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 theinvisibleheart 
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Joined: Feb 2006  GA, USA
 Posts: 2307 Feedback: 100% (121) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:06:30 AM
Originally Posted By Hank:
Go away. +1 your parents and America would be PROUD OF YOU! |
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Hank
Fancy Shoes - NOV Legion
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Joined: Apr 2001 TN, USA
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Posted: 6/29/2012 12:10:06 AM
what.
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RolandofGilead
The stars burning bright, in the forest of night..
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Posted: 6/29/2012 12:10:23 AM
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart: Originally Posted By Hank: Go away. +1 your parents and America would be PROUD OF YOU! You're getting the reaction you do because: 1. You don't make sense most of the time
2. You link millions of studies, but seem incapable of rational discussion
3. You change the subject
4. You quote people's posts and "respond" to them, but your response has little to nothing to do with their post...this thread is a great example of that
We don't care that you have differing views- we have power lifters, endurance runners, triathletes, P90xers, CFers, etc- and we all have different views, and yet we all get along about 99% of the time. If you're wondering why nobody gets along with YOU and YOU alone, perhaps you should look in the mirror. |
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RatherBeLifting
NOV Legion
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Joined: Sep 2010 TX, USA
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Posted: 6/29/2012 12:11:54 AM
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart:
Originally Posted By Hank:
Go away. +1 your parents and America would be PROUD OF YOU! Now you're launching a personal attack against someone's family. Stay classy. |
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theinvisibleheart
Member
Joined: Feb 2006 GA, USA
Posts: 2309 Feedback: 100% (121) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:13:27 AM
thanks.
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart:
Originally Posted By Hank:
Go away. +1 your parents and America would be PROUD OF YOU! You're getting the reaction you do because: 1. You don't make sense most of the time 2. You link millions of studies, but seem incapable of rational discussion 3. You change the subject 4. You quote people's posts and "respond" to them, but your response has little to nothing to do with their post...this thread is a great example of that We don't care that you have differing views- we have power lifters, endurance runners, triathletes, P90xers, CFers, etc- and we all have different views, and yet we all get along about 99% of the time. If you're wondering why nobody gets along with YOU and YOU alone, perhaps you should look in the mirror. |
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theinvisibleheart
Member
Joined: Feb 2006 GA, USA
Posts: 2310 Feedback: 100% (121) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:13:58 AM
so congratulations=personal attack, LOL?!
Originally Posted By RatherBeLifting:
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart:
Originally Posted By Hank:
Go away. +1 your parents and America would be PROUD OF YOU! Now you're launching a personal attack against someone's family. Stay classy. |
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Hank
Fancy Shoes - NOV Legion
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2001 TN, USA
Posts: 21918 Feedback: 100% (112) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:15:47 AM
Originally Posted By RatherBeLifting:
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart:
Originally Posted By Hank:
Go away. +1 your parents and America would be PROUD OF YOU! Now you're launching a personal attack against someone's family. Stay classy. I don't know what that is. It's hard to be offended by this level of... I don't know. |
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RolandofGilead
The stars burning bright, in the forest of night..
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Joined: Oct 2003 USA
Posts: 12167 Feedback: 100% (17) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:17:37 AM
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart: thanks. Originally Posted By RolandofGilead: Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart: Originally Posted By Hank: Go away. +1 your parents and America would be PROUD OF YOU! You're getting the reaction you do because: 1. You don't make sense most of the time
2. You link millions of studies, but seem incapable of rational discussion
3. You change the subject
4. You quote people's posts and "respond" to them, but your response has little to nothing to do with their post...this thread is a great example of that
We don't care that you have differing views- we have power lifters, endurance runners, triathletes, P90xers, CFers, etc- and we all have different views, and yet we all get along about 99% of the time. If you're wondering why nobody gets along with YOU and YOU alone, perhaps you should look in the mirror. You're welcome. |
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theinvisibleheart
Member
Joined: Feb 2006 GA, USA
Posts: 2311 Feedback: 100% (121) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:18:09 AM
I'm not sure if BMI fails to work for most folks with muscle. I do know that it doesn't work 100% but my understanding is that BMI is an estimator, not 100%, of body fat.
