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Hoplophile
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Posted: 3/20/2012 11:05:38 PM
Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:
I believe if we all ran different and wore minimalist shoes all the time our knee injury rates would go way down. Walking and running on your forefoot changes the way everything works all the way up through your hips. I'd probably still have my original ACLs if I'd always been working out in these.

I agree. As far back as high school I've never been able to get a good running routine down because after a week or two I get bad knee pain that leaves me limping when I walk. I've been running for a month with these and so far there is no knee pain. That first week they felt weird as I was trying to focus on not heel striking but after that I had things settled and now I'm just working on building endurance. Today I did 15 minutes at 6mph with no pauses, walked for a minute then went back to the 6mph pace for another 5 minutes. That's not much to most people but it's a personal best for me.

smithc6
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Posted: 3/20/2012 11:18:55 PM
Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:
I wear them working out, far too ugly to wear out IMO.

That being said it's not just that you need to work into them, you need to learn to run different. If you continue to heel strike no matter how long you take breaking in to them you will hurt yourself.

I wear them at the gym and do 15-20 minute runs in them.

I believe if we all ran different and wore minimalist shoes all the time our knee injury rates would go way down. Walking and running on your forefoot changes the way everything works all the way up through your hips. I'd probably still have my original ACLs if I'd always been working out in these.




Yeah and then our foot and calf injuries would go way up. This type of shoe, let alone form is not the cure all for running issues. People are always going to push themselves too far, too quickly and want/have to run the majority of their milage on asphalt/concrete. If this was a cure all, dont you think it would bigger than just 5% of the entire running market? Dont you think more studies would be coming out proving its better? SMH
"F that guy. F his apathetic old man. F everything he holds dear until it's bleeding from the ass and crying into a pillow." ~Evil_ATF on JustinWB
RolandofGilead
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Posted: 3/21/2012 12:16:55 AM
[Last Edit: 3/21/2012 12:17:09 AM by RolandofGilead]

Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:
I wear them working out, far too ugly to wear out IMO.

That being said it's not just that you need to work into them, you need to learn to run different. If you continue to heel strike no matter how long you take breaking in to them you will hurt yourself.

I wear them at the gym and do 15-20 minute runs in them.

I believe if we all ran different and wore minimalist shoes all the time our knee injury rates would go way down. Walking and running on your forefoot changes the way everything works all the way up through your hips. I'd probably still have my original ACLs if I'd always been working out in these.




Yeah and then our foot and calf injuries would go way up. This type of shoe, let alone form is not the cure all for running issues. People are always going to push themselves too far, too quickly and want/have to run the majority of their milage on asphalt/concrete. If this was a cure all, dont you think it would bigger than just 5% of the entire running market? Dont you think more studies would be coming out proving its better? SMH

I was thinking "SmithC in 3....2....1...."
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H46Driver
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Posted: 3/21/2012 5:46:52 AM
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:
I wear them working out, far too ugly to wear out IMO.

That being said it's not just that you need to work into them, you need to learn to run different. If you continue to heel strike no matter how long you take breaking in to them you will hurt yourself.

I wear them at the gym and do 15-20 minute runs in them.

I believe if we all ran different and wore minimalist shoes all the time our knee injury rates would go way down. Walking and running on your forefoot changes the way everything works all the way up through your hips. I'd probably still have my original ACLs if I'd always been working out in these.




Yeah and then our foot and calf injuries would go way up. This type of shoe, let alone form is not the cure all for running issues. People are always going to push themselves too far, too quickly and want/have to run the majority of their milage on asphalt/concrete. If this was a cure all, dont you think it would bigger than just 5% of the entire running market? Dont you think more studies would be coming out proving its better? SMH


Yeah, but the winners of the Boston, NY, and Chicago marathon all wore them (VFFs), right?

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Posted: 3/21/2012 8:53:37 AM
http://www.boston.com/yourtown/cambridge/articles/2011/01/09/youre_crazy/?page=1


Did you really run in those?” one asked.

“I did.”

“We used to run barefoot to school every day, until we got shoes in high school,” he said. “But we used to run on dirt and grass. We would never run like that on pavement.”

He paused and laughed. “You’re crazy.”



Caveat Emptor
smithc6
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Posted: 3/21/2012 10:30:02 AM
Originally Posted By H46Driver:
Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:
I wear them working out, far too ugly to wear out IMO.

