 T1NMAN 
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Posted: 8/6/2012 2:03:27 PM
[Last Edit: 8/6/2012 2:04:41 PM by T1NMAN]
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT Pastor Colin Smith The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him "Immanuel," which means God with us. Matthew 1:23 Who is Immanuel? What does the Bible mean when it says that Jesus Christ is God with us? Properly understood, Matthew's statement is utterly offensive in our culture today. The central claim of Christianity is that the same God who made Himself known in the Old Testament has come to us in Jesus Christ. The Old Testament tells us that there is one God. He cannot be known by reason or philosophy. He cannot be worked out by science or astronomy. But He has made himself known to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses. He has made a special covenant with one nation-the Jews-and through them He wants all people to know Him. This God is the Creator of all things. He gives life and breath to all people. This means that all people are accountable to Him-whether or not they know Him, believe in Him, or choose to obey Him. This is the teaching of the Old Testament. All idols are imposters: Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood, who pray to gods that cannot save... There is no God apart from me... Isaiah 44:20-21 As far as the Old Testament is concerned, what we might call the history of religions is really the history of idolatry. Idolatry is when a man or a woman invents a god for him or herself. This can be done by carving wood or stone. It can be done by writing a book or launching a seminar. Idolatry is any kind of teaching that presents God in a way that is different from who He really is. A great teacher once said that the human mind is a "factory of idols." We're always coming up with new ways to think about God. The Old Testament tells us about the nations of the world who worship different gods, mentioning many of them by name: Bel, Nebo, Marduk, Dagon, Baal and Molech. The Old Testament doesn't say "Well, these are all really different ways of referring to the same thing." The Old Testament says "There is one Creator-God. He has made himself known to Moses. All the others are idols. They are not gods at all. They are products of history and culture. They live only in the minds of those who believe in them. They die with the passing of the cultures that produced them." The Real Thing: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him "Immanuel," which means God with us. Matthew 1:23 Matthew is talking about the God of the Old Testament, the living eternal God, the One and Only God, the God who gives life and breath to all men. All the other gods are imposters. This God came to be with us in the person of a tiny child whose name was Jesus. This claim-God is with us-is at the center of the Christian faith. If Jesus is not God, then we do not know God, because the central claim of Christianity is that in coming to Jesus Christ you are coming to God. If Jesus is not God, then we cannot be sure of our final salvation. Our hope of salvation rests on the fact that Jesus has been exalted to the highest place in the universe, and that all authority has been given to Him. This is our confidence that He is able to fulfill all His purposes and deliver on all His promises. If Jesus is not God with us, Christianity makes no sense, and it deserves to be discarded. But the central claim of Christianity is that Jesus is God with us! It would be easier to fit in if we could say, "There are many great teachers in history, and we think Jesus has much to offer. We are all brought up in our traditions, and the important thing is to follow the light you have and live a genuinely good life." But we can't do that. Our calling is to proclaim Him! Jesus said, "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." If you proclaim Christ, the world will call you arrogant, intolerant, narrow-minded, and bigoted. Are you ready to be associated with the offense? |
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Posted: 8/6/2012 3:03:12 PM
the world will call you arrogant, intolerant, narrow-minded, and bigoted. Are you ready to be associated with the offense?
Yep..par for the course so far.  |
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ghengiskhabb
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Posted: 8/6/2012 5:37:22 PM
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
The Real Thing: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him "Immanuel," which means God with us. Matthew 1:23 Matthew is talking about the God of the Old Testament, the living eternal God, the One and Only God, the God who gives life and breath to all men. All the other gods are imposters. This God came to be with us in the person of a tiny child whose name was Jesus. This claim-God is with us-is at the center of the Christian faith. If Jesus is not God, then we do not know God, because the central claim of Christianity is that in coming to Jesus Christ you are coming to God. If Jesus is not God, then we cannot be sure of our final salvation. Our hope of salvation rests on the fact that Jesus has been exalted to the highest place in the universe, and that all authority has been given to Him. This is our confidence that He is able to fulfill all His purposes and deliver on all His promises. If Jesus is not God with us, Christianity makes no sense, and it deserves to be discarded. But the central claim of Christianity is that Jesus is God with us! It would be easier to fit in if we could say, "There are many great teachers in history, and we think Jesus has much to offer. We are all brought up in our traditions, and the important thing is to follow the light you have and live a genuinely good life." But we can't do that. Our calling is to proclaim Him! Jesus said, "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." If you proclaim Christ, the world will call you arrogant, intolerant, narrow-minded, and bigoted. Are you ready to be associated with the offense? Pastor Colin Smith needs to read his bible a little more and start by reading Isaiah 7. Matthew 1:23 is quoting Isaiah 7:14. Isaiah was prophecying to king Ahaz (roughly 730 BC) that a child would be born as a sign that the two enemy kings he feared (described 7:1) would not be successful in their campaign against Jerusalem. This would all happen before the child knows right and wrong (Is 7:16). Rezin and Pekah (the two kings) failed in their attack against Jerusalem (2 Kings 16:5-9). Presumably the child named "Immanuel" would have learned right and wrong sometime soon after the kings failed. In contrast, Jesus, born roughly 700 years later and long after the two kings failed, was named "Jesus" and not "Immanuel". Matthew's point was that Jesus was not the literal child described in Isaiah 7, but a type of the child in Isaiah 7. Matthew's entire book is littered with this style of typological expostion, for instance Matthew 2:15 where he links the return of Jesus from Egypt to Palestine following the murder attempts by Herod. He quotes Hosea 11:1 ("out of Egypt have I called my Son") when a basic reading of Hosea 11:1 reveals that it is about the Exodus. Holy cow, how did this guy become a pastor? If he's the teacher, how bad must his flock be? |
