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Posted: 6/22/2017 12:16:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At 1200cc, it wasn't enough motor for a touring bike I think. My 103ci Road Glide Ultra (1700cc) was just about right, but I went to 110". Fully packed, 2 people, up a mountain road was not as strong as I would have liked. When my first V-rod got stolen, I dusted off my '77 1200cc FLH and I made it once around the block. Promptly sold it and bought another V-rod. It was just pathetically anemic after riding the V-rod. Even the 1800cc RGU is a lot of bark, not so much bite after riding an XDiavel. But different machines, with different purposes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I always thought they messed up by not offering the Vrod motor in at least one traditional looking cruiser rather than jumping in with a whole new platform. They could have solidified the drivetrain and then offered the new platform down the road. I ended up with a VTX in 02 after looking at a bunch of bikes but she he Vrod never appealed to me. Give me something similar to a Dyna Glide with that motor and it would have been pretty appealing. I think it probably could have worked in a touring bike as well where it would be a lost easier to hide it with cowling. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 1:04:41 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At 1200cc, it wasn't enough motor for a touring bike I think. My 103ci Road Glide Ultra (1700cc) was just about right, but I went to 110". Fully packed, 2 people, up a mountain road was not as strong as I would have liked. When my first V-rod got stolen, I dusted off my '77 1200cc FLH and I made it once around the block. Promptly sold it and bought another V-rod. It was just pathetically anemic after riding the V-rod. Even the 1800cc RGU is a lot of bark, not so much bite after riding an XDiavel. But different machines, with different purposes. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 1:08:25 PM EDT
[#3]
Harducley...
Sounds like Hard Dookey. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 2:36:28 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Harducley... Sounds like Hard Dookey. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 4:38:52 PM EDT
[#5]
Here’s Why That Harley/Ducati Rumor is BS
Combination of brands could be successful but is unlikely to ever occur On Wednesday we posted a story about rumors that Harley-Davidson may be interested in purchasing Italian brand Ducati, the latter being the subject of an almost constant barrage of rumors thanks to the perceived financial difficulties of its parent company, Volkswagen AG. It was an amusing story, good for getting people talking (which is what our social media guys value above all else), but let’s cast a critical eye on this thing: it’s almost certainly not true. Certainly there’s merit in the idea of a merger. On the surface you might think Harley and Ducati are a mismatch, but stop to think about what both companies are really good at: branding. Harley-Davidson in particular. Ducati has achieved unprecedented success in recent years in part because it (like Indian, Triumph, and BMW) has ripped whole pages from the Harley playbook. That is especially obvious in the way Ducati has delivered its Scrambler sub-brand. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 10:14:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except of course Harley has made V-rods for sixteen years and sold only God and the Motor company know how many. I see them all the time. I can understand why they sell t-shirts & "signature" fare. They survive on name "mystique", not on their namesake product, because they couldn't. |
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Posted: 6/22/2017 10:31:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Emissions will kill Harley . The traditional Harley crowd wants 65 horsepower air cooled and noise along with Chinese leather . Never emission levels are going to require water cooled engines to live . Harley has to do something to survive.
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Posted: 6/23/2017 5:46:02 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Emissions will kill Harley . The traditional Harley crowd wants 65 horsepower air cooled and noise along with Chinese leather . Never emission levels are going to require water cooled engines to live . Harley has to do something to survive. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 5:50:20 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly. Air cooled is dead. HD cannot even touch the tech that Duc has been rolling out. But I fear HD will kill off the competition. I used to like HD. No more. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Emissions will kill Harley . The traditional Harley crowd wants 65 horsepower air cooled and noise along with Chinese leather . Never emission levels are going to require water cooled engines to live . Harley has to do something to survive. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 6:43:50 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't you have the cool customized triumph? |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 6:49:02 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. I have an air cooled America. It has an oil cooler that works well. No overheating issues with this. All newer Triumphs are liquid cooled. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Don't you have the cool customized triumph? 
