Many varieties of Protestants also reject the doctrine of Free Will in favor of their deterministic Predestination/Assurance model.

This post ought to be stickied as a perfect example of the "I" or "Me" hermeneutic.  The faith and Bible are about "Me", about what "I" feel comfortable with.  Indeed, the word comfort has become well-established in the lexicon of modern Protestants as they "shop" for "churches"where they feel "comfortable" with the teaching.

While we are saved as individuals we are not saved unto ourselves but unto a body.

I chuckled at your choice of words in using "Magesterium" because you by the context of your use make clear you have no idea what it means. Admittedly it is one of those "big words" used by the Catholic Church that requires a moment with the dictionary to understand.

As far as interpretation of Scripture is concerned, you will have to take up your disagreement with God since it is in Scripture itself that we are admonished not to simply interpret individually. You see, there is a very real and concrete reason why the Church is granted authority to interpret Scripture and indeed why He gave us His incarnational Body in the Church herself.

A good example is the Church teaching on artificial contraception.  Here we have where the "rubber hits the road" so-to-speak, pun intended.  Church doctrine has always maintained that the sex act is not just an act of giving or receiving pleasure, but is also at its core an act of life-giving.  It can in fact never be separated from that great creative act.  This teaching was held from the beginning and indeed, all the way thru the Reformation as it was one of the doctrines none of the schismatics broke with. Until the prevailing culture said otherwise.   While Calvin, Luther and later even John Wesley condemned contraception as evil, "fun" took the precedence over righteousness and starting with the Anglican "Church" {the denomination quite literally founded on murder, divorce and theft} but then expanding to all Protesting groups, it is now seen as a "good", indeed, by many as a moral necessity.  So what was condemned by the founders of "protestantism" is now praised.  Why?  Because Protestantism has rejected Christ's authority.  As a mass movement it has denied His ACTUAL ability to establish an incarnational Body, the Body of His Church, in the world.  

I've often listened to Protestants who point to the ex-Catholics among them who rant against the Church and who serve as "proof" that the Catholic Church is "wrong".  Indeed...so the Catholic Church bleeds "members" who flee the truth and the hard teachings of Christ on this and other issues, like divorce, and run to the "safety" of their own easy-listening interpretation of "Scripture" {in quotes as it is the truncated version, the version left after the Protestant editor's scissors got done with it}.  Just as many left Christ following His hard teaching in St John Chapter 6.

While following Christ is a life of cost and sacrifice, a true bearing of each others burdens and the Cross itself, Protestantism is just plumb easy.  It is "successful", too, wildly so in winning "converts" because it gives the impression of true religion but without the substance of it.  It makes eternity but a simple "decision" against the entire body of Scripture that teaches otherwise, that true faith includes obedience and action.

This whole culture of "protesting" can be seen in high relief now as Protestantism continues to fragment into ever-smaller schisms.

There is an alternative and that alternative is the Church founded by Christ.  The only Church that can trace its lineage all the way to the teachings of Christ, all the way to the Upper Room.  That is the Catholic Church.

 

Holy cow. Talk about not having a clue...

Just...... Wow.

What you don't understand is that I am no Protestant. I protest nothing about the Roman Catholic church. The scriptures deny that the Roman Catholic church is or ever was the body of Christ. The Catholic church is the continuation of a late 1st century apostasy prophesied by Paul in 2nd Thessalonians and the bishop of Rome is the man of lawlessness and the son of destruction described there. That apostasy is prophesied to continue until Christ returns. Jesus is the exclusive head of God's church, and that church has persisted since it's establishment on the day of Pentecost. I am a member of that church and a follower of Christ, apart from any teaching devised or version of history manufactured by men in Rome.

I understand these are considered heresies to the Catholic church and I can think of no more apt title for me than that of heretic as it pertains to the apostate Roman church.

Edited for heresy.

Okay read everything.  I still believe the church Jesus referred to is the body of his believers. Everywhere. At all times. We are his body....

Very subdued muffled golf clap faintly heard from the back nine....................clap,clap,clap,clap,clap,clap,clap....................with sounds of a Cessna flying somewhere over head........

Sorry should I have said more?

Irony and circular reasoning. Well worth price of admission.





the son of perdition has spoken!

I score this 8 out of 10

Needs a Death Cookie/Wafer Worship reference for the full 10 Chick Points.  

The followers of our Messiah are called "the Way".

