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 TWIRE
Former training junkie
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Posted: 8/7/2012 2:15:53 PM
To save space and confusion I will not re-post.
But to answer, moral and ethical existence IS impossible without moral absolutes. And in the absence of God given morality, the 'anti-theist' can simply change his mind as to right, wrong etc. Whereas a Christian would seemingly have to renounce his belief or severely violate said moral code. You (general) are one of many generations that believes that they have it all figured out without a 'need' for Godly presence. In your reply you did not address the 'why' of moral existence, you only (re)stated that you didn't need a God to live as such, and that my belief was wrong and childlike. |
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M4
Blue Eyed Devil
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Posted: 8/7/2012 2:41:51 PM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 3:25:56 PM by M4]
Originally Posted By TWIRE: To save space and confusion I will not re-post. But to answer, moral and ethical existence IS impossible without moral absolutes. Correct, and moral absolutes are well within the ability of some to arrive at, with zero need for belief in a god or a need for religion. You clearly don't understand this, because you aren't such a person, but again, your lack of understanding has no bearing on the reality of it. You can assert, until you're blue in the face, that a belief in god and religion is a requirement for moral absolutes, but you're wrong. There's simply no other way to put it. And in the absence of God given morality, the 'anti-theist' can simply change his mind as to right, wrong etc. Whereas a Christian would seemingly have to renounce his belief or severely violate said moral code. What makes you think a moral and ethical atheist is any more prone to changing their minds on moral absolutes than the religious? You're guessing....nothing more. To assert that the atheists position is subject to whims and fluctuation, you manufacture the conditions for a superior position, but that is not reality. That is a negative assumption that is incorrect. Since you're obviously in a much better place to discuss the beliefs and values of Christians, how about you extend the same courtesy to those who are atheists and obviously understand that position better than those who have no personal comprehension of it? Seems reasonable to me, unless controlling both ends of a conversation is a requirement? You (general) are one of many generations that believes that they have it all figured out without a 'need' for Godly presence. Far from it. I don't know a single atheist who thinks they have it all figured out. Just like the thunder example and the flat Earth example, people who feel they have it all figured out, are routinely wrong. To the contrary, the religious are the ones who feel they have it all figured out. Am I wrong? In your reply you did not address the 'why' of moral existence, you only (re)stated that you didn't need a God to live as such, and that my belief was wrong and childlike. The childlike comparison was initially from you. I simply drew on that. Re-read what I wrote. The "why" of a moral existance? Take away the reward of eternal salvation, the threat of being rejected from gods kingdom upon death and required obedience, and you'll begin to understand. The moral and ethical fabric of the Bible is not exclusive to the Bible by any means. That same sense of morality and ethics permiates the human condition, both in ancient texts as well as within the sensibilities and priorities of the individual. Like Hilary once said "It takes a village to raise a child"? No, it takes responsible and loving individuals. Same with morality and ethics, they don't require "group-think" to get to the same place. They are priorities. They are arrived at though conscious deliberation of right and wrong. They are developed through the journey of the individual who places vast importance on such matters and lives in accordance with their own consciousness. You don't value the individuals ability to achieve such things, that's obvious. I know that's not a satisfactory answer to the religious, because it entirely devalues the need for the "shephard" in our lives. I'm every bit as moral and ethical as anyone you know....and I am such without a belief or need for a god. Amazing, isn't it? |
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happycynic
Infidel
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Posted: 8/7/2012 2:55:14 PM
As a practical matter moral behavior is mostly a factor of intelligence and socialization. Sociologists have done studies and found no difference between Christian populations and non-Christian populations in the U.S. in regards to any number of social indicators such as divorce rates, infidelity, etc.