In my driveway right now, three air/oil cooled, two Ducati and one Yamaha, and one liquid cooled Honda. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 6:59:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. I have an air cooled America. It has an oil cooler that works well. No overheating issues with this. All newer Triumphs are liquid cooled. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 7:03:38 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And any Harley in the past 30 years doesn't overheat either. As well Harley is already utilizing water cooled heads and has been for a few years now. We will see that migrate to all of the bikes in their line one day from necessity. I am certainly not celebrating it as I think it is utter EPA bullshit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yep. I have an air cooled America. It has an oil cooler that works well. No overheating issues with this. All newer Triumphs are liquid cooled. 
Suuure. Went on a group ride a month or so ago and ran into stop and go traffic. Temps maybe 80 degrees, and all of the Harleys had to pull over about every 20 minutes and let their turds cool down. Fucking hilarious, and none of them are 30 years old. I lived in Vegas for 6 years and rode every single day. Lost count of the number of Harley riders I saw on the shoulder waiting for their turd to cool off while I cruised by on a modern bike. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 7:18:53 AM EDT
[#14]
First let me clarify my statement and say they can overheat. Any aircooled bike can overheat in the right conditions. Hell, I have had to cut my air cooled triumph off before in traffic. So I don't give a shit if it is a Harley, a triumph, BMW, Ducati, or DR650 given the right conditions you can do it. I don't ride a Harley right now. The only one I have is old. But I have ridden modern Harley's in high heat and stop and go traffic with no heat issues. To imply it is only Harleys is goofy.
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Posted: 6/23/2017 7:46:32 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And any Harley in the past 30 years doesn't overheat either. As well Harley is already utilizing water cooled heads and has been for a few years now. We will see that migrate to all of the bikes in their line one day from necessity. I am certainly not celebrating it as I think it is utter EPA bullshit. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 8:01:11 AM EDT
[#16]
Generally I think water cooled is good for designs and performance. But air cooled bikes are cool too in their own ways. The simplicity, the looks, and yes even the sound is different. I hate to see the refgs crammed down our throats.
I am still amazed the DR650 and KLR are still made with carbs and the DR is even air cooled. I like those bikes with carbs because I can fix them on the side of the road in Nicaragua or wherever. Sadly I know they too will be a thing of the past likely before long. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 6:57:54 PM EDT
[#17]
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The whole motorcycle industry is way, way down from 10-15 years ago. One difference you see from 10-15 years ago is a lack of sales to the white collar crowd. You used to see a Harley in just about every other driveway in my area in the early 2000's. Now there are none. I think I have seen only 2-3 Harleys on the road so far this year (and one was a vintage model). The doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc. of this generation aren't interested. |
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Posted: 6/23/2017 7:06:21 PM EDT
[#18]
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You don't get out of the basement much do you. So far this year 75-80% of the motorcycles I have seen on the road are Harleys. They sell 250,000+ bikes a year and have for years. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The whole motorcycle industry is way, way down from 10-15 years ago. One difference you see from 10-15 years ago is a lack of sales to the white collar crowd. You used to see a Harley in just about every other driveway in my area in the early 2000's. Now there are none. I think I have seen only 2-3 Harleys on the road so far this year (and one was a vintage model). The doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc. of this generation aren't interested. |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 8:14:26 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You don't get out of the basement much do you. So far this year 75-80% of the motorcycles I have seen on the road are Harleys. They sell 250,000+ bikes a year and have for years. Quote HistoryQuoted:
You don't get out of the basement much do you. So far this year 75-80% of the motorcycles I have seen on the road are Harleys. They sell 250,000+ bikes a year and have for years. In the 2016 fiscal year, some 159,500 601+cc Harley-Davidson motorcycles were registered in the United States. In the 2016 fiscal year, Honda sold around 17 million motorcycles worldwide and about 308,000 to motorcycle shoppers in North America. 