Act 9:1 Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest,
Act 9:2 and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
Act 19:8 And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
Act 19:9 But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
Act 19:22 And having sent into Macedonia two of those who ministered to him, Timothy and Erastus, he himself stayed in Asia for a while.
Act 19:23 About that time there occurred no small disturbance concerning the Way.
Act 22:4 “I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons,  
Act 24:14 “But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;
Act 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Act 24:22 But Felix, having a more exact knowledge about the Way, put them off, saying, “When Lysias the commander comes down, I will decide your case.”

The Church, improperly translated from the Greek ekklesia, which is the same word translated to Assembly in Exodus, has been around from the beginning.

"Full-Chick".  "Finally".  Indeed!

I wish we lived closer.  LOL.

Hurrah!!

All wonderful Scriptures that yet again affirm the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Ya'know, the Way.

Those denying such are, well, you know, outta the way...

LOL.

I revised it down for omitting a Wafer Worship reference.

It is funny how they can't help themselves.  Every time.

Head shot.

Excellent post.

I'm sorry, but the Catholic Church is nowhere to be found in Scripture. If they were, in fact. the Way, they would follow the Way of our Messiah, instead of the way of pagans like Constantine, and traditions of men.

This one gets an "11" for entertainment value on this thread.

It's not that they are ignorant. It's just that they "know" so much that isn't so....

How very sad...

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

I'm afraid it is so.

In my Scripture reading for today I read among others St John Chapter 9.

To read Scripture is one thing.  To ignore its meaning is another.

Verse 41.

It is starting to cook now, the Fundamentalists trying to out-Chick one another.

Keep it up guys!  I still think there are a few more canards you can throw up!

Just to be clear, by this statement are we to assume that you believe Catholics are 'unrighteous' and 'damned' for 'believing a lie'?  

Nope. Only those without a love of the truth.

No, you did fine.
Trying to be some what of a more gentler and kinder proponent  here.
Getting older I guess.
Been listening to this sort of stuff for a long time now.
Sad really.

Wow. We're damned for being Catholic.

And then they say we're the exclusionary ones.

Quite.

Where did I say that? I quoted scripture that reflected your sentiment.

Canardrals?

The name of my High Priest is Yeshua, and the only One I call Father is our Father in Heaven.

So what did you call your dad growing up?

C'mon, don't take the verse out of context. Can't really use 'teacher' or 'mister' either.



 

Brothers and sisters this is (in my opinion) the best and most Christian post in the thread.

We would all do well to re-read Paul's 1st letter to the Corinthians.

Amen!

Yes but "they" won't believe this statement because, well you know them being "the" church and all. I don't have anything against catholics but them believing that and I forgive them for it. I do like talking with them, JW, Mormons, and moslems to get a different take on things.

Study Scripture;  over-and-over/cover-to-cover.  Not just selected texts from the writings of St Paul...

Read the history of our faith;  What did the first Christians from the times of the writings of the first books of the New Testament say?

And as the thread identifies, reflect on the structures built in the early years after Christ's ascension and see.

Is it "Protestantism" or "Catholicism" that is reflected?

One must wait 1500 years to find the semblance of Protestant worship and theology anywhere, except for a few classic early heresies.

And yet the denial of the ancient faith continues.

The church I believe in and made reference to started when Jesus being Lord and Christ was revealed in full [3rd day] and people began to truly follow. Those are the believers that make up the body of Christ. Even Nicodemus in all his education and position of power in the Sanhedrin was drawn away from that to the gospel of Jesus.  The man named Saul that had studied his whole life in the temple and knew every letter of their law had to yield to my Jesus on the road to Damascus and become Paul to the very men that were against Jesus.

I've read the Bible, surrendered my heart to Jesus, and have gone through awesome transformations of every area of my person by the Holy Spirit. I don't judge other people for how they worship or wet her or not they are going to heaven.  God will decide those matters. I'm more if a John 3:16 kind of guy I guess.

No offense but calling me names and looking down your nose at my position on faith is a waste of time.  [Edit referring to TWIRE on last page]

The catholic church is the only true church according to catholic written history, the catholic interpretation of scripture and catholic traditions. So therefore it must be the true church because, you know, they said so.

The one true church, from the same people that brought you the Dark Ages.

IF the catholic church is legitimate it lost it with it's institutionalized policy of protecting pedophile clergy. I'll overlook all of the corruption of the past but modern day institutionalized corruption is too much to stomach. I mean even Jimmy Swaggart had to step down.

The absolute dearth of knowledge about history is embarrassing, but what do you expect from ignorance and bigotry?  Anyone care to investigate the actual accomplishments of the Church during the so-called "Dark Ages"?  Do a simple internet study {or use the old Encyclopedia Britannica!} for the scientific, political and cultural accomplishments of Churchmen with the support of the Church thru the post-Roman Empire collapse to modern times.  Again, this isn't difficult stuff.