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Posted: 8/6/2012 8:31:11 PM
[Last Edit: 8/6/2012 8:54:54 PM by T1NMAN]
Originally Posted By ghengiskhabb:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
The Real Thing: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him "Immanuel," which means God with us. Matthew 1:23 Matthew is talking about the God of the Old Testament, the living eternal God, the One and Only God, the God who gives life and breath to all men. All the other gods are imposters. This God came to be with us in the person of a tiny child whose name was Jesus. This claim-God is with us-is at the center of the Christian faith. If Jesus is not God, then we do not know God, because the central claim of Christianity is that in coming to Jesus Christ you are coming to God. If Jesus is not God, then we cannot be sure of our final salvation. Our hope of salvation rests on the fact that Jesus has been exalted to the highest place in the universe, and that all authority has been given to Him. This is our confidence that He is able to fulfill all His purposes and deliver on all His promises. If Jesus is not God with us, Christianity makes no sense, and it deserves to be discarded. But the central claim of Christianity is that Jesus is God with us! It would be easier to fit in if we could say, "There are many great teachers in history, and we think Jesus has much to offer. We are all brought up in our traditions, and the important thing is to follow the light you have and live a genuinely good life." But we can't do that. Our calling is to proclaim Him! Jesus said, "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." If you proclaim Christ, the world will call you arrogant, intolerant, narrow-minded, and bigoted. Are you ready to be associated with the offense? Pastor Colin Smith needs to read his bible a little more and start by reading Isaiah 7. Matthew 1:23 is quoting Isaiah 7:14. Isaiah was prophecying to king Ahaz (roughly 730 BC) that a child would be born as a sign that the two enemy kings he feared (described 7:1) would not be successful in their campaign against Jerusalem. This would all happen before the child knows right and wrong (Is 7:16). Rezin and Pekah (the two kings) failed in their attack against Jerusalem (2 Kings 16:5-9). Presumably the child named "Immanuel" would have learned right and wrong sometime soon after the kings failed. In contrast, Jesus, born roughly 700 years later and long after the two kings failed, was named "Jesus" and not "Immanuel". Matthew's point was that Jesus was not the literal child described in Isaiah 7, but a type of the child in Isaiah 7. Matthew's entire book is littered with this style of typological expostion, for instance Matthew 2:15 where he links the return of Jesus from Egypt to Palestine following the murder attempts by Herod. He quotes Hosea 11:1 ("out of Egypt have I called my Son") when a basic reading of Hosea 11:1 reveals that it is about the Exodus. Holy cow, how did this guy become a pastor? If he's the teacher, how bad must his flock be? Are you kidding? You clearly understand that you are in direct contrast to the basic tenants of every Christian CHurch... and yet seem shocked that an evangelical pastor is preaching on the Deity of Jesus Christ. Catholic, Reformed, Evangelical and Anglican clearly mark the teachings that reject the Deity of Jesus as heresy. Pastor Colin agrees with 2000 years of Church History and the Bible in its entirety. Mathew makes his point crystal clear that the King he is writing off is indeed the King of kings…Jesus the Christ. Matthew goes on to write in chapter 28 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore and make disciples of lall nations baptizing them In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. How do you even read that…what do you believe about Jesus? I still don’t really understand your angle to how you would like to have this discussion. If Jesus is not God who exactly do you believe He is? |
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ghengiskhabb
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Posted: 8/6/2012 10:22:05 PM
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Originally Posted By ghengiskhabb:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
The Real Thing: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him "Immanuel," which means God with us. Matthew 1:23 Matthew is talking about the God of the Old Testament, the living eternal God, the One and Only God, the God who gives life and breath to all men. All the other gods are imposters. This God came to be with us in the person of a tiny child whose name was Jesus. This claim-God is with us-is at the center of the Christian faith. If Jesus is not God, then we do not know God, because the central claim of Christianity is that in coming to Jesus Christ you are coming to God. If Jesus is not God, then we cannot be sure of our final salvation. Our hope of salvation rests on the fact that Jesus has been exalted to the highest place in the universe, and that all authority has been given to Him. This is our confidence that He is able to fulfill all His purposes and deliver on all His promises. If Jesus is not God with us, Christianity makes no sense, and it deserves to be discarded. But the central claim of Christianity is that Jesus is God with us! It would be easier to fit in if we could say, "There are many great teachers in history, and we think Jesus has much to offer. We are all brought up in our traditions, and the important thing is to follow the light you have and live a genuinely good life." But we can't do that. Our calling is to proclaim Him! Jesus said, "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." If you proclaim Christ, the world will call you arrogant, intolerant, narrow-minded, and bigoted. Are you ready to be associated with the offense? Pastor Colin Smith needs to read his bible a little more and start by reading Isaiah 7. Matthew 1:23 is quoting Isaiah 7:14. Isaiah was prophecying to king Ahaz (roughly 730 BC) that a child would be born as a sign that the two enemy kings he feared (described 7:1) would not be successful in their campaign against Jerusalem. This