That being said it's not just that you need to work into them, you need to learn to run different. If you continue to heel strike no matter how long you take breaking in to them you will hurt yourself.

I wear them at the gym and do 15-20 minute runs in them.

I believe if we all ran different and wore minimalist shoes all the time our knee injury rates would go way down. Walking and running on your forefoot changes the way everything works all the way up through your hips. I'd probably still have my original ACLs if I'd always been working out in these.




Yeah and then our foot and calf injuries would go way up. This type of shoe, let alone form is not the cure all for running issues. People are always going to push themselves too far, too quickly and want/have to run the majority of their milage on asphalt/concrete. If this was a cure all, dont you think it would bigger than just 5% of the entire running market? Dont you think more studies would be coming out proving its better? SMH


Yeah, but the winners of the Boston, NY, and Chicago marathon all wore them (VFFs), right?



heh heh

Lieberman is an idiot. Guess what buddy, we didnt have concrete a 1000 years ago.
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Posted: 3/21/2012 10:55:33 AM
My wife and I love ours...I have been wearing them for about two years now. I also have a pair of trail gloves that i wear to work daily, and she really likes her new balance minimus. The vff's are by far the most comfortable, but I can't wear them to work.

Just take it slow for the first couple of weeks. You are going to use and stress muscles/ligaments in your feet and legs your body forgot you had.
smithc6
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Posted: 3/21/2012 11:29:13 AM
Originally Posted By stewie97:
My wife and I love ours...I have been wearing them for about two years now. I also have a pair of trail gloves that i wear to work daily, and she really likes her new balance minimus. The vff's are by far the most comfortable, but I can't wear them to work.

Just take it slow for the first couple of weeks. You are going to use and stress muscles/ligaments in your feet and legs your body forgot you had.


Just out of curiosity, what would you tell people if you ran into a major injury down the road?
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Posted: 3/21/2012 1:11:28 PM
I never said it was a cure all for everything. But riddle me this, why would the human body be designed to need padded heels on shoes? Hominoids walked and ran without shoes for a few million years, man has only worn shoes for a few thousand and thick soles for only a few hundred and padded soles for less than a hundred.

Shoes protect the feet. In an attempt to make them comfortable we have introduced padding which has changed the way we walk and run and our bodies are reacting to that.

That being said I don't enjoy running on concrete with five fingers, (I don't like it with any shoe) I try to run on natural and uneven surfaces.

I am far far more stable in five fingers than anything else. The stability in my knees doesn't compare to with something with soles.

The injuries in them come from just what I said, you cannot continue to run like you did before. I only run 15-20 minutes in them because there is no way I could keep running correctly beyond that without seriously working on it.

They are not magic, buying them is the easy part. Relearning how to run, much harder.




Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:
I wear them working out, far too ugly to wear out IMO.

That being said it's not just that you need to work into them, you need to learn to run different. If you continue to heel strike no matter how long you take breaking in to them you will hurt yourself.

I wear them at the gym and do 15-20 minute runs in them.

I believe if we all ran different and wore minimalist shoes all the time our knee injury rates would go way down. Walking and running on your forefoot changes the way everything works all the way up through your hips. I'd probably still have my original ACLs if I'd always been working out in these.




Yeah and then our foot and calf injuries would go way up. This type of shoe, let alone form is not the cure all for running issues. People are always going to push themselves too far, too quickly and want/have to run the majority of their milage on asphalt/concrete. If this was a cure all, dont you think it would bigger than just 5% of the entire running market? Dont you think more studies would be coming out proving its better? SMH


smithc6
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Posted: 3/21/2012 1:22:27 PM
Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:
I never said it was a cure all for everything. But riddle me this, why would the human body be designed to need padded heels on shoes? Hominoids walked and ran without shoes for a few million years, man has only worn shoes for a few thousand and thick soles for only a few hundred and padded soles for less than a hundred.

Shoes protect the feet. In an attempt to make them comfortable we have introduced padding which has changed the way we walk and run and our bodies are reacting to that.

That being said I don't enjoy running on concrete with five fingers, (I don't like it with any shoe) I try to run on natural and uneven surfaces.

I am far far more stable in five fingers than anything else. The stability in my knees doesn't compare to with something with soles.

