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fp1201
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Posted: 11/21/2010 6:04:01 PM
Should have know better than to wot the old girl, now it's got a collapsed lifter.
Pulled the valve cover and at first couldn't tell which one, actually I though it had bent a push rod but no-dice....put it back together, drove it to work and back home still ticking, pulled the VC off again and you could certainly tell it was flat.
Can't change the tappet w/o pulling the head, and if you get that far on an engine with 195K you might as well at least do an in-frame overhaul (rings-rods-mains, and obviously the lifter) Internally it was reasonably clean; parts were varnished as expected, but no sludge in the top end.

Any tips or tricks? It'll hold 55psi oil pressure at 1,000rpm and ~30 at hot idle...I added a half quart of Marvels (all I had on-hand)
still no improvement.


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Mugzilla
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Posted: 11/21/2010 10:39:04 PM
I think once a lifter goes, that's it. Even if you DID get it to expand again, theres no telling when it'll go again.

I'd do a leakdown check on the other 5 pistons. If they're good, just slap new lifters in it and be done. Tearing off the top-end of a 258 in the Jeep is not that tough.
shasta69
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Posted: 11/22/2010 1:43:15 AM
just slapping in new lifters will wreck havoc on the cam lobes.

put up with the tick and run it till it blows
!
Krochus
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Posted: 11/22/2010 4:09:30 AM
[Last Edit: 11/22/2010 4:12:03 AM by Krochus]
Let me guess

You've run whatever brand oil you've always run for the past however many years

And

You don't know what ZDDP content for an oil is and what it does


Well guess what? I'm sorry to say that I'm 99% sure you've munched a lifter and cam lobe. Due to running an improperly formulated oil for a flat tappet engine. Which unfortunately for you-us is any oil rated for use in passenger cars as denoted by the starburst symbol pictured below.


In other words your engine is toast an the EPA is to blame


Since this boondoggle started around 07 there have been no fewer that 4 unexplained at the time flat tappet cam failures on older flat tappet engines in my immediate family. Google ZDDP and cam failure for some great reading
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Posted: 11/22/2010 9:17:16 AM

Originally Posted By Krochus:
Let me guess

You've run whatever brand oil you've always run for the past however many years

And

You don't know what ZDDP content for an oil is and what it does


Well guess what? I'm sorry to say that I'm 99% sure you've munched a lifter and cam lobe. Due to running an improperly formulated oil for a flat tappet engine. Which unfortunately for you-us is any oil rated for use in passenger cars as denoted by the starburst symbol pictured below.


In other words your engine is toast an the EPA is to blame
http://herbsvolvombz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/oilgraphic500.jpg

Since this boondoggle started around 07 there have been no fewer that 4 unexplained at the time flat tappet cam failures on older flat tappet engines in my immediate family. Google ZDDP and cam failure for some great reading
Yep..my IROC ate 3 lobes off my comp cam shaft 3 summers ago..and I was running Mobil 1 synthetic.
This is what my lifters looked like when the engine shop tore it down.



I'd do what was suggested above. leak down and replace. Don't drive it until the lifter grenades..or you will be doing an engine job.

Originally Posted By Jim-Scoutten:
There's no way to clean up GD.

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And yes, all women know the power of the boobies.... and the pie too.
fp1201
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Posted: 11/22/2010 12:08:07 PM
Originally Posted By Krochus:
Let me guess

You've run whatever brand oil you've always run for the past however many years

And

You don't know what ZDDP content for an oil is and what it does


Well guess what? I'm sorry to say that I'm 99% sure you've munched a lifter and cam lobe. Due to running an improperly formulated oil for a flat tappet engine. Which unfortunately for you-us is any oil rated for use in passenger cars as denoted by the starburst symbol pictured below.