would all happen before the child knows right and wrong (Is 7:16). Rezin and Pekah (the two kings) failed in their attack against Jerusalem (2 Kings 16:5-9). Presumably the child named "Immanuel" would have learned right and wrong sometime soon after the kings failed. In contrast, Jesus, born roughly 700 years later and long after the two kings failed, was named "Jesus" and not "Immanuel". Matthew's point was that Jesus was not the literal child described in Isaiah 7, but a type of the child in Isaiah 7. Matthew's entire book is littered with this style of typological expostion, for instance Matthew 2:15 where he links the return of Jesus from Egypt to Palestine following the murder attempts by Herod. He quotes Hosea 11:1 ("out of Egypt have I called my Son") when a basic reading of Hosea 11:1 reveals that it is about the Exodus. Holy cow, how did this guy become a pastor? If he's the teacher, how bad must his flock be? Are you kidding? You clearly understand that you are in direct contrast to the basic tenants of every Christian CHurch... and yet seem shocked that an evangelical pastor is preaching on the Deity of Jesus Christ. Catholic, Reformed, Evangelical and Anglican clearly mark the teachings that reject the Deity of Jesus as heresy. Pastor Colin agrees with 2000 years of Church History and the Bible in its entirety. Mathew makes his point crystal clear that the King he is writing off is indeed the King of kings…Jesus the Christ. Matthew goes on to write in chapter 28 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore and make disciples of lall nations baptizing them In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. How do you even read that…what do you believe about Jesus? I still don’t really understand your angle to how you would like to have this discussion. If Jesus is not God who exactly do you believe He is? You haven't addressed any particular fact that I stated. Did I state anything that was factually in error? Was not the child in Isaiah 7 born as a sign to King Ahaz that his enemies would not be successful? Was not Jesus's name "Jesus", as opposed to Immanuel? |
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Cavu
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Posted: 8/6/2012 11:43:45 PM
[Last Edit: 8/6/2012 11:50:02 PM by Cavu]
The messiah "was called" many things. Those things were not necessarily His name. The Prince of Peace, The Good Shepherd, The Mighty God, Counselor, etc...were all things the messiah would be called. The NT clearly teaches Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus was God making His dwelling among us (John 1:1,14).
No, Jesus' name was not Immanuel, but Jesus was the meaning of Immanuel, "God with us." Immanuel is one of the many titles for Jesus, a description of who He is.
You are entitled to your belief ghengiskhabb, and I will defend your right to express that. With that said, I find your comment lacking in decorum and in rather poor taste and would hope you could express yourself without insinuating that all of us Trinitarian Christians are ignorant fools.
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ghengiskhabb
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Posted: 8/7/2012 10:45:55 AM
Originally Posted By Cavu:
The messiah "was called" many things. Those things were not necessarily His name. The Prince of Peace, The Good Shepherd, The Mighty God, Counselor, etc...were all things the messiah would be called. The NT clearly teaches Jesus was God in the flesh. Jesus was God making His dwelling among us (John 1:1,14). No, Jesus' name was not Immanuel, but Jesus was the meaning of Immanuel, "God with us." Immanuel is one of the many titles for Jesus, a description of who He is. So we've established that I've made no factual error. The rational conclusion is of course that Pastor Colin's analysis is deeply flawed. I have to ask, when was Jesus called Immanuel in the NT? Matthew's referece to Isaiah 7:14 is literally about a child born 700+ years earlier and typically about Christ, so that one doesn't count. Originally Posted By Cavu:
You are entitled to your belief ghengiskhabb, and I will defend your right to express that. With that said, I find your comment lacking in decorum and in rather poor taste and would hope you could express yourself without insinuating that all of us Trinitarian Christians are ignorant fools. When did I broad brush paint "all of us Trinitarian Christians are ignorant fools"? |
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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:35:21 AM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 11:47:02 AM by T1NMAN]
Forgive my bluntness ghengisK,
but let’s set everything aside for a minute other than the question that is most important. Jesus asks each of us the same question we find in the Gospels. “Who do you say that I am” My answer is “He is the Christ son of the Living God, Creator Redeemer and Judge of Humanity, King of King and Lord of lords He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending… the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Yahweh, Emanuel, The Messiah.( Along with several other names/titles’) Separate from The Father yet One in nature with God. In your own words who do you believe Jesus Christ is? |
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ghengiskhabb
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Posted: 8/7/2012 12:14:39 PM
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Forgive my bluntness ghengisK, but let’s set everything aside for a minute other than the question that is most important. Jesus asks each of us the same question we find in the Gospels. “Who do you say that I am” My answer is “He is the Christ son of the Living God, Creator Redeemer and Judge of Humanity, King of King and Lord of lords He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending… the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Yahweh, Emanuel, The Messiah.( Along with several other names/titles’) Separate from The Father yet One in nature with God. In your own words who do you believe Jesus Christ is? I believe Peter's answer to the question of "Who do you say that I am?" is correct: The Anointed of God. (it doesn't sound anything like your answer though) I presume you concede the fact that Pastor Colin's analysis was deeply flawed. |
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Strongbow
A Boxer-Henry .45 caliber miracle
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Posted: 8/7/2012 12:17:57 PM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 12:19:49 PM by Strongbow]
I have no issue of you proclaiming him however you like, so long as you do not use the government to do it, and respect my right to privacy on my own protperty.