What I would like to see is hydrostatic weighing of folks where BMI fails to see what the actual body fat percentage is. In most cases where I've seen BMI fails, broad shoulder/narrow waist definition did not fit. Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart:
if you're 5'10" and 227lb, while it's theoretically possible to be lean and fit, it's unlikely unless the guy is a gym rat and does serious weight training/resistance drill. You can't concentrate on exception/minority cases and take it to be representative. Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart:
Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
Indeed, it's just a dot. I'm 5' 10" and presently 227 lbs. In my 40s. I don't remember my last BMI, though the Army lists me as obese, but I am a long way from fat. In fact, if I lost more than 10 lbs. I don't think I would like it. Recent BP was 116/66 with RHR of 66 at ~6000' ASL. I run less than 10 miles a week lately. While BMI is less than a perfect measure of health, it's actually predictive of body fat percentage. You can be fit and still be obese, that is, have high body fat percentage. However, if you do have HIGH PERCENTAGE OF BODY FAT(that is what "obese" means), it means you are at risk for various negative health factors tied to obesity like cancer, diabetes, etc. However, that doesn't mean you'll get it immediately or all at once. We all understand that it's predictive- we're merely pointing out that it's a terrible at it for those with any muscle mass. And none of that contradicts anything I said, which was that BMI sucks for anybody with very much muscle mass...which you seem to agree with. |
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Hank
Fancy Shoes - NOV Legion
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Joined: Apr 2001 TN, USA
Posts: 21919 Feedback: 100% (112) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:19:50 AM
Oh my god.
I have to go to bed. |
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RatherBeLifting
NOV Legion
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Joined: Sep 2010 TX, USA
Posts: 538 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:22:44 AM
Originally Posted By Hank:
Originally Posted By RatherBeLifting:
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart:
Originally Posted By Hank:
Go away. +1 your parents and America would be PROUD OF YOU! Now you're launching a personal attack against someone's family. Stay classy. I don't know what that is. It's hard to be offended by this level of... I don't know. Fine you fuckers....I'm sure I'll get the ban for this. 
I'm getting the idea he/it is a bot of some kind. His sentence structure is strange. He quotes but never addresses anything or refutes anything. It's all very odd. Why would a 2006 member be posting here out of the blue? |
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RolandofGilead
The stars burning bright, in the forest of night..
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Joined: Oct 2003 USA
Posts: 12168 Feedback: 100% (17) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:22:49 AM
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart: I'm not sure if BMI fails to work for most folks with muscle. I do know that it doesn't work 100% but my understanding is that BMI is an estimator, not 100%, of body fat. What I would like to see is hydrostatic weighing of folks where BMI fails to see what the actual body fat percentage is. In most cases where I've seen BMI fails, broad shoulder/narrow waist definition did not fit. What I know is that the crowd I run around with would mostly be in the middle of the overweight category, but we're all fit and have low BF percentages...I fully admit that this is not normal, as these are all friends from my gym. I'm sitting here tonight at 27.3 BMI, and I am not fat. BMI is ok for general population, but I would wager that anyone who has a reasonable amount of muscle is going to come in the overweight category- possibly even obese- and yet can still be fit and healthy.
It would be interesting to see actual BF%.... |
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Hank
Fancy Shoes - NOV Legion
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2001 TN, USA
Posts: 21923 Feedback: 100% (112) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:26:44 AM
Originally Posted By RatherBeLifting:
Originally Posted By Hank:
Originally Posted By RatherBeLifting:
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart:
Originally Posted By Hank:
Go away. +1 your parents and America would be PROUD OF YOU! Now you're launching a personal attack against someone's family. Stay classy. I don't know what that is. It's hard to be offended by this level of... I don't know. Fine you fuckers....I'm sure I'll get the ban for this.
