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Posted: 10/13/2014 11:11:57 PM EDT
[#1]
My first thought would be spark plugs.
Problems getting spark could be the reason for the hard start Hesitation could be misfires due to bad plugs |
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Posted: 10/13/2014 11:21:42 PM EDT
[#2]
Crapped out fuel injector spider.
Extremely common |
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Posted: 10/14/2014 2:25:20 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Crapped out fuel injector spider. Extremely common |
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Posted: 10/14/2014 9:03:38 AM EDT
[#4]
I haven't been under the doghouse of a second gen Astro before.
Is this thing accessable, or do I need the skills of an Asian contortionist? |
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Posted: 10/14/2014 2:08:34 PM EDT
[#5]
I intend to test the pressure in the fuel system, but I've been thinking...
The van is easy to start once it's been running. It's only after it's been sitting that it gets really hard to start. Is this maybe more of an issue with the fuel pump? |
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Posted: 10/14/2014 3:39:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I intend to test the pressure in the fuel system, but I've been thinking... The van is easy to start once it's been running. It's only after it's been sitting that it gets really hard to start. Is this maybe more of an issue with the fuel pump? No |
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Posted: 10/14/2014 4:22:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Crapped out fuel injector spider. Extremely common They were still using those in that year? Wow GM. My 92 blazer ate those for breakfast, lunch and dinner, horrible system. |
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Posted: 10/14/2014 4:49:12 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They were still using those in that year? Wow GM. My 92 blazer ate those for breakfast, lunch and dinner, horrible system. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Crapped out fuel injector spider. Extremely common They were still using those in that year? Wow GM. My 92 blazer ate those for breakfast, lunch and dinner, horrible system. I think they redesigned the system to eliminate the poppets in 03 |
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Posted: 10/14/2014 6:38:38 PM EDT
[#9]
I just tested the fuel pressure-
Initial key on, fuel pump humming: 61 psi Key on, engine off: 52 psi Key on, engine running: 54 psi Key off: 52 psi. In this state, the pressure drops slowly. Without timing it, I'd say maybe 2psi per minute. What's next? ETA: I guess the pressure drop is slower than that. It still had 30 psi an hour later. I hooked up a scanner to look at anything else that might be of interest. The ECT was showing 90 degrees. I'm not sure if that's too high or not. Today's high was 65, but I ran the engine briefly an hour earlier, and everything was cool to the touch. I guess I'll let it sit for a few hours and scan it again. |
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Posted: 10/14/2014 8:33:14 PM EDT
[#10]
I should also mention... When it was idling, the needle on the fuel pressure gauge fluttered. When I gave it any throttle at all, the needle steadied.
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Posted: 10/15/2014 12:40:34 AM EDT
[#11]
I decided to check the ECT again after the van had about 5hrs to sit. It was reading ~16 degrees higher than it should have, but I'm not sure if that's enough to cause a problem.
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Posted: 10/15/2014 2:27:55 AM EDT
[#12]
You already got the answer to your problem, it lies inside the intake manifold.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 9:07:10 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You already got the answer to your problem, it lies inside the intake manifold. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
You already got the answer to your problem, it lies inside the intake manifold. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Unless I'm missing something, this suggests otherwise: http://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/gm/4.3L-5.0L-5.7L/testing-the-spider-fuel-injector-1 Let's interpret the results of your fuel pressure leak down test:
CASE 1: The fuel pressure gauge's needle DID NOT drop down to 0 PSI immediately after the Key was turned to the Off position: This tells you that the fuel pressure regulator and the other components that are part of the fuel injector assembly are NOT BAD. This test is very accurate, so you don't need to remove the intake manifold plenum to visually confirm it's effectiveness and/or truthfullness! Plus, it's missing some of the more commonly mentioned symptoms. The idle isn't particularly bad, and it isn't smoking. |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 9:17:06 AM EDT
[#14]
Fuel pressures are normal so yes there is a good chance it's the spider but since they are relatively expensive and take a few hours to change I would rule out any ignition problems first. A localized spray down test with a water bottle at the ignition coil, distributor cap, and then ignition wires while the engine is running may quickly reveal any trouble spots. You will see or hear the spark arc out, or the motor may even stall if you hit the problem area.