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Strongbow
A Boxer-Henry .45 caliber miracle
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Posted: 8/7/2012 3:12:29 PM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 3:13:06 PM by Strongbow]
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
To save space and confusion I will not re-post. But to answer, moral and ethical existence IS impossible without moral absolutes. Nope. Provide the evidence that that statement is true. I believe mores are culturally constructed and yet somehow manage to live a moral and ethical life. The problem with asserting absolutes is that only ONE version of those absolutes can be true. How do you determine which one? Everyone seems to be pretty certain THEIR version of absolutes is correct, but oney one of them can be right if absolutes exist. Which one? |
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TWIRE
Former training junkie
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Posted: 8/8/2012 10:32:41 AM
Originally Posted By M4:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
To save space and confusion I will not re-post. But to answer, moral and ethical existence IS impossible without moral absolutes. Correct, and moral absolutes are well within the ability of some to arrive at, with zero need for belief in a god or a need for religion. You clearly don't understand this, because you aren't such a person, but again, your lack of understanding has no bearing on the reality of it. You can assert, until you're blue in the face, that a belief in god and religion is a requirement for moral absolutes, but you're wrong. There's simply no other way to put it. And in the absence of God given morality, the 'anti-theist' can simply change his mind as to right, wrong etc. Whereas a Christian would seemingly have to renounce his belief or severely violate said moral code. What makes you think a moral and ethical atheist is any more prone to changing their minds on moral absolutes than the religious? You're guessing....nothing more. To assert that the atheists position is subject to whims and fluctuation, you manufacture the conditions for a superior position, but that is not reality. That is a negative assumption that is incorrect. Since you're obviously in a much better place to discuss the beliefs and values of Christians, how about you extend the same courtesy to those who are atheists and obviously understand that position better than those who have no personal comprehension of it? Seems reasonable to me, unless controlling both ends of a conversation is a requirement? If asking why is a superior position, I am guilty. You (general) are one of many generations that believes that they have it all figured out without a 'need' for Godly presence. Far from it. I don't know a single atheist who thinks they have it all figured out. Just like the thunder example and the flat Earth example, people who feel they have it all figured out, are routinely wrong. To the contrary, the religious are the ones who feel they have it all figured out. Am I wrong? In the absence of God given value, what I think is intrinsic in every human life, there is still no exercise of logic or evolutionary mechanism to explain self sacrifice or sacrificial love. In your reply you did not address the 'why' of moral existence, you only (re)stated that you didn't need a God to live as such, and that my belief was wrong and childlike. The childlike comparison was initially from you. I simply drew on that. Re-read what I wrote. The "why" of a moral existance? Take away the reward of eternal salvation, the threat of being rejected from gods kingdom upon death and required obedience, and you'll begin to understand. The moral and ethical fabric of the Bible is not exclusive to the Bible by any means. That same sense of morality and ethics permiates the human condition (WHY?), both in ancient texts as well as within the sensibilities and priorities of the individual. Like Hilary once said "It takes a village to raise a child"? No, it takes responsible and loving individuals. Same with morality and ethics, they don't require "group-think" to get to the same place. They are priorities. They are arrived at though conscious deliberation of right and wrong. They are developed through the journey of the individual who places vast importance on such matters and lives in accordance with their own consciousness. You don't value the individuals ability to achieve such things, that's obvious. I know that's not a satisfactory answer to the religious, because it entirely devalues the need for the "shephard" in our lives. I'm every bit as moral and ethical as anyone you know....and I am such without a belief or need for a god. Amazing, isn't it? Whole lot of hurt in this post. It would seem that you are content to rely on human intellect and reason to arrive at your absolutes. Could you name a few? or one? Tell me more about me too. Now I'm more curious. |
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fatalerror113
if only in my mind
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Posted: 8/8/2012 10:03:01 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 10:16:11 PM by fatalerror113]
Originally Posted By TWIRE: I comprehended it long ago, but you haven't.Originally Posted By fatalerror113: Originally Posted By TWIRE: Originally Posted By fatalerror113: Originally Posted By TWIRE: Didn't answer. Why choose a (subjective) moral existence when it doesn't matter? It does matter, that's why. why does it matter? Why do athletes think that winning their game matters? I don't know, because it really doesn't. Because it does, to them. That's all the reason that is needed. The fact that it won't matter in a year, or 1000 years, of 1billion years is irrelevant. ETA::I mean, for a theist like you, does god really care if little Jimmy wins his little league game? No, he doesn't. Whats the point of even playing little league if it doesn't factor in to Jimmy's salvation? But it does. Our lives are opportunities to experience and express the God given gifts of love, compassion and respect. Even an atheist could recognize the character building values of competition, sportsmanship, dealing with loss, etc. Shouldn't Jimmy just spend all his time praying, something that actually is going to matter, than persuing a stupid sport for pleasure? In fact, are not all attempts to seek pleasure in this life wasteful? Yes, they are. Pleasure in life is fleeting and only a tiny glimpse of God's greatness. Chesterton once said that behind every knock on the door of a brothel is a man looking for God (paraphrased). Why not forsake all pleasure and strive purely for the afterlife? And the world would be worse how? That's not so say that life doesn't contain joyful experience or emotional highs, but it always fall short and is quickly gone. Tell us how the pursuit of pleasure has been totally fulfilling. If this life is indeed just a infinitely small spec compared to eternal life, any waking moment not 100% focused on reaching heaven is foolish. Maybe you are comprehending this after all. For me, what I do in my life, and how I affect the lives of others is all that matters. For you, what you do in your life and how you affect others doesn't matter unless it screws with your eternity. Thus I value my life and the lives of other for the sake of our lives You only value lives as a means to get to something better. I have no idea how you can assert that atheists like me wouldn't put more value on life than theists like you. Said another way, atheists value life because its all we have. Christians and certain other religions value life because it is a test, an essentially worthless means to an end. |