I'm getting the idea he/it is a bot of some kind. His sentence structure is strange. He quotes but never addresses anything or refutes anything. It's all very odd. Why would a 2006 member be posting here out of the blue? and now pushing the case he just dismissed or overlooked a page or two ago. No more stress for tonight. The T doc wants me to look at anti-cortisols as it is. |
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theinvisibleheart
Member
Joined: Feb 2006 GA, USA
Posts: 2313 Feedback: 100% (121) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:28:43 AM
fit=adequate strength+adequate cardio+adequate flexibility+adequate balance as an absolute minimum.
Not only that, recent study shows that lack of torso/core flexibility is tied to arterial stiffness which is a predictor of CVD. Most folks grossly underestimate their body fat percentage unless they measured it using hydrostatic weighing which most folks haven't. So your crowd measured their body fat via hydrostatic weighing and know that they all have adequate flexibility, balance, and cardio? I've seen seemingly skinny folks with high fat and strong folks with high fat. Also have seen folks with normal looking muscle who is incredibly strong. Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart:
I'm not sure if BMI fails to work for most folks with muscle. I do know that it doesn't work 100% but my understanding is that BMI is an estimator, not 100%, of body fat. What I would like to see is hydrostatic weighing of folks where BMI fails to see what the actual body fat percentage is. In most cases where I've seen BMI fails, broad shoulder/narrow waist definition did not fit. What I know is that the crowd I run around with would mostly be in the middle of the overweight category, but we're all fit and have low BF percentages...I fully admit that this is not normal, as these are all friends from my gym. I'm sitting here tonight at 27.3 BMI, and I am not fat. BMI is ok for general population, but I would wager that anyone who has a reasonable amount of muscle is going to come in the overweight category- possibly even obese- and yet can still be fit and healthy. It would be interesting to see actual BF%.... |
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Hank
Fancy Shoes - NOV Legion
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Joined: Apr 2001 TN, USA
Posts: 21924 Feedback: 100% (112) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:31:12 AM
I don't get it, but it's like a car accident. I can't stop watching.
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RolandofGilead
The stars burning bright, in the forest of night..
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Joined: Oct 2003 USA
Posts: 12170 Feedback: 100% (17) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:33:41 AM
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart: fit=adequate strength+adequate cardio+adequate flexibility+adequate balance as an absolute minimum. Not only that, recent study shows that lack of torso/core flexibility is tied to arterial stiffness which is a predictor of CVD. Most folks grossly underestimate their body fat percentage unless they measured it using hydrostatic weighing which most folks haven't. So your crowd measured their body fat via hydrostatic weighing and know that they all have adequate flexibility, balance, and cardio? I've seen seemingly skinny folks with high fat and strong folks with high fat. Also have seen folks with normal looking muscle who is incredibly strong. Originally Posted By RolandofGilead: Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart: I'm not sure if BMI fails to work for most folks with muscle. I do know that it doesn't work 100% but my understanding is that BMI is an estimator, not 100%, of body fat. What I would like to see is hydrostatic weighing of folks where BMI fails to see what the actual body fat percentage is. In most cases where I've seen BMI fails, broad shoulder/narrow waist definition did not fit. What I know is that the crowd I run around with would mostly be in the middle of the overweight category, but we're all fit and have low BF percentages...I fully admit that this is not normal, as these are all friends from my gym. I'm sitting here tonight at 27.3 BMI, and I am not fat. BMI is ok for general population, but I would wager that anyone who has a reasonable amount of muscle is going to come in the overweight category- possibly even obese- and yet can still be fit and healthy.
