I know I keep asking these rudimentary oly lifting questions but I still haven't found a coach and the last guy that 'had certifications' you guys pretty well proved to be a moron.  So I'm asking here again.

I'm back to working on the clean as well as the OHS, so today I did a large volume of cleans at 95lbs.  I'm starting slow but when I get to the hips I pop the hips and hoist the bar, and dive back under it as fast as I can.  I've gotten pretty fast at it and I'm working on timing.  It's a ton better than it was last time I asked this forum about the clean and I appreciate the help.

I should have had my wife get some video, I'll try to do that next week.

Here's the questions-  

As I lift the bar I've noticed that if I keep the bar close to my chest so it brushes the belly and chest, it's pretty easy to catch the bar without trouble.  So I'm assuming close is good?  

However, I'm really inconsistent about how I catch the bar.  Most often I find that I catch it in my hands with elbows down then set it against my shoulders in the front rack position.  At times I bump it against my chest which sets me back slightly, but I can get the elbows high faster.  I am terrible at getting it straight into the front rack position, I'd bet that happened once in the 50 cleans I did this morning.

Also, I'm doing the initial lift with a hook grip even though it's light weight because I want to practice the grip.  I don't have trouble with it at all, in fact I liked it quite a bit as I got towards the end of my 50 cleans.  Any suggestions on grip are appreciated too, I'm basically doing a dead-lift with my hips lower than when I do deads, but foot and hand position is the same.

After the jump my feet are slightly wider than I normally squat, but I'm doing a front squat after I've got the clean up and it's been easy to squat, even as wide as I am.  I'm actually thinking of widening my squat stance, ModernDayIsraelite thought my squat stance was pretty narrow when he helped me a few months ago and as I get more mobility I find it's no longer uncomfortable.

-Use hook grip always for oly
-close is good, but don't "bump" the bar with your hips
-Catch position will vary. It will always rest on the shoulders. Elbows should be up all the way. It can rest against the neck but shouldn't slam against it. Keeping a full grip is ideal in order to transition into the jerk, but that's the part that will vary based on mobility and body geometry.


Loose fingertip grip



Full grip

OK, so I can keep 3-4 fingers (depending on the day and how well I stretched) on the bar in the rack position.  As some point I get into the position you've pictured (the first pic) but I don't go straight into that position.  I usually bring the bar up, dive under it with elbows down and palms under the bar, then quickly transition to the rack position.  As I get more weight (I'm staying light till I have the timing and technique down) I'm afraid this won't be a stable way to catch the weight.

So I'll rephrase just to make sure we understand each other, you can tell me the exact same thing again if you want

As I catch the bar, should it catch directly on the shoulders every time or is catching it in the hands and dropping it back against the shoulders ok?  That catch-drop takes just a second, but I feel like I'm doing it because I'm no good at catching it against the shoulders and I'm scared of the bar a little.  On the times I really dive under the bar and catch it directly, it bumps my chest rather than shoulders but it seems like I get the elbows up faster that way.

Thanks for the advise on the hips.  I was trying to figure out how to use the hips and not swing the bar out away from me in front.  Hips seem to do best if I use them to position the upper back better and get a good quick lift on the bar.

Sigh.

48/50 more incorrect cleans under my belt this morning.  Shoes come in soon, maybe tomorrow.  They might help me catch without feeling like I'll go backwards with it.

Thanks again.  I'll work on that.  I'm rocking the OHS these days, I can drop into a deep squat now with the bar in good position behind my head.  If I do a good job stretching I can leave my heels on the ground all the way down and sit at the bottom with the bar up.  When I get the shoes I'll start going up in weight, I've still never done more than 95lbs on the OHS.

Close is good.  A wider stance after you drop under the bar is good.  Don't catch with your wrists.  As you go up in weight, you either will miss the lift, or you'll hurt a wrist.  Even if you can maintain your grip, you're still catching the weight on your shoulders/chest.  

