect that if you've made it this far, the Lord has done incredible things in your life for a reason known only to Him in His providence and that it is for a great work of salvation. That you won't slip into the back pew as a "Joe ordinary" convert to Catholicism but as a great dynamic soul who bring Jesus to untold thousands of people who are hungry and dying for lack of Christ.

Far from thinking non-Catholics are obstacles or enemies, I think those non-Catholic Christians who pay us the compliment of attention (even to refute or argue) are great allies and comrades in this final crusade.

View Quote

We may be on the same path but still we are opposite of each other,
The Holy Spirit is just that, A Spirit, not something you eat.

Where did I ever say "once saved always saved" If this was 2000 years ago you could have walked up to Jesus in the flesh and followed Him. But you could also walk away from Him.
Still do that today.
I dont know why one would, I dont want to go back to egypt. I would rather be free then go back to being a slave to sin.

Posted: 9/14/2014 5:11:10 PM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:

The greatest opponents to the Catholic faith or faith in general usually come from faith. Please note that this is not unique to Catholics. I am in this with my son right now. Being BORN AGAIN.. if you mean re-baptized... doesn't wash away your Catholicism. A faith journey sometimes means walking away but born again?

When I was a catholic the few times I heard the term "Born Again" it was usually referenced to degrade other people or imply that they are wrong in some way.

Imagine my shock when I read the Bible later in life and found out that Jesus said you"MUST" be Born again. John chapter 3.

And the way you asked the question tells me you do not have any idea what it means. But neither did Nicodemus whom Jesus said that to.

If you want to get a better undertanding of that, Dont ask me, Ask Jesus yourself. Read John chapter 3 and hear His words directly.

If any body wants to know what water baptism is for, then why dont they just ask John the baptist? After all John is the man whom God sent. John 1;6

Matthew 3:11 "I baptise with water for repentance." That is what water baptism is for. period! nothing else.

There are a lot of people who baptise infants and say a number of different reasons but they all imply that it makes you a Christian.

Only the Blood of Jesus can wash away the stain of original sin. Make you a child of God, and regenerate sinfull man.

John never said water baptism was for anything else but repentance . And anyone who baptises infants and says that original sin is washed away or this baby is now a Christian or any other reason is denying the cross of Christ.

if what they say is true then God would only have had to send John the Baptist. Christ died for nothing.

It is scriptural for people whom have come to beleive that Jesus is Lord and accept Him for who he said He was to get water baptised after they recieved Him, and then repent of sin.

Did my catholicism get washed away? I guess it did, I am no longer one.

View Quote

I celebrate your faith journey. But there is some things you didn't understand. Catholics recognize the baptism of other faiths. The Body and Blood of Christ are central to our faith, they are central to the mass and we believe. We believe that Jesus is the Lord the Son of God and that is also central to our faith.

Catholic doesn't wash off BECAUSE you are already baptized. I think I would feel the same as you had I not moved to the South. I paid attention in class but the move here where I constantly have to defend my belief, made me learn about why I believe. Had I stayed north I fear I would have missed the richness of what we have. Twire is offering you a gift. He shows the absolute biblical and fundamental nature of the Catholic faith.

Posted: 9/14/2014 8:46:30 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
I celebrate your faith journey. But there is some things you didn't understand. Catholics recognize the baptism of other faiths. The Body and Blood of Christ are central to our faith, they are central to the mass and we believe. We believe that Jesus is the Lord the Son of God and that is also central to our faith.
Catholic doesn't wash off BECAUSE you are already baptized. I think I would feel the same as you had I not moved to the South. I paid attention in class but the move here where I constantly have to defend my belief, made me learn about why I believe. Had I stayed north I fear I would have missed the richness of what we have. Twire is offering you a gift. He shows the absolute biblical and fundamental nature of the Catholic faith.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
The greatest opponents to the Catholic faith or faith in general usually come from faith. Please note that this is not unique to Catholics. I am in this with my son right now. Being BORN AGAIN.. if you mean re-baptized... doesn't wash away your Catholicism. A faith journey sometimes means walking away but born again?

