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TWIRE
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Posted: 8/2/2012 12:00:57 AM
Originally Posted By M4:

Originally Posted By Col-W:
Why don't you pick out your top 3 or 5 out of that list of 193 supposed contradictions so a person can deal with it; this is a forum after all.


It's kinda illustrating a larger issue actually.


I agree. Absent of specific arguments, the weak go to cut and paste mode.
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TWIRE
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Posted: 8/2/2012 12:06:57 AM
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:

I live my life for myself and my family. I do what I think is right/wrong. I make my own decisions where nothing supernatural tells me what to think/do, honor, love etc. I live an honorable life because I choose to, not because of fear from eternal damnation.



Why choose to? In a godless universe, you and yours are are just cosmic flotsam. If you ended up being the most influential human being in the history of all that ever was, ever is and ever will be, it is meaningless existence. Why do you have value? Why does your family matter, why do you possess even a vestige of a moral compass? What you think is right or wrong is completely subjective and could be twisted into any absurd direction based on your own whims.

Why?


Because regardless of what you believe, not all people are inherently evil and like to do bad. I have a wife and son to live for. Just because I don't have a fear of some random God, doesn't mean I'm not humans and want to live a good, productive life.

Basically like Fatalerror said; it DOES matter.......


So why are not all people inherently evil? Why do they not like to do bad. Why are you called to live for your wife or kid? You may have stated why it matters to you, but in the grand scheme of things, in a godless creation, YOU are the random occurrence. It shouldn't matter what you do or how you do it. But apparently it does. You said so. But you haven't answered why.
It matters to us, because we are conscious beings who have value in our own existence.

This is really a first grade level concept here.


Then maybe you should repeat first grade! How do you know you are conscious? So far your answer boils down to 'I have value because I say I have value.' I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and promote that to a third grade argument right beside Spiderman is better than Hulk and Oh yeah? Yeah!

In a godless creation you have no more value than an insect. You breathe, you eat, defecate, you reproduce, you die. You are a random occurrence. Nothing more....and yet you keep insisting that you have value. And that you have values.

Oderint dum metuant
The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are strong at the broken places.
TWIRE
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Posted: 8/2/2012 12:18:16 AM
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By fatalerror113:

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Didn't answer. Why choose a (subjective) moral existence when it doesn't matter?

It does matter, that's why.





why does it matter?

Why do athletes think that winning their game matters? I don't know, because it really doesn't.
Because it does, to them.

That's all the reason that is needed.

The fact that it won't matter in a year, or 1000 years, of 1billion years is irrelevant.

ETA::I mean, for a theist like you, does god really care if little Jimmy wins his little league game? No, he doesn't. Whats the point of even playing little league if it doesn't factor in to Jimmy's salvation? But it does. Our lives are opportunities to experience and express the God given gifts of love, compassion and respect. Even an atheist could recognize the character building values of competition, sportsmanship, dealing with loss, etc. Shouldn't Jimmy just spend all his time praying, something that actually is going to matter, than persuing a stupid sport for pleasure? In fact, are not all attempts to seek pleasure in this life wasteful? Yes, they are. Pleasure in life is fleeting and only a tiny glimpse of God's greatness. Chesterton once said that behind every knock on the door of a brothel is a man looking for God (paraphrased). Why not forsake all pleasure and strive purely for the afterlife? And the world would be worse how? That's not so say that life doesn't contain joyful experience or emotional highs, but it always fall short and is quickly gone. Tell us how the pursuit of pleasure has been totally fulfilling. If this life is indeed just a infinitely small spec compared to eternal life, any waking moment not 100% focused on reaching heaven is foolish. Maybe you are comprehending this after all.



Oderint dum metuant
The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are strong at the broken places.
CaverX
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Posted: 8/2/2012 12:44:25 AM
Perhaps you should be asking yourself why you need to ask someone else about what you feel or believe.
BigeasySnow
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Posted: 8/2/2012 12:59:08 AM
Originally Posted By CaverX:
Perhaps you should be asking yourself why you need to ask someone else about what you feel or believe.


Humans are social creatures. It's natural to check a new feeling or idea with others and to question yourself. It's healthy to get others' take on the big issues in your life.
Look, if I can't put everyone into little boxes and then blindly apply my feelings about those boxes to the people I put in them, how am I supposed to know who I can look down on? -- Snips
Col-W
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Posted: 8/2/2012 10:10:51 AM
Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By Col-W:

Belief really isn't the issue, Sovereignty is.