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Posted: 6/24/2017 8:20:05 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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You don't get out of the basement much do you. So far this year 75-80% of the motorcycles I have seen on the road are Harleys. They sell 250,000+ bikes a year and have for years. In the 2016 fiscal year, some 159,500 601+cc Harley-Davidson motorcycles were registered in the United States. In the 2016 fiscal year, Honda sold around 17 million motorcycles worldwide and about 308,000 to motorcycle shoppers in North America. |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 8:38:04 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryYea, so that is a ridiculous comparison. You posted Harley's US sales figures which only includes large motorcycles then you compare them to Honda sales figures that includes 50cc dirt bikes.
The sales stats discussions have always been about large displacement street bikes. Your comparison is equivalent to saying Peterbuilt is kicking the shit out of Kia in tractor trailer sales. As for world wide sales it again is apples to oranges. We in America use motorcycles for pleasure. That is a different scenario in Asia and Latin countries where they are still used as a cheap form of transportation by millions because having a car isn't possible for them. |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 2:30:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryHarley sells more 601cc+ motorcycles in the USA than any other manufacturer including Honda. Percentage share has ranged from 48-55% of that market.
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:32:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is actually a lie. http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-consumer-reports-motorcycle-ratings-20160127-story.html I've owned several Ducati's and BMW's, including two S1000RR's and found them to be reliable as well with very good fit and finish. My first bike was a Yamaha - good bike. My second bike was a Honda, also a good bike, nothing bad to say about either of the marques. I guess if you maintain them properly, they work well. At least that is my experience. But Harley-Ducatison? No thanks. What they did to Buell, and the MV fiasco does not bode well for Ducati. I'll probably never own another Harley - and I'll probably keep the one I have for many years to come, because it's a great bike that's fun to ride - but I lust after Ducati's and will likely buy more (if they survive the Harley acquisition). -k |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:37:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Harley sells more 601cc+ motorcycles in the USA than any other manufacturer including Honda. Percentage share has ranged from 48-55% of that market. 
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Posted: 6/25/2017 10:15:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hmmm, let's make the cutoff of engine size just above the bresd and butter of sportbike sales... sure, that's not slanting the numbers at all. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 2:17:40 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be fair, the 600cc sportbike is effectively dead. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Hmmm, let's make the cutoff of engine size just above the bresd and butter of sportbike sales... sure, that's not slanting the numbers at all. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 2:50:44 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How so? Everyone makes one and I thought they sold pretty well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Hmmm, let's make the cutoff of engine size just above the bresd and butter of sportbike sales... sure, that's not slanting the numbers at all. The world isn't fair, but it is funny. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 8:13:44 AM EDT
[#28]
Not seeing it. Unless HD was going to rebadge Duk's and get back into road racing, but everyone would see right through that. Lets face it HD gives their huge following exactly what it wants, a big V-Twin with a single pin crank and close firing order that has a unique and robust torque curve as well as delivering the coveted Bah-bump........Bah-bump...........Bah-bump sound that for some crazy reason they find mesmerizing.
Different strokes for different folks. My dream bike would be a MG Stelvio like adventure tourer with a silky smooth around 130 HP liquid cooled V-4 shaft driven Honda ST-1300 like engine. Hello Aprilia.................. 
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Posted: 6/26/2017 9:59:36 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Honda dropped the CBR 600from it's product line, but the other mfg still make them. The market demographics shifted post 2009. Now, 1000cc bikes loaded with modern electronic suspension control & engine management sell for $20k- $30k to adults too old &/or out of shape to ride them for more than ~20 mins. The world isn't fair, but it is funny. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:12:35 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not seeing it. Unless HD was going to rebadge Duk's and get back into road racing, but everyone would see right through that. Lets face it HD gives their huge following exactly what it wants, a big V-Twin with a single pin crank and close firing order that has a unique and robust torque curve as well as delivering the coveted Bah-bump........Bah-bump...........Bah-bump sound that for some crazy reason they find mesmerizing. Different strokes for different folks. My dream bike would be a MG Stelvio like adventure tourer with a silky smooth around 130 HP liquid cooled V-4 shaft driven Honda ST-1300 like engine. Hello Aprilia.................. It's a quality bike. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:14:40 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really? That is interesting. I presumed the 600 were where it's at due to lower cost. With everything factored in I don't pay much attention to slight ups and downs in a companies production numbers. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:47:34 AM EDT
[#32]
Oh my! There's a lot of sore rectums in this thread.