I think ALL gods, including yours, are the products of history and culture. I don;t see anything which makes yours special. :) |
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Posted: 8/7/2012 12:38:25 PM
Originally Posted By Strongbow:
I have no issue of you proclaiming him however you like, so long as you do not use the government to do it, and respect my right to privacy on my own protperty. I think ALL gods, including yours, are the products of history and culture. I don;t see anything which makes yours special. :) Interestingly enough our Government is the product of a Christian worldview. Christianity is the only major faith that allows its own opponents to thrive, flourish and even openly criticize. Biblical ideals helped form a Country where free men have the right to even reject The Bible. Atheism has also been the bedrock of nation building…it didn’t end up quite as well for those who disagreed. |
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Posted: 8/7/2012 12:45:49 PM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 12:56:14 PM by T1NMAN]
Originally Posted By ghengiskhabb:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Forgive my bluntness ghengisK, but let’s set everything aside for a minute other than the question that is most important. Jesus asks each of us the same question we find in the Gospels. “Who do you say that I am” My answer is “He is the Christ son of the Living God, Creator Redeemer and Judge of Humanity, King of King and Lord of lords He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending… the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Yahweh, Emanuel, The Messiah.( Along with several other names/titles’) Separate from The Father yet One in nature with God. In your own words who do you believe Jesus Christ is? I believe Peter's answer to the question of "Who do you say that I am?" is correct: The Anointed of God. (it doesn't sound anything like your answer though) I presume you concede the fact that Pastor Colin's analysis was deeply flawed. No, I agree with Peter and Pastor Colin 100% . "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Mat 16" I still don't understand what you believe. What do you mean by Anointed of God? Did God bleed for sinners? |
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ghengiskhabb
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Posted: 8/7/2012 1:29:12 PM
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Originally Posted By ghengiskhabb:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Forgive my bluntness ghengisK, but let’s set everything aside for a minute other than the question that is most important. Jesus asks each of us the same question we find in the Gospels. “Who do you say that I am” My answer is “He is the Christ son of the Living God, Creator Redeemer and Judge of Humanity, King of King and Lord of lords He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending… the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Yahweh, Emanuel, The Messiah.( Along with several other names/titles’) Separate from The Father yet One in nature with God. In your own words who do you believe Jesus Christ is? I believe Peter's answer to the question of "Who do you say that I am?" is correct: The Anointed of God. (it doesn't sound anything like your answer though) I presume you concede the fact that Pastor Colin's analysis was deeply flawed. No, I agree with Peter and Pastor Colin 100% . "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Mat 16" I still don't understand what you believe. What do you mean by Anointed of God? Did God die for sinners? When I say anointed, I'm getting to the word that Christ really means lest there be any confusion. Jesus is the son of God, true enough. And the followers of Jesus are also sons of God. Jesus is of course the special son by being Anointed by God. And no, the deity did not die bleed for sinners (per your edit). P.S. The person on the cross died and was dead. Now back to the original post: So far, you haven't addressed anything Pastor Colin asserted that I stated was incorrect or pointed out any factual error that I have made. I can't tell if you have even read Isaiah 7. I have to ask, does the bible rank above or below Pastor Colin on revealing God and his plan to you? The evidence of this thread indicates Pastor Colin has the higher of the two positions. |
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Strongbow
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Posted: 8/7/2012 2:11:55 PM
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Originally Posted By Strongbow:
I have no issue of you proclaiming him however you like, so long as you do not use the government to do it, and respect my right to privacy on my own protperty. I think ALL gods, including yours, are the products of history and culture. I don;t see anything which makes yours special. :) Interestingly enough our Government is the product of a Christian worldview. Christianity is the only major faith that allows its own opponents to thrive, flourish and even openly criticize. Biblical ideals helped form a Country where free men have the right to even reject The Bible. Atheism has also been the bedrock of nation building…it didn’t end up quite as well for those who disagreed. I don't have anything against a "Christian worldview" unless it means Chistianity promoted using the government. I don't want "atheism" as the basis for government. I want the government to have nothing to do at all with relgion and vice versa. These "oooo the communists were ATHEISTS" arguments have no impact on me. I do not support communism or any other form of totalitarian state apparatus. :) |