When I was a catholic the few times I heard the term "Born Again" it was usually referenced to degrade other people or imply that they are wrong in some way.
Imagine my shock when I read the Bible later in life and found out that Jesus said you"MUST" be Born again. John chapter 3.
And the way you asked the question tells me you do not have any idea what it means. But neither did Nicodemus whom Jesus said that to.
If you want to get a better undertanding of that, Dont ask me, Ask Jesus yourself. Read John chapter 3 and hear His words directly.

If any body wants to know what water baptism is for, then why dont they just ask John the baptist? After all John is the man whom God sent. John 1;6
Matthew 3:11 "I baptise with water for repentance." That is what water baptism is for. period! nothing else.
There are a lot of people who baptise infants and say a number of different reasons but they all imply that it makes you a Christian.

Only the Blood of Jesus can wash away the stain of original sin. Make you a child of God, and regenerate sinfull man.
John never said water baptism was for anything else but repentance . And anyone who baptises infants and says that original sin is washed away or this baby is now a Christian or any other reason is denying the cross of Christ.
if what they say is true then God would only have had to send John the Baptist. Christ died for nothing.
It is scriptural for people whom have come to beleive that Jesus is Lord and accept Him for who he said He was to get water baptised after they recieved Him, and then repent of sin.

Did my catholicism get washed away? I guess it did, I am no longer one.

I celebrate your faith journey. But there is some things you didn't understand. Catholics recognize the baptism of other faiths. The Body and Blood of Christ are central to our faith, they are central to the mass and we believe. We believe that Jesus is the Lord the Son of God and that is also central to our faith.
Catholic doesn't wash off BECAUSE you are already baptized. I think I would feel the same as you had I not moved to the South. I paid attention in class but the move here where I constantly have to defend my belief, made me learn about why I believe. Had I stayed north I fear I would have missed the richness of what we have. Twire is offering you a gift. He shows the absolute biblical and fundamental nature of the Catholic faith.

never learned anything from twire, that I could not learn from Jesus. But maybe you can answer a question that he would not answer when I asked him in a past thread of his.

Do I need to be a Roman Catholic in order to go to heaven?

Posted: 9/14/2014 8:58:25 PM EDT

[#35]

The RCC interpretation of John 6 finds no support in the Book of Acts, exactly where you should be seeing it if it were true. If the RCC interpretation of John 6 is not true, then it is a different Jesus.

Posted: 9/14/2014 9:09:21 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
never learned anything from twire,
But maybe you can answer a question that he would not answer when I asked him in a past thread of his.

Do I need to be a Roman Catholic in order to go to heaven?

View Quote

No, to your question. If you're looking to learn, check out Peter Kreeft's Seven Reasons to be Catholic. It's only 30 minutes or so.

Posted: 9/15/2014 8:21:57 AM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:
The RCC interpretation of John 6 finds no support in the Book of Acts, exactly where you should be seeing it if it were true. If the RCC interpretation of John 6 is not true, then it is a different Jesus.

View Quote

So Catholics aren't true Christians?

Haven't heard that one here before...

Posted: 9/15/2014 8:27:11 AM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:

So Catholics aren't true Christians?

Haven't heard that one here before...

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
The RCC interpretation of John 6 finds no support in the Book of Acts, exactly where you should be seeing it if it were true. If the RCC interpretation of John 6 is not true, then it is a different Jesus.

So Catholics aren't true Christians?

Haven't heard that one here before...

Don't try to change the subject, show me where I am wrong from the Book of Acts.

Posted: 9/15/2014 9:17:00 AM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:

Don't try to change the subject, show me where I am wrong from the Book of Acts.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
The RCC interpretation of John 6 finds no support in the Book of Acts, exactly where you should be seeing it if it were true. If the RCC interpretation of John 6 is not true, then it is a different Jesus.

So Catholics aren't true Christians?

Haven't heard that one here before...

Don't try to change the subject, show me where I am wrong from the Book of Acts.