I had one in the shop with a hard start/long crank time a few months ago. It was a 2000 GMC Safari so basically it's the same van as yours. Every time I tried to duplicate the issue throughout the day, the car would start. Then I let it sit overnight. It took a little longer than before to start but not long enough for me to pinpoint the cause. I got my spray bottle (with only water) and began to wet it down in sections...beginning with the ignition coil. Right away the spark jumped out of the ignition coil body and stalled the motor. Problem found. |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 9:41:25 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless I'm missing something, this suggests otherwise: http://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/gm/4.3L-5.0L-5.7L/testing-the-spider-fuel-injector-1 Plus, it's missing some of the more commonly mentioned symptoms. The idle isn't particularly bad, and it isn't smoking. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You already got the answer to your problem, it lies inside the intake manifold. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Unless I'm missing something, this suggests otherwise: http://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/gm/4.3L-5.0L-5.7L/testing-the-spider-fuel-injector-1 Let's interpret the results of your fuel pressure leak down test:
CASE 1: The fuel pressure gauge's needle DID NOT drop down to 0 PSI immediately after the Key was turned to the Off position: This tells you that the fuel pressure regulator and the other components that are part of the fuel injector assembly are NOT BAD. This test is very accurate, so you don't need to remove the intake manifold plenum to visually confirm it's effectiveness and/or truthfullness! Plus, it's missing some of the more commonly mentioned symptoms. The idle isn't particularly bad, and it isn't smoking. That's a great test and it rules out two very common issues with the spider system right away. However, in many cases the poppets get gummed up, not allowing enough fuel to start the motor quickly so you get longer cranking times. This system needs the high end of the fuel pressure to start(60-62psi), but will run on low-mid 50psi so it's a very picky system to begin with. Even with good pressure and a good regulator you only need a few slightly restricted injector nozzles to cause a hard start. I've seen so many of these things badly gummed up. Sometimes the shit gets hardened and after cranking it can break some of it free with the high fuel pressure alone, but it never fully goes away. If they are not already hardened you can try using Techron in the tank to clean them out unless you have a good injector cleaning system and the right adapter for this motor. I've had some great success with that and moderate success with Techron. It all depends on how badly they are gunked up. This problem is harder to diagnose because you won't get any 'typical spider symptoms' this way like smoking or quick drops in fuel pressure, but you may get hesitation every now and then and you will have longer cranking times.. |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 3:09:25 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fuel pressures are normal so yes there is a good chance it's the spider but since they are relatively expensive and take a few hours to change I would rule out any ignition problems first. A localized spray down test with a water bottle at the ignition coil, distributor cap, and then ignition wires while the engine is running may quickly reveal any trouble spots. You will see or hear the spark arc out, or the motor may even stall if you hit the problem area. I had one in the shop with a hard start/long crank time a few months ago. It was a 2000 GMC Safari so basically it's the same van as yours. Every time I tried to duplicate the issue throughout the day, the car would start. Then I let it sit overnight. It took a little longer than before to start but not long enough for me to pinpoint the cause. I got my spray bottle (with only water) and began to wet it down in sections...beginning with the ignition coil. Right away the spark jumped out of the ignition coil body and stalled the motor. Problem found. Is the idea of this test to look for compromised insulation or shorts? Are you aiming more at components themselves or their connections? |
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Posted: 10/15/2014 8:55:03 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is the idea of this test to look for compromised insulation or shorts? Are you aiming more at components themselves or their connections? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Fuel pressures are normal so yes there is a good chance it's the spider but since they are relatively expensive and take a few hours to change I would rule out any ignition problems first. A localized spray down test with a water bottle at the ignition coil, distributor cap, and then ignition wires while the engine is running may quickly reveal any trouble spots. You will see or hear the spark arc out, or the motor may even stall if you hit the problem area. I had one in the shop with a hard start/long crank time a few months ago. It was a 2000 GMC Safari so basically it's the same van as yours. Every time I tried to duplicate the issue throughout the day, the car would start. Then I let it sit overnight. It took a little longer than before to start but not long enough for me to pinpoint the cause. I got my spray bottle (with only water) and began to wet it down in sections...beginning with the ignition coil. Right away the spark jumped out of the ignition coil body and stalled the motor. Problem found. Is the idea of this test to look for compromised insulation or shorts? Are you aiming more at components themselves or their connections? Good question, this test actually checks components more so than connectors but can actually test both in certain situations. |
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Posted: 10/17/2014 8:32:17 PM EDT
[#18]
I have seen quite a few cap and rotors.
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Posted: 10/23/2014 10:21:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good question, this test actually checks components more so than connectors but can actually test both in certain situations. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Fuel pressures are normal so yes there is a good chance it's the spider but since they are relatively expensive and take a few hours to change I would rule out any ignition problems first. A localized spray down test with a water bottle at the ignition coil, distributor cap, and then ignition wires while the engine is running may quickly reveal any trouble spots. You will see or hear the spark arc out, or the motor may even stall if you hit the problem area. I had one in the shop with a hard start/long crank time a few months ago. It was a 2000 GMC Safari so basically it's the same van as yours. Every time I tried to duplicate the issue throughout the day, the car would start. Then I let it sit overnight. It took a little longer than before to start but not long enough for me to pinpoint the cause. I got my spray bottle (with only water) and began to wet it down in sections...beginning with the ignition coil. Right away the spark jumped out of the ignition coil body and stalled the motor. Problem found. Is the idea of this test to look for compromised insulation or shorts? Are you aiming more at components themselves or their connections? Good question, this test actually checks components more so than connectors but can actually test both in certain situations. It's been a while since I've had an opportunity to play with it, and it's a bit wet out tonight, so I decided to check it out. When I was starting the van, it was again hard to crank. I think moisture might be a variable. As it was cranking, I'm pretty sure I could hear sparks. I sprayed the distributor, the spark plug wires, and the ignition coil, and I didn't hear anything that stood out to me. I don't know if I had good coverage, though. Access to the lower ends of the spark plug wires and the ignition coil is limited, and I couldn't really see what I was doing. |
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