The difficult thing to grasp is to keep your arms locked until you're in the power position from which you explode, which is knees slightly bent, and shoulders just slightly behind your hips.  It's the same movement for snatch, just a wider grip.  Think about using more of your legs to lift the bar, and less of your upper body.  Most people learning the movement tend to pull early.  I like to think about Braveheart where they have the spears.  Hold, hold, hold, hold, fuckingpullharddropstanditup.

I'm a visual kinda guy so here's Aleksey Torokhtiy (in case you haven't seen)

Wow the translate subtitle option is both hilarious and completely useless

Told ya, I'm visual.  

I thought he subtitled the first one, but I guess not.

I turned on the translate CC,

 

Those are really good vids though.  The first showed a good view of what I was after for the catch, he's got elbows down somewhat but still catching on the shoulders.  If I was to keep my fingers on the bar more I'd be able to catch like that, with a few zillion practice runs.

The second vid shows a good segment on what I think the lawyer was saying.  Use the arms at the last second, and it's like he's using hips/legs to give the bar it's boost.  I'll practice that too.


As I was cruising YouTube after seeing your vids I came across ol' Rip.  If you see in this vid from about 18:00 to 20:00 they guy is hitting himself in the chest slightly before he gets his elbows out.  This is almost exactly what I'm doing.  It seems like it's going to be progressively harder and harder to keep the weight on the shoulders as I use more plates.  He also did a good job of describing the use of the arms, maybe I'll go read that chapter again.

I love Rip, but if you're going to learn Oly you should do it from an Oly coach. Rip teaches things differently from most Oly coaches.

Gotcha.  The most common thing I've seen is to pop it up when the bar hits the thigh and get the arms under rightthehellnow, like Lawyerup mentioned.  I'll get some video next week but I think I'm doing well enough that I'll start adding weight.  That will force me to get under the bar fast too.  The warm-up exercises will help me get the timing down better too.

Not to confuse everything further and probably shouldn't say anything without seeing a few reps, but........  For a lot of beginners, learning full extension is a higher priority than quick turnover (getting your arms under the bar).  Put up some videos if you can.

Full extension of hips, knees and toes you mean?  I know for sure I'm not doing that very well, I end up with the bar way up high at times so I've been just sorta bumping it up.  I'll see if I can get the spouse to take some vid tomorrow.  Then I'll have to figure out youtube...  I feel like a cranky old man that needs a 12 year old to run the computer.

Our college football weight coach was a big fan of power cleans and hang cleans.  We did those two lifts probably 2x as much as we did squats and bench.  He was all about power and explosiveness vs. brute strength.  The clean is definitely an explosive lift.

The techniques in the videos give great advice, and as you are figuring out you body type will drive a lot of it.  If you are long and lean you can keep it close, but will have a hard time getting it onto your shoulders.   If you are shorter and stockier you have to get the bar out a bit to clear your stomach and chest and it will in turn go in more of an arc and naturally go back on the shoulders a bit.

I was a long and lean guy (6'1" 185lbs) with long levers, so technique was key for me.  I focused on making sure to really pop my hips and legs in the jump to get some momentum built up on the bar, and then with the snap of my elbows got underneath the bar and pressed it up with my legs.  After a really good session sometimes I'd be bleeding a bit from where my collar bones protruded at the base of my neck.  What I found is that those were a good index point.  If I hit below those I'd have a hard time finishing the lift and sometimes lose the weight out front.  If I got too high into my throat I'd feel like I'd lose it backwards.

If you feel off balance that is probably a bit natural at first, but really take a look at your feet.  For hang cleans we were allowed to take a slight drop step (like heel to toe alignment) to help stabilize.  Just realize with your feet like that you are less stable side to side.  You will also find that balance gets better as your core gets stronger.


When you get the timing right it is a great lift and you feel awesome busting out reps at 225lbs, and then slamming it down when you are done!

Yup, hips, knees and ankles.

You have a smart phone?  Download instagram, use it's video feature, upload, then post the url here.  Pretty simple.

Youtube is pain in the ass for me, unless I'm doing it wrong.  Take video, save to computer, edit the vid, then convert to what youtube can use, then upload to youtube.  

Here's my chubby ginger self performing the Miley Cyrus "Wrecking Ball" version of a clean.  So, not very clean.  


Dirty Clean.