That's a really circular argument. Why would anyone submit themselves to the sovereignty of a God they don't believe in?


Because it's the law and imputed to them as citizens, it doesn't require belief, just obedience. It's not their personal beliefs that is the problem that I'm addressing, rather the anarchial principle and unconstitutional presupposition of the life and world view of anthropological theism. We can make room for this on an individual level, but not when it attacks the foundations of social order to overthrow it.

"Thou Shalt Not Steal" for example is a negative commandment that also embodies a positive duty flowing through the two great positive commandments (e.g., Love God and your neighbor as yourself) - private property is presupposed; so I have an obligation to protect my own estate and the estate of my neighbor. Thou Shalt Not Kill is the same thing, I have a responsibility to protect my own life and the life of my neighbor from being taken unjustly, hence having the effective means to enforce the law is a requirement - the police power flows from the individual and we appoint a portion, without surrender, to the State for justice purposes but that doesn't absolve us of our responsibilities to one another living in community.
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Posted: 8/2/2012 11:25:57 AM

Originally Posted By Col-W:
Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By Col-W:

Belief really isn't the issue, Sovereignty is.

That's a really circular argument. Why would anyone submit themselves to the sovereignty of a God they don't believe in?


Because it's the law and imputed to them as citizens, it doesn't require belief, just obedience.


Really?

out of
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T1NMAN
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Posted: 8/2/2012 11:48:01 AM
[Last Edit: 8/2/2012 12:10:58 PM by T1NMAN]
Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By M4:

Originally Posted By Col-W:
Why don't you pick out your top 3 or 5 out of that list of 193 supposed contradictions so a person can deal with it; this is a forum after all.


It's kinda illustrating a larger issue actually.


I agree. Absent of specific arguments, the weak go to cut and paste mode.


John Browning clearly did not design both the 1911 and High-power…one is 45acp and the other 9mm.

Whichever sight those came from is a horrible source for information and I would highly recommend a better source for Bible bashing.
It smacks of amateurism on a level I almost think is embarrassing.
“How could an angel appear to Joseph and Mary… which was it…one or the other…clearly the Bible is a lie!”……oh me…I blame public education and The X-box.
The answer to most of them is clear simply from reading the questions...... but I do still hope M4 reads all those texts
M4
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Posted: 8/2/2012 12:03:38 PM
[Last Edit: 8/2/2012 12:04:44 PM by M4]

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By M4:

Originally Posted By Col-W:
Why don't you pick out your top 3 or 5 out of that list of 193 supposed contradictions so a person can deal with it; this is a forum after all.


It's kinda illustrating a larger issue actually.


I agree. Absent of specific arguments, the weak go to cut and paste mode.

Direct Biblical quotes are now "fuzzy" and non-specific?

What's non-specific is the ability of believers to make heads or tails from them, and communicate that in a rational explanation.

Reality is that the overwhelming contradictions in the Bible have no good answers, thus skrting the issue all together is the typical MO, as we've seen here.

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T1NMAN
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Posted: 8/2/2012 12:45:47 PM
[Last Edit: 8/2/2012 12:48:08 PM by T1NMAN]
Originally Posted By M4:

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By M4:

Originally Posted By Col-W:
Why don't you pick out your top 3 or 5 out of that list of 193 supposed contradictions so a person can deal with it; this is a forum after all.


It's kinda illustrating a larger issue actually.


I agree. Absent of specific arguments, the weak go to cut and paste mode.

Direct Biblical quotes are now "fuzzy" and non-specific?

What's non-specific is the ability of believers to make heads or tails from them, and communicate that in a rational explanation.

Reality is that the overwhelming contradictions in the Bible have no good answers, thus skrting the issue all together is the typical MO, as we've seen here.



If I make the statement to a friend.
‘I asked Ms Malkin to go to dinner. We drove to Chik-fil-A got out of the car went inside and ordered food.”
Now if asked for further details about the event I might say ‘I asked her out, I drove her Infinity with the V6, and I also noted that the driver side door is sticking. I had the chicken sandwich and a tea which were both fantastic….She looked pretty.
If the same friend asked her about the afternoon the details might sound very different. ‘He just asked via text which was tacky, He drove my car because his was full of trash and on empty, I had to open my own passenger side door. Who takes a date out for fast food I only had a fries and he dressed like a slob in the process?
The details don’t conflict… simply give the friend a more complete picture of the facts.