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Posted: 8/7/2012 7:11:09 PM
Originally Posted By Strongbow:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Originally Posted By Strongbow:
I have no issue of you proclaiming him however you like, so long as you do not use the government to do it, and respect my right to privacy on my own protperty. I think ALL gods, including yours, are the products of history and culture. I don;t see anything which makes yours special. :) Interestingly enough our Government is the product of a Christian worldview. Christianity is the only major faith that allows its own opponents to thrive, flourish and even openly criticize. Biblical ideals helped form a Country where free men have the right to even reject The Bible. Atheism has also been the bedrock of nation building…it didn’t end up quite as well for those who disagreed. I don't have anything against a "Christian worldview" unless it means Chistianity promoted using the government. I don't want "atheism" as the basis for government. I want the government to have nothing to do at all with relgion and vice versa. These "oooo the communists were ATHEISTS" arguments have no impact on me. I do not support communism or any other form of totalitarian state apparatus. :) Double check the Founding Fathers own words because they were very clear on the impact The Bible and Christianity had on their own views, the construction of the U.S government and where it should place in America’s future. Every cornerstone of this great land has the imprint of The Bible on it. The Founders never shied away from the Importance of the Bible on their public policy making and Christ on their personal character building. You may not like the Bible but the fact of the matter is that it has helped build everything you love about America. When we take it out of the public forum we undermine our own heritage. |
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Posted: 8/7/2012 8:19:06 PM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 9:18:44 PM by T1NMAN]
[/quote]
I believe Peter's answer to the question of "Who do you say that I am?" is correct: The Anointed of God. (it doesn't sound anything like your answer though) I presume you concede the fact that Pastor Colin's analysis was deeply flawed.[/quote] No, I agree with Peter and Pastor Colin 100% . "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Mat 16" I still don't understand what you believe. What do you mean by Anointed of God? Did God die for sinners? [/quote] When I say anointed, I'm getting to the word that Christ really means lest there be any confusion. Jesus is the son of God, true enough. And the followers of Jesus are also sons of God. Jesus is of course the special son by being Anointed by God. And no, the deity did not die bleed for sinners (per your edit). P.S. The person on the cross died and was dead. Now back to the original post: So far, you haven't addressed anything Pastor Colin asserted that I stated was incorrect or pointed out any factual error that I have made. I can't tell if you have even read Isaiah 7. I have to ask, does the bible rank above or below Pastor Colin on revealing God and his plan to you? The evidence of this thread indicates Pastor Colin has the higher of the two positions.[/quote]I did read Isaiah 7 after your first comment. Frankly I don’t even see how you are drawing you conclusions. It looks like you are severing Isaiah 7 from Isaiah 9.Trying to break down the promise of a coming King into a coming potential event. Following your logic everything recorded in the book of Isaiah about the coming King/Messiah is subject to a time stamp found only in the events of each chapter. Isaiah is giving hope to a hopeless king Ahaz and ging him a sign. “Ahaz, was facing the armies of Syria and Israel who were combining to set up their own king and remove the “House of David” from the throne, over Judah and Jerusalem. Therefore, the Lord provides a sign to Ahaz who represents the line of David, an twa 'owth, meaning a token, ensign, standard, miracle, proof. God challenges Ahaz, to ask for a difficult sign, which Ahaz refuses to do. ……….. What was this sign? The sign Isaiah offered Ahaz was this, the alamah will have a son named Immanuel and before, the son has the ability to choose, evil or good, Israel and Syria will loose their kings, Pekah, king of Israel and Rezin, king of Syria. Isaiah was assuring a hopeless, faithless king, who was sat on the throne of David, that both of these kings would be destroyed. Ahaz was to believe the Lord, and not doubt (Isaiah 7:9). Ahaz however failed this test and called out to Assyria for help. The Assyrians came in 732 B.C. and crushed Syria killing Rezin and taking the inhabitants of Damascus captive. Ahaz met Tiglath-Pileser III in Damascus, submitting to Assyrian authority (2 Kings 16:10). Ahaz was a faithless king who rejected the Lord’s promise of deliverance and instead looked to Assyria. In Damascus, Ahaz had the priest Urijah make a copy of the altar of the pagan gods to replace the altar of the Lord. Isaiah warned Ahaz, the Assyrians would one day pass over the land of Judah like they are passing over the land of Israel to the north. This