In other words your engine is toast an the EPA is to blame
http://herbsvolvombz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/oilgraphic500.jpg

Since this boondoggle started around 07 there have been no fewer that 4 unexplained at the time flat tappet cam failures on older flat tappet engines in my immediate family. Google ZDDP and cam failure for some great reading


Well yes I do, and no I don't:
This link dispels your argument: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1049812http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1049812
I bought this Jeep used without and verifiable history. The PO said he frequently changed the oil (which was evident) and he was using Valvoline "High Mileage" 10W30.
I've pumped up lifters from over-revving engines, but never collapsed one. My Wasserbox and commonly other VW boxer engines will leak down and "tic" for a while until they warm up, sometimes it's even longer...doesn't seem to hurt them.
Did you ever read "If you give a Mouse a Cookie..."? I've resigned to having to pull the head and swap the lifter, which may well lead to an overhaul before it's all done....not exactly what I had in mind.


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Krochus
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Posted: 11/22/2010 1:01:23 PM
Originally Posted By fp1201:
Originally Posted By Krochus:
Let me guess

You've run whatever brand oil you've always run for the past however many years

And

You don't know what ZDDP content for an oil is and what it does


Well guess what? I'm sorry to say that I'm 99% sure you've munched a lifter and cam lobe. Due to running an improperly formulated oil for a flat tappet engine. Which unfortunately for you-us is any oil rated for use in passenger cars as denoted by the starburst symbol pictured below.


In other words your engine is toast an the EPA is to blame
http://herbsvolvombz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/oilgraphic500.jpg

Since this boondoggle started around 07 there have been no fewer that 4 unexplained at the time flat tappet cam failures on older flat tappet engines in my immediate family. Google ZDDP and cam failure for some great reading


Well yes I do, and no I don't:
This link dispels your argument: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1049812http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1049812
I bought this Jeep used without and verifiable history. The PO said he frequently changed the oil (which was evident) and he was using Valvoline "High Mileage" 10W30.
I've pumped up lifters from over-revving engines, but never collapsed one. My Wasserbox and commonly other VW boxer engines will leak down and "tic" for a while until they warm up, sometimes it's even longer...doesn't seem to hurt them.
Did you ever read "If you give a Mouse a Cookie..."? I've resigned to having to pull the head and swap the lifter, which may well lead to an overhaul before it's all done....not exactly what I had in mind.


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1383829&page=1

And this much more recent link dedispels your PRE zddp reduction thread link
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1383829&page=1

When you pull your stuff apart please take pics of your trashed cam and lifters

blwngazkit
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Posted: 11/22/2010 2:35:28 PM
So what oil is now recommended in the 4.0L flat tappets? Manual specs a 10w-30, should I switch to something formulated for a diesel or what?
Originally posted by DarkCharisma:
"Thanks, I'll keep that in mind next time I try to shoot an object that's basically a shiny, perfectly round boulder."
Krochus
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Posted: 11/22/2010 2:45:05 PM
[Last Edit: 11/22/2010 2:47:36 PM by Krochus]
Originally Posted By blwngazkit:
So what oil is now recommended in the 4.0L flat tappets? Manual specs a 10w-30, should I switch to something formulated for a diesel or what?


Thats what I did, but by all means do the research and decide for yourself whats best for you

I started buying 15-w40 rotella t by the 5 gallon bucket for my small 4.0 powered fleet. As a side effect I noted that engine noise and oil consumption and leakage were both GREATLY reduced


remember the 4.0 is actually a really really OLD engine (only a decade away from flatheads) from back when manufacturers thought you were smart enough to choose an oil based on your climate and driving from a selection of viscosities
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Posted: 11/22/2010 3:51:55 PM
I guess I'm kinda stupid, but there are lots of engines today that use mechanical direct acting valvetrains (not flat tappet mind you, but basically the same gig - cam lobe directly on a bucket) and run along just fine on modern oils.

Is it inadequate oil or Jeep just not keeping up with the times?
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fp1201
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Posted: 11/22/2010 9:27:23 PM
Originally Posted By Krochus:
Originally Posted By blwngazkit:
So what oil is now recommended in the 4.0L flat tappets? Manual specs a 10w-30, should I switch to something formulated for a diesel or what?


