I am curious about the effectiveness of each groups proselytizing.

What do you think the percentage of people who join those churches due to proselytizing is versus those who marry someone of that faith?

I suppose they do make some converts but the real point is to strengthen the faith of the missionaries....nothing helps cement someone in whatever ideology or belief quite like 'going pubic' with it. It's why gays insist on 'coming out' - it's why other groups insist on big rallies and altar calls.... going public with anything (like weddings) has a way of confirming someone in a given belief system and way of life. It establishes boundaries of 'us' and them.

The JWs and Mormons I've spoken with typically have a veteran matched with a novice. I direct my discussion to the veteran. There's a reason they never visit more than once. and it's not because I'm unpleasant. I'm very friendly and pleasant. But I'm also loaded for 'bear' but in a Socratic, not a machinegun scripture proof texting sort of way.

Our Lord always dealt with people on the level of whatever it was they believed in....so with the Greeks he spoke of metaphysics (unless a seed fall to the earth and dies, it remains just a seed). With Sadduccees he spoke only from the Torah (God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He's the God of the living, not the dead as all are alive to him...). With Pharisees he quoted the Prophets. With Romans he spoke in terms of authority and truth. With pagans he spoke from Natural Law.

So when dealing with JWs or Mormons you can't very well quote Popes and saints - as they don't accept their testimony. But you can quote their own texts and point out some natural law or philosophy 101 paradoxes or dilemmas. In my opinion the point is not to argue but to talk things through. It's not to "win" but to plant seeds and to open a bridge head - be friendly because if they harbor doubts about their faith you might be the only friendly support they have. Jumping ship is terrifying.

Incidentally, with Protestants, a Catholic should talk 'solar scritura'. I don't need to invoke Popes or councils to defend elements of the creed or the Papacy. It's OK if we just keep things on 'sola scritura'. There's more Catholic praxis in the Acts of the Apostles than there is a Proto-protestant praxis. But again, the point is not to 'win' at all costs, it's to help remove intellectual obstacles and offer a safe emotional place for people to be if they have doubts.

With secular hedonists (who assume they're intellectually and morally superior to Christians) sometimes it's important to pop their bubble but again, their real issue is not intellectual but emotional...so the point is to show a gentleness and kindness were they expect (and tell themselves) to find only harsh, blind ignorance and maliciousness. When they discover their stereotypes are not accurate they'll begin questioning their other presumptions.

When I talk with people from the "progressive" or LGBTQ side of things I never quote scripture or Popes. I quote the APA and the CDC. I invoke their own experience in OTHER fields of interpersonal conflict and controversy. For example, it's common to say "friends don't let friends drive drunk" or "friends don't encourage friends to smoke cigarettes". Telling a friend to not drive or not smoke is not a hateful act coming from an irrational position of kill-joy-ism. But it's not pleasant to be told not to exercise one's rights of property ownership and free movement....or to exercise one's right to buy a legal product. It's not pleasant....but the intent is not cruel. It is in fact possible to be unpleasant and yet friendly. Irrational hatred is not the only motive for controversy and disputes.... and most "progressives" or gays will readily admit that in every OTHER controversial area of life....so why is it their go-to argument that controversy over sexuality MUST come from an irrational and hateful place? Get them to actually pay attention to motives and possibilities and the heat goes right out of the room.

The goal is to love and seek the truth...not win an argument at all costs.

Your post reminds me of reading C.S.Lewis, it makes perfect sense but it hurts my teeny little mind lol...very well said.

My experience is that the percentage of new LDS Church members who are baptized because of a marriage situation is fairly low. It is not uncommon though.

Here is the purpose of missionary work:

"Invite others to come unto Christ by helping them receive the restored gospel through faith in Jesus Christ and His Atonement, repentance, baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end."

Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service, (2004), 1–16
Preach My Gospel

I was just genuinely curious about numbers I figured it would be hard to nail down a real numbers but arfcom is pretty sharp.