I personally think, as a guy who works in a fortune 200 company, this is a bad idea. We purchase companies all the time, just so there's no competition. I could see Harley wrecking the Italian Stallion, however I don't think it makes much sense to buy. Harley pushes out more bikes in a Quarter, than Ducati does all year. Harley also has the market clinched on the US market. It could help them in the Euro markets, where Harley has a hard time selling. This is mainly due to Euro laws on noise and emissions. Harley executives saw Buell as more of a plaything, for kids. To this day, Harley pushes the $20,000+ touring market, and they do well in this area. It gives them the most return on sales. On the topic of said bikes, I don't have much experience with Ducati. I've owned Yamaha's all my life, and switched to a Harley 3 years ago. I personally couldn't be happier. Before you ask, I'm a white male (at the time of purchase under 30 y/o) |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:02:07 PM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 6/27/2017 8:19:35 AM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 6/27/2017 9:38:32 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote History Blahhhhh road glide fairing!
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Posted: 6/28/2017 3:27:28 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hmmm, let's make the cutoff of engine size just above the bresd and butter of sportbike sales... sure, that's not slanting the numbers at all. BTW, only 75,469 sport bikes were sold in the USA from Oct 2015 to Oct 2016 and sales were down 4.7%. https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/sport-bike-sales-usa-2016/ And for those who think Harley makes more revenue selling T-shirts and clothing: Revenue from motorcycle sales = $4,122,113 Revenue from parts & accessories = $842,637 Revenue from General Merchandise (clothing) = $284,583 http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/harley-davidson-reports-fourth-quarter-full-year-2016-results-300399165.html |
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Posted: 6/28/2017 5:30:35 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I understand that is how the motorcycle industry brakes down motorcycle segments. BTW, only 75,469 sport bikes were sold in the USA from Oct 2015 to Oct 2016 and sales were down 4.7%. https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/sport-bike-sales-usa-2016/ And for those who think Harley makes more revenue selling T-shirts and clothing: Revenue from motorcycle sales = $4,122,113 Revenue from parts & accessories = $842,637 Revenue from General Merchandise (clothing) = $284,583 http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/harley-davidson-reports-fourth-quarter-full-year-2016-results-300399165.html Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hmmm, let's make the cutoff of engine size just above the bresd and butter of sportbike sales... sure, that's not slanting the numbers at all. BTW, only 75,469 sport bikes were sold in the USA from Oct 2015 to Oct 2016 and sales were down 4.7%. https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/sport-bike-sales-usa-2016/ And for those who think Harley makes more revenue selling T-shirts and clothing: Revenue from motorcycle sales = $4,122,113 Revenue from parts & accessories = $842,637 Revenue from General Merchandise (clothing) = $284,583 http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/harley-davidson-reports-fourth-quarter-full-year-2016-results-300399165.html |
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Posted: 6/28/2017 7:04:06 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Revenue is not profit, but you knew that, right? |
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Posted: 6/28/2017 10:43:39 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I understand that is how the motorcycle industry brakes down motorcycle segments. BTW, only 75,469 sport bikes were sold in the USA from Oct 2015 to Oct 2016 and sales were down 4.7%. https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/sport-bike-sales-usa-2016/ And for those who think Harley makes more revenue selling T-shirts and clothing: Revenue from motorcycle sales = $4,122,113 Revenue from parts & accessories = $842,637 Revenue from General Merchandise (clothing) = $284,583 http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/harley-davidson-reports-fourth-quarter-full-year-2016-results-300399165.html I'm a Ducati fanboi and have no use for HD, but the scale of the HD business over Ducati is pretty impressive. Worldwide in 2016 Ducati sold 55,451 motorcycles, with 8787 (I shit you not, ARFCOM's favorite number) sold in the USA. HD sold almost as many bikes in Europe as Ducati sold worldwide. Ducati's net operating margin was about $58 Million in 2016 (7%), while HD's was $773 Million (14.7%). So not only does HD almost generates more net margin than Ducati's gross revenue ($838 Million), their profit margin percentage is over double. Of course, it looks like HD has about $5 Billion in debt and long-term liabilities. Sources: http://investor.harley-davidson.com/mobile.view?c=87981&v=203&d=1&id=2240825 http://www.ducati.com/news/ducati_turnover_and_sales_continue_to_grow/2017/03/15/4487/index.do |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 7:17:40 AM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 6/29/2017 7:20:45 AM EDT
[#41]
So it looks as if this is a done deal.