The Bible is not a Dick and Jane reader. While a single story can be understood by a child that story can also consume countless hours of study and exposition by many wise men or women.

You see where this is going. The Bible is comprised of 66 books by an estimated 33 authors. They all may have a few individual details of events different but they all still have the same message.
The angel appeared to both Joseph and Mary.
Jesus was tempted during and after the 40 days of fasting.
Jesus is Emmanuel.
John and Jesus would naturally be expected to see the reviled Spirit descend…because they were both there.
The heavenly voice addressed Jesus who was with a gathering.
Peter preached to Jews and Gentiles at different times.
On and on it could go…simply by looking at the listed text it is clear that the supposed contradictions are not conflicting Truths simply differing details about true events from different writers.

Now there are some difficult passages in the Bible that have been contested by the Church for a long time…but ironically most don’t even make that list.
At the end of the day The Bible unanimously tells the story of sin and redemption. Judgment and Grace, Justice and Mercy.
A Triune God who redeems rebellious sinners with his own blood.
The whole of the Bible points to Jesus….that is The question you have to answer.
What will I do with this man Jesus?
Col-W
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Posted: 8/2/2012 2:03:12 PM
[Last Edit: 8/2/2012 2:05:22 PM by Col-W]
Originally Posted By M4:
Originally Posted By Col-W:
Because it's the law and imputed to them as citizens, it doesn't require belief, just obedience.

Really?


Yeah, really. I don't care if you belief God said that stealing is wrong, or that you don't believe that you have private property rights because of it - I do expect that you obey the laws against theft, I don't care why. This moral law, statutes and case law teach unequivocally this is an absolute that applies to everyone and to civil governments too. But when that is rejected then you end up with something like the Democrat political party that holds private property itself is theft and the civil government is a equalizing agency and can't commit theft as their plethora of systematic thievery clearly demonstrates.

Our system of government was established upon the principle that private property was an unalienable right, you don't have to believe that - but you can't lawfully change that while living under it, enjoying it and engaging in unlawful activities to overthrow it.

Originally Posted By M4:
Direct Biblical quotes are now "fuzzy" and non-specific?

What's non-specific is the ability of believers to make heads or tails from them, and communicate that in a rational explanation.

Reality is that the overwhelming contradictions in the Bible have no good answers, thus skrting the issue all together is the typical MO, as we've seen here.


I looked up a dozen or so of those, most of them the context itself clears up the issues and shows the presentation to be fallicious, one I did go to the Greek to make sure my understanding was correct and that was the difference between sin being harmatia and anomia. I'll be happy to try and deal with a few of them for you, I don't have time to deal with 193.
GuitarSlinger66
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Posted: 8/5/2012 11:05:58 PM
Welcome to the dark side. We have better sex than Christians.

I suggest a few books to help (they did with me). I could sit here and type up a dissertation to help convince you (or others), but the best thing you could do is read.

The Bible - Yes, reading it critically will turn you into an atheist. It's full of contradictions and ridiculous claims.
Breaking the Spell - Daniel Dennet. Very easy read. Recommended for "don't hurt me."
Sam Harris - Letter to a Christian Nation. Very short and excellent read. Can be finished in a matter of hours. Very provocative
God is Not Great - By the late, great Christopher Hitchens. This is the big one. Heavy read, extremely thought provoking, and very critical of religion. It takes several readings.

I also suggest looking up "Christopher Hitchens" on YouTube. Particularly the two part series "Christianity is immoral."

See you on the other side.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
happycynic
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Posted: 8/5/2012 11:08:22 PM

Originally Posted By GuitarSlinger66:

The Bible - Yes, reading it critically will turn you into an atheist. It's full of contradictions and ridiculous claims.

There are more options besides "fundamentalist christian" and "atheist."
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Posted: 8/6/2012 12:37:04 AM
Sure. But being a cafeteria Christian (or Muslim) is not looked upon too highly in the prophetic texts. You can believe whatever you want, most Christians do- they pick and choose what is convenient or what fits what they want their personal god to like, then follow that path.

Same way with so-called Islamic fundamentalists. As Sam Harris once said, the problem with Islamic fundamentals is the fundamental problems of Islam. Read the Koran and underline the violent texts. Then tell me it's a religion of peace. Jainism is a religion of peace. So is Buddhism. The more fundamental a Jain gets, the LESS violent they get.