ETA- Looks like I can't get the video to play in the post from Photobucket, you'll have to work for it.

You fail at internetting.

video

Having a hell of a time.  Safari shuts down when I try to hit link, never had that problem before.

http://s981.photobucket.com/user/SCW-Shooter/media/0731151140.mp4.html

It looks like I got the first one fixed but Kaiks is still busted for me.

-Lower the hips in your starting POS
-You have early arm bend
-Feet too wide in the catch
-Catching in your toes/hips too far forward in the catch. Send hips back, into a partial squat when you catch, weight in the heels.
-Catch on shoulders (like we already discussed).

It's Russian Nationals this week so.......

Watch Viktor.  
The first pull (floor to knee) notice how his back angle stays the same, his shoulder stay over the bar, and his knees push back out of the way.

The second pull (knee to full extension), see how his shoulders stay over the bar and now the hips come through to the "power position," knees bent, bar at mid thigh (we could have a side discussion about the Russians and the double knee bend or scoop, but).  Now the explosion up or the good ole' jump and shrug.......
(3:03)


Now watch Oleg (3:00)



I know I posted Pendlay's learning the clean vids on another thread, but I'll mention them again.  Learning the clean (or snatch) is really easier from the top down.  Watch the vid again, learn those positions, takes some more vids and then start to put it together off the floor.

Thanks Tanren37 and RoG.  

Seeing myself really helped too, I'll keep working on this over the next few weeks and get some vids when I can.

I think I'll go back to just what Pendlay was working on in that first video, getting the bar racked.  I'll also focus on leaving the arms looser and use the jump to lift the weight.

Good feedback, I appreciate it.

Hell yeah, keep at it.  Go through the positions as part of your general warm up, use the bar or even a just pvc or wood stick.

It takes years to develop such as simplistic movement, and you can see that in elite lifters that have been doing it since:

Well I really hit the cleans today after my deadlift workout (which came after my ladder sprint race).  

Here's what I focused on-

Catching the bar on the delts.  I realized that with more arm/elbow speed and a 'pinch' with my shoulders I could catch an empty bar pretty well like the Pendlay video.  Great practice.  I did them until I was catching well on nearly every lift.

I then worked up on some cleans starting with 75lbs and found I could still catch it pretty well, keep my hips down and leave my arms 'noodley'.  I found that the better I was about leaving the arms loose the faster I could whip the elbows under the bar.  That was a good que for me, helps a lot to remember what went wrong.

I did cleans at 115lbs, 135lbs and 145lbs and found the heavier I got the easier it was to keep the arms limp, otherwise I would blow the lift badly.  As I got to the end of about 10 cleans at 145 I was getting tired and found I had to get lower and lower to get under the bar...another light bulb moment from all the videos and pics posted here.

So my last cleans were probably the best, but I didn't get any video.  I wasn't catching them perfect, but I was able to get my arms under the bar about 80% of the way as I caught it, but since I was still letting it settle as the bar and I were going into a deep squat I was able to get a great position to squat it back up.

In other words-
Thanks.  Huge improvement on the clean although I know it will take a coach and a few months or years to really have a 'good' clean.  I feel like I can start moving up in weight as I work it now, my arms are slightly tired and the rest of me is beat.  I am doing the lift more like it's a single pull rather than one from the ground and one from the knees, but I'll get better.  Saturday I'll work on it without being tired from other lifts or running.


Next step- getting my arms locked out better on the OHS.

Cool.

Everyone response differently for different cues, so, here's another for what it's worth.

A successful clean only needs to be pulled to the navel.  A snatch, to the nipples.  

This is generalized of course, but the Chinese found that, roughly speaking, a clean only needs to be pulled to the height of the navel to successfully get under the bar.  What I took from it was that as long as I kept the bar close and went to full extension, I really didn't have to pull the bar that high to get under it.

That actually makes a lot of sense.  I found I was simply pulling too hard and it made catching a bar that wanted to go over my head sorta difficult

All the squatting and cleans have made my knees really achy so I've been slower getting low (or tying my shoes or picking up a dime on the floor or....).  I think as I improve on my timing it will continue to improve.  