The question remains; what is the reason? HD just came out with the Street Rod which is their feeble attempt at a sport bike. So it looks as if HD is trying to break into that market, which is the Duc market. So will HD kill off Duc as they did with Buell? |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 7:35:57 AM EDT
[#42]
Dealer support for Ducati would be huge for the company.
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Posted: 6/29/2017 7:45:21 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So it looks as if this is a done deal. The question remains; what is the reason? HD just came out with the Street Rod which is their feeble attempt at a sport bike. So it looks as if HD is trying to break into that market, which is the Duc market. So will HD kill off Duc as they did with Buell? I think what happens here is that people become very emotionally attached to these machines, myself included. Sometimes we want to believe that everything these companies do is about bikes and making them great, which is almost never the case. In the end all motorcycle manufacturers are corporations that want to make money. My guess is Harley Keeps Ducati as Ducati and increases the brands presence. They likely see a brand they can make money with. No one I know of wants to see a melding of Ducati and Harley bikes. The company likely knows this and wont be risking their core demographic. The 87 people who ride Ducati are all concerned that Harley is going to taint their brand but I can assure you the millions of Harley riders feel the same way about Ducati. |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 7:45:38 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So it looks as if this is a done deal. The question remains; what is the reason? HD just came out with the Street Rod which is their feeble attempt at a sport bike. So it looks as if HD is trying to break into that market, which is the Duc market. So will HD kill off Duc as they did with Buell? - tech (yesterday was 1954, today is 2017) - good R&D (to include MotoGP) - better implementation of 3rd world built products (Scrambler) - excellent brand (I would fully expect them to pump up the already decent Ducati pimp swag game) - extremely strong bona fides is very non-Harley segments (adventure, super sport, sport) Buell didn't bring any of that to the table. |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 8:22:22 AM EDT
[#45]
I wonder if HD will put Ducati's for sale in their dealerships or just franchise sales out.
I can't imagine a HD dealership servicing a Ducati. The disdain you get from even mentioning another motorcycle brand there is extreme as it is now. |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 8:29:05 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So it looks as if this is a done deal. The question remains; what is the reason? 
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Posted: 6/29/2017 8:34:59 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
10/30/2009 Never Forget. |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 9:04:11 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, and they still make more money selling motorcycles than t-shirts. There are many posts made about them making more money selling t-shirts than they do selling motorcycles and that is what keeps HD afloat, which is bs. If there are people who really believe that stereotype...
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Posted: 6/29/2017 9:58:46 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reasons? - tech (yesterday was 1954, today is 2017) - good R&D (to include MotoGP) - better implementation of 3rd world built products (Scrambler) - excellent brand (I would fully expect them to pump up the already decent Ducati pimp swag game) - extremely strong bona fides is very non-Harley segments (adventure, super sport, sport) Buell didn't bring any of that to the table. |
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Posted: 6/29/2017 10:13:01 AM EDT
[#50]
I keep hearing everyone all over the bike forums crying about Buell. But the reality is this situation is nothing like the Buell fiasco.
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