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fatalerror113
if only in my mind
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Posted: 8/8/2012 10:05:54 PM
[Last Edit: 8/9/2012 7:39:38 AM by fatalerror113]
Originally Posted By TWIRE: I think you are missing the point. The things that Christians argue over are NOT the existence of God or his nature. And NOT about the overwhelming majority of moral thought in Scripture. Have you seriously seen (here or elsewhere) two proclaimed Christians arguing over the validity of the Ten Commandments? The 'Golden Rule'? Hint: the answer is NO. On the other hand, the point I have been pressing is that these things (Commandments, etc.) represent moral absolutes. The anti-Theist denies God, and thereby negates the absolute. No they don't. Keeping holy the sabbath (what day? do I got to church all day that day? do I do any work? Do I go to church for an hour?), taking a certain god's name in vain, or worshiping a single god are subjective moral principles. So is coveting, "honoring" your father and mother, etc. All morality, even theistic morality, is subjective. Theists usually hate to admit it, but it is. And even if they were absolutes, its clear they are subjectively interpreted and practiced today. ETA::I wanted to elaborate on that last sentence a bit, because I realized it will probably receive criticism. The main reasons "objective god based morals" (more accurately, a list of thing that god doesn't like) are not practically objective are as follows: First, since no god has ever been objectively proven to exist, no list of things "he wants" is objectively indistinguishable from another. Is eating pork moral or immoral? Who knows, only your subjective faith can tell you. The answer if you are a Muslim or a Jew is very different than if you are a Christian. What about beef? Hindus will answer differently than anyone else. What about killing someone who openly attacks your beliefs? Different people of different religions will have different answers to this question, all of which will claim to have the objective backing of one or more deities. Second, even within a religion with a written text, there is a wide range of interpretations of said text. Take the killing example above. Go back in time far enough and Christians would have no problem executing a heretic. Look at the killing of witches which still occurs today in places like Africa. Similarly go back 200 years, when a large portion of the Christian population saw nothing immoral about owning slaves. Or why don't Jews follow all of the things that they used to? Isn't it just a subjective judgement call as to what god wants them to do? Third, even within a particular sect or church, where there is an fairly agreed upon interpretation of the written text, each individual person makes a subjective judgement call as to exactly what that means to their behavior. Sort of like speed limits, which exist as objective values that you shouldn't exceed, but there is wide latitude in their interpretation and enforcement. All of this means even if there is some objective standard laid out by some cosmic strongman, the recognition, interpretation and application of this standard are no less subjective than reason based morality (aka, the morality that atheists like me espouse.) |
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TWIRE
Former training junkie
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Posted: 8/9/2012 10:34:43 AM
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
But in a the godless void of this vast universe, a single human life has incredibly limited or no meaning. Long term or short term. Why does it matter? As stated earlier, your very existence in the sphere of atheism a random occurrence. No creator. No plan. No meaning. And the same for the lives of others. But according to you it does matter and all these random occurrences DO matter. I'm simply asking why. I've asked about sacrificial acts of love. Why? I've asked about Truth, Love, Hope. All those things that are sought by the human spirit. But you (or maybe somebody else, I can't remember and this thread is already WAY too long!) defined those as abstract concepts that couldn't be experienced objectively. I disagree.
I comprehended it long ago, but you haven't. For me, what I do in my life, and how I affect the lives of others is all that matters. My contention is that we ARE created in the image and likeness of God. We are not random. There is a plan. And human life, even in the absence of 'religion,' has value because of these truths. Your mileage clearly varies. No big deal. I'm not trying to convert or 'win' in anyway. I just am curious about the mindset and worldview that I meet in the marketplace. For you, what you do in your life and how you affect others doesn't matter unless it screws with your eternity. Thus I value my life and the lives of other for the sake of our lives You only value lives as a means to get to something better. I have no idea how you can assert that atheists like me wouldn't put more value on life than theists like you. Said another way, atheists value life because its all we have. Christians and certain other religions value life because it is a test, an essentially worthless means to an end. I know of no Christians (Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical) who would agree with your assertion that 'what you do in your life and how you affect others doesn't matter unless it screws with your eternity.' That would imply that our actions would have to meet some criteria in order for us to earn eternal life. That is not a widely held belief. |
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TWIRE
Former training junkie
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Posted: 8/9/2012 10:45:37 AM
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