I haven't decided what my next stage of development should be.  With a goal of a 200+ pound snatch in however long it takes to get there, I started with the clean and OHS.  OHS is not great, I have trouble keeping the arms locked out even with an empty bar.

I'm thinking of adding some push-press into my workouts as I continue with the clean and OHS.  Next step will probably be a jerk, the idea of tossing around a bar overhead is intimidating right now.

I'm going to bump this because I had some breakthroughs today on catching the clean.  

The coach I've now seen twice made two very subtle changes to my clean that made my catch easily appear directly over my shoulders.  Here are the cues he gave me-

- keep the shoulders directly above the bar, which requires me to be forward slightly at the jump/2nd pull position.  This allows me to put a lot more back into the bar and because I'm starting earlier, when I pull the bar high it ends right at the shoulder.  Same principle on the snatch, except he's got me keeping my shoulders out in front of the bar for both the first and second pull on the snatch.  Again, when done right my working weights seem easy, little effort at all and it's suddenly in the right spot.

- keeping the legs a little straighter at the 2nd pull position.  This seemed wrong to me because it gave me less pull distance during the second pull, but in truth when combined with the cue of keeping the chest moving up straight on the second pull, the bar stays tight to my body and it's incredibly easy to get the weight way up- without it moving to the front where I can't catch it perfectly.

- weight evenly on the feet. Seems obvious, but even during the second pull keeping the weight even keeps the load from transferring to the quads and toes where it's imbalanced.  By keeping the chest moving straight up and the weight evenly on the feet, I'm really balance and can catch the bar without doing anything but flipping my arms under.  He has some drills he wants to work in coming weeks that basically keep the bar loaded at 110% of working weight and keep the feet loaded to force a perfect lift, otherwise with the feet not moving you can't get to it.  

Anyway, I'm still not pulling much weight, the coach recommended that I only lift weight I can do perfectly and I've decided to listen to him for the time being, but I don't want that to get around.  Don't tell my wife I'm following instructions.  

In the past two weeks I've added 40lbs to my working weights on the clean and snatch.  No clue on my maxes, but I won't be shooting for a max until I just work up to them legitimately with natural improvement.

That's awesome.

The discussion about leg angle on the second pull is interesting one when talking about the "double knee bend" or the "scoop."  

When Klokov and Polovnikov did some seminars in the states the question came up, they both seemed puzzled, like it was not something they ever heard of.  Watch most Russians lift and you'll see the lack of a double knee bend.  Contrary to that, watch the Chinese or Koreans literally scoop heavy cleans.

Just another one of those instances where record weights are moved using polar opposite techniques.

Thanks.

When I posted that I went back and re-read the advise on this thread and it all pretty much matched what the coach said....  But I thought I was doing it!  For example, especially when just starting the second pull I've found what it should feel like to be over the bar enough.  Just telling myself to keep shoulders over the bar wasn't enough.  Cues like pulling my chest straight up during the snatch also helped me stay straight up rather than jumping forward slightly.

As I've practiced and played with the positions I found that as long as I'm in the correct spot for the start of the second pull, I can catch both a clean and a snatch nearly perfect.  If I'm off at the start of that pull, the clean is out front and the snatch is floating in the breeze somewhere.  The coach has really been emphasizing putting a clean up that requires no movement but a dip in the hips to get a perfect catch.

The coach did note that I have a tendency to perform the lift with my back as it's proportionately stronger.  That keeps me a bit lopsided and I end up catching while up on my toes and tossing the bar in front.  I took that to mean I can quit doing dead lifts, lol.

These are definitely fun lifts.  The nuances that make big changes in capacity is a lot of fun to see, from my position as a total newb.

Great day at the gym today, I started with cleans at 95lbs but my wrist is sore so I did snatches instead.  Then I bumped them up to 115lbs and finally to 135lbs and they were still going up great and I was still catching them very easily.  I ended up getting 8 snatches at 135 in 11 attempts, missed the first three then got 8 in a row.