There are only a handful of stories of people twisting Buddhism into nationalism (WW2 Japan), but for the most part, you can cherry-pick Buddhism all you want. The only problematic part of Buddhism is understanding some of it- not trying to interpret "Should I really kill my neighbor for working on the Sabbath?" Or "Should we kill our daughter because she refuses to conform to our ways (just happened in GB).

So you can pick and choose and call yourself whatever you want- but when you identify as Christian you have to stand behind the Bible and everything it says ; just the same as a Muslim must stand behind every sura in the Koran. If you intend to cherry-pick (which again is okay) and take bits and pieces from each religion, then call yourself "spiritual" and say you still believe in a higher power- that's fine too. Just don't group yourself in with the fundamentalists (read: literal followers of the faith).

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
sonyvman79
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Posted: 8/6/2012 12:53:12 AM
Originally Posted By GuitarSlinger66:

The Bible - Yes, reading it critically will turn you into an atheist. It's full of contradictions and ridiculous claims.


The people that read the Bible critically will miss the whole point of the gospel, you can read the the Bible 5 times in a row and never pick up on the good news, it's written like that for a reason.

Once someone accepts Jesus the change that takes place will open them up to be able to under stand Bible. The world of God has no contradictions everything is written for a reason. But when a man comes to the Bible and tries to find a version of a god that they can fully understand, one that fits their standards of what God should be, the Bible will be full of contradictions you won't even understand the Old from the New Testament the gospel is hid from those with a harden hearts.

Some religious people even people even fall for this trap they come up with a way of life that they think will please God out of fear of going to Hell but their hearts are far from God. They don't have the love of God in them ,but they go around and try to pose their views and way of life on people instead of just telling the Good News.

Since I gave my life to Jesus I can truthfully say my God is AWESOME, the joy and peace, the answered prayers. Living my life for Jesus is far greater than any amount of un-Godly living I did before I KNEW Him.

What does miracle mean?
T1NMAN
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Posted: 8/6/2012 1:06:16 AM
Originally Posted By GuitarSlinger66:
Welcome to the dark side. We have better sex than Christians.

I suggest a few books to help (they did with me). I could sit here and type up a dissertation to help convince you (or others), but the best thing you could do is read.

The Bible - Yes, reading it critically will turn you into an atheist. It's full of contradictions and ridiculous claims.
Breaking the Spell - Daniel Dennet. Very easy read. Recommended for "don't hurt me."
Sam Harris - Letter to a Christian Nation. Very short and excellent read. Can be finished in a matter of hours. Very provocative
God is Not Great - By the late, great Christopher Hitchens. This is the big one. Heavy read, extremely thought provoking, and very critical of religion. It takes several readings.

I also suggest looking up "Christopher Hitchens" on YouTube. Particularly the two part series "Christianity is immoral."

See you on the other side.


I do miss Mr. Hitchions with his razor wit and always found him brilliant and thought provoking.
I highly recommend the following YouTube of a sharp Wesleyan and Atheist going back and forth.
Both far more educated and intelligent than I am.... yet I still disagree with both on various levels.
I do not believe God is threatened by those who genuinely seek Truth….but the Bible does warn those who only seek to reject Truth.
If you dont have 2+ hours skip to 1:20

I find it interesting that my favorite Atheist spent his last days reading ‘The Everlasting Man’ a book written by my favorite Catholic.
I have to wonder what would cause a dying man who spent his life believing in no eternal hope…to spend his last efforts seeking to understand a refute a man who spent his life speaking of eternal and everlasting hope.
TWIRE
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Posted: 8/6/2012 1:33:28 PM
Originally Posted By GuitarSlinger66:
Sure. But being a cafeteria Christian (or Muslim) is not looked upon too highly in the prophetic texts. You can believe whatever you want, most Christians do- they pick and choose what is convenient or what fits what they want their personal god to like, then follow that path.

Same way with so-called Islamic fundamentalists. As Sam Harris once said, the problem with Islamic fundamentals is the fundamental problems of Islam. Read the Koran and underline the violent texts. Then tell me it's a religion of peace. Jainism is a religion of peace. So is Buddhism. The more fundamental a Jain gets, the LESS violent they get.

There are only a handful of stories of people twisting Buddhism into nationalism (WW2 Japan), but for the most part, you can cherry-pick Buddhism all you want. The only problematic part of Buddhism is understanding some of it- not trying to interpret "Should I really kill my neighbor for working on the Sabbath?" Or "Should we kill our daughter because she refuses to conform to our ways (just happened in GB).