I think you are missing the point. The things that Christians argue over are NOT the existence of God or his nature. And NOT about the overwhelming majority of moral thought in Scripture. Have you seriously seen (here or elsewhere) two proclaimed Christians arguing over the validity of the Ten Commandments? The 'Golden Rule'? Hint: the answer is NO. On the other hand, the point I have been pressing is that these things (Commandments, etc.) represent moral absolutes. The anti-Theist denies God, and thereby negates the absolute. No they don't. Keeping holy the sabbath (what day? do I got to church all day that day? do I do any work? Do I go to church for an hour?), taking a certain god's name in vain, or worshiping a single god are subjective moral principles. So is coveting, "honoring" your father and mother, etc. All morality, even theistic morality, is subjective. Theists usually hate to admit it, but it is. And even if they were absolutes, its clear they are subjectively interpreted and practiced today. ETA::I wanted to elaborate on that last sentence a bit, because I realized it will probably receive criticism. The main reasons "objective god based morals" (more accurately, a list of thing that god doesn't like) are not practically objective are as follows: First, since no god has ever been objectively proven to exist, no list of things "he wants" is objectively indistinguishable from another. Is eating pork moral or immoral? Who knows, only your subjective faith can tell you. The answer if you are a Muslim or a Jew is very different than if you are a Christian. What about beef? Hindus will answer differently than anyone else. What about killing someone who openly attacks your beliefs? Different people of different religions will have different answers to this question, all of which will claim to have the objective backing of one or more deities. Second, even within a religion with a written text, there is a wide range of interpretations of said text. Take the killing example above. Go back in time far enough and Christians would have no problem executing a heretic. Look at the killing of witches which still occurs today in places like Africa. Similarly go back 200 years, when a large portion of the Christian population saw nothing immoral about owning slaves. Or why don't Jews follow all of the things that they used to? Isn't it just a subjective judgement call as to what god wants them to do? Third, even within a particular sect or church, where there is an fairly agreed upon interpretation of the written text, each individual person makes a subjective judgement call as to exactly what that means to their behavior. Sort of like speed limits, which exist as objective values that you shouldn't exceed, but there is wide latitude in their interpretation and enforcement. All of this means even if there is some objective standard laid out by some cosmic strongman, the recognition, interpretation and application of this standard are no less subjective than reason based morality (aka, the morality that atheists like me espouse.) I disagree with almost every thought in this post. I think you are viewing from only extreme perspectives, evangelical fundamentalist vs. atheism. I think that you have a skewed understanding of the difference between moral absolutes and the reality of human failure. Certainly, we have free will and the ability to exercise that will. And yes, humans often attempt to rationalize their own behavior. The exercise of that free will and rationalization of behavior is what has produced our broken world. A world broken beyond the ability of reason based morality to repair. But what is missing among your list of human failures is forgiveness. I cannot objectively prove the existence of forgiveness, though. |
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Posted: 8/9/2012 12:14:06 PM
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fatalerror113
if only in my mind
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Posted: 8/9/2012 12:58:07 PM
[Last Edit: 8/9/2012 1:22:25 PM by fatalerror113]
Originally Posted By TWIRE: Originally Posted By fatalerror113: But in a the godless void of this vast universe, a single human life has incredibly limited or no meaning. This is where you are missing the point. It has meaning for human. Why does it matter? As stated earlier, your very existence in the sphere of atheism a random occurrence. No creator. No plan. No meaning. "Long term" doesn't matter. Short term is all that does. No need for
plans, for meaning, to be relevant in 1000 years. Long term or short
term. And the same for the lives of others. But according to you it does matter and all these random occurrences DO matter. I'm simply asking why. Because it matters to us. If you are unable to comprehend this simple concept, I don't know how else I can say it. I've asked about sacrificial acts of love. Why? I've asked about Truth, Love, Hope. All those things that are sought by the human spirit. I answered these things simply previously, if you are unwilling to accept those answers, that is your problem, not mine. But you (or maybe somebody else, I can't remember and this thread is already WAY too long!) defined those as abstract concepts that couldn't be experienced objectively. I disagree.I comprehended it long ago, but you haven't. For me, what I do in my life, and how I affect the lives of others is all that matters. My contention is that we ARE created in the image and likeness of God. We are not random. There is a plan. And human life, even in the absence of 'religion,' has value because of these truths. And I believe that this contention is based on nothing other than your feelings. You have no logical reason to believe this beyond faith. Your mileage clearly varies. No big deal. I'm not trying to convert or 'win' in anyway. I just am curious about the mindset and worldview that I meet in the marketplace. For you, what you do in your life and how you affect others doesn't matter unless it screws with your eternity. Thus I value my life and the lives of other for the sake of our lives You only value lives as a means to get to something better. I have no idea how you can assert that atheists like me wouldn't put more value on life than theists like you. Said another way, atheists value life because its all we have. Christians and certain other religions value life because it is a test, an essentially worthless means to an end. I know of no Christians (Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical) who would agree with your assertion that 'what you do in your life and how you affect others doesn't matter unless it screws with your eternity.' That would imply that our actions would have to meet some criteria in order for us to earn eternal life. That is not a widely held belief. No, you don't believe that you earn eternal life, but you do believe that behaving a certain way towards others is what god wants, and to not do that would be a rejection of god and that said action would put your future eternity in jeopardy. That was the point I was trying to make. I mean, isn't that the whole point of claiming that morality (how we behave with respect to each other) exists at all? Why would you call god's will for your behavior a moral system if it has no effect on anything? How could you claim that its a moral framework if it can be totally ignored and you'd still be G2G when judgement rolls around? I don't think you'll find many christians who believe this. And again, practically speaking, history and current events show that many theists have no problem doing things that were clearly evil simply because they believe that their god was cool with it. There are plenty of stories in the old testament itself is an excellent example of this. Slavery is another more recent example. Suicide bombings are another. This is because "what I think god wants" is entirely subjective, regardless if there is a god, regardless if this god has an "absolute moral code" or not. |