That means I have jumped from 75lbs to 135lbs doing them correctly in two and a half weeks.  That 200lb snatch is looking more and more possible every day.  I'll have to figure out why I can't OHS though, I can't simply power snatch 200lbs, I'll have to squat under it.  But I can't stand up with them still, uncomfortable as hell and I just can't stand up.

Were you powering the 135's today?

What is uncomfortable, ankles, knees, hips, shoulders?  Why can't you stand up, leg strength or just the position?

Powers for new lifters is another "hot" topic.  In one sense, it's great for timing, turnover and reaching full extension.  But on the other hand, it ingrains "laziness" getting under a heavy bar and really turn into missed reps at the proper catch positions.  If the lifter is naturally aggressive under the bar it's one thing, but you need to build that confidence in a rock bottom catch.

Glad you found a good place to lift.  It should really accelerate the learning curve.

I am able to squat part way down on the snatch.  I'm not sure where the line between a low power snatch and a crappy squat snatch is, but I'm betting it's closer to a power snatch.  I found that if I'm really ambitious about getting the weight moving on the second pull I only have to dip down 6" or so to get under it, then just stand up.

RE: OHS- I'd say the most uncomfortable is the torso and hips.  Oddly enough I have pretty good flexibility and can drop into a very deep squat with bodyweight or an empty bar, but with the arms overhead I hurt through the torso and have no power.  Even with light weights, like 115lbs.

Funny you mention laziness- I found that when I increase weight I miss the lifts a few times because I'm lethargic about getting-that-damn-bar-up-right-the-hell-now and it takes a try or two to convince me of the speed and energy I need to use to move the weight.  Every time I've missed one so far it's been when I get lethargic about the second pull.  I can completely see where you are coming from regarding getting lazy about ducking under the bar.  I tried several times to duck under to catch, just trying to slowly duck lower and lower, but I can catch it and not be able to stand back up.  For whatever reason the coach didn't seem to worried about my OHS at this point, so I'll just keep my OHS up high and trying to get lower and lower.  I've also started keeping my feet a little closer together on the jump, which seems to make the OHS a little less uncomfortable.  As LawyerUp mentioned in the other thread, I think I'm losing some ability with a wide stance.  I've also tried the OHS with the close stance and it still doesn't work however.

The gym I've found is only 80 miles from home, but if the coach quits in December as he mentioned there is another called praxis strength training that I could get to, although it's further from home and far, far more expensive.

The power snatch thing might come from my own experience.  When it gets heavy I would mentally bitch up right below the knees.  My snatch really never went anywhere until one day I was doing heavy snatch pulls then switched to snatches.  Something about dealing with heavier weights lead to understanding about letting the weight "float" as I got under vs. pulling the bar up then pulling my self under equally.

My oly coach doesn't have any of his lifters OHS.  As he puts it, the limiting factor is not going to be squatting it up, it's going to be pulling the bar into place.  I do OHS already in my CF programming.  I see the value of getting comfortable with that weight overhead in awkward positions.  I also think it strengthens all the little muscles and tendons that are necessary for a heavier snatch.  You can also strengthen these muscles by using a yoke overhead though.  But the pull is going to be the limiting factor, as it is with me since I can OHS way, way more than I can snatch.

I just think about ripping the head off of something in the pull.  Getting angry.  One of the things that has improved my pull BTW is a kipping hip to bar pullup.  Do one forward hollow-rock kip, then pull your hip up to the pullup bar.  Same damn muscles you use to pull the barbell.  Same mental game too.  If you can't get your hips up there, try to get your chest to bar.

Interesting about the OHS.  Hopefully I get it figured out soon so it won't limit me once I get to weights I can't pull up high enough to get under.

Kipping hip-to-bar pullups.  Is this one of those bodyweight stupid human tricks you were talking about before?  I'm not even sure what that would look like, would I land on my head or should I use straps so I can rip my arms off and get tangled up in my own gore?  I'm half as coordinated as the average palsy patient.

After I did my snatches I went home and got some dinner, helped the kids with their math and ended up going back to the gym late (too much preworkout drink loaded with caffeine before the snatches) and did some heavy (for me) squats and OHP.  Ended up at a 335lb squat where I dropped as deep as I could, all the way to my ankles twice.  On the third rep I didn't get it back up from the bottom, just nothing left in the tank but caffeine and as much as I try, I can't use it to push weights.  Got a triple with 150lbs on the OHP too.