I'm sure the LDS has their own statistics arm, but here is the Catholic Church's raw numbers (ask oh ARFCOM and ye shall receive).

http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html

You will note down in the column that Marriage and baptisms are half of what they were 50 years ago.... while over all numbers have almost doubled. Mass attendance rates are down 50% from 55% to 24% (although here in S.Georgia Catholics attend at a rate of roughly 40%). There are alot of things going on simultaneously with the numbers. Generally the Church is declining in the North East and growing in the South and West. Immigration is not the whole story - a lot of people return to the faith after leaving for awhile.

Globally the number of Catholics has doubled since 1970 and the total number of priests still hovers around 414,000 men. 38,000 of them live in the USA. So while we are a big country, and Catholics are the single largest Church in the USA, (and biggest in the world), the vast majority of Catholics live in the 3rd and developing world. The stories of our demise - like the demise of the Tea Party and Al Qaeda and other groups is exaggerated. We're always struggling, one foot in the grave, a pogrom or bloody persecution is going on somewhere at all times but by and large we're still in the game.

Now for our LDS friends to take note, there are movements afoot to copy the door to door methodology domestically - within the next 5 years alot of people may get a knock on their door by Catholic lay missionaries.... imagine that! Now, not to be triumphalist - I fully expect a bloody persecution against Catholics (and other Christians) to erupt somewhere in the USA before long too. We haven't had one since 1848 so that means we're overdue for one. and yet, since we are our own worst enemies, there's nothing quite like a persecution to focus a peoples' minds on what's important and what's just fluff.

It's not to down play persecution - the Mormons have an indelible mark still left from their suffering so imagine what is happening to Chinese, Vietnamese, Mexican, Cuban, Korean, Filipino, Iraqi, and African Catholics - all of whom are suffering from bloody persecutions these days. Those folk bring something to the faith that is incalculable. Growing numbers of Indian, Africans and Asian priestly missionaries are coming to the USA... they're having an impact.

Well

Oh, also here's this site http://usreligionstatistics.info/

C.S. Lewis is a frequently quoted person in LDS meetings.

According to the statistical report for 2013, there were 282,945 'convert' baptisms and 115,486 baptisms of LDS children reaching the age of 8.  They don't try to identify who became a convert after getting married vs those who met the missionaries other ways.  All new converts meet with the missionaries first before baptism.

Any religion that makes it complicated to reach heaven (celestial equivalent) should be suspect.  I have been saved by faith and grace ALONE.  No work or act of repentance will get me there, only the work of Jesus's perfect atonement and my love of Jesus will do it!  The Bible clearly says it this simply, any gospel otherwise is false.

D.

Ooops! Are you here trolling? I don't see where your comments answer a question. "Faith, without works, is dead".

You need to understand James and the context it was written and to whom it is addressed - men. Our works are a manifestation of our faith. Men who cannot see the heart that God can see are left only to judge me by my works.  Fortunately for all of us God sees our hearts, but our works are like dirty rags.

D.

[yawn]
One shouldn't feed trolls.

Hmmm...., You quickly resorted to name calling, I honestly expected better. Guess my work with you might be done....   Matt 5:12

D.

I guess whatever you want to tell yourself to justify living whatever type of life you want and expect you will still be saved.  

If you look at the entirety of the Bible's teaching,  it is pretty clear that one must live a good life if they expect to return to Father.  Not just say a few words.  


According to Christ, "doing" or works seem to be pretty important.


"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Nailed it. Matthew 7:21 is one of the most chilling verses in the Bible.

Verses 22-23 as well.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Faith is where belief in Christ and action come together.  Either by itself would fail to achieve blessings.  Could you imagine someone telling Jesus that they love him while in open rebellion against his commandments?

Thank heavens for the gift and blessing of repentance, though, because obviously we all fall short.  Then again, repentance is an example of applying faith.