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fatalerror113
if only in my mind
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Posted: 8/9/2012 1:09:33 PM
Originally Posted By TWIRE: Originally Posted By fatalerror113: Originally Posted By TWIRE: I think you are missing the point. The things that Christians argue over are NOT the existence of God or his nature. And NOT about the overwhelming majority of moral thought in Scripture. Have you seriously seen (here or elsewhere) two proclaimed Christians arguing over the validity of the Ten Commandments? The 'Golden Rule'? Hint: the answer is NO. On the other hand, the point I have been pressing is that these things (Commandments, etc.) represent moral absolutes. The anti-Theist denies God, and thereby negates the absolute. No they don't. Keeping holy the sabbath (what day? do I got to church all day that day? do I do any work? Do I go to church for an hour?), taking a certain god's name in vain, or worshiping a single god are subjective moral principles. So is coveting, "honoring" your father and mother, etc. All morality, even theistic morality, is subjective. Theists usually hate to admit it, but it is. And even if they were absolutes, its clear they are subjectively interpreted and practiced today. ETA::I wanted to elaborate on that last sentence a bit, because I realized it will probably receive criticism. The main reasons "objective god based morals" (more accurately, a list of thing that god doesn't like) are not practically objective are as follows: First, since no god has ever been objectively proven to exist, no list of things "he wants" is objectively indistinguishable from another. Is eating pork moral or immoral? Who knows, only your subjective faith can tell you. The answer if you are a Muslim or a Jew is very different than if you are a Christian. What about beef? Hindus will answer differently than anyone else. What about killing someone who openly attacks your beliefs? Different people of different religions will have different answers to this question, all of which will claim to have the objective backing of one or more deities. Second, even within a religion with a written text, there is a wide range of interpretations of said text. Take the killing example above. Go back in time far enough and Christians would have no problem executing a heretic. Look at the killing of witches which still occurs today in places like Africa. Similarly go back 200 years, when a large portion of the Christian population saw nothing immoral about owning slaves. Or why don't Jews follow all of the things that they used to? Isn't it just a subjective judgement call as to what god wants them to do? Third, even within a particular sect or church, where there is an fairly agreed upon interpretation of the written text, each individual person makes a subjective judgement call as to exactly what that means to their behavior. Sort of like speed limits, which exist as objective values that you shouldn't exceed, but there is wide latitude in their interpretation and enforcement. All of this means even if there is some objective standard laid out by some cosmic strongman, the recognition, interpretation and application of this standard are no less subjective than reason based morality (aka, the morality that atheists like me espouse.) I disagree with almost every thought in this post. I think you are viewing from only extreme perspectives, evangelical fundamentalist vs. atheism. Nope, I am not. I am evaluating it objectively based on evidence. I think that you have a skewed understanding of the difference between moral absolutes and the reality of human failure. Certainly, we have free will and the ability to exercise that will. And yes, humans often attempt to rationalize their own behavior. The exercise of that free will and rationalization of behavior is what has produced our broken world. A world broken beyond the ability of reason based morality to repair. Not all, I believe you missed the entire point of my post: 1) No non-human reason based system of objective morality has been proven to exist. 2) Even if it does exist no one can agree what "god" is responsible for laying the foundation of the system. This is a problem because the "objective theistic morality" is highly dependent on the god chosen, and clearly they are not all the same. 3) Even if they can agree on the religion, no one can agree on a single interpretation. 4) Even if they can agree on an interpretation they do not all agree on the application. As I said in the other post, all of this means that even if there is an absolute god based moral standard (something that has never been proven), it is clear that practically speaking every system of morality out there practiced by humans is subjective due to the problems mentioned above, even. This is just an unavoidable reality. That is why I stated previously that practically speaking, no basis for morality is any less subjective than another. But what is missing among your list of human failures is forgiveness. I cannot objectively prove the existence of forgiveness, though. Forgiveness is a human failure? I don't understand that statement. Maybe I'm thinking about it in the wrong way. |
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Posted: 8/9/2012 1:40:31 PM
That's just it. Alot of people don't believe in Christ however they do attend a church. I have a brother that reminds me of you although not entirely. He doesn't KNOW what he believes because he says he has tried being a good person and he doesn't gain financially and he keeps having problems in life. The problem seems to be that people are led away and astray from the narrow path ...the narrow path is not your behavior, it is a opening, oppurtunity to FIND Christ. I do hope and pray he will reach down and get your attention. Not everyone makes it.... and it has nothing to do with the world news or events or gubbment policies
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M4
Blue Eyed Devil
Life Member
Joined: Nov 2000 FL, USA
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Posted: 8/9/2012 3:06:45 PM
[Last Edit: 8/9/2012 3:08:10 PM by M4]