Sorry, I don't feel like playing proof-text patty-cake with one of the 'Catholics aren't true Christians' crowd right now.

Posted: 9/15/2014 9:34:42 AM EDT

[#40]

Well, paris dakar, let me explain it to you. Roman Catholics believe this:

...is Jesus Christ, and is worshiped as Jesus Christ. I do NOT believe the wafer is Jesus Christ, and I refuse to worship it. At least one of us is profoundly wrong, and can't be worshiping the true Christ. Can you agree with this conclusion?

Posted: 9/15/2014 9:43:44 AM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:
Well, paris dakar, let me explain it to you. Roman Catholics believe this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/BentoXVI-51-11052007_%28frag%29.jpg

...is Jesus Christ, and is worshiped as Jesus Christ. I do NOT believe the wafer is Jesus Christ, and I refuse to worship it. At least one of us is profoundly wrong, and can't be worshiping the true Christ. Can you agree with this conclusion?

View Quote

Are you really hectoring me with a Wafer Worship meme?

Seriously?

Posted: 9/15/2014 10:14:57 AM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:

never learned anything from twire, that I could not learn from Jesus. But maybe you can answer a question that he would not answer when I asked him in a past thread of his.

Do I need to be a Roman Catholic in order to go to heaven?

View Quote

Its the same answer I posted last time. Maybe you didn't read it. From the CCC...

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture
and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on
earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and
the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the
Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and
Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the
Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they
could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as
necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to
remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault
of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who
nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in
their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of
their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation..

Posted: 9/15/2014 10:21:39 AM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
Don't try to change the subject, show me where I am wrong from the Book of Acts.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

The RCC interpretation of John 6 finds no support in the Book of Acts, exactly where you should be seeing it if it were true. If the RCC interpretation of John 6 is not true, then it is a different Jesus.

So Catholics aren't true Christians?

Haven't heard that one here before...

Don't try to change the subject, show me where I am wrong from the Book of Acts.

So the Scripture is not literal then? Where do you go to church and what is your church's belief in regard to literal translation of scripture?

Oh, and Acts 2:42.

Full JAck Chick in two posts. Impressive progression of thought.

Posted: 9/15/2014 11:11:57 AM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:

Oh, and Acts 2:42.

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Acts 2:42 ¶And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

No Transubstantiation, no worshiping of the Eucharist. Is this the best you can come up with?

Posted: 9/15/2014 12:17:39 PM EDT

[#45]

Nice question dodge.

But in order to actually respond to your question, my understanding is that the phrasing of verse 42 in the greek is articular meaning it refers to specific action/procedures so the reading of it (and many translations bear this out) is more akin to THE teaching of the apostles, THE breaking of the bread, THE prayers, etc; i.e. a specific liturgical celebration. Historically, the nascent Church in adherence to apostolic teaching was undoubtedly Catholic in its worship and belief.

But even more to the point of your argument, you are demanding 'biblical proof' and yet completely deny the veracity of John 6. That seems to be a very muddled and self-serving system of 'proofing' any subject when you simply negate a verse or verses as you see fit.

Posted: 9/15/2014 12:33:07 PM EDT

[#46]

I'm not Catholic, but I absolutely agree with the Catholic Church that Jesus established a church with a defined ecclesiastical organization, priesthood ordination, ordinances, etc.

That doesn't take away from salvation by faith in Christ. The institution of church is not there to replace Christ, but to aid us in our goal of coming to know Christ better and providing us with opportunities to serve and develop our faith in Christ.

Ephesians 4:
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ

Posted: 9/15/2014 1:08:38 PM EDT

[#47]

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never learned anything from twire, that I could not learn from Jesus. But maybe you can answer a question that he would not answer when I asked him in a past thread of his.

Do I need to be a Roman Catholic in order to go to heaven?

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The greatest opponents to the Catholic faith or faith in general usually come from faith. Please note that this is not unique to Catholics. I am in this with my son right now. Being BORN AGAIN.. if you mean re-baptized... doesn't wash away your Catholicism. A faith journey sometimes means walking away but born again?