So you can pick and choose and call yourself whatever you want- but when you identify as Christian you have to stand behind the Bible and everything it says ; just the same as a Muslim must stand behind every sura in the Koran. If you intend to cherry-pick (which again is okay) and take bits and pieces from each religion, then call yourself "spiritual" and say you still believe in a higher power- that's fine too. Just don't group yourself in with the fundamentalists (read: literal followers of the faith).



This is unintentionally funny. As if an 'anti-theist' is free from cherry picking his morality. In the absence of moral absolutes all that is left is cherry picked feel good philosophy/morality.
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happycynic
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Posted: 8/6/2012 2:26:37 PM

Originally Posted By TWIRE:

This is unintentionally funny. As if an 'anti-theist' is free from cherry picking his morality. In the absence of moral absolutes all that is left is cherry picked feel good philosophy/morality.

There are so many competing religions that you can accuse the theists of the same.
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M4
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Posted: 8/6/2012 4:19:40 PM

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By TWIRE:

This is unintentionally funny. As if an 'anti-theist' is free from cherry picking his morality. In the absence of moral absolutes all that is left is cherry picked feel good philosophy/morality.

There are so many competing religions that you can accuse the theists of the same.

Correct. Even the various denominations of Christianity are proof of that.

The continual "my interpretation is better than yours" validates that....I see it on this site ALL the time.
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TWIRE
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Posted: 8/6/2012 4:52:56 PM
I think you are missing the point. The things that Christians argue over are NOT the existence of God or his nature. And NOT about the overwhelming majority of moral thought in Scripture. Have you seriously seen (here or elsewhere) two proclaimed Christians arguing over the validity of the Ten Commandments? The 'Golden Rule'? Hint: the answer is NO.

On the other hand, the point I have been pressing is that these things (Commandments, etc.) represent moral absolutes. The anti-Theist denies God, and thereby negates the absolute.
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happycynic
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Posted: 8/6/2012 4:59:27 PM

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
I think you are missing the point. The things that Christians argue over are NOT the existence of God or his nature. And NOT about the overwhelming majority of moral thought in Scripture. Have you seriously seen (here or elsewhere) two proclaimed Christians arguing over the validity of the Ten Commandments? The 'Golden Rule'? Hint: the answer is NO.

On the other hand, the point I have been pressing is that these things (Commandments, etc.) represent moral absolutes. The anti-Theist denies God, and thereby negates the absolute.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is a distinction that pragmatically makes little difference. Yes, in a metaphysical sense God gives an objective basis for morality that atheism lacks. But in a practical sense there are so many different conceptions of God –– and not just Christian ones –– that theism is just as subjective.
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GuitarSlinger66
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Posted: 8/6/2012 11:21:44 PM
There were moral people and just laws long before the Jews or Christians came along. I don't need to be told (and especially threatened) to make me a good human. I try my best to treat people the way I would want to be treated.

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices." - Voltaire
TWIRE
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Posted: 8/7/2012 10:28:17 AM
Originally Posted By GuitarSlinger66:
There were moral people and just laws long before the Jews or Christians came along.


I don't disagree. But why? What is it in the human psyche or spirit that impels a human to disregard his own safety or comfort in order to benefit another. The contention of Christianity is that, created in the 'image and likeness of God,' we act justly. Not under threat, not because of salvation, but because of grace - God in us. Christianity is a revelation of that truth existant for all time.

There is no biochemical or 'evolutionary process' that could adequately explain such behaviors.



I don't need to be told (and especially threatened) to make me a good human.



That is an issue of sovereignty. Just like a kid, reminded time and again of something that needs to be done, and always the same response, 'I know! I know!'



I try my best to treat people the way I would want to be treated.



Why bother? And I don't mean that flippantly. If, either on the microscopic level of your perceived existence, or macroscopically in its effect on the universe, your behavior does not matter, why bother to act morally? Your behavior does not affect your arrival or your departure, save for the possibility of an early death due to high risk activity (criminal, daredevil, etc). Either way your existence is a random occurrence in the void of this universe.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 10:57:26 AM
Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
I think you are missing the point. The things that Christians argue over are NOT the existence of God or his nature. And NOT about the overwhelming majority of moral thought in Scripture. Have you seriously seen (here or elsewhere) two proclaimed Christians arguing over the validity of the Ten Commandments? The 'Golden Rule'? Hint: the answer is NO.