theme of Assyrian assault on Judah continues to chapter 12. During this period, clear references are made to the coming of Messiah. In Isaiah 9:7, reference is made to the eternal throne of David, clearly Messianic in nature. Isaiah 11 looks forward to the “Branch” from Jesse, David’s father, who will “Strike the earth with the rod of his mouth”. Unlike his father Ahaz, Hezekiah saw the miraculous deliverance of Jerusalem, because he trusted the Lord unlike Ahaz (Isaiah 37). Ahaz, relied on Assyria to deliver him from Israel and Syria rather then Lord. Assyria would be in control of Judah until the Lord delivered the nation in Hezekiah reign.” Isaiah 7 and 9 give messianic prophecy. “The reason we know this verse is clearly messianic is because it refers to the everlasting throne of King David. This characteristic is unmistakable in scripture. To deny these verses as messianic, would be to deny scripture itself. Lets examine the nature of the this child’s authority. Government will be upon His shoulder Increase of His government and peace There will be no end Upon the throne of David Over His kingdom Establish it with judgment and justice Even forever First, if this verse is not talking about the Messiah, then whom’s it talking about? The Messiah according to scripture will do everything mentioned here. Just ask yourself these questions, Can there be two eternal kings, sitting on one throne of King David? If the government is on His shoulder for eternity what does the Messiah do? Since this person is over David’s kingdom, of whose kingdom is Messiah over? Clearly this is Messianic in nature, the eternal nature of the throne makes this verse non-sense if applied to another person other then Messiah. The Lord, through Nathan the prophet proclaimed to David, about his descendent, his throne would be eternal.” If I put on my Sherlock Holmes cap I think I might have you figured out a bit. It looks like you are placing Jesus in the mix with a bunch of other literal pre creation children of God.. All of the same nature simply of a different natural hierarchy. I’m guessing your theology is a hybrid version of Jehovah Witness or maybe Mormon with a dash of your own special sauce. You do not believe in the Trinity so this removes Jesus as Deity. Pastor Colin isn’t the only Church leader you're disagreeing with….it’s every leader in the Global Christian Church. By rejecting Jesus Christ as God you have placed yourself in direct opposition to one of the core tenants of The Christian Faith and The Universal Christian Church. The Church that God has indeed purchased with his own blood Acts 20 (which coincidently also mentions wolves who will seek to destroy the Church). I and my Christian Brothers and Sister of varying denominations disagree on several things but we all place our faith in the righteous found in the blood of God for the remission of our sins Rom 3. I’m sure that you are a nice guy and clearly very well read but you reject the most important thing to the Christian Faith…. our Creator has bled for his rebellious and broken creation. The reality we both need to reflect on is that both of us cannot be correct. Jesus is one with God or he is not. God has bled for sinners or He has not. As C.S Lewis said; one or perhaps both of us are wrong…but we both cannot be right. The Bible classifies one of us as a wolf seeking to harm the Church. Not praying for the Church but preying on the Church. Matthew H on Isaiah 7 |
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Strongbow
A Boxer-Henry .45 caliber miracle
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Posted: 8/7/2012 8:59:19 PM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 8:59:47 PM by Strongbow]
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Originally Posted By Strongbow:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Originally Posted By Strongbow:
I have no issue of you proclaiming him however you like, so long as you do not use the government to do it, and respect my right to privacy on my own protperty. I think ALL gods, including yours, are the products of history and culture. I don;t see anything which makes yours special. :) Interestingly enough our Government is the product of a Christian worldview. Christianity is the only major faith that allows its own opponents to thrive, flourish and even openly criticize. Biblical ideals helped form a Country where free men have the right to even reject The Bible. Atheism has also been the bedrock of nation building…it didn’t end up quite as well for those who disagreed. I don't have anything against a "Christian worldview" unless it means Chistianity promoted using the government. I don't want "atheism" as the basis for government. I want the government to have nothing to do at all with relgion and vice versa. These "oooo the communists were ATHEISTS" arguments have no impact on me. I do not support communism or any other form of totalitarian state apparatus. :) Double check the Founding Fathers own words because they were very clear on the impact The Bible and Christianity had on their own views, the construction of the U.S government and where it should place in America’s future. And yet, the Constitution never mentions God, much less Christianity. You can cite its influence (and I won't deny it), but the fact remains, it receives no mention at all in our constituting document. Every cornerstone of this great land has the imprint of The Bible on it.