When I was a catholic the few times I heard the term "Born Again" it was usually referenced to degrade other people or imply that they are wrong in some way.

Imagine my shock when I read the Bible later in life and found out that Jesus said you"MUST" be Born again. John chapter 3.

And the way you asked the question tells me you do not have any idea what it means. But neither did Nicodemus whom Jesus said that to.

If you want to get a better undertanding of that, Dont ask me, Ask Jesus yourself. Read John chapter 3 and hear His words directly.

If any body wants to know what water baptism is for, then why dont they just ask John the baptist? After all John is the man whom God sent. John 1;6

Matthew 3:11 "I baptise with water for repentance." That is what water baptism is for. period! nothing else.

There are a lot of people who baptise infants and say a number of different reasons but they all imply that it makes you a Christian.

Only the Blood of Jesus can wash away the stain of original sin. Make you a child of God, and regenerate sinfull man.

John never said water baptism was for anything else but repentance . And anyone who baptises infants and says that original sin is washed away or this baby is now a Christian or any other reason is denying the cross of Christ.

if what they say is true then God would only have had to send John the Baptist. Christ died for nothing.

It is scriptural for people whom have come to beleive that Jesus is Lord and accept Him for who he said He was to get water baptised after they recieved Him, and then repent of sin.

Did my catholicism get washed away? I guess it did, I am no longer one.

I celebrate your faith journey. But there is some things you didn't understand. Catholics recognize the baptism of other faiths. The Body and Blood of Christ are central to our faith, they are central to the mass and we believe. We believe that Jesus is the Lord the Son of God and that is also central to our faith.

Catholic doesn't wash off BECAUSE you are already baptized. I think I would feel the same as you had I not moved to the South. I paid attention in class but the move here where I constantly have to defend my belief, made me learn about why I believe. Had I stayed north I fear I would have missed the richness of what we have. Twire is offering you a gift. He shows the absolute biblical and fundamental nature of the Catholic faith.

never learned anything from twire, that I could not learn from Jesus. But maybe you can answer a question that he would not answer when I asked him in a past thread of his.

Do I need to be a Roman Catholic in order to go to heaven?

So in these few words you have acknowledged that what twire states is true and you know it to be true since it is from the bible. The answer to your question depends on the in human attempt to interpret the passage from John 6:26 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 pDo not labor for the food which perishes, but qfor the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.” Further on I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and
he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you
have seen Me and yet do not believe. ... And this is the will of Him who
sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have
everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day"" (John 6:34-36, 40). Notice how partaking of bread Jesus is offering is equated to believing in him. "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats
of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is
My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." The Jews
therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us
His flesh to eat?" Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to
you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you
have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has
eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is
food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and
drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent
Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live
because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as
your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will
live forever."" (John 6:51-58).

The theme doesn't change through out the new testament. NOTE: It did not say.. pretend to eat my flesh. He also didn't say " Take this bread and pretend it my flesh. After he blessed it clearly it says THIS IS MY FLESH, and the same with the wine. Eucharist through transubstantiation is exactly what Christ called for FUNDAMENTALLY in all ways.

To ask the question will non Catholics make it into to heaven is a daringly bold one. Bold because I am not your divine judge. The apostles were Jews. The thief on the cross.. because of his faith was granted paradise... BY GOD .. just wanted to point that out. The gentile woman's request to heal her servants daughter was granted. Will all Catholics make it into heaven? I have no idea. Who on this earth can dare claim they know the mind of God or pretend that they can sit in judgement of anyone on earth.

Since you are probably quite younger than I am...I absolutely know where this came from: Lumen
gentium Dogmatic Constitution Vatican II and subsequently was discussed at length in the 1990's in John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Redemptoris
missio, 1: AAS 83 (1991), 249-340. and Dominus Iesus. Vatican II is the MOST misinterpreted document in the history of the church. Good gosh people got hold of that put their own spin on things propagating several generations of misinformed people. In FACT, the document clearly states the universal nature of the BODY of Christ as children of God. Sadly it caused things like when I was a child, I remember walking with my mother who used to make us cross the street if we had to pass before the door of a church that was not Catholic. In her mind she was being obedient to the her faith.