Thats what I did, but by all means do the research and decide for yourself whats best for you

I started buying 15-w40 rotella t by the 5 gallon bucket for my small 4.0 powered fleet. As a side effect I noted that engine noise and oil consumption and leakage were both GREATLY reduced


remember the 4.0 is actually a really really OLD engine (only a decade away from flatheads) from back when manufacturers thought you were smart enough to choose an oil based on your climate and driving from a selection of viscosities


Ironically I just bought some Rotella to try in my airboat engine (aircraft motor) because it low ash and has many of the same properties as AeroShell and Phillips Aviation Oil. Now that being said, I've heard cautions about using Aircraft (piston) Oil in automotive engines and vise-verse, also that Diesel oil generally isn't compatible in gasoline engines unless specifically formulated for gas/diesel use.
If you'll do proper maintenance, they'll last!
Read the owners manual for a Mercedes or BMW; look at how often they want it done on everything! I needn't mention the historical longevity of their products.


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17Z
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Posted: 11/23/2010 7:48:34 AM
[Last Edit: 11/23/2010 7:57:19 AM by 17Z]
Stuck lifter?....Risilone is your friend!!

My little Jimmy short-wide's 4.3 V6 stuck a lifter bad...sounded like a rod knocking..not just a minor lifter rattle....Changed oil in it..added a quart of Risilone oil treatment..and let it run for a few minutes...and it quit the lifter knock.

Risilone has fixed up my 'sticky lifter issues a several times. If it's just a bogus crudded up lifter, Risilone will generally fix it....but it won't fix bent pushrods, flat cams, and cupped-out lifters

The zinc issues wearing down cams and lifters is a real pisser..as I understand it...more an issue with new installed cams than with broken in...long running engines. Solution..run diesel rated oil. As mentioned above..Rotella's good..but lots of diesel oils on the market.

I just found out that Mystic oil(what I've been using)is owned by Citgo now....Hugo Chavez oil.......Probably be switching brands when my oil stockpile is used up.
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Posted: 11/23/2010 10:02:50 AM
For the record..my engine had around 3000 miles on it, I changed the oil religously and never over reved it.
However..I store my car for 6 months out of the year.
The guy that rebuilt it for me said between the lack of zinc and the heat generated on the lifter lobes during the initial start in the spring it was a wonder I only shaved 3 lobes.
I upgraded to a roller camshaft so I won't have to deal with that problem again.
Originally Posted By Jim-Scoutten:
There's no way to clean up GD.

Posted By Bed_Head:
And yes, all women know the power of the boobies.... and the pie too.
fp1201
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Posted: 11/23/2010 10:08:03 AM
Originally Posted By 17Z:
Stuck lifter?....Risilone is your friend!!

My little Jimmy short-wide's 4.3 V6 stuck a lifter bad...sounded like a rod knocking..not just a minor lifter rattle....Changed oil in it..added a quart of Risilone oil treatment..and let it run for a few minutes...and it quit the lifter knock.

Risilone has fixed up my 'sticky lifter issues a several times. If it's just a bogus crudded up lifter, Risilone will generally fix it....but it won't fix bent pushrods, flat cams, and cupped-out lifters

The zinc issues wearing down cams and lifters is a real pisser..as I understand it...more an issue with new installed cams than with broken in...long running engines. Solution..run diesel rated oil. As mentioned above..Rotella's good..but lots of diesel oils on the market.

I just found out that Mystic oil(what I've been using)is owned by Citgo now....Hugo Chavez oil.......Probably be switching brands when my oil stockpile is used up.


I accelerated the engine to ~4,500 RPM, that's when the lifter noise started. Pulled the valve cover fully expecting to find a bent push rod or broken pivot, however nothing was found the first time, next day I pulled it back off and this time the collapsed lifter was very evident. The engine still has very good oil pressure even at hot idle.
I'll try an oil change and a can of Rislone, certainly can't hurt and it's not that expensive. IF there's any damage to the cam and/or lifters it is a direct result of this one incident, not from normal operation. This motor ran very well and was quiet, which for a Jeep 4.0 is unusual in itself.