Originally Posted By JCHammer: That's just it. Alot of people don't believe in Christ however they do attend a church. I have a brother that reminds me of you although not entirely. He doesn't KNOW what he believes because he says he has tried being a good person and he doesn't gain financially and he keeps having problems in life. The problem seems to be that people are led away and astray from the narrow path ...the narrow path is not your behavior, it is a opening, oppurtunity to FIND Christ. I do hope and pray he will reach down and get your attention. Not everyone makes it.... and it has nothing to do with the world news or events or gubbment policies .This is a perfect example of the Christian view that non-believers just don't seem to "get it". There's a kind, neighborly sort of arrogance inviolved with this approach. To summarize, the non-believer of Christianity is no more interested in searching for and/or finding Christ, than the Christian is interested in searching for, finding Odin/Isis/Ganesh....or even leprechauns. There is no basis for sympathy towards the non-believer. None.....even if you reeeeaaaally, reeeeeeeaaaaaally feel otherwise. Your brother sounds conflicted, unsure....he seems to be on the fence.....he is absolutely not an atheist/non-believer, he just sounds a bit confused and a bit frustrated. Now a guy like that? He's within your sphere of influence, so good luck. |
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Posted: 8/10/2012 1:15:13 PM
Originally Posted By M4:
Originally Posted By JCHammer:
That's just it. Alot of people don't believe in Christ however they do attend a church. I have a brother that reminds me of you although not entirely. He doesn't KNOW what he believes because he says he has tried being a good person and he doesn't gain financially and he keeps having problems in life. The problem seems to be that people are led away and astray from the narrow path ...the narrow path is not your behavior, it is a opening, oppurtunity to FIND Christ. I do hope and pray he will reach down and get your attention. Not everyone makes it.... and it has nothing to do with the world news or events or gubbment policies .This is a perfect example of the Christian view that non-believers just don't seem to "get it". There's a kind, neighborly sort of arrogance inviolved with this approach. To summarize, the non-believer of Christianity is no more interested in searching for and/or finding Christ, than the Christian is interested in searching for, finding Odin/Isis/Ganesh....or even leprechauns. There is no basis for sympathy towards the non-believer. None.....even if you reeeeaaaally, reeeeeeeaaaaaally feel otherwise. Your brother sounds conflicted, unsure....he seems to be on the fence.....he is absolutely not an atheist/non-believer, he just sounds a bit confused and a bit frustrated. Now a guy like that? He's within your sphere of influence, so good luck. If I understand you correctly, your saying there's no reason a Christian should have sympathy for a non-believer? If that the case the Christian wouldn't be a Christian, the love that's put in us, is why we try to spread the gospel ,and since we're not born believers we understand why a non-believer wouldn't want to believe ,or get saved. Everyone is born into sin and everyone that sins is a slave to sin. Unless you're a backslider you really wouldn't get why someone would have a strong belief in God, because there's a whole spiritual side to life that is hidden from the un-believer because they walk according to their own will or human nature. Believers worship God in spirit and in truth which is something only believer can truly understand, even if someone grows up in church all their life they wouldn't get it, until they sincerely give their life to Christ and repent for their sins (a complete desire to not sin) righteousness is a gift Matthew 11:28-30 that can be denied. And when you walk in the spirit and in truth, the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; this is not something you just do are try to input into your life this is a gift from God and it's one of the reasons I know He's real. And it's the spiritual side of a Christian's life that gives us that desire to live righteously ,and to spread the gospel. Living righteously is different than being a good person ,or a person with good morals, because there are sins that's in the heart of everyone that's a unbeliever ,and even real Christians have to overcome them daily (Mark 8:34). And unfortunately there are a lot of so called Christians and believers out there that are just religious, they go around making Christianity into something you just do or believe in ,and they burden people down with things they should and shouldn't do, along with half truths that make Christianity seem like a waste of time, especially when they are hypocrites themselves (Matthew 7:20-22). Jesus said in John 10:9-11(ESV)9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The thief is the devil and he's real, he doesn't want anyone finding out about life more abundantly that's why non-believers are never in short supply of reasons not to believe ,and it's because there's a seed of righteousness that's in peoples heart from birth that they even ask them selves is there a God. Every generation gets wiser and weaker, we have all these different theists titles like atheists and agnostic or whatever people like to call themselves, because people are trying to find security and comfort in their decisions. The truth will set you free. |
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M4
Blue Eyed Devil
Life Member
Joined: Nov 2000 FL, USA
Posts: 22237 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/10/2012 1:56:32 PM
Originally Posted By sonyvman79: Originally Posted By M4: Originally Posted By JCHammer: That's just it. Alot of people don't believe in Christ however they do attend a church. I have a brother that reminds me of you although not entirely. He doesn't KNOW what he believes because he says he has tried being a good person and he doesn't gain financially and he keeps having problems in life. The problem seems to be that people are led away and astray from the narrow path ...the narrow path is not your behavior, it is a opening, oppurtunity to FIND Christ. I do hope and pray he will reach down and get your attention. Not everyone makes it.... and it has nothing to do with the world news or events or gubbment policies .This is a perfect example of the Christian view that non-believers just don't seem to "get it". There's a kind, neighborly sort of arrogance inviolved with this approach. To summarize, the non-believer of Christianity is no more interested in searching for and/or finding Christ, than the Christian is interested in searching for, finding Odin/Isis/Ganesh....or even leprechauns. There is no basis for sympathy towards the non-believer. None.....even if you reeeeaaaally, reeeeeeeaaaaaally feel otherwise. Your brother sounds conflicted, unsure....he seems to be on the fence.....he is absolutely not an atheist/non-believer, he just sounds a bit confused and a bit frustrated. Now a guy like that? He's within your sphere of influence, so good luck. If I understand you correctly, your saying there's no reason a Christian