On the other hand, the point I have been pressing is that these things (Commandments, etc.) represent moral absolutes. The anti-Theist denies God, and thereby negates the absolute.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is a distinction that pragmatically makes little difference. Yes, in a metaphysical sense God gives an objective basis for morality that atheism lacks. But in a practical sense there are so many different conceptions of God –– and not just Christian ones –– that theism is just as subjective.


I understand your point. To the Christian, 'pragmatic' (in its philosophical definition, or at least one of its definitions) action does not exist, because to the pragmatist, no ultimate moral test really exists.

Semantics, I know. But it certainly illustrates the difference in worldview.
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Posted: 8/7/2012 1:52:33 PM
[Last Edit: 8/7/2012 1:56:43 PM by M4]

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Originally Posted By GuitarSlinger66:
There were moral people and just laws long before the Jews or Christians came along.


I don't disagree. But why? What is it in the human psyche or spirit that impels a human to disregard his own safety or comfort in order to benefit another. The contention of Christianity is that, created in the 'image and likeness of God,' we act justly. Not under threat, not because of salvation, but because of grace - God in us. Christianity is a revelation of that truth existant for all time.

There is no biochemical or 'evolutionary process' that could adequately explain such behaviors.

Has it occured to you that what you require and the benefits you find in Christianity, are not universal to all people? Furthermore, that the arrival at a truly ethical and moral existance can be achieved without Chrisianity and religion for some people? For those of us that do not need ancient texts and folklore as guidance, the insistance that such is required for all, just comes across as being rather silly. Understandable, due to the benefits religion clearly serves in the lives of some, but silly when that emotional need in others is projected on to those who have absolutely no use for it....and who have achieved the same level or greater in respect to their ethics and morality.



I don't need to be told (and especially threatened) to make me a good human.



That is an issue of sovereignty. Just like a kid, reminded time and again of something that needs to be done, and always the same response, 'I know! I know!'

It is only an "issue of sovereignty" for religious people. Again, you deminish the abilities and beliefs of others by projecting that your way is the right way, and the poster you're responding to is "childlike". To me, it's far more childlike to believe in fairytales, such as Santa Claus, unicorns, and people who part oceans, turn water to wine, rise from the dead, become pregnant without sexual contact and a myriad of other such Biblical fables and myths. But call it a hunch, a "childlike" comparision, when directed at the beliefs of the religious would be considered insulting on some level, yet you're fine with placing a non-believer in the same exact category that typically offends people of your faith. We have a word for that..



I try my best to treat people the way I would want to be treated.



Why bother?

Because its important to him and aligns with his own code of ethics and morals perhaps? Your replies are clearly from a guy who can not comprehend an individuals ability to be truly moral and ethical without religion. The limitations in understanding here are yours, not his.

And I don't mean that flippantly. If, either on the microscopic level of your perceived existence, or macroscopically in its effect on the universe, your behavior does not matter, why bother to act morally?

Behavior DOES matter to the atheist. You've been told this countless times, yet you fall back on your own myopic position and assert a notion of ambiguity to the non-believers position, yet to the atheist there is no ambiguity. It's a matter of you not understanding a value to an existance that doesn't adopt your beliefs, or that of a higher power. Your lack of understanding of this, does not preclude the ability for the non-believer to be every bit as moral and ethical as anyone else simply because you fail to understand it.

Your behavior does not affect your arrival or your departure, save for the possibility of an early death due to high risk activity (criminal, daredevil, etc). Either way your existence is a random occurrence in the void of this universe.

Thousands of years ago, ancient people thought the reason for thunder was because the gods were angry. We've all pretty much dismissed that explanation, and now, know better. People hundreds of years ago thought Columbus was insane for sailing across the ocean, since the Earth was obviously flat. Yup, you guessed it, another huge group of people, wrong. We're all clear on that too. The point is that the history of mankind is FILLED with guesses about the unknown, by people certain they know what the truth is, despite not having any facts what so ever to support those positions. To the atheist, a knee jerk reaction, to asign etrnal meaning of ones existance, to believe in a heaven, an afterlife, a god.....all of it is along identical lines as those who came before us and were also clearly wrong. No harm, no foul, if it serves a purpose, great, but to assert defined meaning in life and in an afterlife, simply to provide meaning to an otherwise unknown subject is simply todays man, following in the same exact footsteps of those who came before, and who required answers in absence of facts. Like them, you're wrong too, but that's just my belief.


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