The Founders never shied away from the Importance of the Bible on their public policy making and Christ on their personal character building. You may not like the Bible but the fact of the matter is that it has helped build everything you love about America. When we take it out of the public forum we undermine our own heritage. I don't want it out of the public forum, I want it out of our government. We can discuss religion in public discourse, without it taking a place in public policy. |
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Posted: 8/7/2012 9:49:46 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 10:15:59 AM by T1NMAN]
Strongbow,
I think for the most part we are on the same page here. The Founders never shied away from pointing to the Bible as a major source for inspiration…but they never intended for any particular group of people who read the Bible to have absolute authority. The Founders never intended to create a nation that forced everyone in a Christian mould…that it self would be against the principles found in The Bible. The founders never intended for the Constitution to be a religious document…they all clearly agreed on the value of the religious text they already had. I will agree, The Church does not (and should not) rule through our Government. But that does not mean our Government should remove The Bible. History has shown that even when ‘christians” hold absolute political authority over time they trade power over ruling justly…and this has even gone as far as the church forbiding the populace from accessing the Bible themselves. I will also agree with you, we don’t want the Southern Baptists or Roman Catholic Church having unquestioned political sway. But in the same vein the Founders would be shocked at the level at which we have set out with the intent to remove The Bible from every aspect of Governing. The best humanity has offered this world has taken place when men have used The Bible as a guide. Imperfect men utilizing a perfect source. The Bible has influenced America and her political Documents…but they cannot replace The Bible. It is not ‘Our Book”…..it is God’s Book to the world. America offers liberty to bound men….The Bible offers Liberty to bound Hearts. |
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Strongbow
A Boxer-Henry .45 caliber miracle
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Posted: 8/8/2012 9:42:27 AM
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Strongbow, I think for the most part we are on the same page here. The Founders never shied away from pointing to the Bible as a major source for inspiration…but they never intended for any particular group of people who read the Bible to have absolute authority. The Founders never intended to create a nation that forced everyone in a Christian mold…that it self would be against the principles found in The Bible. The founders never intended for the Constitution to be a religious document…they all clearly agreed on the value of the religious text they already had. I will agree, The Church does not (and should not) rule through our Government. But that does not mean our Government should remove The Bible. History has shown that even when ‘christians” hold absolute political authority they not only over time they trade power over ruling justly…and this has even gone as far as the church forbiding the populace from accessing the Bible themselves. I will also agree with you, we don’t want the Southern Baptists or Roman Catholic Church having unquestioned political sway. But in the same vein the Founders would be shocked at the level at which we have set out with the intent to remove The Bible from every aspect of Governing. First, I MOSTLY agree. But as to the last part..... I think the founders were wise enough to write a document broader than their own times. The founders lived in a nation dominated by Christians (discounting native and african populations with no political power), but even then, people like Jefferson and Madison advocated that their ideas of religious freedom extended to other faiths, and even those who had no faith at all. But I'll accept that parhaps many of the founders would want more "Bible" involved in governing than we have now. But our nation is now a different place than it was then. We have far more people of different faiths and no faith at all. What our many of our founders took for granted (Christian faith) simply is not the case any longer. Fortunately the language of Constitution is still as relevant as it ever has been. I'm not sure how you have the Bible involved in Government without specifically promoting Christianity, or at least imposing Christian beliefs. |
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ghengiskhabb
Threadkiller Extraordinaire
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Posted: 8/8/2012 3:45:17 PM
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
Frankly I don’t even see how you are drawing you conclusions. It looks like you are severing Isaiah 7 from Isaiah 9.Trying to break down the promise of a coming King into a coming potential event. Following your logic everything recorded in the book of Isaiah about the coming King/Messiah is subject to a time stamp found only in the events of each chapter. Yes, I am. Just as Matthew Henry does and just as the quote below does. We do because God did through Isaiah, when he breaks the prophecies by the words similar to "The LORD spoke" (Is 7:3, 7:10, 8:1, 8:5). Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
“Ahaz, was facing the armies of Syria.....chapter 12. During this period, clear references are made to the coming of Messiah. (but note Isaiah 7:14 isn't mentioned) In Isaiah 9:7, reference is made to the eternal throne of David, clearly Messianic in nature. Isaiah 11 looks forward to the “Branch” from Jesse, David’s father, who will “Strike the earth with the rod of his mouth”. Unlike his father Ahaz, Hezekiah saw the miraculous deliverance of Jerusalem, because he trusted the Lord unlike Ahaz (Isaiah 37). Ahaz, relied on Assyria to deliver him from Israel and Syria rather then Lord. Assyria would be in control of Judah until the Lord delivered the nation in Hezekiah reign.” Isaiah 7 and 9 give messianic prophecy. “The reason we know this verse is clearly messianic is because it refers to the everlasting throne of King David. ... (Reference to Isaiah 9 snipped) ......." Can you show me which part of Isaiah 7's prophecy is messianic in nature, because even that commentary you quote doesn't state it. Isaiah's prophecy in chapter 9 is clearly messianic in nature (and I've not disagreed with that), but Matthew 1:23 and Pastor Colin's exposition of Matthew 1:23 weren't talking about it. Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
If I put on my Sherlock Holmes cap I think I might have you figured out a bit. It looks like you are placing Jesus in the mix with a bunch of other literal pre creation children of God.. All of the same nature simply of a different natural hierarchy. I’m guessing your theology is a hybrid version of Jehovah Witness or maybe Mormon with a dash of your own special sauce. As an expert on me and my beliefs, I can say with authority that I have very little in common with JWs and/or mormons, but oddly enough find them on the whole to be better neighbors. Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