should have sympathy for a non-believer? If that the case the Christian wouldn't be a Christian, the love that's put in us, is why we try to spread the gospel ,and since we're not born believers we understand why a non-believer wouldn't want to believe ,or get saved. Everyone is born into sin and everyone that sins is a slave to sin. Unless you're a backslider you really wouldn't get why someone would have a strong belief in God, because there's a whole spiritual side to life that is hidden from the un-believer because they walk according to their own will or human nature. Believers worship God in spirit and in truth which is something only believer can truly understand, even if someone grows up in church all their life they wouldn't get it, until they sincerely give their life to Christ and repent for their sins (a complete desire to not sin) righteousness is a gift Matthew 11:28-30 that can be denied. And when you walk in the spirit and in truth, the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; this is not something you just do are try to input into your life this is a gift from God and it's one of the reasons I know He's real. And it's the spiritual side of a Christian's life that gives us that desire to live righteously ,and to spread the gospel. Living righteously is different than being a good person ,or a person with good morals, because there are sins that's in the heart of everyone that's a unbeliever ,and even real Christians have to overcome them daily (Mark 8:34). And unfortunately there are a lot of so called Christians and believers out there that are just religious, they go around making Christianity into something you just do or believe in ,and they burden people down with things they should and shouldn't do, along with half truths that make Christianity seem like a waste of time, especially when they are hypocrites themselves (Matthew 7:20-22). Jesus said in John 10:9-11(ESV)9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The thief is the devil and he's real, he doesn't want anyone finding out about life more abundantly that's why non-believers are never in short supply of reasons not to believe ,and it's because there's a seed of righteousness that's in peoples heart from birth that they even ask them selves is there a God. Every generation gets wiser and weaker, we have all these different theists titles like atheists and agnostic or whatever people like to call themselves, because people are trying to find security and comfort in their decisions. The truth will set you free. The part in red? I think this is where our agreement overlaps. |
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Cavu
Proud Hillbilly and novice Banjer Picker
Team Member
Joined: Jan 2005 KY, USA
Posts: 4422 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/11/2012 12:18:01 AM
[Last Edit: 8/11/2012 12:18:53 AM by Cavu]
Originally Posted By M4: The problem is that for a person that has no belief in God, truth is subjective.Originally Posted By sonyvman79: Originally Posted By M4: Originally Posted By JCHammer: That's just it. Alot of people don't believe in Christ however they do attend a church. I have a brother that reminds me of you although not entirely. He doesn't KNOW what he believes because he says he has tried being a good person and he doesn't gain financially and he keeps having problems in life. The problem seems to be that people are led away and astray from the narrow path ...the narrow path is not your behavior, it is a opening, oppurtunity to FIND Christ. I do hope and pray he will reach down and get your attention. Not everyone makes it.... and it has nothing to do with the world news or events or gubbment policies .This is a perfect example of the Christian view that non-believers just don't seem to "get it". There's a kind, neighborly sort of arrogance inviolved with this approach. To summarize, the non-believer of Christianity is no more interested in searching for and/or finding Christ, than the Christian is interested in searching for, finding Odin/Isis/Ganesh....or even leprechauns. There is no basis for sympathy towards the non-believer. None.....even if you reeeeaaaally, reeeeeeeaaaaaally feel otherwise. Your brother sounds conflicted, unsure....he seems to be on the fence.....he is absolutely not an atheist/non-believer, he just sounds a bit confused and a bit frustrated. Now a guy like that? He's within your sphere of influence, so good luck. If I understand you correctly, your saying there's no reason a Christian should have sympathy for a non-believer? If that the case the Christian wouldn't be a Christian, the love that's put in us, is why we try to spread the gospel ,and since we're not born believers we understand why a non-believer wouldn't want to believe ,or get saved. Everyone is born into sin and everyone that sins is a slave to sin. Unless you're a backslider you really wouldn't get why someone would have a strong belief in God, because there's a whole spiritual side to life that is hidden from the un-believer because they walk according to their own will or human nature. Believers worship God in spirit and in truth which is something only believer can truly understand, even if someone grows up in church all their life they wouldn't get it, until they sincerely give their life to Christ and repent for their sins (a complete desire to not sin) righteousness is a gift Matthew 11:28-30 that can be denied. And when you walk in the spirit and in truth, the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; this is not something you just do are try to input into your life this is a gift from God and it's one of the reasons I know He's real. And it's the spiritual side of a Christian's life that gives us that desire to live righteously ,and to spread the gospel. Living righteously is different than being a good person ,or a person with good morals, because there are sins that's in the heart of everyone that's a unbeliever ,and even real Christians have to overcome them daily (Mark 8:34). And unfortunately there are a lot of so called Christians and believers out there that are just religious, they go around making Christianity into something you just do or believe in ,and they burden people down with things they should and shouldn't do, along with half truths that make Christianity seem like a waste of time, especially when they are hypocrites themselves (Matthew 7:20-22). Jesus said in John 10:9-11(ESV)9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The thief is the devil and he's real, he doesn't want anyone finding out about life more abundantly that's why non-believers are never in short supply of reasons not to believe ,and it's because there's a seed of righteousness that's in peoples heart from birth that they even ask them selves is there a God. Every generation gets wiser and weaker, we have all these different theists titles like atheists and agnostic or whatever people like to call themselves, because people are trying to find security and comfort in their decisions. The truth will set you free. The part in red? I think this is where our agreement overlaps. |