The injuries in them come from just what I said, you cannot continue to run like you did before. I only run 15-20 minutes in them because there is no way I could keep running correctly beyond that without seriously working on it.

They are not magic, buying them is the easy part. Relearning how to run, much harder.




Originally Posted By smithc6:
Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:
I wear them working out, far too ugly to wear out IMO.

That being said it's not just that you need to work into them, you need to learn to run different. If you continue to heel strike no matter how long you take breaking in to them you will hurt yourself.

I wear them at the gym and do 15-20 minute runs in them.

I believe if we all ran different and wore minimalist shoes all the time our knee injury rates would go way down. Walking and running on your forefoot changes the way everything works all the way up through your hips. I'd probably still have my original ACLs if I'd always been working out in these.




Yeah and then our foot and calf injuries would go way up. This type of shoe, let alone form is not the cure all for running issues. People are always going to push themselves too far, too quickly and want/have to run the majority of their milage on asphalt/concrete. If this was a cure all, dont you think it would bigger than just 5% of the entire running market? Dont you think more studies would be coming out proving its better? SMH




Ive run shod for over 20 years with no issues what so ever. This goes back to a post I posted in a different thread. Its ridiculous how people who have tried these shoes connect the dots. Let me rehash here in my last post.

You all want to praise the shoes for these fixes, when its the form change that did you the most good. It does not matter what kind of shoes you wear, or where youre running, if your form sucks, youre going to run into issues. Thats why most of you guys were having issues before. (that or your training regimen was horrible)
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Posted: 3/21/2012 2:16:56 PM

So running resumes are required to discuss this? Who cares how long you've been running? I'm also not interested in "rehashing" anything.

If you want to discuss anything with me, then discuss what I'm saying not every argument by every person to own five fingers, I'm not them nor do I care to defend their positions.

99% of the action pistol shooting world shot weaver 30 years ago, so what do I care what market share minimalist shoes compose? It's not a relevant data point to prove anything.

Stability of the entire structure is a completely different issue from running form. Yes I think forefoot striking is safer, and these shoes and running barefoot etc force that on you. So yes form is more important than shoes,, no where in anything I said was some statement that the shoes alone were some sort of magic. For me it was surprising to remember how we used to run in track and cross country as opposed to what I'd been doing the last 25 years once I starting road running.

 But being stable from being flat on the ground as intended has noting to do with running. As I said, I work out in them and I know my knees are happier and much more stable than in shoes that put me off the ground. I would probably be healthier if I wore them all the time but there is no way they would be socially acceptable in my life and work.

Until I started working out and running bare I had no idea how much my stability had been compromised over the years. My coordination in all things concerning my feet and legs has gone WAY up since going barefoot. 

It's hard to remember how coordinated you were as a child and how free your movement was. For me once I started with FF and bare I could feel the difference. It was startling how clunky I had become.

My peer group who wears them are older and all have had a very athletic lives with lots of destruction being brought upon their bodies, wether from SOF service to collegiate football etc. besides the fashion issues they'd all be wearing them all the time, except when specialty footwear is required. 

Are they the answer to everything and all problems? No of course not. Could a person injure themselves from using them wrong? Sure, same could be said for a weight set and any athletic endeavor. 

I've personally been motivated enough by using them that I have gone much more "minimalistic" in all my footwear, and have been much happier closer to the ground. 
smithc6
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Posted: 3/21/2012 2:46:26 PM
Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:

So running resumes are required to discuss this? Who cares how long you've been running? I'm also not interested in "rehashing" anything.

If you want to discuss anything with me, then discuss what I'm saying not every argument by every person to own five fingers, I'm not them nor do I care to defend their positions.

99% of the action pistol shooting world shot weaver 30 years ago, so what do I care what market share minimalist shoes compose? It's not a relevant data point to prove anything.

Stability of the entire structure is a completely different issue from running form. Yes I think forefoot striking is safer, and these shoes and running barefoot etc force that on you. So yes form is more important than shoes,, no where in anything I said was some statement that the shoes alone were some sort of magic. For me it was surprising to remember how we used to run in track and cross country as opposed to what I'd been doing the last 25 years once I starting road running.

 But being stable from being flat on the ground as intended has noting to do with running. As I said, I work out in them and I know my knees are happier and much more stable than in shoes that put me off the ground. I would probably be healthier if I wore them all the time but there is no way they would be socially acceptable in my life and work.