You do not believe in the Trinity so this removes Jesus as Deity. Pastor Colin isn’t the only Church leader you're disagreeing with….it’s every leader in the Global Christian Church. By rejecting Jesus Christ as God you have placed yourself in direct opposition to one of the core tenants of The Christian Faith and The Universal Christian Church. The Church that God has indeed purchased with his own blood Acts 20 (which coincidently also mentions wolves who will seek to destroy the Church). I and my Christian Brothers and Sister of varying denominations disagree on several things but we all place our faith in the righteous found in the blood of God for the remission of our sins Rom 3. I’m sure that you are a nice guy and clearly very well read but you reject the most important thing to the Christian Faith…. our Creator has bled for his rebellious and broken creation. As it was the church leaders who acted through the state to nail Jesus to the tree, disagreeing with them is not a bad place to be. God went through the time and trouble to provide me with a bible, and I believe I have a responsibility to read it and understand it and accept it above Church leaders. Regarding God dying/bleeding, you've taken a questionable translation of Acts 20:28 and made a doctrine out of it. It is presumptuous to expect everybody or even anybody to walk down that trail with you. (Seriously, just type "Acts 20:28" into google and read a little) Regarding the "most important thing to the Christian faith", do you have a scripture that states says what you say (scripture, from the bible, not some commentator), or is it just the most important thing to your faith? Where do Peter or Paul make it the most important part of their statement of faith? Or even the author of Hebrews who lists the elementary tenents of the faith (Heb 6:1-2)? |
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Posted: 8/8/2012 9:48:08 PM
[Last Edit: 8/9/2012 8:43:47 PM by T1NMAN]
GhengisK,
I do agree, devoutly religious people make good friends and fantastic neighbors…but the criteria for salvation is not being a devoutly religious, good friend and neighbor. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Col 1 It is a big deal to me...without his blood I would have no peace....Without His blood I would not be reconciled unto Him. Here’s the thing man, I don’t mind chatting with you but we are going down a road that has been traveled since 325 AD . Yes, there are groups, religions and web-sights run by individuals like Richard Rubenstein (who I think might be one of your major sources) that reject The Divinity of Jesus Christ. This argument goes back to a man called Arius who tried to convince The Church that Jesus is not God. This controversy lead to the calling of the Council of Nicaea which then defined the Doctrine of The Trinity that has been used by The Church ever since in varying degrees. The Bible makes it Clear, our sin is against God, our Debit is owed to God, God’s Justice will be the standard all sinners fall under, God’s Judgment will be the punishment for our rebellion and sin. However, it is also by God’s Mercy we are spared, God’s Grace we are saved, By the Atonement of God for our sins. God delivered what God demanded…took my punishment for sin and perfection for Life. We are saved from God By God. What God demanded…God delivered. It is under this Truth that The Church has operated; this is the Gospel message that has changed the face of the planet. Now, It’s been several post and I still only have allusions to your answer to the question of Jesus. At this point, if I’m on your page, He is one of many of God’s begotten sons whom was anointed over the others in some way. In your words can you give me a paragraph on who you believe Jesus Christ to be? Is Jesus Christ Lord? Did your Creator bleed for your sins? |
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Posted: 8/10/2012 12:20:25 AM
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
In your words can you give me a paragraph on who you believe Jesus Christ to be? This is a fair question as presently the style seems to be more like guerrilla tactics instead of any serious discussion, its all based in a polemic against the OP's post appealing to nothing. |
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ghengiskhabb
Threadkiller Extraordinaire
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Posted: 8/10/2012 10:57:38 AM
Originally Posted By Col-W:
Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
In your words can you give me a paragraph on who you believe Jesus Christ to be? This is a fair question as presently the style seems to be more like guerrilla tactics instead of any serious discussion, its all based in a polemic against the OP's post appealing to nothing. If appealing to Isaiah 7, the same place Matthew is appealing to, is "appealing to nothing", then you are correct, I appealed to "nothing". If my answer is insufficient, demonstrate from the scriptures that another answer is required. If you cannot, may I suggest that your post is just a lame Guerrilla attack with no real substance. Secondly, are not my questions reasonable? Here's a rundown. ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- -Did I state anything that was factually in error? (none pointed out so far) -Was not the child in Isaiah 7 born as a sign to King Ahaz that his enemies would not be successful? (Later post suggest that I was correct) -Was not Jesus's name "Jesus", as opposed to Immanuel? (no evidence that Jesus was called Immanuel posted so far) -When did I broad brush paint "all of us Trinitarian Christians are ignorant fools"? -I have to ask, does the bible rank above or below Pastor Colin on revealing God and his plan to you? (The answer is self evident) -Can you show me which part of Isaiah 7's prophecy is messianic in nature, because even that commentary you quote doesn't state it? -Regarding the "most important thing to the Christian faith", do you have a scripture that states says what you say (scripture, from the bible, not some commentator), or is it just the most important thing to your faith? -Where do Peter or Paul make it the most important part of their statement of faith? -Or even the author of Hebrews who lists the elementary tenents of the faith (Heb 6:1-2)? |
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TheWind
FREE SOUTH JERSEY
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Posted: 8/10/2012 11:35:26 AM
That is the very reason for religious freedom.....who is Jesus? To Christians Jesus is the messiah, the incarnate of G*d, to Islam he is a prophet, To a Jew, he is a rabbi, or a low level player in Israel. A Bhuddist would look on him as a wise man, maybe an early incarnation of Bhudda...who ever? The aspect of religious freedom is that we all can have our opinions and should fear no ill from others. Because who really knows? G*d is G*d, religion is created by man to understand G*d. It is one thing to discuss who G*d is, who Jesus is? Or anyone notable in our history? But the fervor that man goes into over their opinions of who is G*d, harms us all....until judgement day, no one will truly know.
Maybe until that day we can care not of our differences, but of our similarities and learn to discuss not argue. |
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