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M4
Blue Eyed Devil
Life Member
Joined: Nov 2000 FL, USA
Posts: 22240 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/11/2012 10:18:58 AM
Originally Posted By Cavu: Originally Posted By M4: Originally Posted By sonyvman79: Originally Posted By M4: Originally Posted By JCHammer: That's just it. Alot of people don't believe in Christ however they do attend a church. I have a brother that reminds me of you although not entirely. He doesn't KNOW what he believes because he says he has tried being a good person and he doesn't gain financially and he keeps having problems in life. The problem seems to be that people are led away and astray from the narrow path ...the narrow path is not your behavior, it is a opening, oppurtunity to FIND Christ. I do hope and pray he will reach down and get your attention. Not everyone makes it.... and it has nothing to do with the world news or events or gubbment policies .This is a perfect example of the Christian view that non-believers just don't seem to "get it". There's a kind, neighborly sort of arrogance inviolved with this approach. To summarize, the non-believer of Christianity is no more interested in searching for and/or finding Christ, than the Christian is interested in searching for, finding Odin/Isis/Ganesh....or even leprechauns. There is no basis for sympathy towards the non-believer. None.....even if you reeeeaaaally, reeeeeeeaaaaaally feel otherwise. Your brother sounds conflicted, unsure....he seems to be on the fence.....he is absolutely not an atheist/non-believer, he just sounds a bit confused and a bit frustrated. Now a guy like that? He's within your sphere of influence, so good luck. If I understand you correctly, your saying there's no reason a Christian should have sympathy for a non-believer? If that the case the Christian wouldn't be a Christian, the love that's put in us, is why we try to spread the gospel ,and since we're not born believers we understand why a non-believer wouldn't want to believe ,or get saved. Everyone is born into sin and everyone that sins is a slave to sin. Unless you're a backslider you really wouldn't get why someone would have a strong belief in God, because there's a whole spiritual side to life that is hidden from the un-believer because they walk according to their own will or human nature. Believers worship God in spirit and in truth which is something only believer can truly understand, even if someone grows up in church all their life they wouldn't get it, until they sincerely give their life to Christ and repent for their sins (a complete desire to not sin) righteousness is a gift Matthew 11:28-30 that can be denied. And when you walk in the spirit and in truth, the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; this is not something you just do are try to input into your life this is a gift from God and it's one of the reasons I know He's real. And it's the spiritual side of a Christian's life that gives us that desire to live righteously ,and to spread the gospel. Living righteously is different than being a good person ,or a person with good morals, because there are sins that's in the heart of everyone that's a unbeliever ,and even real Christians have to overcome them daily (Mark 8:34). And unfortunately there are a lot of so called Christians and believers out there that are just religious, they go around making Christianity into something you just do or believe in ,and they burden people down with things they should and shouldn't do, along with half truths that make Christianity seem like a waste of time, especially when they are hypocrites themselves (Matthew 7:20-22). Jesus said in John 10:9-11(ESV)9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The thief is the devil and he's real, he doesn't want anyone finding out about life more abundantly that's why non-believers are never in short supply of reasons not to believe ,and it's because there's a seed of righteousness that's in peoples heart from birth that they even ask them selves is there a God. Every generation gets wiser and weaker, we have all these different theists titles like atheists and agnostic or whatever people like to call themselves, because people are trying to find security and comfort in their decisions. The truth will set you free. The part in red? I think this is where our agreement overlaps. The problem is that for a person that has no belief in God, truth is subjective not defined by the writings and opinions of ancient tribesmen. FIFY |
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GuitarSlinger66
Member
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2001 IN, USA
Posts: 399 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/11/2012 1:34:08 PM
[Last Edit: 8/11/2012 1:36:39 PM by GuitarSlinger66]
I wasn't able to post these videos from my iPad. So for the OP (and any theists wishing to challenge their beliefs), I STRONGLY suggest watching and listening through these. If you can't take criticism, then you really need to evaluate just how strong the foundation is of your beliefs.
Part 1/2 Part 2/2 And regarding morality... |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:46:42 PM
I am currently purchasing souls. There is an ad in the equipment exchange. Atheists are welcome to apply.
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fatalerror113
if only in my mind
Team Member
Joined: Dec 2005 NC, USA
Posts: 17804 Feedback: 100% (8) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/12/2012 6:47:59 PM
Originally Posted By tfod: I am currently purchasing souls. There is an ad in the equipment exchange. Atheists are welcome to apply. How much? Has to be worth my while to set up a paypal account.  |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:51:00 PM
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:
Originally Posted By tfod:
I am currently purchasing souls. There is an ad in the equipment exchange. Atheists are welcome to apply. How much? Has to be worth my while to set up a paypal account.
It is in the EE WTB everything else. Would be good to own a few extra souls. I think down the road I can resell them with a little mark up. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 7:33:32 PM
never mind, my ad got deleted.
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medicmandan
Member
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2002 UT, USA
Posts: 18777 Feedback: 100% (11) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/12/2012 8:31:14 PM
Let's keep it serious please.
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GuitarSlinger66
Member
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2001 IN, USA
Posts: 403 Feedback: 100% (3) Link To This Post |
Posted: 8/12/2012 11:29:03 PM
If you're selling souls, I have a few indulgences to sell you...
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