Today I'm so sore I can hardly drive.  Those snatches worked me from my forearms to my calves and every single damn muscle in between.  First time I've been sore in months.  At least I'm only leaving for a 20hr drive to Oklahoma tonight.  Lots of time to work out the soreness....  I had a muscle spasm in my leg that lasted for about 15 hours from last night till this afternoon, even my wife laughed at it.

It's the same movement as a bar muscle-up.  Look at some youtube videos of them.  There's a forward rock, with your feet/legs extended behind you, then as you rock backwards, you pull hard and bring your hips to the pullup bar.  Then you just come back down.  Singles.  You're going to want to build up to it though it might be hard on your shoulders if you don't do a lot of pullups.

I'll try it when I get back home, I've been doing 100 pull ups a week as part of the 5/3/1 accessories.  I can't get all 50 in a day without using a band still, but I should be able to try one of your circus tricks.

It will be good to be one the way to muscle ups too.  I don't know if I will ever do crossfit at the local gym, but I do want to be able to hold my own in an adult gym class if I needed to someday.  No idea why I would...

It's not a huge kip that would give cake an aneurysm.  Just one forward rock that tightens and activates your lats, then a big pull as hard as you can.

I heard my name.

You have to be a real bad ass not to kip muscle ups.

My wife teaches these amazing little gymnasts, teaches them ballet.  Anyways, they came in to do rope climbs a few days back.  They would start sitting, do an L sit, and then climb up the rope using just their arms.  Really impressive.  So next they do max pullups.  They're like 8 years old or so.  They started kipping.  But it was different, then would kick their feet way up high out in front of them, then roll forward up to the bar.  It was pretty cool.  Tried to do it.  Nope.

Like butterfly kips?

Another clean related question for you folks-

I'm getting much more mobility on the front rack, I can keep the bar in my fingers really well most of the time, but occasionally my pinky finger(s) will pop out so I have three fingers on the bar and elbows are very high.  The front squat is more comfortable than ever, no problems keeping the bar on the shoulders/deltoids.  

When transitioning to a hand position for the jerk, I'm having a hard time getting hands on the bar and keeping it on the deltoids.  What I've been doing is just keeping the fingers under the bar and using the bounce to lift it, then repositioning my hands in the air in time to catch it.

This intuitively seems stupid like I'm going to end up with a 230lb barbel on the top of my head and getting coloring books for Christmas, while ending up 4" shorter than my current height.

Today I played around with it for a while and couldn't find a way to reposition while keeping the weight on the shoulders.  

I can get a video of my inflexible uncoordinated spastic self if needed.  I watched a zillion vids from hook grip over the weekend, but it seems they are able to reposition without taking the weight off the shoulder.  Maybe still a mobility issue for me?

I do know people who do what you say, but I can't do that, and really wouldn't want to.  After standing up the clean.  I just give the bar a little bounce and reposition my hands to a full grip.  Then begin the dip for the jerk with hands already in place.  Or if the weight is relatively light, I usually still have a hook grip, like doing unbroken sets of C&J.  Because I need to maintain the hook grip to lower the bar for the next rep.  The only time I will sometimes do it the way you suggested, is with light weight, like 95# thrusters.  The weight is not really enough to bend my wrists back, so I have to transition from my fingers to palm every rep, which is not difficult with light weight.

No, they can't really be repeated in multiple reps.  Each would have to be a single because there's no repeatable pattern to it.  Just raise their legs up there, and then the legs drop and upper body comes up.  

So....  More flexibility.  I can't keep a hook grip at the rack position, although I'm close.  I worked up to about 150lbs today just trying to get the feel for what would work.  Much less than 95lbs and I can't even rack the bar on my shoulders very well, but the heavier weights don't seem to stay on the shoulders when I re-position my hands.  With 150 I can hold the weight in front of my chest off the shoulders and get a great grip, but obviously that's a terrible idea.

Yup, keep working on the mobility, but.....