Until I started working out and running bare I had no idea how much my stability had been compromised over the years. My coordination in all things concerning my feet and legs has gone WAY up since going barefoot. 

It's hard to remember how coordinated you were as a child and how free your movement was. For me once I started with FF and bare I could feel the difference. It was startling how clunky I had become.

My peer group who wears them are older and all have had a very athletic lives with lots of destruction being brought upon their bodies, wether from SOF service to collegiate football etc. besides the fashion issues they'd all be wearing them all the time, except when specialty footwear is required. 

Are they the answer to everything and all problems? No of course not. Could a person injure themselves from using them wrong? Sure, same could be said for a weight set and any athletic endeavor. 

I've personally been motivated enough by using them that I have gone much more "minimalistic" in all my footwear, and have been much happier closer to the ground. 


Who said anything about a resume? I answered a question that you posed with a personal experience like you did. You demonize the shod shoe because of the issues you've been dealing with your entire life. I gave you a personal anecdote of mine that says otherwise. You say barefoot isnt a fix all and that form is important, yet you continue to blame the shod shoes for all your problems. How does that work? You cant agree with me saying you think form is important, but still blame your previous issues on the shoe. Im sorry you made the wrong choice for footwear in years past, but I think its time to reflect a little rather than blaming your misfortunes on a type of shoe.
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Posted: 3/21/2012 3:29:36 PM
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/making-the-case-for-running-shoes/


The study, conducted by researchers at the University of Colorado in Boulder, began by recruiting 12 well-trained male runners with extensive barefoot running experience...

But for the new study, Dr. Kram and his colleagues wanted to use a relatively lightweight, cushioned shoe. They chose the Nike Mayfly, a model that, as the name intimates, is a flyweight, barely reaching 150 grams...

When barefoot runners and shod runners carried the same weight on their feet, barefoot running used almost 4 percent more energy during every step than running in shoes...

even when unweighted barefoot running was compared foot-to-foot with running in the Mayflies, the shoes won out. For 8 of the 12 runners, wearing shoes remained slightly more efficient than being barefoot, even though the shoes added more weight...

It’s important to note that the study looked only at the metabolic efficiency of wearing shoes, compared with going barefoot. The scientists didn’t evaluate the common claim that barefoot running lowers injury risk...

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Posted: 3/21/2012 3:37:38 PM
I run the classics, ,mostly a gym shoe and casual wear deal for me....when I wear mine out, I plan to get the merrells, the vibrams are cool, and I enjoy them, but it's time to try a new minimalist shoe.
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Posted: 3/22/2012 10:08:07 AM
[Last Edit: 3/22/2012 10:08:53 AM by H46Driver]
Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:
99% of the action pistol shooting world shot weaver 30 years ago, so what do I care what market share minimalist shoes compose? It's not a relevant data point to prove anything.


And how long did it take the majority of folks to transition to isosceles after somebody won a major competition?

Aero handlebars were relegated to triathletes and a few Race Across America riders, a fringe minority of cyclists, until they helped Greg LeMond win his second Tour de France. The next year they were ubiquitous. The point being, that even in a sport as bound by tradition as cycling, when something new or fringe is proven to "work", it quickly permeates the rest of the elite field.

The first time I heard of barefoot running was Zola Budd in the '84 Olympics. If barefoot running or extreme minimalist shoes clearly conveyed some performance advantage you can bet that the elites would quickly adopt such equipment/methods. The fact that they have not should give rational folks reason to ponder the perceived benefits purported by the manufacturers of such footwear or advocates of such methodology.

As far as injury prevention, the jury is still out. I would advise those considering VFFs, barefooting, or similar ideas to proceed with caution and to integrate them into overall training very slowly.

Sometimes I have to wonder if the reduction in injuries/pain that newbie minimalist runners experience is entirely or mostly due to the fact that those folks have to dramatically reduce their volume and intensity as a result of wearing less shoe.

If it's working for you, keep with it, but be cautious.

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Posted: 3/23/2012 4:05:24 PM
I have been wearing the Trek LS off and on for about the last 9 months or so. I'm just getting back to wearing them after winter (or the lack of) here in ohio. I mostly wear them to take the dog on walks and to the dog park. I wore them for probably 2 months straight last fall at work. I'm on my feet and on concrete all day in a warehouse and walk between 8-10 miles a day at work. When I was wearing the at work I definitely noticed an instant reduction in lower back pain just walking in them during that time. I also began to see changes in my calf muscles and muscles in my feet. I'm not saying that the shoes were the reason for this, but I feel like they helped a good bit.