The ludicrous argument that the church fostered all sorts of evils thruout the world before the Reformation is a good one, tho, since for 1500 years there were no Protestants around to either achieve or ruin anything!  Novelty has to have a start sometime!  LOL.

As for the tragedy of sex abuse, Billy Graham's grandson says Evangelicals are worse.  Why he says that exactly and how he would know, I am not certain.

This issue has been hashed about so much that the facts are not obscure and neither are they difficult to find. Obviously highlighter hasn't bothered to look.

highlighter, start w/ the John Jay study.  When you are finished there, let me know and I'll be glad to give you some more information so you don't have to act the buffoon any further.

The issue itself is of course a well worn one for Protestants who are bankrupt as to Scriptural and historical arguments against the Church of Christ.  Bigotry is like that. I was one once myself, and used the same method.

Buffoon? You lose.

Didn't you know? If your argument isn't strong enough you can just attack your opponent. It totally strengthens your position. The catholic church says so. Totally worked during the Inquisition.

Check!

This is not only a crock, but it has been wrought on by your own personal arrogance and attacks which is another crock!
You err unwisely because you speak unwisely. You only know here what you choose to know by an indoctrination process and that will be your eventual portion in the kingdom of God, by His Law, Statutes, and Precepts, which have no standing place of truth or honor according to anything which you have posted above.
Your premises, and bad ones by the way as I see them, have not been accomplished by the Holy Spirit of God as if they were meant to judge by. They are not an argument or a debate and not meant to be, but, merely an attempt IMHO to cover up the truth, and that truth being personal in the first place and is not about what your church organization has done, or hasn't done, but more about your own personal conduct concerning what it is that you personally attempted to do through your own personally wrought maliciousness and deceitful action that you have obviously set out in an attempt to defame and thus control here!

And that would be Christians who are acting by faith and witnessing Jesus Christ, which is of God, and through the Holy Spirit of God, who are operating in God's truth of what the Spirit has to say to all of the churches and subsequently all of the people of them. And yes the Catholics have one listed in the Book of Revelation too!
Wanna know which one it is there Chief? I'll bet a smart man like you could find it. You know, with all of that history and scriptures and all of the other stuff that you know.

And Scripturally and Biblically speaking here also, and from the word of the Almighty God, you do not have the right to judge anyone here in any event or in the pseudo capacity in which you are inaccurately attempting to suppress; which by the way is the truth!
Now jam that up in the ornate and stinking pipe of self-righteousness which is loosely hanging from those perfect jaws of yours, and I'm sure one of the brothers here might run and go get you a light, that being, if one of us hustles up right quick about it for your edification only!

Scriptural and historical arguments huh?
Are you actually serious guy?

Tell that to Oliver Cromwell...



What hurts me the most here is not the disagreement, as that fosters study and reflection, leading to better understanding.

No, what bothers me is the attacks on the RCC that are founded on abject falsehoods and selective Scripture reading (when they don't just throw out entire inconvenient books).

We in the RCC have been called Papists, idolators, pagans, and polytheists. We have been accused of re-crucifying Christ at every mass. We have been accused of silencing science and of decorating our churches and buildings with Satanic art. The RCC has been called Babylon, etc.

NONE of that is even remotely true. One of the primary reasons I left Protestantism/Fundamentalism was because of attacks like that. I KNEW they were wrong because I had been raised a Catholic. Later, as I studied, not only was my position confirmed, but so many other things our Christian brethren love to spew about the RCC was also debunked, and shown to be based in Scripture after all.

The number one foolishness I hear is their ideas on the Pope. Never has one position been so totally miss characterized by a group of people who don't even realize they are following a POLITICAL debate from centuries past.

Whatever. You guys believe what you want. No one can ever convince you that you are mistaken because you are so blinded by lies that have been preached for centuries.

I get such a chuckle when I get called an idolator. That one really takes the cake...

Tell that to Jesus Christ the Son of the living God!

And what will that do?

NEWSFLASH, brother....  WE WORSHIP THE SAME GUY.

I know you want to believe that we really worship the guy in Rome with the little beenie, but you're WRONG.

And don't even try to sling that Inquisition BS, either. First off, the Inquisition was largely political, not religious, and the Church didn't execute anyone, the state did. Go look it up. It's another one of those convenient lies that live on.

And don't think that Protestantism is as pure as Christ, either. The wars fought over this garbage saw horrid acts on both sides. We at least have admitted ours...

"Prepare thy Inquisitor!"