That didn't help the cause for truly understanding the mission of the church. (anymore that her insistence of spitting on a hanky and using her nail to remove skin and imaginary dirt on our faces before we could enter church or her gouging a bobby pin through the used hanky to pin on my head since I had a horrible propensity to loose my chapel veil every Sunday. I am a hat hater to this day) God couldn't care less about my hair... I promise or he wouldn't have made bald guys. ( I have stories)

In reality it took as scholar like John Paul II in Dominus Iesus to correct the misinterpretations of many of the Vatican II documents. Dominus Iesus clearly states that Jesus Christ is the way to heaven. Only Jesus.
We state that firmly in all we do and this is one thing about which we
will not compromise or change! Salvation is a gift that comes from God through the
words and actions of Jesus. Look at your Bible. In the Gospel of John
16:6, Jesus says, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes
unto the Father except through me.”

So, does that mean
non-Catholics go to hell? Or people who do not believe in Jesus? We don't make that assumption but let me tell you fundamentalist push that on us all day long! Take a look at Catechism of the Catholic Church, sections
836-848. There, the Church clearly breaks down its attitude toward
"non-Christians.” We believe that our worship of Jesus on the cross, living for him and imitating him is the way to salvation.

2. Christians do this and are connected through our loving God to the rest of his children who love God, but don’t know Jesus.

3. These two realities combine to offer salvation to the whole world.

Not my interpretation by the way.

So back to the question that can't be answered except by you and God the Father on Judgement day. I can't tell you who will make into heaven or who won't. It's above my pay grade and very humble station in this life as

"servant" of God.

Twire... forgive me for the hi-jack. Should take further discussion of this AGAIN to a new thread.

Posted: 9/15/2014 1:09:17 PM EDT

[#48]

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Well, paris dakar, let me explain it to you. Roman Catholics believe this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/BentoXVI-51-11052007_%28frag%29.jpg

...is Jesus Christ, and is worshiped as Jesus Christ. I do NOT believe the wafer is Jesus Christ, and I refuse to worship it. At least one of us is profoundly wrong, and can't be worshiping the true Christ. Can you agree with this conclusion?

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You do not understand what you are seeing or saying. However the use of this very sacred moment in my faith as fodder for your comment is massively offensive to me.

Posted: 9/15/2014 1:59:48 PM EDT

[#49]

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You do not understand what you are seeing or saying. However the use of this very sacred moment in my faith as fodder for your comment is massively offensive to me.

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Quoted:
Well, paris dakar, let me explain it to you. Roman Catholics believe this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/BentoXVI-51-11052007_%28frag%29.jpg

...is Jesus Christ, and is worshiped as Jesus Christ. I do NOT believe the wafer is Jesus Christ, and I refuse to worship it. At least one of us is profoundly wrong, and can't be worshiping the true Christ. Can you agree with this conclusion?

You do not understand what you are seeing or saying. However the use of this very sacred moment in my faith as fodder for your comment is massively offensive to me.

What? Do you not even understand your own church's beliefs? Tell me exactly what I said that offended you.

Posted: 9/15/2014 2:00:56 PM EDT

[#50]

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You do not understand what you are seeing or saying. However the use of this very sacred moment in my faith as fodder for your comment is massively offensive to me.

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Quoted: Well, paris dakar, let me explain it to you. Roman Catholics believe this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/BentoXVI-51-11052007_%28frag%29.jpg

...is Jesus Christ, and is worshiped as Jesus Christ. I do NOT believe the wafer is Jesus Christ, and I refuse to worship it. At least one of us is profoundly wrong, and can't be worshiping the true Christ. Can you agree with this conclusion?

You do not understand what you are seeing or saying. However the use of this very sacred moment in my faith as fodder for your comment is massively offensive to me.

Wait a sec. This is ARFCOM. Comments massively offensive to Muslims occur more than once a minute here. And a picture of a Roman Catholic rite as illustration for a theological question is massively offensive?

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