It would be interesting to see actual BF%.... Body fat- estimate, I'll grant you that, but visible abs usually indicate 10-12% Strength- 400# back squat, 170# strict press, 425# deadlift. Flexibility- 205# overhead squat below parallel, 215# snatch, and full ROM for all lifts. I'm not super flexible, but I'm adequately flexible.
Ran a 21:00min 3 mile with a broken toe, so cardio is ok.
Weight is 185# right now.
I'd say that's pretty fit.
What are your numbers? |
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theinvisibleheart
Member
Joined: Feb 2006 GA, USA
Posts: 2314 Feedback: 100% (121) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:36:28 AM
Originally Posted By RatherBeLifting:
Fine you fuckers....I'm sure I'll get the ban for this.
I'm getting the idea he/it is a bot of some kind. His sentence structure is strange. He quotes but never addresses anything or refutes anything. It's all very odd. Why would a 2006 member be posting here out of the blue? so posting here=bot? I never addresses anything or refute anything, LOL? That has to be a joke, right? Check the no. of replies I made in just one thread regarding China Study/Okinawa Program below. Check all the locked threads here for zillion refutations, LOL: 2 interesting diet books: China Study & Okinawa Program Comparison of Different Diets hooked on meat: thought on evolutionary roots of eating habit Can Athletes Perform Well on a Vegan Diet? NIH study: Mediterranean diet least likely to suffer from brain damage How hunter gatherers actually ate interesting way to sustain weight loss One of the best recent articles I've read on obesity/weight control or why we are so fat! |
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Hank
Fancy Shoes - NOV Legion
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Joined: Apr 2001 TN, USA
Posts: 21925 Feedback: 100% (112) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:37:30 AM
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Body fat- estimate, I'll grant you that, but visible abs usually indicate 10-12% Strength- 400# back squat, 170# strict press, 425# deadlift. Flexibility- 205# overhead squat below parallel, 215# snatch, and full ROM for all lifts. I'm not super flexible, but I'm adequately flexible. Ran a 21:00min 3 mile with a broken toe, so cardio is ok. Weight is 185# right now. I'd say that's pretty fit. What are your numbers? He's running a Pentium VI on quad 2.8G processors, couple gig of ram. on a 2400 baud modem. |
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Hank
Fancy Shoes - NOV Legion
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Joined: Apr 2001 TN, USA
Posts: 21926 Feedback: 100% (112) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:38:33 AM
You're involved in a bunch of locked threads. Weird.
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart:
Originally Posted By RatherBeLifting:
Fine you fuckers....I'm sure I'll get the ban for this.
I'm getting the idea he/it is a bot of some kind. His sentence structure is strange. He quotes but never addresses anything or refutes anything. It's all very odd. Why would a 2006 member be posting here out of the blue? so posting here=bot? I never addresses anything or refute anything, LOL? That has to be a joke, right? Check the no. of replies I made in just one thread regarding China Study/Okinawa Program below. Check all the locked threads here for zillion refutations, LOL: 2 interesting diet books: China Study & Okinawa Program Comparison of Different Diets hooked on meat: thought on evolutionary roots of eating habit Can Athletes Perform Well on a Vegan Diet? NIH study: Mediterranean diet least likely to suffer from brain damage How hunter gatherers actually ate interesting way to sustain weight loss One of the best recent articles I've read on obesity/weight control or why we are so fat! |
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Hank
Fancy Shoes - NOV Legion
Team Member
Joined: Apr 2001 TN, USA
Posts: 21927 Feedback: 100% (112) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:38:53 AM
Seriously. I have to go to bed.
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RatherBeLifting
NOV Legion
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Joined: Sep 2010 TX, USA
Posts: 539 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:41:44 AM
Originally Posted By Hank:
I don't get it, but it's like a car accident. I can't stop watching. 
I can't bring myself to ignore because the comedic value is too high. |
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RolandofGilead
The stars burning bright, in the forest of night..