I'll probably buy another pair this summer because the Treks are fading to almost gray from washing them so much.
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Posted: 3/25/2012 11:19:38 AM
I've had the KSOs for over a year now and have done every workout I do with them on. I really like them for my weighted workouts. They are absolutely fantastic for that sort of thing. I don't like them for any distance runs (more than a mile) or any plyo exercises. It just seems that my joints take a beating when doing those workouts in the VFFs. I absolutely love them for canoeing and being in the water. They fit tight enough around the ankles to keep any dirt, sand, gravel out and they drain very fast.

They have a place in the workout world, they just aren't the be all, end all in footwear.
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Posted: 3/26/2012 5:33:16 AM
I've worn VFFs for two years. Bottom line for foot and back sufferers-these rock. I had fallen arches and still have Morton's Neuromas. The minimalists shoes will not address the neuromas better than VFFs unless they have toe pockets.

I was a size 13 AA most of my life. I am 11.5 WIDE now. My arches are back and my feet are shorter and wider. My knee pain is virtually gone and my lower back is definitely gone (blown knee and bulging L4). I run 3 miles max in my VFFs to train for the USAF PT test. I wear the things everywhere but church (my wife would kill me).
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Posted: 3/26/2012 8:43:08 AM
Has anyone won a race in VFF's? I couldn't find anything on google apart from some AARs from clods that were happy they finished a 5k/10k race.
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Posted: 3/26/2012 9:21:10 AM
Originally Posted By YaNi05:
Has anyone won a race in VFF's? I couldn't find anything on google apart from some AARs from clods that were happy they finished a 5k/10k race.


Doubtful anyone has won any "major" race or it would be plastered on applicable web pages.

I'm certainly a skeptic of VFFs or other uber-minimalist footwear as the primary shoe for serious runners, but I can certainly see a role for them as a training tool. I try to put in a couple runs/week in Brooks "minimalist" Pure Connect.

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Posted: 3/26/2012 9:22:27 AM
I ran a few errands for my wife this weekend. My wife and 9 yr old son were working on a project and my 2 yr old daughter was wanting to get involved. So I took her to the store with me. I sat her in the buggy and she had a bigger sippy cup just filled. I had my toe shoes on and she dropped that thing right on top of my foot. Right on the bone, wow it hurt.

After checking out, there was a Mom and teenage daughter behind me and I heard the girl ask her Mom for a pair cause they were cool. Mom says, "NO! Those things make his feet and him look freaky!"

I turned and looked and saw the personification of trailer park. I said, "Wow lady, I can hear you."
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Posted: 3/26/2012 11:09:33 AM
Originally Posted By trey76:
I've worn VFFs for two years. Bottom line for foot and back sufferers-these rock. I had fallen arches and still have Morton's Neuromas. The minimalists shoes will not address the neuromas better than VFFs unless they have toe pockets.

I was a size 13 AA most of my life. I am 11.5 WIDE now. My arches are back and my feet are shorter and wider. My knee pain is virtually gone and my lower back is definitely gone (blown knee and bulging L4). I run 3 miles max in my VFFs to train for the USAF PT test. I wear the things everywhere but church (my wife would kill me).


Please explain what you mean by this?
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Posted: 3/26/2012 11:28:28 AM
'Water shoes' are far cheaper and give the same results.
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Posted: 3/26/2012 12:08:20 PM
Originally Posted By MarkHatfield:
'Water shoes' are far cheaper and give the same results.


Far cheaper and not the same results at all.
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smithc6
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Posted: 3/26/2012 12:58:54 PM
Originally Posted By stutzcattle:
Originally Posted By MarkHatfield:
'Water shoes' are far cheaper and give the same results.


Far cheaper and not the same results at all.


Why is that? I know a ton of people who have been using minimal shoes for quite some time and have gone to something like that or a cross country flat in order to save money. Theyre all made out of EVA foam, have somewhere around a 4 mil offset from heel to forefoot and no real cushioning system.
"F that guy. F his apathetic old man. F everything he holds dear until it's bleeding from the ass and crying into a pillow." ~Evil_ATF on JustinWB
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