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Posted: 4/19/2014 8:03:30 PM EDT
[#1]
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Yes they will, 401K wealth is a huge untapped revenue for a bloated out of control executive branch and, how would the gov't take 401k money? what would the collateral effects be? ar-jedi |
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Posted: 4/19/2014 8:19:25 PM EDT
[#2]
Why would you keep money where the Gov can get at it?
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Posted: 4/19/2014 9:10:24 PM EDT
[#3]
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Why would you keep money where the Gov can get at it? how would the Govt get at it? ar-jedi |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 9:36:44 AM EDT
[#4]
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how would the Govt get at it? ar-jedi Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why would you keep money where the Gov can get at it? how would the Govt get at it? ar-jedi Same way it happened in France and Hungary. They simply nationalize it with the promise to pay out as if there were no change. Initially they will pay, then they may reduce the payment or delay it (last day of the month instead of the first day). What happened overseas is studied before it happens here. If they can get away with it there, they'll try it here. Expect it (and that's why I stopped making payment years before I retired). |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:30:46 AM EDT
[#5]
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Same way it happened in France and Hungary. They simply nationalize it with the promise to pay out as if there were no change. Initially they will pay, then they may reduce the payment or delay it (last day of the month instead of the first day). What happened overseas is studied before it happens here. If they can get away with it there, they'll try it here. Expect it (and that's why I stopped making payment years before I retired). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why would you keep money where the Gov can get at it? how would the Govt get at it? ar-jedi Same way it happened in France and Hungary. They simply nationalize it with the promise to pay out as if there were no change. Initially they will pay, then they may reduce the payment or delay it (last day of the month instead of the first day). What happened overseas is studied before it happens here. If they can get away with it there, they'll try it here. Expect it (and that's why I stopped making payment years before I retired). so, working folks in France and Hungary had their retirement funds invested in their respective equity and credit markets? are you sure about that? ar-jedi |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 8:38:28 PM EDT
[#6]
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I am not immediately familiar with the situation in Argentina but I do know that one of the prerequisites to getting value out of stocks or bonds so that they can be reinvested in government bonds is that you MUST have a buyer on the other end. As I said before, if the government is seizing assets with the intent of converting those assets to government bonds, who the hell is on the other end buying those assets to make this possible in the first place? The second our government goes after those assets, they become worthless. The value of any security is predicated on the confidence that the law will recognize your ownership interest. A less significant country like Argentina might be able to get away with this because they are tiny portion of the market. When they seize assets, there are plenty of buyers elsewhere in the world who will be happy to cash them out. The USA on the other hand IS the market. If confidence in the USA crumbles, there will be no buyers. It'd be like buying real estate in Afghanistan after the Taliban moved in. Sure they could give you a piece of paper that says you bought it, but at the end of the day you know that there is no functioning government which is going to recognize your ownership interest in that property when you show up to claim it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The government has long since passed the point of beginning to screw savers. Good luck getting any type of deposit interest or CD interest of any significance at your local bank. Your 401k is not necessarily the same thing. Putting money into stocks and bonds isn't savings. When you invest in your 401k, you no longer have money, you have debt and equities. That's investing, not saving and to get money out of those instruments you need to find someone on the other end who wants to buy them. The way things are set up right now, savers get screwed, debtors get ahead, and investors are just hoping to keep up while paying taxes on partially fictional gains. Stick with your 401k, it's a hedge against inflation and it beats your alternatives at the moment since actual cash has very little value. The whole notion of the government seizing 401k assets is a little bit out there. Ask yourself this, if the government decides to seize 401k assets, who are they going to sell them to in order to get spendable cash out them? It's pointless for them to even try because the plan won't work. There would be no buyers to cash them out. Just because your 401k administrator provides you with an account statement that shows a value in dollars doesn't mean there are actual dollars in there. That's just the value of your investments as of "last trade". There's nothing spendable in there until those assets are sold and selling them requires a buyer on the other end who would rather have those assets than the cash he is giving you for them. I thought the idea was that the assets would be taken to be "reinvested" into .gov bonds and administered by .gov in your behalf. I thought that was what Argentina or some other country proposed or did. I am not immediately familiar with the situation in Argentina but I do know that one of the prerequisites to getting value out of stocks or bonds so that they can be reinvested in government bonds is that you MUST have a buyer on the other end. As I said before, if the government is seizing assets with the intent of converting those assets to government bonds, who the hell is on the other end buying those assets to make this possible in the first place? The second our government goes after those assets, they become worthless. The value of any security is predicated on the confidence that the law will recognize your ownership interest. A less significant country like Argentina might be able to get away with this because they are tiny portion of the market. When they seize assets, there are plenty of buyers elsewhere in the world who will be happy to cash them out. The USA on the other hand IS the market. If confidence in the USA crumbles, there will be no buyers. It'd be like buying real estate in Afghanistan after the Taliban moved in. Sure they could give you a piece of paper that says you bought it, but at the end of the day you know that there is no functioning government which is going to recognize your ownership interest in that property when you show up to claim it. Could the FED be the buyer? They are buying Treasuries now that China has slacked off. |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 10:57:31 AM EDT
[#7]
I think they will go after Roths because there is no way that politicians can let decades of gains go untaxed even if it means getting paid upfront for the contribution value.