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Joined: Oct 2003 USA
Posts: 12171 Feedback: 100% (17) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:45:16 AM
Originally Posted By RatherBeLifting: Originally Posted By Hank: I don't get it, but it's like a car accident. I can't stop watching. http://images.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/smilielol5.gif I can't bring myself to ignore because the comedic value is too high. I really enjoyed the part where he implied I was out of shape because my BMI is 27.3
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RatherBeLifting
NOV Legion
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Joined: Sep 2010 TX, USA
Posts: 540 Feedback: 0% (0) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:48:55 AM
Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Originally Posted By RatherBeLifting:
Originally Posted By Hank:
I don't get it, but it's like a car accident. I can't stop watching. http://images.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/smilielol5.gif I can't bring myself to ignore because the comedic value is too high. I really enjoyed the part where he implied I was out of shape because my BMI is 27.3 I'm pretty sure he's trolling for pictures of you and Rictus...well because everyone trolls for Rictus pictures.  |
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theinvisibleheart
Member
Joined: Feb 2006 GA, USA
Posts: 2315 Feedback: 100% (121) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:51:23 AM
I don't make any claim to be fit or unfit or educated or not educated since I regard it immaterial to argument.
Common way to measure strength is by doing some kind of standardized exercise with good form such as push up in fixed amount of time. Way to measure cardio is to do a cardio exercise, then measure pulse and see how long it takes to recover to normal resting rate. ROM/flexibility is usually done via toe reach or similar exercise. Hydrostatic weighing is the most accurate way to measure body fat. In my experience, weight training folks, unless they are national level body building competitors, tend to grossly underestimate their body fat. You do REALIZE that you can be overweight and LIFT WEIGHTS, right? You also REALIZE that you can be small and BE SUPER STRONG? Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart:
fit=adequate strength+adequate cardio+adequate flexibility+adequate balance as an absolute minimum. Not only that, recent study shows that lack of torso/core flexibility is tied to arterial stiffness which is a predictor of CVD. Most folks grossly underestimate their body fat percentage unless they measured it using hydrostatic weighing which most folks haven't. So your crowd measured their body fat via hydrostatic weighing and know that they all have adequate flexibility, balance, and cardio? I've seen seemingly skinny folks with high fat and strong folks with high fat. Also have seen folks with normal looking muscle who is incredibly strong. Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Originally Posted By theinvisibleheart:
I'm not sure if BMI fails to work for most folks with muscle. I do know that it doesn't work 100% but my understanding is that BMI is an estimator, not 100%, of body fat. What I would like to see is hydrostatic weighing of folks where BMI fails to see what the actual body fat percentage is. In most cases where I've seen BMI fails, broad shoulder/narrow waist definition did not fit. What I know is that the crowd I run around with would mostly be in the middle of the overweight category, but we're all fit and have low BF percentages...I fully admit that this is not normal, as these are all friends from my gym. I'm sitting here tonight at 27.3 BMI, and I am not fat. BMI is ok for general population, but I would wager that anyone who has a reasonable amount of muscle is going to come in the overweight category- possibly even obese- and yet can still be fit and healthy. It would be interesting to see actual BF%.... Body fat- estimate, I'll grant you that, but visible abs usually indicate 10-12% Strength- 400# back squat, 170# strict press, 425# deadlift. Flexibility- 205# overhead squat below parallel, 215# snatch, and full ROM for all lifts. I'm not super flexible, but I'm adequately flexible. Ran a 21:00min 3 mile with a broken toe, so cardio is ok. Weight is 185# right now. I'd say that's pretty fit. What are your numbers? |
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theinvisibleheart
Member
Joined: Feb 2006 GA, USA
Posts: 2316 Feedback: 100% (121) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/29/2012 12:52:57 AM
Originally Posted By RatherBeLifting:
I'm pretty sure he's trolling for pictures of you and Rictus...well because everyone trolls for Rictus pictures. why do I need to search for folks' pictures? |
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