You can play with the geometries a little too.  Here's an extreme example; Luis Mosquera (or watch any current Columbian lifter)



He catches on the finger tips, but then resets with a very wide grip (damn near snatch width) for the jerk.  You can argue the merits and pitfalls of such a grip, but point is, the rack position depends on several things.  Mobility, shoulder position, humerus and forearm lengths, grip width, elbow angle, etc.

Play around with it, you might find something that really works.

That seems so easy, he just moves his hands out and jerks it.  I'll have to shoot some video and find out how I've made this so hard for myself, it seems like when I take both hands off the bar it wants to come off the front, I'm thinking maybe I've got my shoulders back a bit.

I did play around with moving my pulling grip out wider today and I liked it a lot.  I've been maybe 3/4" outside of the inside edge of the knurling, now I'm more like 2 1/2" away from the edge, which is more like where I do my OHP anyway.  
The jerk itself is going really well, as of right now if I can get it up I can jerk it.  Wait, that sounded all wrong...  If it's not too hard to pull I'll jerk it no problem.

The instructor for the class I have been taking is moving to Arizona, so I've potentially got two classes left, but he's cancelled the last two at the last moment so I might be done and back to looking for a coach again.

OK, another followup question.

I worked on the grip a lot today and found that if I stretch out really well first I can keep a hook grip (barely) at the rack position.  I loaded up a bar today at chest height and just worked on getting into the best position I could, pressing my arms into the bar until it was on the shoulders with full grip.

So I think I can (soon, not quite yet) catch a clean with my grip pretty well intact, with the bar still in my palms on the shoulders.  Awesome.

Is there really any reason to have the bar positioned over the wrist/forearms?  I can't give the bar a push, or at least not much of one, when it's in the hands without the arms under it.  But I got thinking I probably don't want to, as long as I have good control of the bar (in the palms) I can use the bounce/drop of the jerk to lock out without trying to give it any push.  Is this correct?  

The big advantage of keeping the palms on the bar is 1- don't have to worry about getting my pinky finger back around to the other side and 2- seems like a safer way to control the weight overhead in the event something goes wrong.

What movement is more efficient at pushing the bar up and the body down, a press or a tricep extension?

That makes sense.  I've been jerking wrong I think, I've mostly been doing a fast push press instead of popping the bar up and locking out under it, I thought I was just old, fat and slow.  Turns out I'm old, fat, slow and doing it wrong.

I think I'll try to get some video of my cleans this week or next week.  Since I've started this thread I've learned an awful lot and the weight I'm cleaning is far higher now, so I'd like to see the finer details.  I watched a video this morning that showed some detail on how your knees should be under the par 1/2 way through the second pull and the weight on the heels, which I'm not sure I'm doing at all right now.  I've got the shoulder and hip position cleaned up a lot since I've started and my catch is doing very well.

Side note, my wife cleaned and jerked her new PR yesterday, 75lbs which is right about 50% of her deadlift max.  My max C&J is 200, which is a bit less than 50% of my deadlift max.  I feel like I've got a lot more capacity for the clean though, I'm just doing something wrong still and limiting myself.  Usually I get excited about trying to set a new PR and end up blowing the lift by using arms to hoist it instead of waiting for the bar to come up on it's own.

You mean the "scoop" or the "double knee bend" of the second pull?  Funny thing, watch Chinese or Columbian lifter and you'll see the scoop, where as with Russian's or Pol's it's more of the quick rebend.  Tian is good example or a scoop.



Apti more of a double bend:



For ratios, Russian's research.
http://breakingmuscle.com/olympic-weightlifting/why-you-need-to-know-your-squat-to-clean-and-jerk-ratio

Squat : C&J = 131%
Front Squat : C&J = 105%+
C&J : Snatch = 80%

Often you might read Rip go on a tangent of "just get stronger!"  Well, sure, if you don't give a shit about weightlifting.  But if you want to snatch and C&J as much as possible, you need to know what needs work.  If you squat 180 but C&J only 60, you might need to work on technique more than squatting strength.

There's a local weightlifting club up here with a moto, "beware the fury of the patient man."  Try it next time you lift.