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Posted: 4/24/2014 11:46:03 AM EDT
[#8]
This thread continues to fill my days with laughter
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Posted: 4/27/2014 10:24:14 AM EDT
[#9]
Why do you find this funny? Even if the government doesn't directly confiscate your IRA, they can still change the rules on how Social Security payments are calculated.
Social Security payment = (Calculated SS benefit - ROTH IRA income) Yes, they didn't confiscate your IRA, but you get exactly the same amount of income as if you spent all your money and never saved. RickR |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 7:40:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Seizure of pensions is not news. Here's something from Zerohedge (circa 2010):
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/following-hungary-and-ireland-france-next-seize-pension-funds Some folks roll their eyes when they see Zerohedge so here's something from the Christian Science Monitor: http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/The-Adam-Smith-Institute-Blog/2011/0102/European-nations-begin-seizing-private-pensions |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 8:02:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Anything is possible with government.
That said failing to save and invest is certainly screwing yourself. So you can either go with the sure thing and screw yourself, or gamble that the fed.gov fucks you. Either way I am, have been, and will continue to invest in my own future. |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 10:15:54 PM EDT
[#12]
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Anything is possible with government. That said failing to save and invest is certainly screwing yourself. So you can either go with the sure thing and screw yourself, or gamble that the fed.gov fucks you. Either way I am, have been, and will continue to invest in my own future. Agree that one must save. I did and that allowed me to retire early. One must also put one's money to use to make more money. Invest wisely and safeguard your earnings from seizure. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 8:01:03 PM EDT
[#13]
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Anything is possible with government. That said failing to save and invest is certainly screwing yourself. So you can either go with the sure thing and screw yourself, or gamble that the fed.gov fucks you. Either way I am, have been, and will continue to invest in my own future. +1 I also believe that it is the moral thing to do. Now, that statement won't be popular with some people, but so be it. |
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Posted: 5/18/2014 9:22:51 AM EDT
[#14]
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Hello, I save pretty hard, 401K and after-tax, but I worry that the Federal Government is going to screw the small minority of people who actually save money. In the end, I fear that I am going to scrimp and save for no return. "Means testing", or out-right confiscation of some percentage of savings (Cyprus), or converting 401k's into government securities (Argentina), or some fresh hell that I haven't even thought of. Anybody else worry about this? I guess I just wonder if I am paranoid, or not paranoid enough. Rick Seldom do I not read the entire thread before posting. You have adressed the main concern I have. I am attempting to have multiple income streams. |
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Posted: 5/18/2014 1:21:12 PM EDT
[#15]
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You never get pay raises? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Inflation is screwing you already. You never get pay raises? My wife not in 7 years. Me, well figure about 1% a year for the past 7 years and I was the only one getting a raise in the department. Now figure in inflation and you can now see the kick in the nuts. |
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Posted: 5/18/2014 1:24:28 PM EDT
[#16]
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Why do you find this funny? Even if the government doesn't directly confiscate your IRA, they can still change the rules on how Social Security payments are calculated. Social Security payment = (Calculated SS benefit - ROTH IRA income) Yes, they didn't confiscate your IRA, but you get exactly the same amount of income as if you spent all your money and never saved. RickR Please delete this reply as I am afraid the govt will read it and it actually comes true. But then again they are already doing this with the Lottery and educational money here in Florida. |
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Posted: 5/18/2014 1:35:48 PM EDT
[#17]
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The whole notion of the government seizing 401k assets is a little bit out there. Ask yourself this, if the government decides to seize 401k assets, who are they going to sell them to in order to get spendable cash out them? It's pointless for them to even try because the plan won't work. Neither will Obamacare. Or Social Security. Or government bailouts. Prohibition, gun control, war on drugs... Just because something won't work doesn't mean we shouldn't do it anyway, or so it seems. |
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Posted: 5/22/2014 5:31:30 AM EDT
[#18]
Even if you invest all your life and get screwed by the gov the end result is going to be the same. You will die eventually either way and it wont matter.
It is just money. Save as much as you can while enjoying life and hope for the best. That is the way i feel about it anyway. |
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Posted: 5/23/2014 10:04:49 AM EDT
[#19]
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Neither will Obamacare. Or Social Security. Or government bailouts. Prohibition, gun control, war on drugs... Just because something won't work doesn't mean we shouldn't do it anyway, or so it seems. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The whole notion of the government seizing 401k assets is a little bit out there. Ask yourself this, if the government decides to seize 401k assets, who are they going to sell them to in order to get spendable cash out them? It's pointless for them to even try because the plan won't work. Neither will Obamacare. Or Social Security. Or government bailouts. Prohibition, gun control, war on drugs... Just because something won't work doesn't mean we shouldn't do it anyway, or so it seems. There's a big difference between working poorly and not working at all. Seizing 401k assets won't work at all. The mechanics of it are impossible whereas Obamacare, SS, and bailouts are foolhardy but still actionable. An analogy would be to say that I can jump off a 100 foot cliff therefore I can jump 100 feet into the air. Sounds like the two proposals are similar but of course we know they are not. |
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Posted: 5/23/2014 10:18:02 AM EDT
[#20]
Quantitative Easing.
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