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Posted: 11/23/2010 10:17:02 AM
Dump in some Rislone and see if that helps
vmax84
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Posted: 11/23/2010 4:15:42 PM
Drain out a quart of your oil, and drop in a quart of marvel mystery oil. I did that with an old Mitsubishi pickup engine years ago and it got rid of the tick. Drained the oil, new oil, and that was that.

Got lucky I guess.

vmax84
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Posted: 11/24/2010 10:42:18 AM
Interesting article on ZDDP & flat tappet engines:

Link to PDF article

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Posted: 11/25/2010 4:23:20 PM
Is this ZDDP something I need to worry about in my 2000 Cherokee with the 4.0L IL6? I've been running mobile 1 synthetic in it and havent had any problems.
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fp1201
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Posted: 11/25/2010 5:36:45 PM
Originally Posted By Keekleberrys:
Is this ZDDP something I need to worry about in my 2000 Cherokee with the 4.0L IL6? I've been running mobile 1 synthetic in it and haven't had any problems.

My first Jeep was an '88 Comanche with the 4.0l that had Mobil 1 at every change since new and at ~150K I replaced the rear main seal and while it was open checked a couple mains/rods and they were as good as new. last time I saw it it had 200K and was still strong.
As a rule of thumb "if you can't read the letters on the dip stick through the oil, then it's time to change it." it's served me well for 30 years.


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Krochus
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Posted: 11/25/2010 5:56:33 PM
Originally Posted By fp1201:
Originally Posted By Keekleberrys:
Is this ZDDP something I need to worry about in my 2000 Cherokee with the 4.0L IL6? I've been running mobile 1 synthetic in it and haven't had any problems.

My first Jeep was an '88 Comanche with the 4.0l that had Mobil 1 at every change since new and at ~150K I replaced the rear main seal and while it was open checked a couple mains/rods and they were as good as new. last time I saw it it had 200K and was still strong.
As a rule of thumb "if you can't read the letters on the dip stick through the oil, then it's time to change it." it's served me well for 30 years.


The "I ran brand X for 30 years" argument doesn't hold water since the ZDDP reduction has only occurred in the past 4 years

Here's what I come away with after researching. On a new or high performance cam insufficient ZDDP is instant FAIL do not pass go do not collect $200

On an older stock engine it introduces an element of unpredictability. Most get by fine, but some grind cams flat out of the blue for no appearent reason. Me I choose to run an oil that's cheaper, that my jeep likes better and offers what is concidered an apropiate formulation for my motors.
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Posted: 11/26/2010 12:34:37 AM
4.0's can last past 300K i would just change the cam and lifters if all else fails.

I run 2 ounces of Lucas Zinc Plus when i change the oil in my 4.0's.
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Posted: 11/27/2010 9:28:40 PM
Just an update: Pulled the head and the offending lifter today:
I was pleasantly surprised at how well this engine looked inside, the cylinders were nice, very little carbon deposit, and there was no damage or wear visible on the cam. I had planned to put a dial indicator on the block and check the lobes, but it won't reach and I don't have an extension for it. the lifter itself didn't show any sign of damage, but it was very much collapsed.
Since the head is off, I'm going to boil it out, lap the valves, and replace the valve stem seals (they come with head gasket set)
I could grind the valves and seats, but honestly they don't need it.....I cannot believe this engine has the miles on it the odometer shows.


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fp1201
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Posted: 11/27/2010 9:38:03 PM
Originally Posted By jeepthing07:
4.0's can last past 300K i would just change the cam and lifters if all else fails.

I run 2 ounces of Lucas Zinc Plus when i change the oil in my 4.0's.


I seen several engines and transmissions saved or at least their overhaul/replacement postponed by using their oil treatments. We had a Farmer bring in an old Freightliner with an 855 Cummins: pull the head, replace the broken ring, and put it back together! the rod bearing was down to copper and he wouldn't spend the money, so I convinced the service manager to add a gallon of Lucas and they're STILL running that engine. Of course it's only used seasonally for hauling corn silage and hay, but still...
You cannot chemically correct a mechanical deficiency, but you can help it.


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