In my experience door to door proselytizing was the least effective way of finding people that were baptized in the end. It's different in other countries but here in the US people don't like people knocking on their door. The LDS church is always looking for more effective means such as mormon.org. It wasn't that long ago I was one of those missionaries sweating to death in Georgia, we were told that knocking doors would become "archaic" in the US at some point in the near future.

No doubt.

My wife is a former JW. Her mother has been practicing for 28 years and has one, count them one, conversation.

Edited.  ~ medicmandan

I and anyone else should rightly question someone living in open rebellion to God, no matter what they said or thought. This makes my point exactly, our works as they appear outwardly to men are a manifestation of our faith, or lack thereof, but our behavior, not to be confused with our love of Jesus, is not what saves us.  An example is my marriage covenant to my wife, you could never trust me to be truly in love with her if I was known to unremorsefully and continually cheat on her. Its our true love and surrendering to only his perfect atonement that will get me, dare I say, to celestial heaven or the equivalent thereof.

D.

Sounds like a distinction without a difference.  If you love God, are you going to do your best to keep his commandments?  If so, then what is the argument about?  Nobody is arguing that faith in Christ isn't what saves us.  It just so happens that if we have faith then we're going to try and do those things Jesus has asked of us.

Our works also include more then what the world or other people see.  It is our private works that we do when no one else is watching that shows our true faith or lack of it.  Baptism and lip confession alone are not enough to save someone, if they refuse to repent and utilize Christ's atonement.   To believe otherwise would show a believe that God is unjust.  

Say you have two people that both confess they accept Christ, and are baptized. One lives the remainder of his life sinning, while the other lives righteously and strives to repent continuously.   Would it be just to give them the same reward?  That is where mercy through Christ comes in the one who repents, and lives God's laws, will be shown mercy and will not be punished for the sins he committed.   The sinner who did not repent, will not benefit from the atonement,  and must pay for his own sins. Thus God is both just and merciful.

I agree with your idea that the desire and action to obey comes out of placing your faith in Jesus. The difference is if you believe the other way around, that you have been saved as a result of works.

D.

When did I ever say you are saved as a result of your works?  One is only saved through Christ.  No matter who we are, we will all sin and fall short of where we need to be,  as long as we are doing our best striving to be perfect, even as He and Father are perfect(Matthew 5:48),  by repenting and being baptized, then Christ will make up the difference for our sins, and allow us to return.  Without Christ, even if we did all good works our  whole life with only 1 sin,  we would still be damned.  Our works don't save us, but if they are not good,  we will be judged for them if we don't repent and forsake the bad.

"You believe..."

Create the straw-man, then cut-down the straw-man... I can't tell you how many times when I have dealt with antagonists to the Latter-Day Church of Jesus Christ I have heard "You believe..." And it isn't something I believe...

It comes down to the same arguments at the early councils... The Greek "Christians" disagreed with the Jewish "Christians" on many points of doctrine, and you can read the early councils to see that the Greeks were outnumbered, but more politically connected...

I have never heard that LDS folks are saved by their works... Every meeting I have been in. On my mission... Never heard it.

Yeah, like Christ we need to be baptized, and worship in the Temple... As Christ did... But it is by faith we are saved...

LDS doctrine absolutely doesn't teach that year are saved by your works because we couldn't do enough in this life to save ourselves, no one can.  We absolutely teach that ye are saved by grace.  I invite you to watch this short clip by one of our general authorities just take a minute and watch as he can explain it much better than I.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e-rHvMZTR0c

Excellent post.

"Are you saved by grace?"

Are *you* changed by grace..."

Yea, I get that all the time too.  

Someone telling me what "the Mormon scriptures" say and what Mormons believe.  They usually cower away when I tell them I will denounce my faith if they can show me where it says that in the scriptures.  It's always something they heard from someone or read about in some pamphlet once.  If they actually took the time to do some actual research from the proper sources, they wouldn't look so ignorant.

Do statements made by a General Authority reflect doctrine, or do they become doctrine?

I've heard 'saved by grace' through faith, but isn't the actual change of behavior a function of the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:3-7)?